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xXxSKULLYxXx
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19:48:14 Oct 03 2008
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A lot of people in these threads just say , "No , i dont believe!"
or
"Something like that is not possible!"

Do you think this all comes down to personal experiences or can someones mind can be changed with facts, or a hard study on X matter?

just wondering...




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xXxSKULLYxXx
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19:50:50 Oct 03 2008
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Skepticism

(n.) The doctrine that no fact or principle can be certainly known; the tenet that all knowledge is uncertain; Pyrrohonism; universal doubt; the position that no fact or truth, however worthy of confidence, can be established on philosophical grounds; critical investigation or inquiry, as opposed to the positive assumption or assertion of certain principles.

(n.) An undecided, inquiring state of mind; doubt; uncertainty.

(n.) A doubting of the truth of revelation, or a denial of the divine origin of the Christian religion, or of the being, perfections, or truth of God.

taken from:

http://www.brainyquote.com/words/sk/skepticism220198.html



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CrimsonScarab
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20:01:55 Oct 03 2008
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I see nothing wrong with being a Skeptic. If we go in believing everything, then we learn nothing. With Skepticism, we are driven to search out the truth and learn facts. Yes there is a lot of Skepticism on VR; and that is because we have our own views and we are learning about another's.



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Undervampsgaze
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20:03:50 Oct 03 2008
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We all have our different opinions and that is lovely. Some are skeptics and some are true believers. I think since we are all different types of people here, we will have different views on threads as well. I like to see it from other peoples eyes, and really like being shown facts and learning new things.. I always say, "keep up the threads."



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FacelessUnknown
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20:52:05 Oct 03 2008
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I beleive CrimsonScarab hit the nail on the head. Without skepticism, we wouldn't drive ourselves to know the truth.



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dabbler
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21:51:41 Oct 03 2008
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I find that skeptics do a good job of placing things in context.

I also find that in most belief systems, there are varied degrees of belief.. this creates sects in most philosopies, religions, politics, and even sports. Divisions that argue among themselves.



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meeper
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22:10:46 Oct 03 2008
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What do I think about skepticism? This is a vampire website- whether we believe we are vampires or just have an affinity for them, it requires us to have an open mind.

In my experience, skepticism isn't overly abundant on this website. I see far more posts suggesting that "anything is possible" than of people questioning or holding up science in the face of belief. How many other websites can you go to where people have an adamant belief in vampires, lycans, aliens, bigfoot, nessie, ghosts, and magick?

Don’t get me wrong- I’m not closed minded about any of those topics but there is something to be said for a healthy dose of skepticism to weed out the incredulous from the real.



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dabbler
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22:19:24 Oct 03 2008
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I find the ranks of skeptics include many people that have become jaded by others claiming to have esoteric knowledge that is somehow exclusive. People that, at one time, were open minded to such things are now people awaiting demonstrations of paranormal claims. I am not close minded to a demonstration of what people claim. I am cynical of the overwhelming amount of people claiming to have witnessed Para-normal talents being demonstrated, yet not one person can provide a viewable demonstration to me. It leads me to question whether they have any accountability, even to those that agree with them.

The sub-division of the occult is another thing that stands out to most skeptics, surly the Occult is sub-divided, just as religion, politics, etc. Even science has divisions in some fields.



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Confusion
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22:25:54 Oct 03 2008
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It would be because they may be realists and have no time to believe in things that are ridiculous in nature and/or have no proof/evidence/anything at all to back them up besides ''accounts'' from those who have ''seen'' or ''experienced'' them.



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dabbler
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22:38:25 Oct 03 2008
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That is the cynicism that is natural. To be told over and over again, I have seen it, to which a natural reply is made, "Can you show me?" To which a person usually replies."Sure watch this video.", Or come over my house and see it.

Yet in occult matters, it is a common reply,"You just need an open mind." I have an open mind.. I am open minded to a person that claims to be able to do something demonstrating that claimed ability. The fact that there is a 1,000,000 dollar purse for anybody able to prove such talents, as yet unclaimed, makes a pretty solid case against occult members and practitioners of the paranormal.

The Magicians Society spoke up in defense of the entertainment Mediums. The whole psychic industry is under the Gaming Commission, the same people that police casinos. I rarely blame the cynical people, especially those that have had family members bilked out of money by frauds; Money that could have been used to build the spirits of a family who lost a loved one, to lift them out of their grief. If people want to place/invest personal things into something then fine, but they must realize that they are not a majority. I accept the Occult as a manifestation of Parlor entertainment, the only spirits that are stirred are 'social-geist'. people that abuse such things and lure people in with clinical, and religious over tones will be exposed for what they are. To be naive enough to think that skeptics were never believers is a flaw in logic. That works in the skeptics favor, when debating rhetoric from Occult members.



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dabbler
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22:53:07 Oct 03 2008
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Along with accepting any belief comes the set topic freeze as well, when a group of believers get together, what dominates the conversation?

Even in circles of believers their is pressure to accept more detailed interpretations of beliefs. Sometimes these lead to heated debate. So it is not just the skeptics, that oppose some aspects of Religion, politics.. occult, philosophy, junk science, pseudo-science, conspiracy buffs, and the such.. all fringe elements.

when I find that people feel rejected as a person because someone fails to accept with enthuism their beliefs, I question whether their intent is for their own personal assurance, or to replace a lack of social dynamic/skill.



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dabbler
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22:55:00 Oct 03 2008
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Yes By the way, A mind can be changed with facts, if one person that claimed to have psychic abilities presented a Video that would be factual evidence, evidence that could be examined.



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dabbler
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23:17:23 Oct 03 2008
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Here is a sample of "Why People Believe Weird Things", I feel this is a good summery of the skeptic view. For the source Google the Title.

Skeptics have been treated to several publications in recent years which might indicate that there is some hope for rationality after all. Sagan's Demon-Haunted World and Randi's Encyclopedia, for example, have done quite well. Michael Shermer's book is yet another attack on irrationality and unreason to find its way into print. Yet, lest we get too optimistic we might take a lesson from one of Shermer's debunking experiences.

In the prologue, Shermer gives an account of James Van Praagh whom he calls "the master of cold-reading in the psychic world." He describes Van Praagh's success and how he wowed audiences on NBC's New Age talk show The Other Side. Shermer then tells us how he debunked Van Praagh on Unsolved Mysteries. Yet, none of the others in the audience was sympathetic to Shermer. One woman even told him that his behavior was "inappropriate" because he was destroying people's hopes in their time of grief. (Van Praagh specializes in being contacted by anybody's dead relatives.) Van Praagh is still going strong, having appeared recently (Dec. 10, 1997) on the Larry King Live show. He said he could "feel" Larry's dead parents and even pointed out where in the room these feelings were coming from. James took phone calls on the air and, once given a name, he started telling the audience what he was "hearing" or "feeling". He fished for positive feedback and got it, indicating that he really was being contacted by spirits who wanted to tell their loved ones that being dead ain't so bad when you've got a guy like James to talk to on Larry King Live. Larry didn't ask Van Praagh why he thought that billions and billions of dead souls were turning away from eternal life to get inside Van Praagh's head. Had Van Praagh told Larry that his parents were sorry for abusing him as a child and now request that Larry go public about his sadistic sexual practices with animals, Van Praagh would be history. But the charlatans of the world wouldn't be where they are if they tried to tell people what they don't want to hear. As long as they feed the hopes and dreams of their victims, the psychics will flourish. Of course, if they can't handle their finances they'll go broke like the Psychic Friends Network did. Otherwise, if they keep feeding the fish, the fish will return.

So, why do people believe weird things? "More than any other, the reason people believe weird things," says Shermer, "is because they want to. . . .It feels good. It is comforting. It is consoling." Secondly, weird beliefs offer "immediate gratification." People like weird beliefs because they are simple. Weird beliefs also satisfy the quest for significance: they satisfy our moral needs and our desire that life be meaningful. Finally, he says, people believe weird things because weird things give them hope.

You would think Shermer would know, for he has walked through the valley of weirdness as a believer and a challenger. He's been abducted by aliens and had colonic irrigation. He's been to the chiropractor to get aligned and balanced. He's been to many alternative health practitioners to get "purified" and "detoxified". He's been Rolfed and wrongly diagnosed by an iridologist.

He's also been on a number of talk shows where he has faced not only psychics but those who deny that the Holocaust ever happened. He's confronted creationists and spiritualists on national television. He started Skeptic magazine and the Skeptic's Society. He has written many articles on various weird beliefs. In short, Michael Shermer has entered the lion's den, walked through the valley of death and known firsthand the wailing and gnashing of teeth.

http://skepdic.com/refuge/weird.html



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Confusion
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23:27:40 Oct 03 2008
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dabbler -


''Yes By the way, A mind can be changed with facts, if one person that claimed to have psychic abilities presented a Video that would be factual evidence, evidence that could be examined. ''


A video tape wouldn't prove anything. Tapes can be modified easily. It would have to be real life, concrete proof.



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dabbler
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23:29:58 Oct 03 2008
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Very true.

Here is another reason Skeptics are handy for.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/morris_cerullo_exposed.htm

MORRIS CERULLO EXPOSED!

By John Davies

Smelling Like? Morris Cerullo is an ordained Assembly of God Minister and Healing Evangelist. His personal ministry mansion and two-storey home is over 12,000 sq ft. It is behind two secured gates in the richest neighborhood in America and has been estimated at over $12 million. Mr. Cerullo and his wife are the only two that live there, and report that they are on the foreign field 70% of the time... what a waste of God's money! Morris Cerullo's sky limousine, a Gulstream G4, is estimated to be worth $50 million. He has two full-time pilots and a stewardess who said in recent depositions that the plane has a gold-plated interior. He has had three similar private jets since. Morris Cerullo claims to be a miracle maker, but he is under investigation for being a money taker. John Paul Warren, a former Senior Executive with Morris Cerullo World Evangelism (MCWE) has filed a lawsuit claiming he was ousted from the MCWE organization after confronting Cerullo about "unethical and fraudulent fund-raising techniques." This is the second such lawsuit against Cerullo. Warren, who is a highly respected, third-generation, ordained Assemblies of God Minister, filed his suit in May of 2000 in San Diego County Superior Court. He is represented by attorneys Dean Broyles and Tim Rutherford of San Diego, and Hunter Lundy, based in Lake Charles, Louisiana. Lundy successfully represented Marvin Gorman in his suit against televangelist Jimmy Swaggart in 1991, which resulted in a large verdict against Swaggart." Cerullo refers to himself as `Dr. Cerullo,' although he does not have any degree earning him this title," says Lundy. "He runs MCWE from offices in San Diego, which he calls `mission control,' but he does not serve as the minister of any physical church or congregation." Cerullo raised millions of dollars and bought the defunct PTL Network, theme park and conference grounds from bankruptcy court after Televangelist Jim Bakker's career ended when he was convicted and sent to federal prison for fraud."



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Sinora
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23:35:31 Oct 03 2008
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Personal experience is a wonderful thing.

So are skeptics.

When the two are brought together there is great potential for growth on both sides.



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xXxSKULLYxXx
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23:38:53 Oct 03 2008
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Know any more frauds that got discovered because of skeptics?



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meeper
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00:06:50 Oct 04 2008
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Some man made crop circles have been busted in the past. Flying objects on a more careful examination have turned out to be known planes flying in the area. Obviously the Bigfoot in the cooler recently allowed us to view how many people were quick to believe that finally a real big foot had been captured. The skeptics pointed to the men's character as well as the similarity between the iced big foot and Bigfoot suites.



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dabbler
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00:22:23 Oct 04 2008
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People who claim divine or mystic abilities, have been not only been exposed by skeptics, they have also been exposed by faulty performances of things that are claimed to be demonstrations of PSI/ESP/Phenomena.



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dabbler
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00:26:27 Oct 04 2008
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Skeptics are also known to investigate financial claims as well.

Paranormal Claims Investigation is notably different then Paranormal investigation. A para Normal claims investigator is likely to request a demonstration of the Claim, if a demonstration is arranged (Say a video is created to be examined) then a ParaNormal Investigator will become involved.



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dabbler
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00:36:14 Oct 04 2008
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It should also be noted that even exposed frauds can retain their followers. Just as cases that incite those that believe. One such case is The Tina Recsh (sp) case. Sadly that case had a tragic out come in the long run, something actual was over looked the whole time, an over sight that had a very tragic unfolding. There was a moment she could have been helped.



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ivorybliss
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00:43:11 Oct 04 2008
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Most people are influenced by facts. Most people don't believe it until they see it.

Which I find funny that most people need to see to believe things... yet they believe in higher powers such as god.

interesting theory



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dabbler
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00:45:50 Oct 04 2008
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It should not be a question of needing to believe a claim made by someone that regarding something that they (supposedly) can demonstrate, no faith is needed in the case that a person claims to have a physical demonstration of something.

I will post an example of this if you wish.



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Confusion
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00:49:17 Oct 04 2008
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ivorybliss -


''Which I find funny that most people need to see to believe things... yet they believe in higher powers such as god.''


Not everyone believes in a high power. Again comes the 'fact' option they'd need to believe in it.

As it were to many both are ludicrious.



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dabbler
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00:54:10 Oct 04 2008
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I have asked questions both as a believer, and as a skeptic, and I have been frustrated when I am told, I just need to accept it as a paradox. I have been argued with as both a fellow believer, and as a skeptic.



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dabbler
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01:00:11 Oct 04 2008
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Skeptics develop their critical thinking, they avoid common Faulty reasoning.


http://mcckc.edu/longview/CTAC/psych5.htm

FAULTY THINKING

Avoid oversimplifying/overgeneralizing/fallaciesPsychological thinking requires that observations and conclusions based on observations avoid simplistic, fallacious reasoning. Common fallacies in our reasoning include the following:

Appeal to ignorance. Argues that some claim is true because it cannot be proven to be false, or the opposite: that some claim must be false because it cannot be proven to be true.Ex: No one has proved that animals dream, so it must not be true.

Slippery slope. If the first step in a "possible" series of events occurs, the other possible steps in the series must inevitably occur.Ex: Once someone uses an illegal drug like marijuana, they will become heroin addicts eventually.

False alternatives.(also known as False Dilemma) This involves "either/or" thinking in which some classification is presumed to be exclusive or exhaustive, such as when we overlook the alternatives that exist between the extremes of two poles.Ex: Any experience that does not kill you will make you stronger.

Hasty generalizations. If we tend to form a general conclusion based on an exceptional case, or on a very small sample, or on a biased sample, we may have overgeneralized.Ex: I know that boys raised by single mothers are effeminate, because thats what happened to my cousin Michael.

Questionable analogies. We may sometimes try to compare apples to oranges, or try to make two situations seem more similar that they are.Ex: When you put a bridge girder under too much stress, it breaks. The same thing happens with people.



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Ahava
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03:02:10 Oct 04 2008
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Everything is relative, I believe. Its a matter of what the individual wishes to think.

A weak mind can be easily swayed, like an illusionist with a crowd. One person thinks they saw something, the person next to them reacts in a similar way, so they assume they saw something amazing. What the first person doesn't know is that the person who initially reacted, was on the illusionists payroll.

Its all smoke and mirrors...everything, including life itself.
Just my thought.



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dabbler
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03:30:19 Oct 04 2008
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When we put an emotional stock in such things that please our senses then that is sensationalism, not spirituality.



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DravenG
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03:40:35 Oct 04 2008
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Well being that majority of people only believe what they can physically see, sure its makes people skeptical. But if you truely believe in your faith/spiritual sense , you see what you want to see.



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dabbler
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03:56:31 Oct 04 2008
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That implies something is offered to observe, if a person claims to be able to Bend a spoon (Uri.. cough.. Geller) they need to demonstrate that ability when requested.. or their claim is just that a claim, it is not a statement of faith. (Faith:belief without evidence.) it is a claim. One that can be demonstrated, an scrutinized as well. If I tell you I can take your money/investment in my upstart program.. would you want a demonstration, or at least a accountable reference?

Or would you accept my proposal on faith?



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Andie
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10:02:42 Oct 04 2008
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dabbler
You have said it all. After reading your all your posts in this matter I feel that there is nothing more to say. I have to hand it to you.
*Bows for dabbler*

You can close this thread now, there is nothing more to say.



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Beastt17
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10:48:07 Oct 04 2008
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I guess my first question would have to be; "Who is the skeptic?"

Different people here participate in, and read, different threads. So each of us gets a slightly different sampling. But to provide a quick example which illustrates the reason for my confusion, I was recently in a thread where I saw someone proclaiming to believe in the supernatural, yet labeled the Big Bang "trash". So who is the skeptic?

When someone believes something without evidence, then ignores the evidence supporting another concept, I wouldn't call them a "believer" or a "skeptic". I'm not sure what you'd call them. Is there a word for a person who chooses all of their ideas based on a coin toss or a roll of the dice? How else can one accept something which is completely devoid of supporting evidence, as true, while proclaiming something accompanied by overwhelming evidence, "trash"?

That said, skepticism is a good thing. Think about where we might be if no one ever decided to challenge the ideas of the status quo. I tend to believe it's a good thing that we're no longer tossing our kids into volcanoes. I think medicine is an appropriate replacement for spiritual ceremonies designed to rid sick people of "evil spirits".

I suppose some might call me a skeptic. But I think it's more demonstrably correct to call me "consistent". I don't pick and choose beliefs based on how they strike me from an emotional point of view. I tend to want to weigh the evidence, to study the assertions, the mechanisms and the claims and see if they hold any validity. It's the same thing most people do in making the vast majority of their decisions every day.

But those which I suspect are the target of the label "believers", while utilizing the same methods I use for most decisions, abandon those methods as soon as their emotions come into play. They're willing to apply logic and reason to evidence, until they hold a strong emotional investment in the outcome, and find the outcome contrary to what they wish to believe. At that point, they abandon reason, ignore evidence, and avoid logic in order to believe what best serves their emotional desires.

It's worth a bit of thought to consider how appropriate it is to make one's choices regarding belief/disbelief, based purely on emotions. What would happen if such a process weren't reserved only for supernatural assertions? I could check my bank account, review the funds in my wallet and see that I only have $96.00. And yet because there is a $500.00 item I want, I simply ignore the evidence and reason which demonstrates that I have only $96.00 and insist that despite the lack of supporting evidence, I actually have enough to purchase the $500.00 item, simply to serve my emotional desires? Is that a good thing?

When people fail to properly weigh the evidence and place their emotions ahead of reason, they end up adopting all kinds of superstitions. And superstitions have a long history of causing all kinds of harm to many, many people. It also degrades the average intelligence of a populace at large. I don't consider hurting people over false beliefs to be a good thing and I recognize that only through intellect do we ever find ways to improve the quality of life for ourselves and for the rest of the living things on the planet.

Want to call me a "skeptic"?

Thank you. :-)



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Nicnic
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11:22:12 Oct 04 2008
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I don't believe in something until it is reasonably proven to be possible. I don't consider that skepticism. I consider it common sense.

And I need it to be reasonably proven possible by my own research, or by research of those that I consider to have some knowledge of whatever I am attempting to discover. I usually require both because all brainiacs have their off days;)



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Anise
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12:33:38 Oct 04 2008
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There is a difference between skepticism and cycnicism.

Skeptics are more question what is real, trying to find hidden truths.

Cynics are the ones who will just say "No, it can't be."



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mysticwinds
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13:52:23 Oct 04 2008
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If a subject or subject interest me. I go into full depths into studying it.

Not by books alone, or what I see on television. I want to experience it. I have went on Paranormal investigations with a small team, I have journeyed to different states to visit mediums who never laid eyes on me.

I have went to different Churches. I want to experience for myself.

Books & videos are guidelines, it is the research on being there to explore what interest me the most.

I look for proof. Books are great guidelines and videos, but one has to look for a way to experience one wants to learn.

Do I always get the answers I am looking for, sometimes, but there is always more to discover if one wishes to pursue in the knowledge of looking for the answers. Will I ever find everything I wish to pursue the answers to? Most likely not in this lifetime.

I look for answers with no expectations as I walk through the doors that are opened to me.



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Beastt17
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19:58:10 Oct 04 2008
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Re: "Skeptics are more question what is real, trying to find hidden truths."

I can only disagree. Skeptics are looking for truths, not just "hidden truths". Sometimes the truth is found by refuting the assertion that a truth is somehow, "hidden". Truths tend to be there for the taking. That some choose to pass them by in favor of service to their emotions doesn't make them any less true.


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hottubmolly
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21:03:48 Oct 04 2008
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skepticism isnt such a bad thing to embrace. it inspires one to seek out further information as opposed to blindly believing things.

now cynics is totally different. its more about bursting bubbles than being wary.



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Ravensbloodzero
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21:06:25 Oct 04 2008
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I think there will always be people that deny something even if the evidence is clear in front of them. Others can become believers from being skeptics due to experiences and, less often perhaps, from close study of events or phenomena. I believe it's healthy to maintain some level of skepticism rather than being a blind believer of everything.



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dabbler
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23:57:15 Oct 04 2008
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I was cynical once, but I got so jaded about being cynical..



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Beastt17
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01:47:14 Oct 05 2008
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I would say that it's easy to get lost within the labels. If one person believes that science has the answers and that there is no evidence of anything beyond the physical, and therefore, no cause to adopt assertions about the non-physical, are they a "believer" in science or a "skeptic" concerning non-physical realms?

It's simply a matter of perspective. No matter what you believe, you still believe something. So doesn't that make you a "believer"?

And if you disbelieve anything, then aren't you at least skeptical about it and therefore a "skeptic"?

I think we're all "skeptics" and "believers" From the perspective of one who looks primarily to science, those who discount Big Bang, General Relativity or Theory of Gravity would be skeptics.

From the perspective of one who believes in non-physical realms, non-physical states of human consciousness and undiscovered human abilities outside of the physical, the person appealing to the demonstrations of science is the "skeptic".

It's all about perspective. These terms do not refer to absolutes anymore than do the words "positive" and "negative" or the words "good" and "evil". Shift footing and suddenly good becomes evil. Have an intellectual epiphany and suddenly the "skeptic" is the "believer".

We seem to have those who appeal to science and the physical and those who appeal to the mystical and non-physical. Both are believers and both are skeptics.



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Angitia41
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20:31:21 Oct 21 2008
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I need to see it to believe it. I want facts, pictures and documents.



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Beastt17
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21:30:33 Oct 21 2008
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There is nothing with requesting objective evidence. In fact, without that all you have is an assertion. An assertion is simply a claim. So if someone makes a claim, does that make the claim true? If you said "no", then you're a skeptic.

I've asked the same question repeatedly on several threads; can you think of a time when objective evidence supported one side of an issue while subjective evidence supported a different side and he subjective evidence was finally verified as being correct?

It never happens. There is a reason for that.



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dabbler
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I have noticed people make more claims then they are able to demonstrate, so many people claim to have "gifts", and then they simply want others to believe their claim, how simple is it for them to demonstrate the gift they claim?

We need more Claims investigators then we do "Paranormal investigators. When even those that share beliefs with people who makes such claims are cynical.. that is very telling. even isf I was a fellow believer I wouldn't give credit to a majority of people making claims. I do like entertainment based on craft, and skill.

it is all the mystic stuff (laid on like make-up on a hooker) that is really creating more cynical view of the occult. If it wasn't for the opposition of skeptics they would turn on their own. Just as religions do in their own ranks, argue details, and intepretations, or how one way of doing a sacrament is better then the other..

Does questioning what one beliefs simply stop after one believes, No It doesn't, but people seem to accept vaguer answers to those questions.



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Beastt17
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21:37:46 Oct 21 2008
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Sorry,

"There is nothing" wrong "with requesting objective evidence."

I unintentionally omitted a word.

Objective evidence is a standard by which we live our lives. If you plunk down your credit card for a new television, do you want to see the carton loaded into your car? Do you want to see a sales-floor model? Or is it enough that someone else tells you they've seen one and it's remarkable?

If you start to walk down the stairs, but don't see any stairs, do you just close your eyes and step off because you're a "true believer"? Or do you trust the infallibility of objective evidence and step away from the edge?



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dabbler
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21:44:27 Oct 21 2008
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But if you make enough claims, isn't that enough? What if the person has all the jargon down? Surly that accounts for something??



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hottubmolly
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22:35:15 Oct 21 2008
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in your staircase scenario, I'd reply:



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CryingDutchess
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22:48:26 Oct 21 2008
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LOL! Nice artwork...
I am a cynic, I enjoy finding the hidden card up the sleeve. I don't like to be tricked. I don't like to exert thought on things that do not exist. I will poke holes in theories like a bully near a kid's balloon. This doesn't mean I don't enjoy fantasy -- why else would I have been possessed to get a PM account on a place like VR?

However, I relish the thought of possibility. I am a fan of the "what if" scenarios. For every bit of falsehood, there is a fact hidden that rings true. They're hard to uncover, but when they are! It's exciting. lol, I guess that makes me bi-cynical?



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fuckxthisxshit
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Skepticism is basically the way we find truth...if everyone just automatically believed everything they were told then none of the important discoveries in human history would've been made and people may even still believe the world is flat



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FireSerpent
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00:10:11 Oct 22 2008
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I think having direct experience is needed.Being skeptical is a good thing if your not just dismissing things as untrue but putting your effort into exploring and learning.Then you can have first hand knowledge and choose what to believe.



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DeadlyXDesire
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00:30:03 Oct 22 2008
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It is good to be skeptical about things...otherwise you would just have a bunch of gullible people walking around believing anything they were told.

Without skepticism we would not be able to get to the truth of some things.



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LordFangor
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14:41:32 Oct 22 2008
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Skepticism about what you read on here or anywhere else is healthy. However, it seems that to accomplish goals one needs to have an unwavering belief that it can be accomplished.

So, if you are convinced you can accomplish a thing/task you will. If you think you will fail you will.

This is not the same thing as believing ET lives next door or in the origin of vampires etc.



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SteelTalons
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18:24:27 Oct 22 2008
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I think it's healthy in today's society to exhibit a little bit of skepicism. It's almost a matter of self preservation. I also think that it's equally important to hold on to your own individual beliefs... spiritually at least.



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cryingmoon
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19:48:00 Oct 22 2008
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for me i am a little of a skeptic

i do believe there are things out there that people have not found or can explain,

i do not believe people who claim they are a vampire in a way they act like the people from tv, i am sure there are vampires out there,

i do not believe when people say i am a wizard of the 10 circle of the 10th day, i my self am a card reader, a charm maker, and kitchen witch,

but for most things i do need to see proof, because i don't take people for there word alone, have meet to many posers in my life



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dabbler
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20:04:57 Oct 22 2008
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When I see people investing in sensational claims, and the people that make them, I can only see the list of suckers grow longer. Then when I see people that have the core assurance minus all the sensational attachments it stands out.

I can believe I am going to get up every morning and go jogging, I can believe that it is going to help my health. But I would rather be assured that it will. I have confidence in exercise as well, but if an "instructor" tells me the exercise will put me in better health in a quarter of the time.. I will be less likely to believe that, I will still have confidence in exercise though. Is it Stimulation that people want from their faith/belief? Or a settling assurance for when they are ready to die?



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DeadlyXDesire
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02:00:48 Oct 25 2008
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Dabbler....I do not believe that people have faith just to stimulate themselves or to feel better about dying, some may, but I think having a belief in something is what gives people the strength that they may need in their lives. For some it may be a sense of self or a sense of belonging to something greater.



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juanaldamuy
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03:17:51 Oct 25 2008
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A persons mind can be change through experience, study/facts or sometimes just to fit in. Myself, if I haven't
experienced it I'll read and find out as much facts I can to change or support how I feel about something. I hope this answers your question.



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Beastt17
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09:02:12 Oct 26 2008
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Skepticism is the only thing that allows us to accept truth and reject falsehoods. And it is possible for someone to change their position if they're open to accepting the truth, even when the truth isn't what they wanted it to be.

Otherwise, they're destined to hold belief in falsehoods and deny reality.



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RazaelRiezen
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10:57:47 Oct 26 2008
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theres a difference in being skeptical and simply not believing, some people cant grasp the thought of there being more then what they can see or touch.Others have the open mindedness to be able to decide they will believe what ever until its proven false.

skeptical views are IE I dont think that would be real,not straight out that doesnt exist or I dont believe. This is an interesting subject to talk about, especially being this is a website to collect and further educate one's self on well the unbelievable.



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deathnitegrl
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11:52:29 Oct 26 2008
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I don't ignore the possibility of many things, however certain things seem to be unbelievable even for me so in that case I become skeptic, due to the way certain things are told, however I have changed my mind on certain things when I experienced them myself.



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ToxicKitten
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13:31:27 Oct 26 2008
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It's ok to be skeptical, but then reseach and try to experience it, to see if it is real, atleast for you. dont just down grade some thing, then walk away.



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DeadlyXDesire
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15:17:35 Oct 26 2008
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From www.dictionary.com:

skep⋅tic   /ˈskɛptɪk/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [skep-tik] Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun 1. a person who questions the validity or authenticity of something purporting to be factual.
2. a person who maintains a doubting attitude, as toward values, plans, statements, or the character of others.
3. a person who doubts the truth of a religion, esp. Christianity, or of important elements of it.
4. (initial capital letter) Philosophy. a. a member of a philosophical school of ancient Greece, the earliest group of which consisted of Pyrrho and his followers, who maintained that real knowledge of things is impossible.
b. any later thinker who doubts or questions the possibility of real knowledge of any kind.

–adjective 5. pertaining to skeptics or skepticism; skeptical.
6. (initial capital letter) pertaining to the Skeptics.


cyn⋅ic   /ˈsɪnɪk/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [sin-ik] Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun 1. a person who believes that only selfishness motivates human actions and who disbelieves in or minimizes selfless acts or disinterested points of view.
2. (initial capital letter) one of a sect of Greek philosophers, 4th century b.c., who advocated the doctrines that virtue is the only good, that the essence of virtue is self-control, and that surrender to any external influence is beneath human dignity.
3. a person who shows or expresses a bitterly or sneeringly cynical attitude.
–adjective 4. cynical.
5. (initial capital letter) Also, Cynical. of or pertaining to the Cynics or their doctrines.
6. Medicine/Medical Now Rare. resembling the actions of a snarling dog.

I thought this might be helpful in defining the differences between skepticism and being cynical.



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Oceanne
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15:32:23 Oct 26 2008
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"Do you think this all comes down to personal experiences or can someones mind can be changed with facts, or a hard study on X matter?"


I feel it is both.I also feel that when studing these type of subjects it is good to look at all aspects.



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DeadlyXDesire
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15:51:08 Oct 26 2008
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Oceanne...you have a very good way of looking at it..you see both sides rather than making your mind up based on facts or belief.



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Mobius
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15:55:36 Oct 26 2008
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Being skeptical about things, to me, does not mean being unsure or completely not believing it. There are a lot of things I believe in, and I am constantly questioning them.

I believe in spirits, but I am not one to claim that something MUST be caused by a ghost. I believe that we must investigate and find all possible reasons for something happening.

Without being skeptics, I feel we cheat ourselves out of finding the truth, no matter what it actually may end up being. What's the point in just blindly accepting something?



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Oceanne
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16:10:07 Oct 26 2008
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You know Deadly,thank you for that...but really,that out look just gives me the excuse to research stuff.;)



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VanDick
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16:43:13 Oct 26 2008
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I tend to be a doubting Thomas when I watch shows like Taps. Perhaps it's because that I am big into special efforts that I tend to think there are scientific reasons behind some of these things. I also grew up with my dad with chickens, altars and saints that I tend to disbelieve most things.



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Mobius
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16:45:45 Oct 26 2008
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I find myself doubting shows like TAPS because every time there is supposed to be something going on, the camera crew just films the people looking scared instead of actually investigating what's going on.

I rarely believe what I see in pictures or on video, and especially what is broadcasted to me on TV.

I'm a person who needs to experience something for myself to feel like I can really believe it.



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RK
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16:48:33 Oct 26 2008
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I try to be as open minded as possible, but it's hard to be when theres absolutely no proof...



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Beastt17
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17:35:22 Oct 26 2008
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Proof is something which is pretty much impossible to achieve. One might look to the falling of objects on a planet as proof of the force of gravity. If one then looks to the mechanism of gravity as a consequence of the distortion of space-time, that "proof" falls greatly into question. We have overwhelming evidence to show that the Earth is a spheroid. And yet some people still insist that the planet is flat. So are we lacking proof? Or are some simply impervious to overwhelming and conclusive evidence?

We shouldn't look for proof. What we should look for is a much lesser standard of evidence. That which is unaccompanied by objective evidence holds little promise of being true. And the longer an assertion goes without evidence, the less likely it is to be true.

When any claim continues for tens of thousands of years and still presents not a shred of objective evidence to suggest its validity, the odds of it being correct are nearly zero. We recognize this with mermaids, gremlins, Leprechauns, zombies, closet monsters and most other supposed entities.

However, when it comes to certain other claims, people take their own desires into account far more than the rational need for evidence. When it comes to spirits, disbelief means abandoning the belief that one will exist in a conscious state forever and many people seem to simply be incapable of grasping such a likelihood. So rather than adhering to the the rationality of requiring evidence, they continue to believe in spirits as a means of hoping to escape their own mortality.

But it should be noted that belief in spirits has been a hallmark of human gullibility for tens of thousands of years and has been the subject of much study; both scientific and otherwise. And yet despite all of the research, all of the investigation and all of the claims; there exists today not one more shred of evidence to support the idea than existed thousands of years ago.

One cannot claim to be skeptical or even rational in accepting the idea that there is any significant likelihood of validity for such an idea.



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Mobius
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18:27:48 Oct 26 2008
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Uh oh, someone said the evil "P" word...


And yet despite all of the research, all of the investigation and all of the claims; there exists today not one more shred of evidence to support the idea than existed thousands of years ago.

Except for what people believe and have experienced themselves. Not everything can be explained, I think the unexplainable is what is driving this debate. Just because we can't explain it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.




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Beastt17
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19:12:43 Oct 26 2008
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And yet science continually shows that virtually everything can be explained. And when confirmable explanations are found, they're always of the natural and never of the supernatural or paranormal.

Not once has any of the claims of supernatural or paranormal ever been found to be the confirmed explanation. If you think about it, just about every natural disaster or catastrophe from disease to earthquakes, volcanoes and storms have at one time, been attributed to the supernatural and/or paranormal. Nothing has ever been confirmed to actually be attributable to such supposed forces.

When will the reality finally take hold; that such explanations are really nothing more than a lack of explanation? That's what they've always been and what they've always been shown to be. It's no different than explaining the art of the illusionist by proclaiming it to be "magic". It's the avoidance of an explanation.

In adhering to such ideas the only thing that is accomplished is to slow the discovery of real explanations. Such claims have never once panned out. Hundreds if not thousands have since been explained and the explanations are always natural, never supernatural and never paranormal.

That's significant.



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Mobius
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19:18:55 Oct 26 2008
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But here to me it seems that you are toeing the line of stating that these things have no proof, the concept of which you have recently argued against.

Perhaps I'm reading it wrong, but I find a contradiction in you saying that what others feel may be possible is not so because science hasn't determined it, you shy from using the word proof, but indeed it seems to me that you are claiming what others think is false just because of lack of proof.

Our gadgets have not given solid answers, but they usually don't anyway. There is a lot of guesswork and the best scientists admit that the answers we have are really just our best ideas/guesses.

Why couldn't the same be offered here? You can't disregard the concept of proof in one aspect and praise it in the next.



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Beastt17
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19:57:09 Oct 26 2008
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I'm not suggesting any need for proof. I'm talking about objective evidence. And not even conclusive evidence; just objective supporting evidence. A hole in someone's chest is objective supporting evidence of a gunshot wound. It's not conclusive evidence because there are many means by which such a hole can be made. It would require further examination of the hole, leading to further objective evidence to establish conclusive evidence that it was or was not, the result of a gunshot.

And yet claims of the supernatural and paranormal remain completely devoid of even the smallest shred of objective evidence -- just as they always have. And as I have pointed out, that's the mark of a falsehood in nearly every proclaimed concept such as Leprechauns, fairies, gremlins, zombies, etc. The only difference with claims of ghosts or spirits is that there is a personal hope for gain -- the gain of continued conscious existence beyond death.

I'm not stating that what people feel or believe they feel is other than what they claim because science hasn't determined it to be. What I'm demonstrating is that what people feel or believe they feel is but a subjective claim. And subjective claims, while being quite convincing to those making such claims, are quite often erroneous. Take someone from a third-world country to witness Chris Angel or David Blaine in the performance of their street illusions and then ask them if they witnessed magic. Most likely they will utterly believe what they've seen. I lack an explanation for many of their illusions but I recognize that they are illusions despite my own subjective interpretation of what I have witnessed.

That which is supported only via subjectivity is rarely other than misinterpretation. This has been demonstrated through numerous studies on placebo-effect and other forms of power-of-suggestion research. The first and second surgeries adopted for the treatment of angina pectoris were concluded to be outstanding successes based on the subjective reports of the patients receiving the procedures. It required a double-blind study to conclude that the first technique was a complete failure and autopsies performed years later to conclude that the second technique was also a complete failure.

Volunteers in research to test new treatments for chronic arm pain resulted in moderate success attributed to a new drug and much better success attributed to a new form of acupuncture. The draw-back was that the medication caused some rather severe (but not unexpected), side-effects in 31% of the test subjects. The side-effects were so sever that 3 of the subjects had to drop out of the testing when reduced dosages failed to relieve their suffering. But only after the 8-week test was concluded did the volunteers learn the truth -- the medication they'd been taking (the one that "caused" the most extreme side-effects), was nothing but colored cornstarch pressed into a pill. The acupuncture (which resulted in side-effects for 25% of the volunteers), was performed with special needles which retracted rather than puncturing the skin. All of the side-effects and all of the pain relief were purely subjective and not at all real; though they felt real to the volunteers.

All of the results reported by the volunteers were their subjective interpretation of their experiences and yet they were completely wrong. The same thing happened when the University of Wisconsin La Crosse team was enlisted to help test the performance-enhancing characteristics of superoxygenated water. The athletes demonstrated the ability to run faster after consuming superoxygenated water than when drinking regular bottled water because that's what they had been lead to expect. In reality, the "superoxygenated water" was ordinary tap water.

Proclaiming that the results of science are just "best guesses/ideas", inappropriately belittles the findings of science. Where are you at the moment? Are you sitting in front of a computer communicating back and forth over a global network of computers? That's the fruit of science and it's far more than a guess or an idea.

My comments about "proof" were simply to point out that such a word should be reserved for maths and alcohol. There really is no such thing as proof unless you can determine who has to be convinced. If only one side must be convinced, then proof is easy. If both sides must be convinced, then proof isn't possible. But objective evidence is possible in either case and everything which has ever been confirmed to be true has been accompanied by objective evidence. Things which we readily accept as untrue are unsupported by any known objective evidence. That's why we don't believe them to be true.

The one exception is when people allow their choices to be made by an emotional desire for those things to be true and this is the case with spirits, souls and ghosts.



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Mobius
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20:19:30 Oct 26 2008
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I simply have to disagree with you when you say that there hasn't been even the smallest shred of evidence. Perhaps it isn't evidence that you believe but they have noticed different occurances and their affect on electrical equipment.

perhaps this is a case of you not believing what is presented to you? That's fine. But that doesn't seem to be closer to sure of what you're talking about.



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dabbler
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20:28:39 Oct 26 2008
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So just because a person accepts a belief, do they stop asking questions?

Just because someone experiences something are they convinced, even when what they witness is brought to light as explainable?

Sure I did the whole church thing, along with the spiritualist thing, and a few other philosophies, that in a few cases was where I started looking for answers to questions, not only my questions, but questions posed by those i witnessed to. The answers are what led me away from those same beliefs. That and observations that showed somethings as nothing but performances.. and people being entertained by their faith, nothing but sensationalism.. those same people do more damage to others in the faith then will ever be known.

When man creates religion, or any philosophy they need not convince any body, all they need to do is play the Open your mind/heart card, how simple. How very simple, considering the faiths in the path needed animated statues, and elaborate spy rings to make people convinced that a god or mystic force existed.. now it is all done with innduedo, and emotional cueing. How we have devolved.



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ToxicKitten
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20:38:05 Oct 26 2008
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Video's....can be distorted


Camera crews show you what they want you to believe. and not what they really SHOULD show you.


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Beastt17
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20:38:31 Oct 26 2008
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Re: "I simply have to disagree with you when you say that there hasn't been even the smallest shred of evidence."

That isn't what I said. I said there isn't the smallest shred of objective evidence. It may seem like a small distinction but if one looks to the ground-work behind every confirmed discovery the difference becomes obvious in its enormity.


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dabbler
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20:52:18 Oct 26 2008
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It is also important to realize that those who have invested interest in Occult, and religion need to support the hype of things that appear to be divine or mystical, without entertaining people, how many people are likely to stay in an all sermon church?

It is the person that peeks behind the curtain that discovers the Wizard is not an all mystic being after all.

Another thing is, how much "research" is based on things that once where accepted as mystic, or religion, that have since been exposed?

Even the church noticed that the performance of Divine things, was no base for faith (actually they figured that other faiths where performing for their believers better then the church) they included in their text, "Do not seek signs and wonders." yet people still want that evidence, not just unbelievers, but believers as well, is that really faith?



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Beastt17
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06:08:48 Oct 27 2008
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What makes difficulty with electrical equipment evidence of spirits anymore than evidence of feathered whales?

Where's the connection?



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TheFireWithin
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15:59:59 Oct 28 2008
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If their ideas aren't set in stone, any skeptic can be made to believe or at least question themselves on any matter. *laughs*



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RaggedyAndy
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16:09:14 Oct 28 2008
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When I see phrases like the ones you mentioned--the proverbial "one liners" which are unsupported by any further documentation, reference or opinion--the thing that comes to mind is that the writers are too lazy to take the time to post something decent and of substance and/or are only interested in getting one more forum post under their belt to increase their level. To me those who post one liners (negative or positive) are really contributing nothing to the forum and I pretty much skip over those responses.



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Beastt17
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16:44:34 Oct 28 2008
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By "set in stone", is one referring to hard, conclusive, objective evidence? Such evidence should always be seen as unquestionable in the face of the blind assertion which so often accompanies claims to the contrary.

Remember: Few things have not, at one time or another, been asserted to be attributable to the supernatural. But never has this ever turned out to be the case. Everytime we reach confirmable conclusions, they're of a strictly normal nature, never are they supernatural. This has happened thousands and thousands of times and never has anything ever been shown to be supernatural.



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dabbler
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19:10:47 Oct 28 2008
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Set in stone.. when those who claim to be able to demonstrate such abilities, and even have witnesses account for their ability.. it is not a matter of simply believing they have claimed skilled, and can demonstrate it, faith is not required, a demonstration is. A demonstration of what is claimed to be super natural, or paranormal, Would a "medium" be willing to under go an MRI session? What if a third party sympathetic to Occult practices had access to the data? Along with Scientist, I would be willing to bet that if the scientist even hinted at supporting the likelihood of anomaly, they would be raised up on the shoulders of the Occult representatives. Yet the moment they determine the data to be normal, or non-anomaly in nature (example the same MRI one would expect from a guess brain activity, like a detective would register) then they would poo poo the whole operation, or bolster any indeterminable data as supporting "fact".



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dabbler
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19:13:35 Oct 28 2008
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So as those who embrace the occult it is really just a matter of demonstrating to those they seek to convince, they then must rely on those would be converts to be less then observant to their practice, Hoping they don't Peek behind the curtain as it would be known, and if an exposer is created a cover story is prepared to glance over the matter.



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GatsunoKisu
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19:31:41 Oct 28 2008
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I apologize. I thought my statement was pretty self explanitory. My 15 year old sister understood what I meant, I figured a couple of intelligent adults might understand it as well.

Anyway, what I mean by "set in stone" is... Well, a lot of people believe what they want, that's no big deal. But those who accept their beliefs as the only one and will accept nothing else as even the slightest bit of truth have ideas that are "set in stone" meaning, no one will change their minds no matter the evidence presented to them.

Now, those who aren't like that tend to listen and if you have a good enough arguement, will end up questioning what they originally believed and maybe even adopt some of the views that you have presented. So, that being said, if you present a good enough arguement and the person is willing to listen and accept what you say, any skeptic can be made to believe in just about anything you want them to.

There. Is that spelled out and typed long enough for you? Or do I need to put in more?



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GatsunoKisu
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19:33:45 Oct 28 2008
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I can add more and dumb it down if you'd like. I wouldn't want it to seem as if my laziness was getting the better of me. *smiles sweetly*



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dabbler
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19:37:46 Oct 28 2008
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What of those that once believed, but while they where believers asked questions, found answers, and turned and left the faith.. any believer can be led out of their faith by evidence that what they are shown only appears to be what it is claimed to be, they learn then that they have been duped, and abandon their faith.. or settle for a less sensational core belief. Your conclusion leaves out the possibility that the skeptic may have already once been a believer.



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GatsunoKisu
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19:46:05 Oct 28 2008
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Very true. I thought someone might say that. I was waiting for it. ^_^

I'm sure you've heard that religion breeds stupidity breeds faith. To an extent, that's true. Any of the extremely religious people today more than likely never even completed high school and those who did are those who have their ideas and faith set in stone and refuse to believe in anything else.

Most college students stop going to church, they don't practice their religion like they "should"... They don't really believe anymore. They turn into skeptics. But on the same token, something keeps them holding on to what little faith they have left because of arguements made by family members, friends, etc.

Not everything in this world can be explained through science yet so, what they can't explain, they still attribute to their gods/dieties.

So, those who were believers turned skeptics, are still believers to a point and with a convincing enough arguement, can be turned into believers again. If not completely then still somewhat...



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dabbler
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19:53:01 Oct 28 2008
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Once a skeptic places something in context, it is pretty much set to be refuted by evidence (evidence that is available to general scrutiny). Lack of a demonstration (demonstrations are presented to believers correct) pretty much seals the topic as questionable for the skeptic. I take many religious beliefs in the context of metaphor.. as fables, and myth they serve the same purpose of stories, and works of fiction, now would I be likely to believe (again) that such things are about an Omnipresent Deity, or Manifest Ethereal Realm.. I can confidently say No. I also note that this is not limited to Religious matters either. As a one time Carney, you better believe I will only play a few of the Midway games (and actually believe I can win by skill alone.)



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Rastaferal
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20:48:34 Oct 28 2008
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The world always needs skeptics...even though its a pretty crappy job. Its impossible to make a believer out of one who is insane but you can change the opinion of some with hard evidence.



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dabbler
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21:20:21 Oct 28 2008
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When a believer is shown the same "mystic" performance over and over again.. eventually they will become jaded. They will push the performer to produce more sensational demonstrations as well, eventually the Believer will seek other Sects, or more appealing performances.



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Beastt17
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21:30:31 Oct 28 2008
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A "good argument", MyWorldYourDream, includes objective evidence. No good argument can be crafted from nothing but blind, unevidenced assertion.

As for the rest, I'm curious; how far and how long do you intend to push with the blatant insults?



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Beastt17
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21:47:35 Oct 28 2008
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I was raised a believer, MyWorldYourDream.

Both religiously and in regard to the paranormal. Not until I was in my mid-30s did I find cause to re-evaluate what I'd been raised to believe. When I did, I found a system that works. It recognizes faith as holding beliefs without rationality. No one should ever accept any belief without sufficient objective evidence. To do so is not admirable, not honorable, and has never lead anyone to truth.

I'll not be going back to beliefs devoid of reason. Reason and evidence simply work too well to be abandoned in favor of blind belief. When people continue to believe the same unreasoned, unevidenced, illogical things for tens of thousands of years, and are still claiming that science just hasn't confirmed them "YET", they've completely missed the point simply because they don't want to understand. Truth is terribly inflexible and some would rather deny themselves truth rather than adhere to its rigidity. So they live in denial and attempt to garner support for their fantasy by luring others to believe as they do. When they fail, they lash out in anger and insults.

The bottom line is that they will never have a solid argument because they lack that which is required for every solid argument -- objective evidence. Without it, you have but blind assertion. And a blind assertion insisting that spirits and/or souls exist is no stronger than a blind assertion proclaiming the intellectual superiority of sentient feathered pickles, no matter how many believe or disbelieve.

It's nothing new for people to display hatred and anger when offered truths they don't like. Galileo offered truth and received house arrest and public humiliation. Giordano Bruno offered truth and received imprisonment then death by burning. Many people look to the perpetrators of such injustice and think themselves superior. And yet when faced with unwanted truth, set about spewing venom and vitriol, just as did their ancestors 400-years ago.



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dabbler
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21:55:14 Oct 28 2008
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Is the person that is waiting for their 100% return from a shady investment likely to return to the "business" that took it?



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Jessyka
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22:19:52 Oct 28 2008
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If you do the resaerch I think you'll find what your looking for.



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Beastt17
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22:20:18 Oct 28 2008
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That depends on their level of faith, dabbler. The truly faithful will not only keep waiting, but will likely double their investment and will the profits to their offspring...

...or the offspring of their offspring...

...or their offspring

...or their offspring....



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DeadlyXDesire
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23:37:04 Oct 28 2008
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To me that isn't necessarily someone who is a hard core believer but more gullible than anything else. Sometimes we really want to believe something that isn't true. We have hopes and dreams but it is something to work towards and try to attain but that does not mean that we will get it.

It is those who take these things to extreme that we need to worry about but not the everyday intelligent person who may believe it ghosts or spirits but they do not devote their life to them. Is it really so harmful that they have this belief as long as they harm no one with their belief?



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dabbler
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00:06:58 Oct 29 2008
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In context seances' are a parlor entertainment, originating in the 1700s in France, the popularity in the United states came with the Medicine Shows, they used such showman ship as a pretense for the sales of Cure Alls. The Fox Sisters started a craze by fanning the flames of an already existing (struggling) group fascinated with scientific examination of metaphysical matters (spirits, and souls) if you venture back further in time, you will find the Fakirs performing many variations of tricks to attract customers to by faith based trinkets.

When a person declares faith in something, is it the faith, or are they convinced that what they where shown is support for their belief?

If so is that not sensationalism?

There are believers who differ from other believers, on signs and wonders.

It is not only skeptics that seek demonstrations of what claims are made by occult practicers.

How can a person read 1000 accounts of fraud by pretense (claims of connecting "clients" with their deceased loved ones) and then say, "oh not all mediums are like that."?



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DeadlyXDesire
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01:09:12 Oct 29 2008
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Dab..it is that person wanting to believe something that they may be afraid of doesn't truly exist. Maybe they hang onto it hoping that one may just be real so that they can "connect" with the one that they lost. Sometimes grief can cause a person who normally not believe in it to become a believer so that they have something in which to cling to. It could be they cannot face the death itself and this is what compels them to seek these mediums out.



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dabbler
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01:28:07 Oct 29 2008
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What about grief counselors, do they not aid in the same process, that mediums claim to do? I can sit with a person one time and give them the enough info to put closer to a loved one passing, using fragments of information left behind by their loved ones, a small gathering of friends, is all that is needed. but when people get ideas like "I can just communicate with my loved ones when they pass, so why bother speaking to them "meaningly" in this life." becomes the unspoken norm, that is not a good thing for reasons I hope are obvious! The ethics involved in mediumship are questionable.. The whole thing was founded onthe practice of entertainment, it is still required for those that practice such Entertainment to advertise as such. The occult has brainwashed people into investing much more personal matters into such things, purely for gain. People place much less effort into the present life, when glory is held out beyond like a carrot and stick. Ever just out of reach, most religions promise Pie in the sky (after death), others promote a connection with mystic forces.. those that follow them, are shown performances/demonstrations that are interpreted as signs of support for the beliefs they project onto others. I suggest for reading "The Psychic Mafia" By M. Lemar Keene, if you are still convinced in the "benefits" "promised, or hinted at by such sharks. I am sorry that people need to feel taken in the search for such things, as eventually they all are. When so much is invested in something that is so exposed.. Ican only shiver..

Have you seen the effects of a person already going through grief, realize they just got cheated out of a chunk of their savings, by a performance?

I can list any number of cases, but please understand As I have said that used in its proper context such things are entertaining, and serve a group application. But for all that is reasonable please let go of any Extended Beliefs of Super Natural Illusion, it only leads to dependency, and gullible actions.



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XSilverxMoonxNightX
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03:21:48 Oct 29 2008
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well to the person who started this thread havn't u had something similar to what ur talking about happen to u where u sware to something but find out with facts that what u believed to be true was really not the truth?

didn't it change the way u think? if infact this had happend to u I'm sure it has many wont admit it but it's happend to more then just many of us it's apart of learning and growing up it's just the way we are programed it's just how the learning process goes down sometimes.

Now as far as experinces go learning that what u thoguht to be the truth was really wrong makes u think about alot of other things u've thought to be true santa, the tooth fairy, the easter bunny so and and forth...

like when many thought that the chritian sabath was on sunday and swore by it and later found out that people are saying differently that is disturbing to many b/c they feel they are right some will listen others will fight it thinking they are right... it all depends on the type of person and what they've been through how they think and how they see things..



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VR System
VR System

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03:21:48 Oct 29 2008
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This thread has been automatically closed for length.



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