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Sorry for the TYPO - Perhaps seeing isn't believing, when we can't really be expected to believe what we see anymore.

The point of what they do isn't actually about what they are physically doing. Its about the feeling that it give the spectator. Its entertainment. Its about connecting with your audience. So if a little fudging is used in some parts, what is the harm? You think all those cards tricks actually happen by "real" magic? No, the real magic is the feeling and sense of wonderment you get from it. I think the only cheater here is the person who has to dilute and dissect and art form instead of embracing it for what it is. Entertainment.

If you read the official press release for Dive of Death it says quite clearly that Blaine would be upright for periods of time. They didn't try to lie about that.

As far as the statement that they will never be Houdini... well or course not. Just like I won't ever be Houdini. People are individuals. Some of what these guys do is actually harder than anything Houdini ever attempted. Thats the truth. I'll let you in on a little secret. Houdini did mostly escapology and a lot of what these guys do isn't that. Some is and some isn't. So, it can't all fairly be lumped into the same category.

A stunt isn't supposed to be magic anyways. Thats why its called a stunt and not a magic trick.

humans are flawed that is all I can say no one is perfect which is why houdinie didn't make it through that last trick

and i mean as far as Chriss Angel and Blain they are nothing special Human like the rest of us they've found a way to make us beleive what we see is true jsut goes to show u how far technology has come thats the true magic no one really uses anything out of books like many of those who believe that they are witches and of the wicca craft we may believe something and b/c we believe it, it is true to us

when a child believes in santa or the easter bunny it is real to them just as real as the chair ur sitting iin or the key board your typing on but what many don't know is these reality shows shown on tv are done the same way movies are done HOLLYWOOD MAGIC.

no one thinks about that tho. some real futage is caught on fil mand shown but most of the time all ur really looking at is tampered,doctored up stuff. and thats the real plain truth take taps for instance all they do is build a hugs amount of suspence on the show and make you think they saw something or something movied when it's jsut like what you would see in a movie ACTING...

I respect what they do and it's entertaining to a point. I am simply playing devils advocate here, in order to hear what other peoples view on this are.

Yet people still flock to Sylvia Brown, John Edward, and Uri Geller Shows.



The difference between a performer of illusions, and a BullS*#*@ artist?
I suggest Penn And Tellers Performances, entertainment and a laugh.

I respect what they do also. It is amazing how the mind can be fooled. I do wonder how Blaine levitates. That takes an incredible amount of practice.

well I feel Illusionist are just that they give the illusion that something has taken place or happened, I feel it is all entertainment and well I take my hat off to anyone that has a talent as to perform any kind of illusion.

I have always found it fasinating and interesting. To bad they do not give away their tricks LOL as to how they do it, then again if they did who would be in awe of their performances LOL

whoops, sorry about that, lets try this.

Sorry, but performance magic is a lot more than people who are in on it. Just because that is a simple answer does not mean it is the right one. Better luck next time.

Blaine has lost a lot of credibility. He did this to himself, first when he put out a book, and he told how he did some of his acts. I give him credit. He puts his body through hell, and has great conditioning. But his last two stunts in a row have fizzled, and have come under scrutiny. Especially his stuck in a block of ice bit.

What Tepes said is very true. However, the whole idea of an endurance stunt is pushing yourself. Blaine had planned on sleeping while standing while doing the ice stunt but he was unable to because of a number of factors. These things don't always pop up until its "show time."

The point is that he keeps pushing himself out of his comfort zone. Why you ask? I keep coming back to it but its for OUR ENTERTAINMENT. I think the fact that he does these things to make people smile and add a little bit of awe to our mundane days is worth giving him a huge pat on the back. If he fails... so what. The intentions are noble just the same.

One big difference between Cris Angel and some of them out there like Uri Geller Cris doesn't claim to have supernatural powers. He calls what he does illusions and stunts. I pointed this out before in a similar thread. I did lose a little bit of respect though for Cris when on one show he was doing a card trick with a "stranger" he supposedly hypnotized then proceeded to cut into the guys head with a knife and pull a card out of it. This was obviously set up ahead of time and a make-up job done on his head. I had never seen him do such a blatantly obvious trick before and was very disappointed.

Good poin't. I didnt mean to imply that stooges were never used. I just meant that they aren't used as much as people think. Its just a convenient answer to a lot of things. The problem is that things like this can only be done on TV.

The guys who are called "workers" in the biz never resort to these type of things simply because its not really an option. Workers are the guys you see in resturants and trade shows, up close and personal. When you are in TV land you have the whole "4th wall" to use as cover. It has its advantages and its disadvantages. This does not mean that everything you see on TV is some kinda of movie magic though. ;)

i think its all purley fro amusement, even though when I go, all I am thinking about is that, wow this is so fake.

Why bother even going then? That's like buying concert tickets to a band you are sure you will hate.

I feel that no matter who they are they it is all for our entertainment. There is a difference between magic and illusion. Most of the things we see are illisions small tricks to fool our mind.

We might as well listen to part of what the man himself has to say...

Its like going to a wrestling show and saying , "this is all fake!" "they are not even really hitting each other!"

Its all about the effort these people make , to make us wonder , to think , wow , how the hell?

The show man ship, when you go to the carnival midway you play the games, perhaps you know they are stacked (rigged) against the player, Vagas, and casinos shave the odds on Slots, yet people still play, it is the intent of the performer, how can people that watch a magic act believe that the magician is actually sawing a woman in half. They are out to cathh the how he does it. They want to see the illusion fail, in some respect. because people do occassionally win a carnival game.

The same people that scrutinize Illusionist, seem to totally disregard the likelihood that all the sensational aspects of their adopted belief can be just as easily performed.. Trumpet seances started as a parlor entertainment, then in the rise of vaudiville the troupes took a hit in bookings someone attached a religion/spirituality to it and the con artist took it on the road with Medicine shows, also known as snake oil shows. After the shows got to bold in their activity, they actually switch to For entertainment purposes only slogans, this was out of self preservation, after being exposed for the shady performances under pretense of mysticism.

Does a magician believe he is sawing a woman in half?
Does he want it to appear that he is sawing a woman in half?
Is a mime really believing he is locked in a box?
Is he hoping to relate to you that he is locked in a box?

I don't know. Criss has access to more materials. He can do more than Houdini ever could. I don't care for David Blaine.

Then again, isn't all reality some form of illusion. Do we not all change our individual and collective reality by how we respond to the everyday in our lives.
Blaine and others like him simply use this information - to manipulate the collective.
Just some random thoughts.

True it's all illusions. However, it shakes the audiences amusement most definately when they feel blatantly cheated out of a stunt. After a two hour special ends as wrongly as Blaine's did it shows how their illusion of grandor can come Oh SO short of grand.

Here is a symposium presentation from Teller, relating a few aspects of misdirection.

misdirection is a cool trick but david blain has gone from being amazing to just weird

Some times i think its just for shock value, some of the things they have been done amazing while others jus plain strange

wether illusion or magic
its crazy how much practice they put into it
just to do those things
i dont neccasarly beleive it magic
but i guess its a good job

Jack,I agree with you across the board.And as far as feeling cheated? Unreal that someone could think that if they take into account all the effort ,study,training and prep that goes into these illusions.Not to mention money.They take it to heart that the show must go on,and sometimes that entails damage control,extracting every bit of entertainment value salvagable,even if the stunt or trick results in failure.It seems that medium difference has been ignored too.As Jack stated,tv is totally different than a floor show.Like reading a story or watching it in the form of a movie.I dunno,I give them credsit for what they do,and even though one's style might be preferred over another,cant really take away credit where its due.Cause they are two of the best in the industry this generation.Their ok in my book.And even if they might fail from time to time,I certainly wouldnt feel ceated when they do.
JMHO

Personally I think people look to into things these days, Illusionists magicians what ever you choose to call them. They are performers and thus we should simply let ourselves be freed from mindless dribble of thinking on it and just let it astound us as we did when we were children.Its meant for entertainment, could some stunts be pulled off better? Yes

Could some of the actions leading to the finale be a little more smoother? yes, however it is still entertaining to watch and then try to figure out how some of the things are done on our own so we can later try to do lesser stunts and keep the name magic alive.

The bad thing with TV anymore especially is you can't believe anything you see anymore because the whole thing could be 1 guy in front of a blue screen and everything else could be fake. Even if there's a so-called audience they could be in on it. I think anymore for a "magic" show to be truly entertaining you would have to see it in person or it's to easy to write it of as "camera tricks".

I can't think of a single time that a magician has used a blue screen... just sayin. As a side note, they are usually green nowadays as far as I know ;)

hahaha thats so true

or they like to use split second camera angle readjustment so you think your seeing where your seeing when your really looking like the opposite side

Cut aways are generally done in the interest of killing down time. TV is such a blast on the senses that they want as much "action" per second as possible. When you are actually there the blah blah is very important in getting someone invested in the effect. When you are at home with a bag of chips you just want instant gratification. Its a different game.

Thats not always the reason but 95% of the time that is the reason.

how would you know if they used a blue or green screen? the color isn't the important thing here. The main point I'm making is it's easier to fool the camera. Also like the previous poster said multiple cameras get used to "give you a better view" but when they switch angles you have no way to know how much time has elapsed between shots. They are not going to come out and tell you "this illusion is done with camera tricks" that would kind of defeat the purpose. There are some tricks that are obviously set up in advance where the audience is in on it. the one done just before the confrontation with cris angel dabbler pointed out with that you tube video is a perfect example. what made it worse the guy claimed to have psychic powers but when cris angel asked him to do something simple if he really had powers the guy fell apart then began attacking cris. I like most of cris angel's shows they are entertaining most of the time. At the same time I would rather see it live in person to see how real it looks then. The "audience" in most of his shows are very small and I'm sure are compensated for being on the show. I find it hard to believe that camera tricks of one kind or another are not used for a lot of the tricks simply because it reduces production costs. On the other hand I do believe that he is a talented illusionist and escape artist or he would not be where he is today. I'm not trying to pick on cris he's just one of the most recognizable entertainers in that field right now. I'm sure a lot of the tricks, stunts and escapes he actually does. He is probably 1 of the best since his idol Houdini. One of the bigest things I like about him is that he debunks the ones that actually claim to have powers and he never claims that what he does has anything to do with powers or "real magic". Houdini was the same way. I'm sure some of the tricks that he's done that are obviously set up have been out of pressure for ratings and possibly conceived by writers instead of cris. The one I pointed out earlier is the only really blatantly obvious trick that I've seen. There is no way he's going to really take a box cutter and cut into a strangers head. It's not hard to figure out the guy was wearing a skull cap with a blood pack underneath and the card tucked inside. Personally I found the trick a little distasteful also. The trick I mention on the competition show where dabbler's video came from was also obviously set up in advance where everyone in the audience had the same number written on their hands at the end of the trick. For me for an illusion to work it has to have a certain amount of believability or plausibility. At the very least they have to find a way to give it that. On TV that is harder to accomplish because it's so easy to fake a trick on TV. On most of his shows cris manages to do that, that one is the only one that I personally have seen where I believe that he failed to do that.

What amuses me is that there are people that can watch an act billed as a performance (for entertainment), and then go to a person who does the same thing, billed as a clinical/spiritual ritual. Again I ask, does a magician believe he is sawing a woman in half?

yeah there's a few of them out there that you have to wonder about like david copperfield he claims that all his tricks are real and that he's a magician doing "real magic" I wonder if that's an act or if he really believes that.

I have never heard of a someone using a green/blue screen. Do you know why? because there are better and more cost effective ways of getting things done. Why should this matter? Because I study the craft. I know a lot of ins and out of the trade. Just because I'm not making tons of cash doesn't mean that I'm just blowing smoke up your ass.

The visoe that dabbler posted was from the show Phenomenon and was basically the equivalent of the magicians version of American Idol. Chris angel needed his ego stroked and attacked first. What you claim on stage and what you claim off stage are two different things. If I am an actor and I say I am Houdini, while in the role of Houdini, whats the harm? Does that mean I will walk around claiming to be Houdini 24/7 surely not. There is a very old saying in magic. "A magician is merely an actor playing the part of a magician." Calling someone out on national TV is just being a bad sport but it makes for great ratings.

It's entertainment people. Why people get so miffed about being deceived is beyond me. You might as well go scream at mommy for telling you the tooth fairy was real when you were little. It's fun and games and meant to be enjoyable.

As far as the question of "Does a magician really believe he is sawing a woman in half?" Its a double edged sword. Yes and no. He has to believe it in the moment to sell the effect. After the fact he can know better. You need to conviction to make it run smoothly and be a good performer. If you, as a performer, don't believe then how are others supposed to?

Showmanship, verses actual mystic. Uri Geller is a fine example, by putting out books that allude to teaching how (with the mind alone) people can bend metal items... that is where the line is crossed, unless those books present the proper slight of hand technic.

Uri has been a "stand alone" ever since he burst on the scene. Another magician who does the same feats has been a consultant of Angels for years. By the way, this magician is a legend in certain magic circles for his thinking and approach to the specific field that Uri is in ;)

I never said you were blowing smoke. I also pointed out that, that is one of many possible camera tricks that could be used. I'm just saying it's hard to believe anything you see on TV anymore. The opening to the olympics was a perfect example they faked the fireworks in the opening ceremony. I really didn't understand that since china invented fireworks, seems like they would have wanted to show off. I'm just saying my personal preference because of today's technology would be to see the tricks live. I think it's wrong to claim that you have all these powers and make money off of people selling books and such promoting that. It's one thing to have an act it's another to promote it as real.

Whether it be smoke and mirrors or not, I like what Blaine and Angel do simply for the entertainment value. (and it doesn't hurt that Angel is soooooo easy on the eyes!!) I like Criss' syle...hard rocker look. As for believing in what they do is real, well, I don't believe much of anything in our pop culture.

BB, ~*V

I believe that what they do is exactly that just "smoke and mirrors" implying that the stunts they perform are just carefully crafted illusions some better than others. I don't believe what they do is "real". I only take it in as entertainment. Nothing more.

well i tell you the smoke and mirror is the site i m member there i respect it highly...

another...

David Blaine I respect most...

he is my admired personality...

he is doing the same set of exercises which i learnt in divine yoga....

he is doing it on professional level masses depprive of that set of exercise...

due to those exercises...

he became good hypnotist first and afterword true siddhies (mystyc Powers) he is gaining very fast and at present within moment he can through many planes at the time... and his daily exercises strenghtening his chakra very fast and those chakras become powerful day by day... no one can dodge the death within moment unless he did those psychic exercises for much period even at this level, he is at much lower level of the result expected of those exercises this means he do not do the exercise most of the time and doing it daily for only few time say 90 minutes to 2 hours...

he became hypnotist within the year and i think he is now distant hypnotist and reiki master too ...

well this set of exercise have one feature that evil element this set remove from your mind and inner as powerful as you become.... coz this set makes conscious rule over the mind with the help of intellact. so he is not evil forever

As a kid I oohh and ahhhed over these people thinking they were special and magical. Then when I learned they were tricks it was like learning that santa wasn't real.

Sometimes the illusions these people create are spectacular and entertaining. But when they don't follow through with their suggested attempt or dare, it is rather disappointing and makes you rather cynical about these people.

Mind you I look for their failure now, that I find entertaining lmao.

well all illusionist do not do only tricks some time they do art of psych too such as mass hypmotizm and david blaine went few steps ahead like david copperfield...

he did use meditation in extreme from 2000 onward and now he did this jump of high conscious. very high conscious normal person can not do this...

nothing remain as it is and he maintained the line between change of forms.

The ethics comes into play with intent, is the intent to make people accept that what is being done is performance of slight of hand, or prop? Perhaps under the pretense of mystical powers (the patter).

Or is the intent to claim to demonstrate that mystic powers are real, and the person demonstrating them is controling such powers, and have made a book that shows how you can tap into that power (should you be devoted enough). The ethics violation is that the person who buys that book, and pays for seminars, is not going to be able to bend a spoon with their mind. Mediums have to include in their ads For Entertainment Purposes Only, yet the Parlor entertainers I know, consistantely have people make very personal request, of during sittings, like a siiting is some form of clinical thearaphy . The only spirits that are raised should be Sociogeist, or the spirit of the group gathered to be entertained.

To entertain the beliefs of people is not hard at all, and goes back to the Fakirs, and medicine shows, and carries on through Infomercials.(which are not as entertaining as medicine shows once where.) So what are you investing in Uri Geller. Or others that claim to have Abilities? What are you willing to disregard to cling to that investment?

I also want to mention the Million Dollar Challenge is still unclaimed.

I would suggest your thoughts turn internally and ask what you wish to get out of watching any of them. Perhaps there are other avenues of receiving that information.

If it is entertainment, and you are entertained then you have succeeded with respect to yourself.

Seek what you seek, do not accept and push information/entertainment you do not want unto yourself.

I say illusionists magicians or what ever you want to call them

they are artists whether its real or not decieving us or not
its the fact its a dying art form and I hate to say it but given a few years maybe a dead art form at least in the public eye.And thats due to so many people getting pissy about whether its real or not.As many has stated as a kid I ooohed and ahhhed,what changed ?
what honestly has changed the way we had to grow up?
maybe this is why i still look into this art open minded and find it highly entertaining I love the whole thrill of trying to figure out HOW it was done.So either i can attempt it myself or know something another is trying to find out.

well its case of discipline too... one should not be tricked by those bookseller. o yes the self healing the vipyasana (vipassana meditation commune is formed in so large numbers and many in usa too with the huge university capacity... it is not the trick... its the etertainment... like this we should respect each art which dont trick the peepal like world record of breathe holding and other trickless demonstrations...

hypnotizm is not hand made trick... its waves of mind force channeled into the hypnotized... reiki art is not fake it cures even in tibet they follow the art of painless death...

there are relation with the mother nature which they uses and art the art of high psych

It comes down to a matter of ethics, in the people that practice the art/craft of illusion, under what pretense they practice, and package their trade. If they are claim to be healing people (then why have they not revolutionized the planets health care system? if they claim mystic powers, why have they not produced viable energy sources? The alluded power is only demonstrated to small gatherings of people. When all the mystic things they claim to do, are(and have been) duplicated by performance artist, one can only deduct through sensible reasoning that it is one and the same, illusion. The pretense is the only separation.

It baffles me how a person can watch a person do a stage trick, and perhaps even watch an exposer on that trick, and then turn around and go to some "clinic" and pay up to three times as much as the performance for a sitting, that uses a variation on the same trick they watched in a billed performance. It is no longer watch the person on stage pull a rabbit out of a hat, it is watch the "alternative spiritualist" pull your loved one out of the ether. Entertaining a persons hope.. ? Ethics in practice, should one be able to sue a spiritual healer?

Stage magic is for entertainment. Sometimes things go wrong, it's life and why would anyone feel cheated if 99 percent of the time the guy did fine? We all have our bad days and moments. It seem ludicrous to blame the guy for a stunt that went wrong. They should expect the more dangerous things to sometimes go wrong.

I didn't see this. I like Criss Angel but sometimes I find his illusions too much for me. His is close to the horror magicians and I just don't like to watch that even though I prefer that genre in movies and scifi/fantasy and the like. It's just too real for me and I know the illusionist can die if he makes a mistake and mistakes are made. The guy probably knew he had erred and it wasn't going to work...he would have been harmed. If they want to sue that is stupid...do they care more about money or his welfare? I didn't see it so I will now read to see what exactly happened but the bottom line as I said before stage magic is not occult magick and it doesn't always work unfortunately for one reason or another...guess he had a VERY bad day. Perhaps whoever staged things didn't do something right...who knows. I am sure the guy is totally humiliated. That is difficult if an illusion goes awry. People need to be more charitable after all its just a job and why should they let themselves be hurt?? Most acts have to be insured and perhaps the every 15 minutes was a stipulation of the insurance coverage to be sure the illusionist was not physically harmed.

There are some old Carnival Magic Tricks, Or more precise Feats of Daring, one is the neck of Iron, and the other is the Stairs of Swords, both very dangerous feats to perform, the performer can (and they have) died or been serverely injured. As the threshold is pushed, so is the bar. With the occult running a more personal performance, along with the self claimed mystic performers. It is all a matter of "catching" them in the act. Are we not secretly hoping to catch a blunder, at magic shows? As some attend car races for accidents?

Magicians and such are entertainers who are able to play ith our prceptions in order to create the impression that something has happened. This can be through slight of hand, distraction or more complicated technical feats
Houdini was a world class locksmith, who was also physically well-developed so that he could change his shape subtly when chained to give himself extra leverage.

Vaudaville Feats, and The late medicine show really played on simple folk with such tricks (based on parlor magic) some even adopted from French Gypsy Folk Tradition (Mentalism, Mesmerism) all entertainment based, the ethics is in the pretense, and billing. Sometime after The case that created the For Entertainment Only disclaimer, created in the wake of worldwar two, when Fortune/Spiritualist Parlors where fleecing war widows, right domn the street from stage performers that performed the same "mystic" feats. The difference, one audience is their to watch a show, the performer needs to be good with not only the show man ship/patter, but with the routine, and technic.. On the other hand the Parlor performer, needs the pretense to mask the lack of technic. Playing on a persons transparancy.

What about concerts, I have been to concerts when things don't go right. It's all about showmanship, I don't care if the magic is real or not, I am not watching for reality, I am watching to be entertained. That my friends is what these illusionists are, entertainers, nothing else. Why do we always read too much into things?

Why do people read to much into things? Sensationalism, it is thepart of the reason children that once believed in Santa Claus cannot wait to support another kids belief in Santa Claus, if we don't believe it is real, or want others to believe it is real, or others to think that we believe it is real.

Some are just too much into it, Picture a person jumping up during an illusionist show and screaming ..

"Please Don't Let Him Stick That Sword Into That Box!!!!"

People that blur the line between make believe, and pretend.. scare me more then Smoke and Mirrors.