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truth in maths
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ob1
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09:13:10 Dec 31 2004
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thruth depends of the person...
that's what i think...

and to go in starlite's direction, Godel didn't only say that things can't be proven true or false.
he also say that mathematics aren't true 4 sure...
let me explain, mathematic is the most powerfull tool u can use to prove things, but to prove mathematics, u would need an even more powerfull tool!


i'll get a lil technical now, sorry.
in set theory, for exemple, u only got 7 axioms that helps u prove anything else:
1st axiom: 2sets r equal if and only if they have the same things inside.
2nd:given 2 sets, it exists one and only one set that contains exactly those 2 sets.
and so on...
the next r more difficult...
those 7 axioms r called the Zermelo-Fraenkel theory.
we call a theory a group of axioms.
a theory is called valid if nothing can be at the same time true AND false.
but nothing proves Zermelo-Fraenkel theory is valid...




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Cancer
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13:37:38 Dec 31 2004
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Well ob1, I know English isn't your first language... I am having a little bit of trouble understanding your point.

There are people that argue all manner of things aren't so. For example, there is a large group of people in the U.S. (led by Irwin Schiff) that maintain U.S. income taxes are unconstitutional. The thousands of pages of IRS revenue code doesn't matter. It doesn't matter that every judge has ruled income tax is legal. They maintain their position. (Personally I think they're just opposed to paying taxes and this is their little form of rationalization)

Sometimes you can over analyze something. Math is based on the simple concept of quantity. If I have 1 rock, and my friend has 3 rocks, if we put them together we have 4 rocks. The rocks may be different shapes and sizes (hence not equal), but there will always be 4 rocks. All higher forms of math stem from this basic concept. There are upper, theoretical, systems of math that I grant are in debate. But the discussion of these systems is far beyond the scope of this Forum.

You could argue that the numbers themselves are somewhat irrelevant. Our entire system of math is based on a base 10 system. Base 10 means we use 10 digits in our numeric representations, 0 through 9. Our numbering system took this form because humans have 10 fingers. Early caveman counted on his fingers. (On a tangent, 10 is not a digit in base 10. It is a combination of 0 and 1. When zero became a mathematical concept in early Egypt, the numbering system changed from 1-10 to 0-9.)

Now, here's the interesting part. You can change base systems and have the quantity unchanged. Any computer programmer out there knows all about different base systems. Computers use binary (base 2), octal (base 8), and hex (base 16). In binary, if I wanted to write 5 (base 10) I would write it: 101. It still represents the quantity 5, it's just written differently.

But numbers are only labels. What they represent does not change. A table is a table, whether it is called a table, mesa, or tabelle.



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ob1
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14:46:35 Dec 31 2004
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i don't agree with u cancer...
the thiongs u speak about is calculus, not mathematics, sorry to say...
but even in calculus, u can't be sure of everything:
your exemple with the rocks, is an easy addition with natural numbers.
and so in all the additions, u use all properties of natural numbers, which to be proven, needs a rigourous construction of the set of natural numbers,
which can be done using zermelo-fraenkel theory...



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Cancer
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16:21:43 Dec 31 2004
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I really have no clue what you're talking about. I purposely never mentioned Calculus. I started from the beginning, basic quantity, upon which all math is founded.



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ob1
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17:28:18 Dec 31 2004
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it's hard 4 me to go against your opinion, but 1rock+1rock=2rocks isn't math...
i know your r a clearer thinker i'll ever in ...
ohh so many subjects! (unfortunately 4 me almost any subject).
but not in math...
may it look unmodest, but i'm good among the goods in that subject...
and anyone who had to do math near me would agree on that...
math is nothing a computer can do, it's about proving things not just accept 1+3=4 like a religion!
i may be a stupid person, but in math, believe i rule!







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AnTaNia999
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01:05:23 Jan 01 2005
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your both argueing maths.... one for applied mathematics, and the other for pure mathematics.... but mathematics isn't necessarily always numbers and quantity, logic can be expressed in mathematics....so is my favourite theory, 'Chaos'...

I believe this should be a matter where both have to agree to disagree



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miz
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06:04:37 Jan 01 2005
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ob1 will take you to places where numbers are never mentioned. Beautiful places where size does not matter. He's taken me there, and the view is well worth the effort :)



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paramour
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06:40:52 Jan 01 2005
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...Cancer puts me into a fractal mood! ooolala! ;)



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DeathIsBecoming
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09:22:22 Jan 01 2005
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fine but the limit as x approaches 0 of 1/x still is equal to infinity

so there



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Dhampir
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13:55:37 Jan 01 2005
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'Whoa, you're twisting my melon man'
Sorry if i am dim.. but the point to this question is? i can't see the wood for the tree's me t'inks



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Echo
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22:25:36 Jan 03 2005
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Wow... I wish I was mathmatically minded sometimes.

One of my best friends claims that I would understand the world much more if I understood maths (she is doing maths at imperial)

But in what perspective? It all seems to come down to numbers but like ob1 is saying, whats above all of that?

Excellent thread, sorry I havent got nayhting better to put into it but I cant help explain what i dont understand... but surely there are different levels of understanding that maths cannot explain?

Good luck everyone !



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Dhampir
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22:39:42 Jan 03 2005
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Did America really get to the moon 1st? Considering they spent millions on inventing a pen to use in space, when the russians used a pencil.... *grins*



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Cancer
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00:27:34 Jan 04 2005
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I find that extensive work in mathematics comes to mean more than just the math. The logic and problem solving skills required are quite good for the mind.. And as you get more into it, your entire system of thinking will change.



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Khayman
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16:15:36 Jan 05 2005
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Ok, Im not really gonna read through this thread. I hadn't passed a math class since the fifth grade...
I dont do numbers.
I'm effectively an "outdoor girl".
Manual labor... outside stuff.
I can build a house... just dont ask me to design it...
:/



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DeathIsBecoming
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00:39:45 Jan 07 2005
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gotta agree with ya there cancer, my life seems to have been coming more and more together as i have been moving up with the levels,
i seemingly i had no coheret thought in algerbra and now i am able to reason out things better using tips & tricks i have been learning since then



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HellChildDami
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01:33:31 Jan 07 2005
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I've been having a hard time following this thread in general, like that would have been hard to figure out. But I will say this, when I was in high school I A'ced pre-algerbra easliy because in my class you worked at your own pace. I was amoung the select few who were ahead the rest of the class, getting almost in to calculous (spelling, that's where I should have concentraited on) work. But the following year I failed algebra, and had to re take it the next year, those were all the credits I needed so I didn't take any more, like most I figured I'd never really need it. Boy was I wrong. I've actually, over the years taught to do math inside my head and can usually, not always figure complex things out, things I could never grasp in HS. Why is it that so many are just barely coing out of school even knowing how to add and subtract?



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ChaosBleed
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13:33:34 Jan 07 2005
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Well 2 things really
1)Antania sorry am late but I agree with you (you just place it more eloqently than me)
2)I absolutely HATE maths (it gives me a headache) but beer matyhs is fun £10 divided by £2= 5 pints :-)



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Yendor
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01:40:43 Jan 08 2005
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I'll go along with Chaosbleed point, Maths its braintrashing for me, Beer - GOOD, (Actually I prefer Vodka) anyhow, LOL OB1 where there's you there'll always be maths LOL...Whisperer



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MyIntelligenceIsAbsent
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13:13:13 Jan 08 2005
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with the little i know of this subject i cannot exactly preach... but whilst reading this thread i must say Cancer's comments were far more logical and made actual sense where as OB1's logic was skeptical.. im just a confused child *runs off*



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Cancer
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15:21:04 Jan 09 2005
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I don't exactly doubt OB1's position, it just needs to be explained a little more clearly.



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danzig1330
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15:40:19 Jan 09 2005
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I am late to this thread, naturally but I can not figure out its point. Math is about logic and I agree w/ cancer. I only got to trig, in hs since I went into the army instead of going to college but at least I can add mutiple numbers in my head. lol.



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ob1
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18:29:45 Feb 07 2005
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i'm back online and i'll try to explain me more clearly.
what i meant by truth is objectiv truth, not something a selfcalled intelligent person told it's true, like a religion.
i'm looking 4 a langage that even an alien fdrom outerspace would understand and believe, that u can prove...
tell him:"A.Lincoln was presidents of the USA"
he would say:"nice story, but how can u prove it?gimme a trustable witness..."



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Jason
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23:25:17 Feb 07 2005
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Ever notice that the higher you go in mathmatics the closer your answer is to zero? And if you go higher than that...the numbers don't even exhist....



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ob1
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23:59:03 Feb 07 2005
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u start doing math without numbers (and real maths at the same time) at 3rd year uni, i don't call this high level...



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06:22:26 Feb 08 2005
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I would have to lean towards Cancer's argument on this. My math education is much more limited then it should be, I've had up through high-school level calculus. I rather disliked all of my math classes, even though I passed them all fairly easily, untill I reached calculus. That was the one math class I began to enjoy, and at the same time, had the most difficult time with. The farther I got into it, the more I started to see how everything in the real world relates to math. The golden ratio is a good example of that.
I completely agree with Cancer's comment about the world being a better place if people's math skills were higher. It wouldn't be an end-all, but it would almost definatley make a huge difference in society.



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HellChildDami
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06:26:07 Feb 08 2005
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Ok I'm still very confssed as to what exactly this thread is all about ...

Welcome back OB1 been wondering when you'd fianlly crawl out of the woodwork again. How you doing, all healed up?

Any hoo, can someone please explain the point of this thread and why/what really got it started? Even in y'r first post OB1 I don't quite understand the whole reason behind this, though through reading it, I find that I am intrigued (sp?) as to figure it out.... ?^{



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NecrosHaemwraith
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13:17:34 Feb 08 2005
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You have to calculate things to find the truth of course but I think reducing it to maths is to simlify too far you need to weigh the actual evidence if u think mathematically though and ur comfortable with that then why not! It all leads to the same result!



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apparitionknight
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04:01:05 Feb 09 2005
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I think what OB1 is trying to Convey here is that their should be a language of mathmatics or using mathmatics in complex form in which everyone including all Sentient lifeforms would be able to understand it and comprehend it as a universal language



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apparitionknight
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04:17:29 Feb 09 2005
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im sorry forgot to say and as truth so to prove things are what they are with out doubt



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voidwhichbinds
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06:18:44 Feb 09 2005
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OMG Cancer - your post halfway into this thread is what's wrong with the world

I studied applied maths for 4 yrs at uni (calculus, vector calc, integral calc) and then used it all in my higher degree in nuclear physics, learning about quantum physics, particle accelerators, particle physics.

so the original poster you want to talk about truth, how about deriving the speed of light from 2 fundamental constants, or predicting the electron's charge to 10 decimal places... this kind of truth is based on your inertial frame of reference, and then deriving axioms of length, commutation, and transformation

PS why is the sky blue? ;-P



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07:23:48 Feb 09 2005
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Who said the sky is blue? The sky is only blue to anyone who associates that particular part of the color spectrum with the word blue. It's also very relative to the position of the sun in the sky and the weather.



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voidwhichbinds
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08:21:05 Feb 09 2005
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I *know* why the sky is blue on a clear daytime sky in summertime, that's why I included the tongue poking smilie ;-)



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HellChildDami
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08:27:31 Feb 09 2005
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Thank you apparitionknight laymens terms wow I never thought I'd understand what they were getting at to beging with, thanks again



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apparitionknight
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09:35:58 Feb 09 2005
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No problem ---that is if im right lol



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ob1
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10:35:16 Feb 09 2005
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u r absolutly right apparitionknight!



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HellChildDami
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10:51:08 Feb 09 2005
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Thank you, I have tired to follow this thread since the day i started .... now maybe my damn head will stop hurting while I'm reading it LOL What's the equation for that ??? J/K Ohhh I'm so happy now that I know :^* tanks one and all



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DarknessBound
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15:11:52 Feb 09 2005
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math....not my favorite subject of the bunch....ive only had to do it because i have to....right now im taking calculus, its alright ...not hard at all, just tedious and i think that is why people think its hard and give up so quick...but math is something that you need in this world to survive....i dont care how philosophical you want to get and go to other realms in thought or whatever, but math is a nessesiity and everyone knows this.
as for me, i need math until the day i die...my area of expertise is science...therefore math is a crucial factor.
not only that but math is crucial to everything....and i agree with cancer when he says that this country would be a better place if everyone knew math.....
the united states is i think one of the first successful countries behind in education. when i was in the 3rd grade in Cuba, i was doing 5 figure division and math problems that when i got here i started doing in 5th grade.....how bad is that? European countries, and Asian countries all have an education system far more advanced than the USA...education is a must where as here is just an option and it shouldnt be like this.



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Cancer
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22:26:45 Feb 09 2005
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>> OMG Cancer - your post halfway into this thread is what's wrong with the world

voidwhichbinds, are you referring to the fact that few American's have what would be considered an acceptable level of math comprehension, considering America's technological position in the world?



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Khayman
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22:34:16 Feb 09 2005
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The sky is blue because that is the only color the ozone reflects.


right?
:/



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Requiem
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22:51:03 Feb 09 2005
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Khayman:

Why is the sky blue: Discussion

Transmitted light (from the sun, light bulbs, fire, etc) is made up of a spectrum of colors. The longest wavelengths of light are on the red end of the spectrum and the shortest wavelengths are on the blue/violet end of the spectrum.

When transmitted light such as sunlight enters our atmosphere it collides with the oxygen and nitrogen atoms. The color with the shorter wavelength is scattered more by this collision. Because violet and blue are the shortest wavelengths the sky appears to be violet / blue. But because our eyes are more sensitive to blue light than they are violet light, we perceive the sky as blue.

Our eyes contain thousand of rods and cones, which are the receptors for light. Whenever one of the 3 Stooges pokes you in the eye you see a giant blue spot. This is because the blue receptors have been activated. Blue is one of the primary colors and thus more easily activated and seen by our eyes.

Blue is also how I feel when my baby leaves and my hound dog dies. Also, how I feel when the cops pull me over and I see their blue lights flashing in my rear view mirror. Then, again, blue is the color of the K-mart special, so this color isn't all bad.


Why is the sky blue: Summary
So, why is the sky blue? It is because blue light from the sun strikes the air molecules and scatters and our eyes perceive it as blue.


Why is the sky blue: Short Summary
Why is the sky blue, you ask? Blue in sunlight collides with air molecules and our eyes see it as blue.



Why is the sky blue: Condensed
Sunlight collides with air, scatters blue wavelengths.


Why is the sky blue: Ultra-Condensed.
You are seeing things. Stop asking.



This was found at:

http://www.why-is-the-sky-blue.tv/why-is-the-sky-blue.htm



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DarknessBound
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03:55:09 Feb 10 2005
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Requiem darling, that has got to be the most informative funniest thing EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

rofl



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apparitionknight
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06:28:10 Feb 10 2005
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well here is one for you on math as a universal language ever notice on crop circles (not the fake ones) but the unexplained ones that they could be a mathmatical computation of sort that we are missing. In all the videos i have everseen or articals that i have read no one has ever brought that up and to me they look like proton and atom charts of sort (maybe not human) but none the less communication. whats your take on that?



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wheys10tym
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20:51:51 Feb 17 2005
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I commend you cancer!!!! I'm a 40 year old guy goin to college right now and math is extremely hard for me. I want to be a Numerical Progammer when i grow up, but am having probs with division of algebraic expressions....what the hell is 4x cubed + 6x squared + 1 divided by 2x - 1 ? I commend all of you that can think mathmatically. I formally was a carpenter and had to work with just basic math. I'm surpized how many people have not even those basic skills. I'm not asking to know quantim theory or physics (yet), but could use some help.....or from anyone out there.....my email is wheys10tym@hotmail.com



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Obelisk
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22:38:41 Feb 17 2005
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I've noticed that about crop circles too. Many of them are in very intricate designs and are complex. The ones that are not symetrical in design to seem to be trying to get some kind of message across to us. And certian circles do look very much like atom and electron orbitals and planetary orbits.



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apparitionknight
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23:24:24 Feb 17 2005
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glad to see im not the onlyone who noticed



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Sunshine
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03:13:27 Feb 18 2005
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Tree....pretty

Fire...bad





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voidwhichbinds
voidwhichbinds
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07:27:52 Feb 18 2005
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cool - i leave the thread for 7 days and find the postscript of my contribution to this thread has changed the thread's direction!

i asked this question simply because it's representative of phenomena that's all around us - physics, specifically, applied mathematics. But also because the mathematics underlying photon scattering in gases, *can* be understood when it's adequately explained - I, personally, prefer this explanation:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/atmos/blusky.html

understanding algebra, obtained from proficiency in graphs, number systems, and in this specific case, exponent rules, allows one to predict the outcome of incident light, from the inverse relationship in that equation.....



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voidwhichbinds
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07:35:36 Feb 18 2005
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yes, cancer, I'm getting at the proficiency with maths, because it relates to so many aspects of our working lives, as well as planning for the future (ie finances, loans, credit cards)



;-)



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madbeau
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12:37:50 Feb 18 2005
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the truth is maths sucks its a pain in the ass but thats just my opinion



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Epitaph
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19:39:44 Feb 18 2005
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confusing thread i agree with madbeau math suck i passed it and thats end of story



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poisonkitty13
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20:03:37 Feb 18 2005
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I read ob1s starting post 4 or 5 times... and my eyes are still crossing. And I generally have no trouble following math - if that is indeed what he's trying to discuss.
I agree with Cancer, ob1's position needs clarification.



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Requiem
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20:08:51 Feb 18 2005
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Ok. Those last two comments were not very helpful.

I too, have trouble with many of the higher maths. I'm neither lazy nor stupid, I just have great difficulty thinking linearly for long enough to follow complex mathematical suppositions or solutions.

However.

Simply stating, "Maths suck" contributes NOTHING useful to the conversation.

Query:

Have any of you seen the movie Pi? I saw it several years ago and it struck a HUGE chord with me. I see patterns in things, most things. Those of you with much higher math oriented brains, do you think every thing CAN be represented in patterns and numbers?



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Requiem
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20:11:05 Feb 18 2005
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whoops, the "last two" bit was aimed towards vampkamui and madbeau, not you poison kitty. you snuck that in there before I got my post up. Oh. If you read further, he does clarify.



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apparitionknight
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07:46:08 Feb 20 2005
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read back I clarified it for everyone



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apparitionknight
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07:48:59 Feb 20 2005
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Oh I forgot the thread was not really about math at all it was about communication using mathmatics as a language



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ellie
ellie

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21:05:49 Feb 21 2005
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wow that was very hard to understan maybe because i haven't learned anything about that yet



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DeathIsBecoming
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23:59:41 Feb 23 2005
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i agree with the sky is blue thing, why not say that we are on Haygater Jkagery instead of Vampire Rave,

the only way to make it so every being out there to understand a language you have to teach it to them.

aliens or what not probably use the exact same logic as us in math but will use different ways of expressing the same thing

they would probably have different symbols for numbers and arthmetic signs and all that but otherwise it would be the same



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apparitionknight
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07:00:27 Feb 24 2005
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In order to understand this you must step out side the box. Quit trying to proccess info the way you have always done. Basically instead of three dimentional thinking, think in greater dimentions. For example something that has three sides that you can see with your eyes and define by standard definition--take that item close your eyes and touch it you may feel more sides that you could not see before because the eyes can deceive you. How many sides does a circle have? none? four? eight? what about a square? Does it have 6 sides or does it have 12. I guess it all depends on what a side is to you. My opinion is in order to communicate on this level we must learn to think on it first.



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ob1
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10:34:19 Feb 24 2005
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i'll try to be clear now, but's it's gonna be hard: the subject isn't easy, and i must explain it in english, which langage i'm bad at...

1st of all, 1+1=2 isn't a truth, it's just a definition of 2(as a number as a symbol or anything).
using another character won't change math, just need to use '$' anytime u see a '2' for exemple...

the point of this thread is: is there anything in math that can't be change that way? using other definition of fields or topological spaces or even sets.

the answer is no:
4 example the definition of a field is the more logical according to trhe definition of rings and groups...
the definition of a group will depend the same of the sets we use.
and a set is defined by the zermelo fraenkel axioms. which axioms looks logical, but are NOT the only axioms that someone could use...
the only thing that maths proves is: if our definitions and axioms r true then this theorem is also true...



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Scarlett
Scarlett
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16:16:04 Feb 24 2005
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Scarlett reads all.. and cannot get the Jimmy Buffett song "math sucks" out of her brain.



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ob1
ob1
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10:59:22 Feb 25 2005
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10x scarlett! now everything is clear!



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HellChildDami
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12:31:45 Feb 25 2005
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WAIT!!! Hold on, you mean to tell me I've been reading this thread over and over and all I had to do was listen to an old Jimmy Buffet song ... Damn it ... well I'm off to Margaritaville



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miz
miz

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13:22:58 Feb 25 2005
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ob1 has a need to impose order on the world - we all have that need. You witches do it through myths and magic; the sane do it through systems of philosphy. And ob1 is sane.

Nobody, who is astonished to discover that he has a point of view.



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NecrosHaemwraith
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16:01:12 Feb 25 2005
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Truth is true or false zero or one it doesn't require maths just a series of logical results a sentient life form wouldn't understand numbers more than words in relation to this matter it would only further confuse what you were saying the universe is simple don't overcomplicate things for yourself



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• • • • THIS THREAD IS CLOSED • • • •
•  Closed by TheRat on Oct 04 2010  •

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