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LovelyXDEATH35
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21:30:59 Sep 08 2008
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I have heard of this once but i was just making sure i wasn't the only one.

i can sense spirits energy, i cant see them or hear them but i know when they are around me. its hard to explain like just energy the shape of a person and i can feel them moving i don't know if that helps but I'm not here to talk about that but when one is near me my nose starts to burn and gets stuffed up and i cant breath

i have heard of this before with different people, it can be eyes watering, itching, or even emotional feeling

so i was wondering if you could share your feelings and experiences on this subject




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Beastt17
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21:41:33 Sep 08 2008
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It sounds like an allergic response; most likely to some kind of pollen or dust. What makes you think it's spiritual?



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mysticwinds
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21:58:47 Sep 08 2008
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Some mediums encounter a coughing when the Spirit contacts them and this is to help describe to the loved one, how they may of died. Choking also etc.

I guess it would depend on how sensitive you are to the energy force of the spirits around you.



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LovelyXDEATH35
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22:05:38 Sep 08 2008
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its not allergies i dont have allergies

and because i can feel them near me almost touching me



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Beastt17
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22:06:52 Sep 08 2008
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mysticwinds,

When was it confirmed that anyone, a medium or otherwise, has ever contacted a spirit? I mean, don't we need to confirm that before we go building on it with further unevidenced assertions?



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dabbler
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22:12:37 Sep 08 2008
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Old building are stuffy. Have you checked your results with any other people that claim to have the same ability? I would reason that if two people that claim to be gifted went through an area.. they claim has paranormal activity, then their should be a common response.. yet for this to be "accurate" they would need to avoid sharing info.



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Beastt17
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22:13:49 Sep 08 2008
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LovelyXDEATH35,

If a person isn't capable of utilizing the insulin their body produces and has to inject insulin, even if they tell you they don't have diabetes, they still do. If you're suffering allergy symptoms then you probably have allergies. You're describing allergy symptoms.

People who claim to "feel" a presence, a loved one, a spirit, a ghost, the presence of water, the effect of the planets, etc., have been tested to death. What a person "feels" subjectively has a lot to do with what they believe and very rarely has anything to do with reality unless the feeling is confirmable via objective means. When all objective evidence is absent, it's your mind running away with your rationality.



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Oceanne
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22:16:29 Sep 08 2008
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A while ago while I was doing research on Water tape and electromegnetic sensitivity etc...,I came across something to this effect.I am posting links to several sites that might possibly help.

http://www.lymebook.com/electromagnetic-field-sensitivity-emf

http://www.icems.eu/benevento_resolution.htm

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-437302/Allergic-electricity.html

http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/definitions-electromagnetic.htm



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Oceanne
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22:22:44 Sep 08 2008
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http://74.125.45.104/search?q=cache:4_MBgvhr2VUJ:www.healthtrackingassistant.com/DH/Savely%2520Yurkovsky.pdf+allergic+reactions+to+electromagnetics&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=20&gl=us

And this one is a must read if you have some concerns about your seemilgly paranormal reaction..
http://www.naturalmatters.net/article.asp?article=2965&cat=247



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Oceanne
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22:28:56 Sep 08 2008
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Something I might mention is that is the major concences appears to be that ghosts are electromagnetic.If that is the case,then they arent paranormal at all,but a natural occurance and there have been alot of findings that proove that people can suffer a whole string of ailments caused from it.Even if they do not suffer from other allergies.



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LovelyXDEATH35
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22:35:20 Sep 08 2008
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hmm i suppose so, i never realized how close the symtoms are to allergy symptoms but its so random so out of the blue, but i suppose that you could be right



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dabbler
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22:39:58 Sep 08 2008
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You heard? From where, are you the only one that heard this, what is it you heard, there is no link to read about others that have this experience.



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Oceanne
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22:48:12 Sep 08 2008
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No Dab,actually she isnt the only one who has heard accounts of peeps exibiting these types of symptoms.And when I was hot and heavy into my sound research ,resonance and its use in weaponry,healing etc...I found quite a bit on it really.Those links there are only a very small portion of what I have on this subject.It is no secret that peeps suffer all kinds of things when exposed to electromatgnetics,microwaves and the like.



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Oceanne
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22:52:45 Sep 08 2008
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LovelyDEATH,thats the way it works ,suddenly and seemingly out of the blue.if you are someplace and there is a sudden shift in the eletromagnetics around you,my bet is that you are very sensitive to these shifts and it you experience the symptoms you do.



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dabbler
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22:55:09 Sep 08 2008
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So how are Allergies ruled out of the equation? How about other factors?



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LovelyXDEATH35
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22:59:02 Sep 08 2008
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i have friends that are paranormally sound maybe even more than me they experience it.

but i mean it the middle of the night i can sense something standing over my i was fine before and my nose begans to burn like fire and its hard to breathe and the presence leaves and i'm fine

but there are a lot of people out there who have had paranormal sightings and experiences now you can argue the fact that the paranormal is real, and i will not argue back for you have the right to believe in what you want but seeing is believing and science can't solve everything



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Oceanne
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23:00:57 Sep 08 2008
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They arent ruled out as far as Im concerned,but what I am proposing,that if she has no known allergies,and it turns out that she really has none to dust,dankness,mold or whatever( which incidently, almost everyone will experience those exact symptoms when in close proximity to some molds) then it is a good chance that she could be hypersensitive to EMF.



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Oceanne
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23:10:31 Sep 08 2008
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Sounds like you and your friends have experienced Atonia as well.And yes,it is true that science cannot explain everything...yet,but trust me,there is a whole lot it can and does explain.And I know that you are dead set on believeing that all this this stuff is "paranormal" but Im here to tell you from research and experience that more often than not,these activities are due to natural processes of the planet and universe.Some even man induced and bodily functions.But hey,whats so wrong about that? Only goes to show that we live in a place that is fantastic beyond belief.And not only,but in my book it actually lends credence that these things actually happen and are not just all products of imagination.And simply because science can eliminate many things that have been dubbed paranormal and account them as something other than that,it doesnt mean that it is any less wonderful.



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Oceanne
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23:17:30 Sep 08 2008
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"i have friends that are paranormally sound maybe even more than me they experience it."

Please claify?
And if I answer in light of the way I read it,Im sorry but you might consider your friends "paranormally" sound,and I wont argue that,and of course,everyone is entitled to their beliefs but seriously, just maybe they might want to look into a little about how this planet and our universe functions? Just a suggestion.One big argument I hear many present is "Dont be so close minded" well,I gotta say,because of their misconception of what science truely is,they are normally the very ones who have closed their minds to answers or possible answeers right in front of their faces. .So its a matter of balance really.



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LovelyXDEATH35
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23:28:36 Sep 08 2008
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exactly oceanne i mean this world is to full of close minded people

but i guess i worded that wrong i couldnt think of the word...

but they are more sensitive when it comes to paranormal even more so then me, one of my friends she claims to be able to see them more clearer than i and almost i dont want to say communicate but can kind of pick up things from the spirts like past life



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CryingDutchess
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23:43:10 Sep 08 2008
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Well, for starters, I have to say some of you are being a little rough on the author of this thread -- and that is saying a LOT coming from the likes of me...

Moving along, could be allergies, sure! Mold, dust, bacteria -- all to be found, especially in old buildings, etc. Since there is no real scientific litmus test to say "hey, you have the Power!" try a litmus test of your own and deduce a logical conclusion. If you know what your allergies are and how they feel when they hit (most of usually do...) and you find yourself experiencing things you shouldn't be in an environment then maybe you are hyper-sensitive to something. I didn't say you are a medium, but there is no reason why some people are more sensitive to certain things more than others.

Since there is no discernable proof one way or the other, I see no reason to rain on a possibly psychic parade *grin*


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LovelyXDEATH35
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00:11:25 Sep 09 2008
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so be it i was just curious about it because of what i have experienced whether i am a medium or not i know what i feel and i no that i dont have allergies... i dont think allergies can last for a few minutes, i have no other allergie symptoms except for burning nose so to be honest i really dont know i just know i experience it my few of my friends experience it and a show called psychic kids on A&E (i know its tv thats why i dont use it as a legitament source) where a kid claimed his eyes watered as well everytime a "presence "was near. and i found it strange that they were similar, and so i though that it wasn't a small occurance i thought maybe there were more people that could better explain it all to me with similar symptoms as well but i suppose im just getting judged



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CryingDutchess
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00:24:39 Sep 09 2008
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Please don't feel judged by your thread -- it is perfectly legit. Occasionally some members will bust chops and I can only suggest ignoring them. It's not as if they are offering anything toward your topic, right? Don't be discouraged to ask anything here -- all the topics are based on the "UNKNOWN". *grin* Okay? Thread away!


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CherryAdvocaat
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00:26:18 Sep 09 2008
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I've heard of similar cases before, and I know it is common to sense the presence of a spirit. But seriously, you may say you don't have any, but what you described definitely sounds like an allergy or fever.



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Oceanne
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00:28:37 Sep 09 2008
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Let me make somthing clear,you arent gettting judged.But would I would like you to know is,that there are alot of peeps who experience the very thing you have.And there are alot of things that can cause it.These very things that you describe are being studied more and more,some,being almost impossible to study because their occurance is so sporadic.But none the less,We simply want to present these things to you,so you can go through the process of elimination and come to some sortof conclusion.No one has said you arent a medium,but ask yourself what is in fact a medium? What,in fact are ghosts and the like?Dont shy away because you dont see answers here that coincide with what you have believed or that you want to see right away..We all want to believe these things are all gifts that make us special or different from others.And sometimes,that desire clouds our view about things that are not just gifts to some,but gifts to all mankind.And a part of the wonderful world we live in called Earth.



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LovelyXDEATH35
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00:36:44 Sep 09 2008
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i completely understand that, and when it happens next i will pay closer attention to my surroundings whats around and what things could trigger allergies



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Veela
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01:54:46 Sep 09 2008
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If the person who open the thread is constantly getting the same symptoms when they think they can feel a presents, couldn't the symptoms that they are getting be something the spirit may have suffered from when it was alive?



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DarkAngelsCurse
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02:30:39 Sep 09 2008
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Maybe, if the spirit died of pneumonia or some awful illness..



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dabbler
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03:48:50 Sep 09 2008
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Oceana I am in that camp as well. If it is testimony you are wanting to share with others in this thread, then stating so will thin out the skeptics. Other wise there will be those that read your post as is, and will help you with their field of understanding, I would suggest a poll as well if some one in your coven helped you word your thread well.. physical concerns with paranormal activity is a topic that intrest me in a sense actually. I hope you hear from someone who shares this and has learned to "cope with it in some way.. perhaps with a dicipline.



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Oceanne
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04:27:51 Sep 09 2008
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"i completely understand that, and when it happens next i will pay closer attention to my surroundings whats around and what things could trigger allergies"

I know I would.Think about it,I mean wouldnt you rather at least try to look at it closely ,and collect evidence that would either debink it or lend credence to it? Or just follow blindly in hope that its real simply because someone says it is so.



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Oceanne
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06:35:42 Sep 09 2008
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"physical concerns with paranormal activity is a topic that intrest me in a sense actually"


You and me both Dab.Because when I find things about ghosts majick or other stuff like that which have solid physical properties,many times,instead of shooting it down, it does the quite the opposite.It makes me go hmm,well? It might not be exactly what I was looking for or even hoping for,but at least it then becomes real,and therefore makes it all the more possible.To me,thats real majick.



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Beastt17
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10:18:28 Sep 09 2008
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If ghosts emit EMF and it's the EMF that causes the allergy-like symptoms, then shouldn't she experience the same kind of symptoms everytime she drives under a set of power lines or past a broadcasting radio station?



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mysticwinds
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13:29:40 Sep 09 2008
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I have only stated what I have seen others with mediun abilities went through. As myself. There are many explainations for what she maybe experiencing.

I voiced my thoughts through what I have seen and what I have experienced. I have encountered many mediums from New York to other cities far from me. People who had never encountered me until that day we met.

I am doing a research on mediums.

As dabbler has quite opened my mind to possible theories in his past post.

So if my thought has offended someone...I think with a open-mind.

Mold of course especially black mold that can be hidden within the walls of a home can cause much sickness. My niece lived in a home that had black mold when it was flooded years ago before she bought it. She had sickness of severe headaches and upset of the stomach.
It can effect people in different ways.

But she maybe a sensitive. I look at things with a open-mind and my experiences.



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Oceanne
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18:15:51 Sep 09 2008
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HUh? MysticWinds,as far as I have ever see,you have never offended anyone,especially not me.I happen to love your imput.
My open mind statement wasnt meant for anyone in paticular,but more towards the lines of not accepting different lines of thought or evidence that might lead to a conclusion other than one wants to hear or believe.And please always remember that when I present something,it might not be what I think it is,but rather , a possibility.I like to look at all sides if I can.

"If ghosts emit EMF and it's the EMF that causes the allergy-like symptoms, then shouldn't she experience the same kind of symptoms everytime she drives under a set of power lines or past a broadcasting radio station?"

Good point Beast,and I was thinking about that,and I would have to say not necessarily.Fluids in the body,ie salts and minerals fluxuate and it could be something as simple as maybe eating alot of salt that day or drinking a ton of water etc...



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WickedWhisper
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18:38:48 Sep 09 2008
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Another possiblity is if the EMF of the 'spirt' is on another frequency than the power lines or station, therefore not reacting to all forms of EMF, just particular one's....not that i'm an expert.



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Oceanne
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18:41:14 Sep 09 2008
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Expert or no,I happen to agree completely.I am looking thru stuff about it right now to post.



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WickedWhisper
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18:49:00 Sep 09 2008
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Great, it will be helpfull to know if there are EMF differences for future reference:)



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Oceanne
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18:59:46 Sep 09 2008
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Have you ever heard of Dirty electric? Im gathering up some things to help explain.



The emf spectrum..



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Oceanne
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19:59:08 Sep 09 2008
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This explains a little on how it can affect us.And also mentions some frequencies.
http://www.feb.se/ARTICLES/unsafe.html

Btw,the nose and ears can feel very warm and itchy during strong exposures of emf.Not to mention watering eyes .All of her symptoms have been listed as some of the side effects.



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Oceanne
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20:07:51 Sep 09 2008
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Anyway,here are some links if interested..All in all,it might not be what is going on,just something to consider I think.

http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/radiofrequencyradiation/exposure.html

http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/radiofrequencyradiation/healtheffects.html



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Beastt17
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21:35:32 Sep 09 2008
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Oceanne,

Re: Good point Beast,and I was thinking about that,and I would have to say not necessarily.Fluids in the body,ie salts and minerals fluxuate and it could be something as simple as maybe eating alot of salt that day or drinking a ton of water etc...

I think we have a problem of missing evidence on both fronts. No sign of allergy symptoms when in proximity to known EMF zones and no sign of EMF emitted by ghosts/spirits.

While one's electrolyte levels do fluctuate, the idea that they would often be at the proper balance to receive EMF from spirits/ghosts and yet never or rarely be in balance to receive EMF from standard bands, (power transmission lines, radio stations, microwave towers, etc.), seems highly unlikely. When you begin to look into the standard range of electrolyte levels, the fluctuation range is fairly small. That's what drinks like Gatorade and Powerade are all about. The body is very sensitive to large fluctuations to electrolyte levels and takes great pains to avoid them. That's why when you're dehydrated from being out in the sun all day and finally get to a good source of water, it feels like it's just sitting in the pit of your stomach. That's exactly what is happening. The water would serve to dilute your electrolyte levels so the body retains it in the digestive tract until it can draw enough electrolytes from the circulatory system, into the digestive system, to create a balance. Only then will the water you drank transfer to the circulatory system where it is needed. Drinking an electrolyte-balanced drink like Gatorade eliminates that problem and allows the body to readily accept the hydrating fluids.

If ghosts or spirits produce EMF, then all we should need to detect them would be a frequency counter or even a radio receiver with an open receiving band or a scanner. So far as I'm aware, no one has ever confirmed their existence so this seems to me to be highly unlikely.

We also have the same problem we discussed in another thread concerning supposed non-physical entities manifesting through physical means such as the emission or reflection of photons and, in this case, the emission of EMF which is still a force purely in the physical realm. Nothing outside of the physical has ever been confirmed so it's understandable that people attempt to utilize the physical when discussing the non-physical. It's like trying to grasp the quantum world while living in the Newtonian world. It can be done but it requires study and some precise evidence. And where evidence is concerned, paranormal claims always seem to be resting on little more than repeated assertion. The evidence just isn't there.



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LovelyXDEATH35
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21:40:32 Sep 09 2008
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thank you no ones imputs are offending i unfortunately have a bad habit for going over board to support my oppions and i am sorry i may have appeared that i overracted, everyones imput has opened my mind to new reasons why i am experiencing this, speacial thanks to oceanne your reasearch on emf has been exceptional now that i understand possible reasons for my burning nose i will now look for: anything that could trigger an allergic reaction (dust, pollen, mold), whether or not i am near anything that can transmitt a lot of emf signals, and pay better attention to all my surrounding overrall



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CryingDutchess
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21:53:01 Sep 09 2008
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Maybe it is not a matter of the evidence not being there, in fact, it is more of a matter of really knowing where to look for it. This is why these conversations become repetitive and makes dead-ends inevitable. The thing is these circles leave no imagination to think outside the box. Am I the one for such suggestions? Nope. My level of interest in the subject doesn't compel me to think outside the box enough. I wish it did.


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Oceanne
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22:20:15 Sep 09 2008
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Only thing I an suggest about the lack of symptoms when under or near power lines and such is that allergies can be on and off .Take for instance someone is allergic to wheat,but not allergic to all types of wheat.
Same thing might apply here.

CryingD, I had to laugh when I read your post,because I swear,I had just been thinking of asking if there might have been one of those Airwick things in the house..you know the automatic kind?
And worse,was wondering about filliings..Out of the box? No.just plain out there.
ewboi.



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dabbler
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22:56:46 Sep 09 2008
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I do have that think out side the box (Creativly, and for entertaining reasons, example Fiction.) yet the hard line spiritualist, and paranormal crowd are invested in the Biz that has developed over years. Founded on research obtained from so called demonstrations that have since been exposed as trick performance. These exposures done not only by people outside their field but from inside their field as well.

It is common for so called Spiritualist to dismiss peoples request for evidence, yet when some one makes a counter point about a topic they are ready and do ask for evidence to support the counter point. I haave heard the "You cannot prove it does not exist ." so much It is becoming like all other religions that Spiritualist seek to be an alternative to. Yet there are never any replies to what application is there for Spiritualist? For Para Normal "evidence"? What long standing matter facing human kind will advance because of such research?



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Beastt17
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23:01:39 Sep 09 2008
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CryingDutchess,

I consider thinking outside of the box to be a wonderful path to discovery. The caution one must exercise is to assure that they're thinking, rather than just crawling out of the box. That means applying logic, reason and evidence to any concept presented or imagined. When one simply latches onto a concept or believes it may explain an experience they had and then refuses to continue to cognitively explore the matter, they're not thinking, they're just outside of the box.

Einstein was a great proponent of utilizing imagination in the exploration of reality. When he failed to do this by simply latching onto concepts offered him by others, simply because they had been accepted for a long time, he came up with things like his "Cosmological Constant" which he later considered to be his greatest blunder. When he insisted that there was an entity of sorts that he called "God", (not at all like the Christian God or any other personal God), he ended up insisting that "God would not play dice with the universe", which again lead him to blunder. It destroyed his final attempts to draft a Theory of Everything, which brought him ridicule and dismissal. Had he let go of such ideas, he could have then embraced quantum mechanics and would have opened the door to drafting a true Theory of Everything )one that didn't require dismissing his own Theory of Relativity). Sometimes you have to let go of assertions contrary to the evidence you've found and just go with the evidence. But first, assure that you're utilizing quality evidence, not just claims or hearsay.

I'm not terribly concerned with where people find their evidence. I'm only concerned with the quality of the evidence (objective counts while subjective is just opinion, not really evidence), and what the evidence can tell us. The evidence has no agenda and it doesn't care what we do or don't believe. It's simply the most honest form of testimony to be had.

Sometimes I suspect people latch onto certain ideas because it provides them with a feeling of mystery and superiority to what they see as dullard scientific types, wading through the methods of the status-quo. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Science and scientists come up with concepts that are so far removed from mainstream that the majority of mainstream, including those who proclaim themselves to be highly spiritual and/or "enlightened", often have a great deal of trouble grasping the concepts if they can grasp them at all.

How many of those who think they're enlightened because they believe ghosts are real can grasp the idea of quantum entanglement, the implications of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, or even Einstein's General Relativity? How many can grasp the idea of a photon moving from point-A to point-B and then being verified to have utilized two different paths simultaneously? Want something truly wondrous and awe-inspiring? Spend a little time trying to grasp the concept of nothing. Can nothing exist within space-time. Is there anything at all, even "nothing", outside of space-time? It's a wondrous world. Absorb it.

If you want fantasy, rent a movie.

Understanding reality takes dedication, work and mental application. Believing the first paranormal claim thrown at you is easy. Believing in contrary to what one may see as the norm, doesn't make one special. In some cases it may just be an easy way for some to convince themselves that they are special when they're not.



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CryingDutchess
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23:14:59 Sep 09 2008
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Dabbler, in the time I have spoken to you, you are one man that DEFINITELY thinks, works and exists outside the box *grin* I actually enjoy how your mind works.

Oceanne -- LOL! If we could get a bunch of household cleaning products, some static electricity, dander, pollen and some other allergens and have an allergy "taste-test" We can use the cemetery and a couple of "haunted" areas and test the the allergens on different subjects. If there is a reaction in the cemetery only with the allergens then ta-dah! Bogus. If it turns out that some people have no reactions to the allergens then ta-dah, again!

By the way, this is why I don't work in CSI... I am way too out there.


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Beastt17
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23:32:34 Sep 09 2008
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CryingDutchess,

I applaud your approach; don't just accept either side, put them both to the test. That's absolutely the right idea.

The only criticism I could apply is that your proposed testing method is a bit loose. What if there is a pollen, dust, ash or toxin present in the graveyard that you haven't gathered for your allergen test?

If there is no reaction in the graveyard, perhaps it's not haunted. (Perhaps no graveyard is). You'd have to check for microwave towers (including cell-phone towers), buried telephone a fiber optic lines, over-head power transmission lines and anything else you could think of. Then the problem would be all of the things we haven't considered.

Doctors have been testing for allergic reactions for patients for years and sometimes they still don't key on on the reactive agent. But since they have the benefit of years of testing and development, I'd suggest that as the first step. As for the graveyard, if you consistently get a reaction there, then suggest it to your doctor. Hopefully, he won't jump to the conclusion that you're reacting to ghosts. But he might decide to collect some samples of dust, plant matter and structural materials from that graveyard against which to test you. And it should really be a double-blind test so that the patient doesn't know what substance is being tested. That helps to rule out subjectively "feeling" symptoms when they don't really exist.

All in all, it's likely the best idea so far in the thread. It requires some dedication and a financial investment, but it is bound to be far more fruitful than all of the input provided by everyone in the thread. It's a great topic for discussion, but we're unlikely to confirm anything without hands-on testing under properly controlled conditions.



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Oceanne
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23:41:42 Sep 09 2008
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I agree Beast,and Crying D,I am soooo there!
Funny thing is,after all that time and investment,it will most likely turn out to be something so simple and obvious it makes our heads spin..
Murphy's law at work.
Hey...would that considered paranormal?



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XSilverxMoonxNightX
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23:45:58 Sep 09 2008
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yeah or it could just be old fashion allergies...

I have had paranormal activity but usually it's just a cold breeze that comes out of no where when the air is off, and when there is no window open :]

then you could have physical contact where one tugs on your clothing or lays a hand on you and their is a burning thats all i'v heard as far as my allergies stirring up well no and I've never heard of anything like that from many of the people i know who I've either experinced paranormal activity with or I've been told they experinced on their own.



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CryingDutchess
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23:48:07 Sep 09 2008
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Beast,

I thoroughly agree with your sentiments, but except the present state of things, by which I mean -- there are no publicly known proven tests for paranormal activity. Short of having an apparition "slime" you while mysteriously playing music from no visible output, I'd have to say that I truly see no other avenues of study than those of remote logic that can somehow yield more than the same useless data. Or could it be that we interpret data from the wrong perspective? I agree -- if I took an old chicken bone and somehow was able to learn about paranormal activity because of it -- I'd have a chicken farm.

The variables here are infinite, especially, with no marker to send anyone in a useful direction. This, sadly, may be the reason so many people see what is not there, and never was.



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Oceanne
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00:17:22 Sep 10 2008
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What troubles me about the whole ghost thing is where are they all? If they are indeed the spirits of wrongful death or unfinished business,there would be so many more.And there isnt.What makes only a few so special that they can suppedly manifest themselves?



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LovelyXDEATH35
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01:08:35 Sep 10 2008
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they are emotional attached to things, they are unable to break away to except they are dead move on



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Oceanne
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01:14:29 Sep 10 2008
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Even so,if it were emotional attatchment,there would be alot more.Everyone is emotionally attatched to something.



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dabbler
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02:58:19 Sep 10 2008
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I had a box once to play with, and I turned it into a shuttle, and flew it to the moon, and when I got to the moon I turned it into a moon base.
Then they told me to think outside the box, I figured who would want to think outside a moon base?


When a person is in an unfamiliar place, and anxious.. they are likely to sweat, get hyper attentive as well. things that can alter our physiology to register micro changes in our environment, I would suggest going to any places you "ghost hunt" during the day before you go to investigate, or do a follow-up investigation, then notice the physical reaction, or lack of.



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Beastt17
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10:39:24 Sep 10 2008
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LovelyXDEATH35,

---

Re: "they are emotional attached to things, they are unable to break away to except they are dead move on"

Ghosts have no emotions. The physical body is the seat of all emotions which are simply imperfections in the workings of a physical brain. Once freed from those imperfections, the non-physical mind is free to function in perfect logical unity. So the idea that they would be emotionally attached to things cannot be true.

Ghosts cannot be held to anything and since they lack emotions, they certainly can't be held to anything by emotions -- something they don't have.

---

Okay. You've presented blind assertions and I've presented blind counter-assertions. Where did this get us? Do you have conclusive evidence that ghosts have an emotional attachment or is this just something you heard, read or reasoned for yourself?

Since there is zero credible evidence upon which to conclude that ghosts actually exist, it's rather pointless to begin assigning things like emotional attachment to them. That's like building a special pool and stocking up on a mermaid's favorite foods before bothering to confirm that mermaids exist.

So what do we know?

We know that allergens exist.

We know that some people suffer allergies.

We know that the symptoms indicated are consistent with allergies.

We know that the existence of ghosts has never been confirmed (not once in all of the tens of thousands of years they've been asserted to exist.)

We know that some people claim that ghosts (which have never been confirmed to exist), can sometimes cause allergy-like symptoms in some people (despite the fact that if ghosts don't exist, they obviously can't cause allergy-like symptoms).

---

So we have a number of known realities which answer the question perfectly and we have a bunch of blind assertions that attempt to answer the question but rely upon nothing but unevidenced assertion.

Which seems more plausible?



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Oceanne
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15:23:02 Sep 10 2008
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"That's like building a special pool and stocking up on a mermaid's favorite foods before bothering to confirm that mermaids exist."


Hey! I resent that remark.I do have a special pool and food and..and treasure!;)

But in all seriousness,perhaps they dont exsist,perhaps they do.It is still fun to talk about,and personally,I dont seek to change peeps mind on them,but rather,present possiblities of things they could be.And really,even if they arent anything tangible,they..or the idea of them, never ceases to instill fear,fascination,awe and most importantly,hope.



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Oceanne
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15:54:59 Sep 10 2008
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I started thinking about the math end of this and thought I might share a little with you all.Yep,its a giant copy and paste job,but quite frankly, Im tired and over the course of the last few days,it is apparent in my writing.So,Ive opted to spare you.
Anyway,its just another way to look at it ..
Enjoy...


Professor Einstein said once that mathematics is the envy of other disciplines. Implied in this was the inevitable and consistent accuracy of mathematics. Statistics is the branch of mathematics that measures probabilities. I will be using very basic mathematical probability theory to show that the information being transmitted to John Edward, the highly gifted American medium, could not be coming by chance.



'COLD READING' - utter rubbish. First I would like to very briefly deal with cold reading because the skeptics are using this as a way out of conceding defeat in positive psi empirical experiments - especially when dealing with gifted psychic John Edward who is my subject for mathematical probability. Prof Ray Hyman, king of the American materialists, who has a longitudinal track record of being anti-psi has prepared a thirteen point guide to 'cold reading.' These are tricks to trap a person into believing that information is being transmitted using extra sensory perception. My view is that applying this thirteen point guide to gifted mediums is utter rubbish and Ray Hyman knows that. There has NEVER been just one instance, when Hyman or any of his experts in cold reading could demonstrate a cold reader being able to get results like John Edward regularly does.

Mathematical probability properly applied is objective, definitive and accurate .To work out simple probability next time you watch John Edward list all the 'hits' - ie, the accurate information initiated by JE himself. I estimate that JE obtains on an average some EIGHT such facts per segment of the show. You have to estimate from each hit what would be the odds in the American population of that information (the 'hit') occurring? For example, when J.E. says that " J … Jos … Josie … yes Josie …" The recipient confirms that she is Josie JE is referring to. Getting the name right - the skeptics give 1 in 15 but the level headed mathematician will give 1:40. And if the name was obscure, something no one ever heard of, then even the conservative statistician will give that one in a 100.

In one of John Edward's CROSSING OVER shows this week- a member of the audience positively confirmed that his 'father used to dress up as a Catholic nun!' How many American (and British) males, married, over 50, with a family, dress up as a Catholic nun - 1 in 100,00? 1 in 300,000, 1 in 400,000 … in 500,000, 1in 1million?

This could NOT be cold reading because all the information was fully initiated by the medium John Edward- with the other 'hits' and other segments in the show initiated by JE. The mathematical probability would be trillions to 1! Translated this means that the information is NOT coming by chance .

Another brilliant 'hit' and ALL information was initiated by J Edward telling the recipient on one of his shows CROSSING OVER that what was coming through from the afterlife was someone over 55 years, male, not gay, married, with children, who dresses as a French maid to promote his business. These are SIX variables on just ONE item!

Again, how many males in the U.S. or Britain would fit into those six variables? What odds would a level headed statistician would give for that? One in 300,000? One in 500,000?
Now you have to remember that one the segment J Edward obtain another 8 hits - the procedure is for the hits to be multiplied by each other: eg 500,000 X 100 X 1000 X 400 etc. You will understand how quickly one obtains the figure of trillions to one that the information being transmitted could not be coming by chance.

To the level headed informed observer, those odds when translated will show that the information has to come from the afterlife the way John Edwards has repeatedly stated it is coming from. So far skeptics have not given a credible alternative explanation for such overwhelming odds of trillions to one. In fact, skeptics have not given ANY alternative explanation at all.

One has to remember that in Arthur Findlay's classic book ON THE EDGE OF THE ETHERIC, he writes that he obtained the services of a noted mathematician who concluded that the odds from some five facts coming by chance in a reading were some trillions to one!

Skeptics may say, well our statistics do not compare with yours. Fair enough, all we have to do is then to agree on probabilities for each 'hit.' Better still, I would suggest that the task be given to some mathematician who has high credibility as an impartial observer, someone who does not embrace psi or scepticism.I would be more than happy to have such an empiricist work out the mathematical probabilities.

I would like to qualify the aforestated: I refer to the work of gifted mediums we can scrutinise ourselelves. Not every medium is a gifted medium. My primary subject is J Edward.

I agree with Prof Albert Einstein that mathematics when properly applied for empirical purposes yields results which are impossible to rebut.

Mathematics is a rather novel but legitimate way of increasing the evidence for the existence of the afterlife - and when added to the twenty three other different areas of objective and empirical evidence I presented will continue to make it impossible for the negatively minded to ignore what other brilliant scientists have conceded : the existence of the afterlife.

-- Victor Zammit (April 2003)

Reprinted with permission from http://www.victorzammit.com



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Oceanne
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16:51:41 Sep 10 2008
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Personally tho,I feel they are resonance somewhere in the infrasound range of maybe 1 to 20hz..but any kind of solid conclusion is a long way off.



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dabbler
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19:00:38 Sep 10 2008
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John Edward is a a Cold reader, and he uses other pretense as well. He lied and has crushed people in his audience with wrong info. He should be brought to trial along with Sylvia Brown, for theft by pretense. If a clinical doctor is wrong hew is sued, and pays malpractice, this is peoples grieving he is F*%#@ with here people. Any bodsy that supports him, leads people to deception plan and simple.



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Oceanne
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19:37:13 Sep 10 2008
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No one here is supporting anyone Dab.Im not going to say one way or another,because I've had my say,as have others,and at this point I think it is moot...but how can you dispute the math?And if there is any math to be found on it,Im going to find it and post it.
And to be honest,Im trying to simply post different information so the OP and others can come to their own conclusions.I think it is a good thread which has caused all of us to really think .
And again,there are crooks in every walk of life and career.
Would you rather I only post things that contribute to skeptisim? Nope,I dont care which side it supports,info is info and everyone has a right to use it as the feel benefits them.



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Beastt17
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20:23:53 Sep 10 2008
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I've recently observed a cold reader in action. He's a skeptic and has learned the skill for the purposes of entertainment. He admits that what he is doing is cold reading but puts on quite a show that seems to mirror the techniques used by many people who proclaim themselves to be psychics. This topic is discussed in the video "Enemies of Reason" with Richard Dawkins.

And if subjects like John Edwards aren't cold reading and one does not believe in ghosts but instead believes they are misunderstood natural phenomena, isn't that a bit of a contradiction? How can John Edwards be other than a cold reader if ghosts/spirits/souls aren't communicating with him?

As for the original topic, I've still not seen one shred of evidence presented which suggests that the experiences reported are the result of other than simple allergies.



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Beastt17
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20:27:53 Sep 10 2008
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Oceanne,

Re: "Hey! I resent that remark.I do have a special pool and food and..and treasure!;)"

Purely out of respect for you I'm having my pool filled in and I'm sending all of the Purina Mermaid Chow back to Purina. I've decided to build unicorn stables instead and am currently attempting to find a supplier for bulk Paranormal Unicorn Pellets.



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Oceanne
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LOL Now you're talking! Thanks.

But to at least address this statement..
" instead believes they are misunderstood natural phenomena, isn't that a bit of a contradiction?"

Im not so sure it is a contradiction Beast.I feel it depends on what one's idea of a ghost is.



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Nocturnica
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01:39:27 Sep 11 2008
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I feel a pressure and my eyes water like crazy.



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Beastt17
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10:29:16 Sep 11 2008
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Oceanne,

I'm not sure I understand. Perhaps if you explain what your idea of a ghost is, it will help to clear the matter up for me.


(Armstrong - 2009 TdF!)



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Oceanne
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11:36:23 Sep 11 2008
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Messaged you in regards to your question Beast.
Either way when looking into this ,it would be my advice to do just what she stated she would... taking note of her surroundings and eliminating possible causes for her symptoms one by one.



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LovelyXDEATH35
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12:57:14 Sep 11 2008
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"As for the original topic, I've still not seen one shred of evidence presented which suggests that the experiences reported are the result of other than simple allergies." beast

that is what im trying to figure out if its really allergies or something else problem is i have been to busy to go get another allergy test so when time comes up i will




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Beastt17
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15:34:20 Sep 11 2008
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LovelyXDEATH35,

Re: "that is what im trying to figure out if its really allergies or something else problem is i have been to busy to go get another allergy test so when time comes up i will"

Allow me to applaud your willingness to first seek rational answers before diving into the irrational and unsupportable assertions common to so many.


(Armstrong - 2009 TdF)



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dabbler
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19:40:10 Sep 11 2008
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The entertainment value, and sentimental value of Para normal stands out as the only applicable thing. traditionally, before the Fox Sister Duped some self titled "investigators" with parlor tricks it was just that a parlor entertainment, a group of people would gather for the purpose of having a group ice breaker, hypnotist/ mesmerist where and still are used for the same purpose. Some how hype blew up the whole scene, and saw a window to claim clinical application for the craft (as in hobby). The whole thing para Normal ect. needs to get off the "Taken as a serious subject." train, and show a better application then the stagnant astonishment factory it has become. Leave spirits alone people. You are causing a rift in peoples stability, thiose that don't need to see ghost, feel ghost, smell ghost, hear ghost, there are those that can imagine ghost, those that can create ghost, those that can account for ghost like activity, there is no interface between ghost an humans. there is memory, there is sentimentality, there is even mourning and grief, deal with your loses without dragging the soul of your loved one back to this wrethed planet.



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Oceanne
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LOL oh woah there,speak for yourself..Im blonde too,Im not dizzy..(just messin)
But Dab,"The entertainment value, and sentimental value of Para normal stands out as the only applicable thing."
I have to say,I dont feel thats entirely true..some of these things really are weird and are very hard to explain,sometimes impossible and peeps honestly believe that they are otherwordly..But even so,it never hurts to really look into something and go through a process of elimination before one simply attributes an incident to the paranormal.



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dabbler
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00:29:11 Sep 14 2008
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No need they have illiminated them selfs they have exposed their deception, they try variations, but do the same tricks, they hound scientist to no end (yet if a scientist appears to be buying their pitch, they will embrace that scientist, and even prematurly use him in endorsements. See it is not other worldly, it is this world, the people that do this, and claim what people believe they do not believe it. It is all a set-up for them. The only phenomena is how they can keep finding victims. It is all role playing, do you think that a magician really believes he is sawing a woman in halve? When Cris Angle performs do you really believe he is getting hit by a car, of course you don't, yet some people (if they where not told it was a trick, would believe it.. are you likely to believe it? No because you know and expect it to be a performance, his showman ship makes an environment that flatters your imagination, and senses.. sensationalism is crap.. always will be. Astonished people are easily duped, especially when a religion or belief is utilized for added attraction. Get over the whole, anything is possible, because obviously you have over looked a few possibilities on the way to your conclusions. Like the possibility that if a person can be fooled by a stage trick, when expecting it to be a stage trick, then how much better can they be fooled when they are not expecting a performance of a trick? Where are the clinics, and institutions for claimed Psychic? Oh thats right if they did that they would be subject to regulation, they would need to keep records of their "practices". They would need acredidation, and they would be subject to actual legal action when they falter and miss inform a person during grief.. I hear more redundant crap from people that support psychics then I do from other religions.. yet insteed of you are going to hell for not believeing it is, you have a closed mind for not excepting there pitch (which is all it is.. I wish I could have recorded some of the off remarks of the hags that worked the Spiritualist church I "usered for."

ou really think I am over reacting to this practice? Then heres one for you, google fraudulant medium cases.. for one state, just one state, and get back to me, read about it from the victims view, when you hear about a kid that had his room wired for sound collection, the info used in sittings. Better yet believe what you want, and notice how once your money is gone they could careless about your grief..
It is money or promotion. I have had it with the damn occult, if I told you something was a Ponzi scam, A pyrymid Scam, would you point out that "Well the scam is being used to raise money for a Charity." would you do that?



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dabbler
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00:34:15 Sep 14 2008
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What about the person that buys stacks of books, alluding to (the damn practice is always so noncommital in their claims) teaching the reader how to "link up with the dead" now knowing as everybody (the majority of people) knows , that they use cold and hot reading, and other guile in there "practice/performance" if they are not teaching that then they are cutting and pasting crap from motivational press and devotionals all hog wash actually. So what is the person paying for? What are they getting? Nothing, nothing but discouraged, and they still have unresolved grief, Toy with peoples grief, I hope the whole lot are cursed to live in recluse for the damage they cause to grieved people.



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catseye
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02:11:54 Sep 14 2008
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might be an incubus demon looking for trouble



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bloodharvest
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07:59:50 Sep 14 2008
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in my experience it is more of a mental response, relating to the desire or lack thereof to have whatever force nearby. if its another person, its like a subconscious way that reveals whether or not i want to be around him or her.



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Beastt17
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08:35:30 Sep 14 2008
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And still, the evidence points to nothing more than allergies.



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iam
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09:11:53 Sep 14 2008
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Beastt17:

how do you confirm? how about whole tribes of peoples in south America that still interact with "spirits" ?



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Beastt17
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09:48:28 Sep 14 2008
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iam,

Re: "how do you confirm?"

In a case like this confirmation might be very simple. If she tests positive for allergies, takes the medication for allergies and finds the symptoms go away, then there is little call to believe it was anything but allergies.
---

Re: "how about whole tribes of peoples in south America that still interact with "spirits" ?"

The key to understanding many such claims is to first recognize the question in it's most accurate form which would be, "how about whole tribes of peoples in south America that still claim to interact with "spirits" ?"

As you already noted with your "how do you confirm?" question, it has never been confirmed that they're actually interacting with spirits, just as it was never confirmed that spirits cause disease, that volcano gods cause eruptions or even that spirits exist. In fact, in every case where confirmation has been achieved, the verified conclusion has been purely natural and not once has it been supernatural -- never. That's a fairly strong piece of evidence and a good indicator. But I doubt it would be fair to call it conclusive.

So to try to narrow it down, we'd need to know more about the specifics behind the proclaimed interaction. To what level do they interact? Can they ask the spirits to do things and expect compliance? Is there any evidence to support the claim of spirits? If not, then what makes this any more likely than the claim that David Koresh was the Messiah? What about the claim that the Earth sits perched upon a giant tree and when the tree shakes, we experience an earthquake?

There just isn't any evidence to support either of those claims so most of us find that to be enough reason to disbelieve the claims. The same should be applied to the claims of interacting with spirits. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and when we receive zero evidence instead, the claim simply doesn't stand any sort of credibility test.

People readily accept that elephant-sized, pink, feathered grasshoppers don't exist (at least, not on this planet), simply because there is no solid evidence upon which to support any such claim. They do the same if met with the assertion that wars between countries are simply games played by aliens from a nearby galaxy. In fact, in nearly every aspect of human endeavor, a complete lack of credible supporting evidence is seen to indicate the extreme likelihood that a given claim is untrue. It's only when people adopt claims with a kind of emotionalistic attachment that they fail to apply such criteria and instead, insist on belief despite the lack of evidence.

If tribes are interacting with spirits then there should be some kind of indication that something as yet completely unconfirmed is occurring. And since people are physical and our entire realm is physical any interaction must take place on the physical level. And you simply can't interact on a physical level without leaving evidence. Try it sometime.



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dabbler
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21:49:38 Sep 16 2008
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I would also include the Metaphoric nature of the tribe, as spirit the word maybe and has actually been used as , in some tribes, a metaphor for the persons memory. The elders spirit rest on a child, meaning the child was imprinted by the actual person while alive, so much so that the elders personality inflluenced the child. These metaphoric spirits are "interacted with" in ritual, usually involving conscious effecting agents. allowing for supression of the dominite personality, and surfacing the underlying supportive personality of the elder that was imprinted on the child, when outsiders speculate, with bias, and intent to repackage such ritual for their own cause.. it is likely to become very blown up and ultra-mysified. If I was a tribal person I would be insulted at some of the claims people throw around, and attach to tribal origins.



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bloodlace
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22:22:01 Sep 16 2008
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never someting physical but a smell..a really bad smell that used to come and go at the bottom of the stairs in this older house we lived in....i knew it was a spirit...ghost etc.



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Jypcie
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21:56:01 Sep 19 2008
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I get the runny nose itchy eyes and cough---but I have allergies :P I've never gotten that reaction to a "presence". I have from time to time felt as if some one else was in the room when no one else was home. or an uneasy feeling. on very rare occassions I've seen a shadow out of the corner of my eye that couldnt be explained away by rational methods. But, nope, never a physical reaction like that.



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Lavell
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13:26:22 Nov 03 2008
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I know totally what you're talking about. Though with me it depends on how strong the spirit is. Sometimes I just feel energies shift, or feeling like I'm being watched, or just get really cold. But if they really want me to notice them my tight gets really tight, tingles and I can't really breath, or I feel their emotions.

That's the hardest to deal with for me is their emotions cause they reflect off me. Like if one is sad I feel sad and I will act sad. Anger is the worst though. I can't stand running into a pissed off spirit.



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Beastt17
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17:23:13 Nov 03 2008
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The opening post describes symptoms consistent with allergies.

People who profess to be able to sense spirits almost always call them "energy". It seems that only a very small percentage of the public realizes that energy is something purely physical and purely detectable with various pieces of electronics equipment, yet there exists no verified case of anyone detecting a spirit.

It is proper to say, "I sense something." Why would it be a spirit rather than a fairy, Leprechaun, ghoul or ragweed?



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Oceanne
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18:25:37 Nov 03 2008
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I agree Beast,and everytime I see a post that claims to know that this "something " would be a spirit,I alsways ask myself how they know. And based on what evidence.



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Beastt17
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18:51:24 Nov 03 2008
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And when I ask for evidence that might indicate spirits rather than allergies, fairies or something else, the request is usually met with nothing but anger.



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Oceanne
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19:02:52 Nov 03 2008
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I know...

Personally,I would like to get involved in some experiments or something,but the whole thing is just so iffy,and inconsistant,how can anyone really do such a thing unless it is done over a priod of time.



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dabbler
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21:34:03 Nov 03 2008
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Interpretation is usually pressed above physical actuality, a person that has a cluttered house will likely declare ghost are fluttering about, rather then face the fact that they have a cluttered house that has gotten so bad things are falling out of place.



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LouisLeMeer
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22:19:48 Nov 03 2008
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Willful ignorance in other words, such as the person who grabs attention with the use of any type of Self-disillusionment, one person i spoke to was convinced that their house was haunted, and fancy that the "events" happened when the owner was under the influence of mind altering chemicals.



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Beastt17
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06:15:59 Nov 04 2008
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Any yet many will insist, misusing words like "know", as in; "but I know it was a ghost/spirit". Such attempts to embellish credibility by asserting that one's own lack of doubt somehow elevates simple belief to "knowledge" seems to be a hallmark of those who perhaps are attempting to convince themselves as much as they are attempting to convince others.

But "know" doesn't mean, belief without doubt. "Know" has a much higher standard -- one of demonstrability. If one can't demonstrate their assertion to be true, then they have no hope of offering credibility simply by claiming to "know", when in reality, they simply believe.

And many people have believed many irrational things for as far back as man's history can give us a glimpse. In almost every case where corroborating objective evidence was missing, the beliefs were simply wrong.



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dabbler
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20:05:22 Nov 04 2008
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Another common denominator is when a believer seeks to "stump" non-believers with exhaustive questioning of offered answers.

When this happen it is usually the same people that press those who share beliefs with them, for assurance (usually shunning their personal studies.

After all it is easy to turn on the TV and get a base knowledge of Jargon, and relative data to present ones self as a knowledgeable believers.



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Kyriel
Kyriel

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21:48:09 Nov 04 2008
Read 858 times

I too have something like this I believe. I can't see them, but I do know something is there. Sometimes it's energy rubs off on me. By this I mean I will suddenly either feel angry or sad.



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Beastt17
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21:54:17 Nov 04 2008
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So when we feel emotion, it's really just spirit energy?

How do you know?



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LouisLeMeer
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22:23:12 Nov 04 2008
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Emotion is commonly thought of as a chemical balance, or imbalance, certain emotions are reached by memory, others by chemical influence, some feel pain when touched with sharp objects, some feel erotic experiences, it all depends on how the chemicals react in your mind to the experience, correcting such behaviors, or changing them can be done by introducing different factors into the experience.

ex.

a bell is normally not something to induce hunger.

doctors in a certain area, unknown to me at moment, i have a great memory. they showed a steak to a dog, it salivated. they showed a steak and rung a bell, he salivated, in the end of the experiment they rung the bell with no steak and the dog salivated.



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Beastt17
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08:10:17 Nov 05 2008
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Pavlovian conditioning?
-----

I think at any time one makes a claim and can back the claim with only subjective evidence or worse yet, only claims of subjective evidence, there is cause and a need, for great doubt and skepticism.

When one makes an extraordinary claim, such as one involving an entire realm, never before confirmed to exist, and can offer nothing but subjective evidence or claims of subjective evidence, any who do not respond with utter doubt and voracious skepticism are playing the part of the fool.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and for good reason. To make an extraordinary claim and offer nothing but subjective evidence or subjective claims is to bark at the wind. Unfortunately, there are some who believe suspension of all reason and skepticism is the mark of an inquisitive mind. Rather, it is the mark of the mind poorly skilled or incapable of critical thought, and usually driven for the most, by pure emotion rather than reason.



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Beastt17
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08:31:31 Nov 05 2008
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Re: its not allergies i dont have allergies

and because i can feel them near me almost touching me


If one has the symptoms of allergies, no other explanation (that falls within reason), and hasn't been tested for allergies, then allergies is a much more rational suggestion that beings from a realm which has never once, in tens of thousands of years of failed claims, ever been verified.

What makes you think they're almost touching you. If a person sneaks up behind you and "almost" touches you, you'll have no more sensation of touch than if they were 50-miles away. The sense of touch relies upon contact, not near contact. And before one can detect a sensation and proclaim that sensation to be the breath of a unicorn, one must first have a verified case of being breathed on by a unicorn.

You're simply sensing something. That's really all I can find of merit in your claim. You have gone the extra step of putting a name to this something, but I see nothing to indicate that your conclusion of spirits is any more evidence or rational than if you had insisted that you were sensing the presence of TinkerBell. I mean that not as ridicule, but as an appropriate comparison. One is no more unlikely than the other.

So how do you know it's spirits that you're sensing? How do you know you don't have allergies? How do you know that there isn't some perfectly normal substance with which you keep coming into contact which is responsible for your reaction?


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Cloudx9
Cloudx9

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21:01:42 Nov 05 2008
Read 826 times

I get something like that but it's kinda a mix between emotional and a tingley feeling that goes up and down my spine whenever a spirit is near.



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Oceanne
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21:04:15 Nov 05 2008
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Cloud9,would you please tell us what it is that convinces you that it is a spirit?



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Cloudx9
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22:06:33 Nov 05 2008
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Well one time that it happened I told one of my friends that's into things of paranormal nature. He suggested that we use a ouji board. I asked if the board if the tingley feelings were that of a spirit or was it just cuz of something that's explainable. The board said that it was spirits. Also whenever a spirit was near I'd go from being happy to being aggressive for absolutely no reason at all and I know that I wasn't diagonsed as being bi-polar or anything of that nature.



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dabbler
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23:50:33 Nov 05 2008
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Phantom memories, are intense recollections, attached to key triggers, A subtle sentimental memento.. a phrase, and what that recalls. sometimes this can be something that is not there, or missing, a loved one. At about the time a loved one comes home, and slips into bed with the widow.. she may (a few days after his death).. like a person that lost an arm still "feeling it presence". Phantom recall, set to memory.



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Beastt17
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08:09:25 Nov 06 2008
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What is the point of using one never confirmed system to confirm a second never confirmed concept? If you really think the Ouija board can provide answers then you should have no problem with putting it to the test. And such a test can only yield valid results if it's double-blind. I would suggest something like gathering a few friends together. Get two or three people who are willing to hide a small object. Get two (or more) others who are willing to operate the Ouija Board. Have at least one other person who is willing to gather the data.

Use a room that can be completely closed off such as a bedroom. Have someone from the first group take a small object and hide it in the room. They can write down where it is hidden and provide that to the one recording the data. There should be no contact between the person who hid the object and those operating the Ouija Board, nor any contact between the one recording the information and those operating the Ouija Board until each cycle of the test is concluded. Once the object is hidden, have the two sit down at the Ouija Board and ask where the object is hidden. The hiding place should be specific such as "under the dresser", "under the pillow", or "top shelf of the main closet", rather than something like "in the bedroom".

Repeat this process several times and always assure that the one doing the hiding is not allowed even gestural communication with those operating the Ouija Board. Also make sure that the one gathering the data has no opportunity to communicate (even through signs or body-language), with the ones using the Ouija Board.

Run through the test at least 10 times. It should be fun. You can form a sort of party around it.

Then check to see if the Ouija Board correctly identifies the location of the hidden object each time. If it does, then you have established some objective evidence to support the idea that perhaps the information provided by the Ouija Board is valid. If it gets one or two right and the rest wrong, it's beyond reason to suggest that any valid information is actually coming from the Ouija Board. Of course such tests have been performed dozens of times with various "instruments of the occult", and the findings are already well confirmed. But do this for your own benefit so that you see for yourself the Ouija Boards possess no special power of any kind, other than the power of suggestion. The answers are determined by those touching the planchette.

Once you've done this, it should be clear to you that you have only your subjective assessment upon which to claim that you've had any contact by/with a spirit.

Of course if I'm wrong and your findings are contrary to the findings of other research on such matters then I'd have to give you a measure of latitude. But I'm quite confident that as long as everyone is totally honest, the test will reveal that a Ouija Board is incapable of providing any confirmation to anything.

If everyone involved in the test is certain I'm wrong, then there should be no cause for anyone to fudge the results.

I'd love to see the outcome posted.



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Beastt17
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08:13:47 Nov 06 2008
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One correction to the methodology. Those hiding the object should write where it is hidden, fold the paper, and place it out of sight in a sealed container such as a glass jar with a lid. The only person who should retrieve the paper should be the one recording the results and they must only do so after the Ouija Board has concluded providing an answer.

Have fun and let us know how it goes.



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VR System
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08:13:47 Nov 06 2008
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This thread has been automatically closed for length.



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• • • • THIS THREAD IS CLOSED • • • •
•  Closed by VR System on Nov 06 2008  •

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