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Is Magic a Placebo?
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CherryAdvocaat
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09:21:03 Jul 18 2008
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Last night I was thinking too much again, so this morning I got up and wrote this in my journal. 'Placebo' mightn't be the right word for it, but it's the closest I could get two minutes after waking up. It's not too long, please give it a read and tell me what your opinion is...

"I was thinking last night before I fell asleep about human potential, with our amazing minds.
We find ourselves able to do things if we firmly believe we can do them, or things will happen to our bodies if we are convinced enough that they will happen. A pill taken as a placebo for example. I give you a harmless sugar pill and later tell you that it was poison... what happens? You begin to feel sick. You panic. Why does your stomache suddenly hurt, you're dizzy, your mouth tastes funny, you feel nauseus, you're convinced that you've been poisoned. The things we tell ourselves make enormous impacts on ourselves and our lives. I could go on about this, but that's not what this article is about.
For centuries people have been making magic. Performing rituals with candles, incense, daggers, herbs, but the most important ingredient has always been belief. Have you ever done a spell and had it fail, because you did not truly believe that it would work, that by performing this spell, you would yield some sort of result?

I think perhaps magical ritual too is a placebo, an action taken that helps us believe that our wills will come to be. We feel like we need confirmation of things before we are certain they will work, and by performing a spell, we feel we have done something... created an action that will cause an effect. But if one was to strip away the candles, incense, daggers and herbs, they are left with a person's will and belief. I think humans have the power to create the effect than any spell would have, without the rituals, but simply by using our minds effectively.

As humans, we are omnipotent. Perhaps not completely, but we are in the sense that there is little limitation in what we can potentially achieve. People believe themselves gifted with various things, like the ability to read minds. I think that in truth, everyone can read minds, but most people have a mental block which prevents them from having enough belief in this that it will actually work. They often feel like they must do something first in order to activate this gift, like meditate, or place a crystal upon the third eye, etc. Activation is not necessary, it merely helps strengthen our belief that it will work. Humans are capable of far more than we think. So perhaps we can all do 'magic', except that it is not magic at all, it is a natural thing within us, part of our own minds, all we have to do is believe in ourselves."

So now what do you think, do you believe that magical ritual is merely a placebo, or an action used to strengthen our belief in our own abilities? Or do you disagree, and say that magical ritual is necessary to provide you with a result due to a supernatural reason?




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Erinyes
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09:33:33 Jul 18 2008
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i think magick is real but belive that the tools used in magick might be placebo to help the mind perform what it normally could not do.



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CherryAdvocaat
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09:35:04 Jul 18 2008
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Exactly what I meant :) The ritual performed and the tools used, and there only to strengthen our belief in our magic working. It is not MAGIC, it is US.



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Jamie
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09:35:46 Jul 18 2008
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I don't think you have to go through all that jazz for it. I think it's your "placebo". The mind is a powerful thing.

I used to believe in magic, but not for awhile now. I realized that it's for those that want to appear powerful to others and for the ego. It seems to be for people that feel they are powerless over events in their life or if they feel people are stepping on them in some way. It helps them scare people into being nice or away, without having to actually confront and take action.

Know what I mean?

To think one has the power to control others or events and the universe is quite an ego trip. The universe has it's plan and we are all a part of it. We are all woven into it and so are all of our actions. If it's meant to be, it will be. You lighting a candle and throwing some runes or bones on a Thursday night, with knots tied on a purple string isn't changing shit.



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Erinyes
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09:36:40 Jul 18 2008
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yes then in that case i agree 100% since we are the one perforining it i think the more advanced one becomes with magic the les physical tools one needs to use magick.



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CherryAdvocaat
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10:37:10 Jul 18 2008
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Exactly, tying knots in string isn't going to change anything. Er... anyone else care to share an opinion, or have I struck such a chord with everyone else that they don't care to argue?



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FacelessUnknown
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11:49:08 Jul 18 2008
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I think your "Placebo Theory" is spot on. Its a scientific approach which hold's alot of water.
My thoughts for those who perform magic is that belife and objects go hand in hand. I suppose its like...Putting your energy into the object in order for an effect to be served.
They've always said that human's only use 10% of there mind's - There are various reasons to why this is, but i wont be going there on this thread. Anyway, if only 10% is being used, it begs the question - What else are we capible of? I



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FacelessUnknown
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11:51:29 Jul 18 2008
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I think the possiblities are endless.
I guess the obvious theory to how david blane could go so long without food would be his belife that he could.
notice how if you've ever had a paper cut, it doesnt start to hurt until yu notice its there?

Anyway, great thread & theory. :)



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HellHathWings
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12:50:35 Jul 18 2008
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magic is very real, you don't have to see it as magic, gifts, blessings, etc... you can break it down and call it other things to make it more comfortable to you but it is still magic



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DravenG
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13:07:15 Jul 18 2008
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well, as far as the things we use in ritual and spells, they are to assist us, no different then catholics or other religions lighting candles in prayer, bearing a cross or other religious charms, it is all in the power that you your self believe it holds. Like for example the bingo fanatics that have all their luck trolls and luck things on the table they 100 % beleive that it bring them luck, no different if i pick up a rock and place it in my pocket because i believe it to be lucky. Well just my two cents.



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Infernalmage
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13:12:39 Jul 18 2008
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Sure...Magic is a placebo. Great for entertaining small children and large audiences.


Magick is a placebo just like electricity.

Its not real in the general term we use to describe the currents....but it sure hurts when you stick a fork in the electrical socket.

It has its own levels of "current".



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mysticwinds
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13:34:28 Jul 18 2008
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To me magic is just a prayer with prompts to keep the mind concentrated on their purpose of their purpose.

The Chinese use incense because they believe it would carry their prayer higher.



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Erinyes
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13:43:32 Jul 18 2008
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i think whatever you belief may be and what you use be it a prayer,spell chant or whatever if you believe in it then that will work for you,what may work for you may not work for someone else.



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borked
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13:49:09 Jul 18 2008
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You are looking in the wrong place.. the cure was in the words not in the pill. All people know this (except Jehovah's witnesses).


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (John 1:1)


And for you Wicca, please replace 'God' with 'Elohim' (since you have the gods rather than God).



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Erinyes
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13:52:08 Jul 18 2008
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lol its always good to have a little open mindness even if you disagree with a certian belief,i for one do not always agree with other beliefe but am open to hear how they perceive things,you just never know when you will find needed knowledge be it in a book or in the woods.



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Infernalmage
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13:56:32 Jul 18 2008
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HAHAHA you almost made your point

"in the begining there was LOGOs (greek for word, which was translated into the word of god")


But to have a word is to have frequencies and sound. So in the begining there was a current....:P



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Lightningsking
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13:56:42 Jul 18 2008
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I believe magic is real just the tools that are used do not really need to be used, they are mainly for effect



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RaggedyAndy
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14:26:57 Jul 18 2008
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For neopagans who take a purely psychological approach to witchcraft, the power of a ritual is in the way its symbolism speaks to the unconscious mind. Psychology and medical research have shown that beliefs have an effect on one's perception of reality, and that beliefs and perception appear to effect behaviorial and other quantifiable physical changes; one well known example is the placebo effect.

Reference:

Witchcraft - Theories of Neopagan witchcraft



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Jesuis
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14:51:55 Jul 18 2008
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I'm going to go one step further, Infernal, and point out that there is another translation of the Greek word, and is equivalent to the Hebrew word it was translated from.

Logos can also mean "formula". So what we have is the "formula of God" creating the world. Elohim is a compilation of God and Goddess - or a representation of the Universal Principle, being male and female, or the law of opposites. Thus, the Logos of Elohim is actually the Formula of the Universal Principle.

As for a placebo, it is not a placebo to perform ritual. The results to the practitioner may be a bit misguided, but the ritual can be effective (like you said) if the practitioner believes enough.

The ritual is, or should be, simply allegory to hammer home the importance of whatever "spell" the practitioner is trying to accomplish. This is why Alchemists use so many veiled diagrams and carvings. It is similar for Freemasonry. The more one contemplates and meditates on the meanings of the ritual, the more real and effective its truths are.

That's not to say that I believe someone can defy the laws of physics (defined or otherwise). But the original purpose of magic was to discover the secrets of the Universe, thereby bringing us more in tune with it. This deals a bit more with the history of the actual word magic, and so it may not stay on topic in this thread.



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DjMMp
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16:20:44 Jul 18 2008
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I could be. Kind of like tarot cards or something. You look for any possible reason to think that that's what the person was talking about. Just to get a sort of enlightenment.
I had a friend of mine that was a psychic say that I was going to be with XTCraver the rest of my life and that we would have a child. If that comes true, then I know that it wouldn't just a placebo.



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dabbler
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03:11:03 Jul 19 2008
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Well stated. I would say that is fuzzy logic on display. Yet the sensationalist will have nothing of such therum. They want that claim of being able to manipulate mystic forces. yet it seems that all the things they perform are based upon ice breakers from parlor games, something that any body can learn to do, somethings we already do.



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LivNdedGirl
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03:20:05 Jul 19 2008
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yes i believe the tools we use symbolize certain things that are not always tangable and by the use of said tool it makes it more real to us and as far as ritual it is in all of us ,,,even if you dont realize it going to bed at a certain time, eating certain foods on certain days, woirship to god on sunday or a stick everyday we all have the need to believe in something and what we do makes us stronger in our belief what ever it may be



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divinemisskat
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08:18:54 Jul 19 2008
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Magical energies are all around us at all times...it is simply up to us how to interpret and use that energy. We ALL have the potential but only a chosen few have been able to cast aside their mortal limitations and utilize this energy in productive (and sometimes evil/immoral) ways.



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SatanKimi17
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10:57:05 Jul 19 2008
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i can see how it would be, its to make us belive something to happen.



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BRONZe
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11:10:46 Jul 19 2008
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I believe that mind is a wonderful thing and we do not fully underdstand all of its capability as yet I think we still have a lot to learn about it



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Sinora
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12:50:17 Jul 19 2008
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On one level I look at all forms of ritual be they used in magic or religion ( one and the same thing ? ) as stabilisers on a childs bike.



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Erinyes
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13:24:11 Jul 19 2008
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that is great,i think especilly for the beginners just starting out but i think for the advanced there comes a time where such tools can hold one back in their practice because magick is much more than in the physical,i think sometimes we unknowingly get stuck in a comfort zone in what we are used to doing to realize that our mind itself is all we need and not tricycle wheels or so to say.



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Erinyes
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21:06:38 Jul 20 2008
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that is true,we do create...
i believe magick to be first in thought in having a idea then in the physical to a realization and with focus it can be acomplished.



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Vespers
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I agree with the original post. I think that we, as humans, are capable of more than we realize, and that through our will and positive thinking, we can do much more than we realize.

I also feel & agree that in regards to spells, magic, etc. that the usage of ritual items, tools, herbs, and so on are simply there to help the belief - like a focal point in a sense, to concretate upon. However, I don't personally find them to be necessary to achieve whatever it is a person is attempting to do. But with people who may not feel its all a part of the natural world, or that the mind alone can't achieve the same results, ritual items have a point.

Good post. :)



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DeadlyXDesire
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21:31:25 Jul 20 2008
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In reference to the magic that is being discussed here I believe that the tools themselves are not what produces the end result but help to concentrate on the task at hand...I wouldn't necessarily compare it to a placebo because the tools are there to aid and assist in the ritual and are not used to fool the mind.



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Oceanne
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21:46:45 Jul 20 2008
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I would really like to suggest that any of you who are serious about learning about this ,take a look at what the Pineal gland does in regards to DMT.



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Oceanne
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What a ritual does,I believe, is cause the gland to produce DMT in those who are not able to spontaneously cause the gland to do so.



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Oceanne
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21:54:24 Jul 20 2008
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postscript: The gland can be coaxed into producing DMT via resonance..

you decide



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DeadlyXDesire
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22:03:56 Jul 20 2008
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Oceanne..can you elaborate on what DMT is and what it does?



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gregorio
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23:14:30 Jul 20 2008
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well do not feel magick is a placebo, nor do I believe that it is an abosulte neccessity to complete a magical / spell task. I feel if you believe then anything is possible with or without the magic. Just an opinion ..



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Oceanne
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00:18:13 Jul 21 2008
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Sure DD..but I pulled this from my journal because it explains what DMT is better than I ever could....



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Oceanne
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This also makes one wonder ,because of another thread,if this could pretain to ghosts too...



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Veela
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I agree with Jamie's point of somethings are going to happen no matter what we do...But I also believe that we do that a certain amount of power that we can do with our mind, and it is those who are more "tuned in" or that have the belief that it will happen, that they will achieve the better results!
Mindless repeating of words mean nothing!



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XxSkyexX
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01:09:30 Jul 21 2008
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I do not feel it is a placebo . I feel things are gonna happen no mater what you believe or do not believe in.. just the way it is . my opinion.



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Oceanne
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01:38:21 Jul 21 2008
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"I feel things are gonna happen no mater what you believe or do not believe in"

Yes,it really is.The energy will cause it to work,whether you think so or not.



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Profane
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Yes, I think that magic does carry a sort of placebo effect.

The power of thought is what separates us from every other thing on the planet. It really does rule our lives. Like it or not, other's opinions of you matter to you. Like it or not, no form of government can gain power without a belief or faith in it. Like it or not, what you think has a profound impact on the world around you. Thoughts are things. Things that come about through that thought that are a rarity are dubbed magic.



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Oceanne
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15:48:43 Jul 21 2008
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Also here is a link DD ...

http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/pickover/pc/dmt.html



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vampyregoddess74
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16:52:50 Jul 21 2008
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i know magick is real and the tools we use in magick are to help us focus more on our intentions



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lavisbre
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Hi cherry advocaat
The question should be is Placebo a magic lol
Im sorry tying a knot in string is not magic just book shelf propaganda pulp.
In reality you had to invoke a spirit to help you and bind it to an object like a doll with pins or string in knots till the deed was done.

Now voodoo is linked to the doll n pins and wiccans silly books tie a knot in the string…. So sad to see half spells in books and forgotten rituals, like backing a cake with no flower or eggs lol
So no real magic is not a placebo but placebos seem to work like magic lol



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Erinyes
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05:42:27 Jul 23 2008
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i do find that some confuse magic with magick one being sleight of hand for entertainment and the other be of the arts such as wicca etc..etc..

i think that everything has a safety net and why not in magic(k)?
if it helps then by all means use it.



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Daileus
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I believe that magic is a gift that some have and some don't. I think that what gives power to rituals is our faith that it will work. I believe it's somewhat a placebo, but supernatural at the same time. Maybe some people have such a powerful mind that when they perform magic, it isn't really magic. But a telepathic ability. For some things such as some medicines and remedies, I believe it is a placebo. An example is placing a bar of soap at the foot of your bed to cure restless leg syndrome.



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Jamie
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09:49:56 Aug 18 2008
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Definitely a placebo.



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Languor
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09:54:56 Aug 18 2008
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anything possible these days. we just need to spend the time in getting it to work



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DeMONic314
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18:03:18 Aug 18 2008
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As I told the Jehovah's witnesses that came to my door last Saturday... anything touched by humans is inherently flawed and cannot be believed.



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dabbler
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22:02:48 Aug 18 2008
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Blunt .. Very Blunt.. I am interested in how they reacted to that?



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Daileus
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09:49:41 Aug 19 2008
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Yes me too. he makes a very good point indeed.


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CherryAdvocaat
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10:07:45 Aug 19 2008
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Cripes I made this thread ages ago, but I still reckon what I said was true.
I've since stopped believing in the necessity for herbs, tools, candles of particular colours, and strings of certain lengths. I think it's nice for people to still use these things, because mainly how each things is supposed to represent or correspond with something else, I think it's nice to continue their use for tradition's sake... but it is not required, because it just helps us believe. Makes the user think that the magic is coming from somewhere else (energies in the air or something) instead of from within them.



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CrazyOne
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11:21:39 Aug 19 2008
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i think it depends on the persons way of thinking.
pluse the tools thats used i think people use them as a symbol of the act.



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DeMONic314
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14:34:48 Aug 19 2008
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They never react too well when I refer to the bible as Hebrew Mythology. When they push thir watch tower on me, I usually return to the door with one of my Astrophysics textbooks from college and prove to them that a supreme being that would create a universe as vast and wonderous as ours does not speak in English, Hebrew, Aramaic or what have you. God's programming language for the universe is mathematics. Calculus works whether us retarded monkeys are around or not.

I try not to lay it on too thick though, belief systems are delicate things. If someones delusion makes them happy then who am I to judge? Ignorance truly is bliss.

Blessed be or something around here right? :-)



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Daeva
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18:13:32 Aug 19 2008
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I believe your ideas on the placebo affect which isn’t a new one is probably right on. The thing is we sabotage ourselves by our thoughts. If you look throughout history we are told to be careful about our thoughts. Even in certain religions this is mentioned, to watch what we think. We are creators and our thoughts are the impetus for what we create. I think we get bad results due to our thoughts. Especially from those who don’t believe we create anything by just dwelling on them and in large numbers we create chaos. It isn’t a matter of whether you believe it is just a fact that has been preached by many for centuries including one main luminary out of Christianity.

Some things work as a natural process it would seem but without the tools and I don’t think that means spells, candles, knives and what have you…they are only focal points and ritual, nothing major happens. You get those little things we take for granted like you think of someone you haven’t seen for a long time and voila they call you or you forgot to get something from the store and your husband goes shopping and brings home what you needed. Is this magick? You could almost say some of the tools are a crutch for the mind. Those that follow chaos methods believe anything is possible. They are big believers. It is the whole underlying premise of the system. So…why do some believe these things? Why do they seem to fall into the occult/metaphysical lifestyle while others do not? Although I hate that it gets labeled as such. Some even do this after leaving home. What is it that opens them up to these possibilities? Perhaps it is a fascination with the unknown? Could it be making new friends? Personal philosophies vary greatly within the scope of humanity and is this perception coming from the brain or the programming we get from society? Hence, brainwashing? I know studies have shown that we are hardwired in the brain to believe there is something beyond ourselves. Some call this “God” and others look at it more scientifically.

Perhaps our thoughts connect to whatever this is, this creative force and it is this connection that actually affects the outcome of something by prayer, chants or a magickal working. A pastor in the desert of Southern California had a mathematician do the numbers in regard to creative force or evolution. I heard him speak and the numbers were astronomical toward some sort of intelligence behind creation. What that is no one can conclusively say. We as humans are all about belief. Everything we do is to do with that and sometimes it is these thoughts that put up barriers to anything we might accomplish.

The battle between belief as opposed to a scientific method has raged for centuries. We are stuck in our “see it to believe it” mode. We aren’t truly concrete but our mind believes we are because we are dense enough we can see our bodies, feel them and smell them. Our sensory areas tell us we exist and are physically here. If our sensory does not come into play most of us are skeptical. They also know the brain is fully functional like any other organ in the body. We just or most of us don’t know how to use it to create. I think the placebo puts us into an area that one can call belief to make some of these things manifest themselves. It is the impetus. Oh the things man could accomplish I believe if they let go and were open to their full potential. Instead most are on the negative side bickering over religion, politics, races and even what clothes to wear for a function. How can we be open to anything with our mind dwelling upon all these mundane thoughts? This placebo affect gives us a big jolt.








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20:54:15 Aug 19 2008
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Ive never known for magic to be a placebo



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dabbler
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22:32:13 Aug 19 2008
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Once the line is crossed from ritual application, to strictly disown those that practice in less complex beliefs, that are not dictator like, they become targets for those that insist that you can not be devoted, unless you are devoted as they are.. splinter groups are started on something as basic as how to take a sacrament.. and how to prepare, or what reqirements there are to take the sacrament..



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CherryAdvocaat
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23:12:17 Aug 19 2008
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Thank-you Mollidew :) Yes man could achieve so much more if his mind weren't clogged up with the mundane.



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Joannachronism
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18:55:43 Aug 20 2008
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I agree so much. I've always struggled with attempts at magick unless I have the ritual perfected, because if it isn't, I can't concentrate with debating with myself about how it won't work. What you say about placebos makes perfect sense. We always have the potential to do things, we just need to believe in them first.



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Trinity666
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21:01:25 Aug 20 2008
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yea i too would say that magic is a placebo



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shadowofmystry
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21:03:37 Aug 20 2008
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I think magic is real.But not like david copperfield stuff.I think that we get strenghth when we learn to perform a ritual or any kind of out of the ordinary action.Then you start to learn to perfect on what you are capable and you build on it from there.


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XxBlueBloodxX
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23:03:08 Aug 20 2008
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I do believe that magic is real but there is alot of fake magic out there



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Lycan3
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23:46:20 Aug 20 2008
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it is more of a action, not jsut a placebo, it is a belief we can do things no other human can do



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dabbler
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03:44:00 Aug 21 2008
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Magic is real? In actual matter? Some magic is fake? As in performed, to produce an effect that appears in such a manner to interpitation of the observer. Where one sees a person sawed in half, another sees engineering.



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CherryAdvocaat
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09:46:25 Aug 21 2008
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Lol. Aye, but we're not talking about sawing people in half and pulling rabbits out of hats. We're talking about the results produced from witchcraft, and whether the tools of ritual are required, or purely our belief in our own ability to produce the 'magical' effect.



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LadyDarkRayne
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15:12:37 Aug 31 2008
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One man's "magic" is another man's engineering. "Supernatural" is a null word.



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CherryAdvocaat
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16:37:04 Aug 31 2008
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Hmm yeah but again that's not quite what this thread's about.



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DarkAitka
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09:16:29 Sep 09 2008
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I agree it can tune up with any magic everything is use to bring your desire purpose



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CherryAdvocaat
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10:28:03 Sep 09 2008
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Thanks to all but I think it's time I closed this thread because it's stopped being the 'big well thought out answer' thread that it's meant to be.

If you'd like to discuss it further then CLICK HERE to do so in my journal, cheers :)



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• • • • THIS THREAD IS CLOSED • • • •
•  Closed by CherryAdvocaat on Sep 09 2008  •

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