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lavisbre
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20:31:49 Nov 17 2008
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I must say when I first got here to wonder the halls of VR I was happy I had found a home, a place I could be me, somewhere I could grow into my darkness.

Yet I find consistent ridicule and suffocation of peoples expression, beliefs and concepts. Being of a house Kheperu recorded as a religion. Yet intolerance is common to our concepts and beliefs. This is never accepted on any other religion why just ours? A belief is a belief and on other sites I find respect if your a Christian saying Jesus walked or a witch is real.


my question is why do you wish to silence occult things under the false blanket of “scientific proof” or skeptic (frightened to believe).

Please share your feelings on the onslaught of silence due to lack of so called proof.




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Xzavier
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21:03:13 Nov 17 2008
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I think you know the answer to that. In general its simply fear based. A fear of loosing power, of the unknown etc.

Personally I respect a persons right to believe what they wish and when it comes to basic religious ideals I rarely have an issue with them. For me, I do find fault with those who ignore science or those who are "flatlanders" as I call them, believing in something that is obviously false.

I don't fear damage to the Church and I don't think people who don't follow the Bible 1000%are going to hell. I fear the potential damage of ignorance and blind faith. This goes for Christians, pagans and so on.

In my efforts I actually try to use science to help prove a persons belief system not to change or "revoke" it. Of course if a person see's the input of science into their ideas as dangerous or 'false" then I think they shouldn't be thinking in general. Thats just my opinion.



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Maven
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21:10:20 Nov 17 2008
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well....not to bite off more than i can chew (but i'll jump in as this isn't my first Pro and i'm quite versed in the ways of VR).

i'll use "me" as an example. there is plenty, that i believe in, because i have seen/experienced it. i'm black and white like that.


there is plenty, that i believe in the possibility of, that i am waiting to see/experience.....and then will i be a believer of that also.

it has nothing to do with fear...i am rather fearless on all levels.

so....there are many here like me, and then there are many who fear the unknown.

you'll find a fine mix here of personalities.



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Oceanne
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21:58:05 Nov 17 2008
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Personally,I dont find any one really hiding the occult under scientific proof,as thats what I believe the occult is...Simply Scientific things that have been twisted out of porportion, and labled occult..And the skeptics meerly help lay things out so we can look at them closely,possibly to help some avoid falling into that bottomless pitt of fantasy.There isnt a thing wrong with looking at things and trying to put an exsisting energy or force behind what is explainable or possible.
Nothing wrong with believeing what one will either.
But all this discord you speak of? What does one expect when a bunch of creative types are thrown into a bucket?



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dabbler
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22:17:39 Nov 17 2008
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The fact that people tend to marginalize the fraud that runs rampant in occult practice as isolated, yet their is no presentation, or even account of "authentic" occult practice makes a case, yet those who insist that they have some inside track on spiritual things seem to make a lot of money, some of it non' profit. That and the history speaks for its self. The key players have come forward denouncing their once "sacred beliefs". So what you claim to be attacks, are nothing more then presenting road already traveled, in the face of the same claims, and matter of fact allusion to spirits being subject to the whims of man.

Is your agenda to stump skeptics..?



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dabbler
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22:23:37 Nov 17 2008
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BTW believers seek demonstrations as well, it is not limited to skeptics, why are believers shown demonstrations, yet the same people cannot produce demonstrations for non-believers?



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cadrewolf
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22:25:02 Nov 17 2008
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I think xzavier hit it right on the head, Fear and not knowing , for we as individuals do look at other things as an open text and not what is written in it. we all have our own beliefs in religion or cult or life, and we do value ideas of others yet alot odf us fear not knowing.



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lavisbre
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22:27:47 Nov 17 2008
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Hi Xzavier, yes I see your point and find “flatlanders” a funny yet correct term.
Mind you science is magic till it is adopted by science, like the “borg” it assimilates.
The easiest way for me is to look at alchemy and it’s advancements to what we see today… always looking for “gold/money” science seems to be one giant money machine with medications and tests n what not’s. and all based on hunches theories and idears…. Funny old world



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dabbler
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22:28:04 Nov 17 2008
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Not knowing what, that people are really good at exploiting others?

Here is exposer of the "Unknown" not a mystery since the 1800s
when Skeptics unveiled the Fakirs.

The mystery is how can people keep falling for such a rehashed scam.


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dabbler
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22:30:28 Nov 17 2008
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What has the occult contributed to civilization?

What invention powered by occult "energy" has advanced any area of life? Aside from all the profit made in Books, and seminars, and private retreats.. what has Spiritualism, or the occult produced?



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lavisbre
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22:30:50 Nov 17 2008
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Hey Dabbler

Must say I just love your post, my dad was a great skeptic too so I have much respect for your infinitive post on frauds n liars in this occult world and a necessity or we will all be great trouble for sure on occult levels.



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dabbler
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22:37:25 Nov 17 2008
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It is all entertainment, some apply mystic sources to it, I feel they are lousy, lazy performers, who need the pretense to perform. Simply put losers that pray on guilible people. There is no Legit spiritialist/occultist.. just ones that have not been exposed yet. That is my agenda, to show the fallacy of logic those who claim such things use to support their beliefs, or convince others to believe, not all occultist practice, or subscribe to the belief. They don't even hold"sessions for each other. They sit around and share gossip of their Marks. Marks Are Suckers in Carny Talk. BTW carnivals where the staple for Mystics and such back before reality TV made it so Damn Vogue..



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ThothLestat
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22:40:37 Nov 17 2008
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What has the occult contributed to civilization?
Music and literature.


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lavisbre
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22:45:42 Nov 17 2008
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No doubt Dabbler no Doubt. lol
I don’t share your agenda as far as proving frauds what they are.
As most occult practices are not science and fall to belief, faith or fooled.
I personally have seen something’s and also practice occult matters.
Im not stupid .. gullible or uneducated in fraud, I still believe and know to my core… it’s real.



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dabbler
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22:56:07 Nov 17 2008
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so how prey tell do you expect me to respond to you conviction?



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lavisbre
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22:58:34 Nov 17 2008
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You did the way you know?
What do you want me to ask you?



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dabbler
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23:08:27 Nov 17 2008
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What response do you expect to your claims, that you observed what you claimed to observe? Please avoid answering a question with a question.



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lavisbre
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00:34:23 Nov 18 2008
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Sorry Dabbler … not following what you mean? lol



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lavisbre
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00:35:06 Nov 18 2008
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I feel you have answered the question?



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dabbler
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00:40:01 Nov 18 2008
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Someone that claims a higher unetatanding.. Should be able to answer such a straight forward question, what is an acceptable response to a persons claim of occult interactions?



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lavisbre
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00:45:01 Nov 18 2008
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Sorry Dabbler …. Not getting it again ..(turns off TV show)
Am I that person who “claims” higher understanding?
To which you will ask for scientific proof (that cant understand a bee flying, yet it does)



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dabbler
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01:12:13 Nov 18 2008
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how about a video of a spiritualist, here we are in the tech age, a simple video will work? So you claim that super natural things exist, and that people can interact with such things, correct?

Now how do you, the person who claims to have observed such convincing demonstration, expect a skeptic, or even another beliver to respond, perhaps you could contact a psychic to answer for you. Why are you acting like you don't understand the question. It is as plainly stated as yours, what is your adgenda.. Are you looking for referals to some practicing occultist?

How do you respond to the large amount of frauds, would you tell victims of occultist to keep seeking?



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dabbler
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01:15:01 Nov 18 2008
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how about a video of a spiritualist, here we are in the tech age, a simple video will work? So you claim that super natural things exist, and that people can interact with such things, correct?

Now how do you, the person who claims to have observed such convincing demonstration, expect a skeptic, or even another beliver to respond, perhaps you could contact a psychic to answer for you. Why are you acting like you don't understand the question. It is as plainly stated as yours, what is your adgenda.. Are you looking for referals to some practicing occultist?

How do you respond to the large amount of frauds, would you tell victims of occultist to keep seeking?



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dabbler
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01:22:54 Nov 18 2008
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why the allussion to skeptics being afraid of occult beliefs? That really shows how ignorant the occult followers can be. It appears the only fear is that of those who follow the occult fear that they are being duped. I fear the occult actually I fear that people will continue to be fleeced by arse hole swindlers. And that other followers will keep herding new stock to them. Piss on your exposed practice. You have doubts, and it is really not amusing anymore.



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dabbler
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01:38:08 Nov 18 2008
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simply put my agenda is to hold occultist accountable for the marginalization of fraud, and obvious lack of accredidation. How one minute a person is the poster child for psychics, and then as soon as they lay a rotten egg and get caught, they are "just bad examples of psychics."

I also challenge the shrouding of the occult in religion.

And press for a demonstration more accurate then an entertainer by a psychic. But all I expect is rhetoric from delussional belivers.



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lavisbre
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01:53:49 Nov 18 2008
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Sorry dabbler was watching TV .. back to your duplicated post ….
Must say you mistake for for someone who cares if you believe or not… come to think about it .. I don’t care who believes or not.lol
Just like most things in life … you have to let go of that security blanket and take a leap of faith.

You wont … and god help us when we do find occult maters proved scientifically.



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lavisbre
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01:58:46 Nov 18 2008
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Part of my post was about the manipulation and skeptic rants, you can have a view but once voiced … please … let others speak.
Were talking occult not science…. Did you know science lacks truth? As soon as new theory is proved every thing changes …. All that “fact” was just BS … I could show you as many frauds in science and TV shows so far up there ass there is no light every .. more money has been taken under such lies and conmen … personally I don’t see where this all goes … unless the agenda is to shut down occult matters?



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dabbler
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02:02:19 Nov 18 2008
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that will happen the day after never. How blind you are to what poses as your belief, you present a fanatic attempt to make people believe. You admit you like nothing better then a thread jammed with testimony to your beliefs,
So again what is your agenda, as a believer?



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furcifer
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02:04:45 Nov 18 2008
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I'm hesitant to jump into the fray mostly because I want to see which one of you wins, and I don't want to distract either of you.

But, I'll likely forget my train of thought if I don't blurt it out now...

The original question asked (more or less), why we all feel compelled to silence, debunk, defraud, demystify, *insert your own adverb here* others opinions when they differ from our own. I think that we will all feel this way simply because our own opinion is very close to our hearts and any contradiction is, naturally, taken very personally. So, instead of reading a differing opinion, we often read a personal attack. Then, through the course of point and counter-point, the initial misconception can easily be exasperated, and quite often actually, into not simply a differing opinion but an attack.

Simply put, nothing can be proven. For some things, we have amassed an overwhelming amount of evidence that, at his point in time, most can reasonably assume it to be true. For instance, most will believe me if I tell them that water consists of hydrogen and oxygen. Nothing else. However, this does not preclude anyone from claiming that water also has a life-force, unmeasurable by any means save the intuitive abilities of a few. Neither can be proven. As far as society's collective knowledge is concerned, the former is known to be true and the later will, undoubtedly be made fun of today. But, neither can be proven. Is it my place to ridicule the opinion opposed to the collective knowledge of society? No. Does it happen? Often. When Copernicus first proposed that the entire Universe do not revolve around the Earth, it was positively ridiculous at the time. At the time. It has always been reasonable to assume that we do not know everything there is to know, even about the most banal, in this world. I think that the hard part for all of us is maintaining the objectivity of point and counter-point and not letting debate degrade into slander.

Anyway, sorry for the distraction and interruption...



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dabbler
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02:12:08 Nov 18 2008
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On the table right now is a stack of evidence that all occult pratices are duplicatable by non-mystic means.

Whst occultist claim to have witnessed(through demonstrations) should be stacked against existing evidence...

... Waiting...

.. Waiting..



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dabbler
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02:14:53 Nov 18 2008
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oh and please don't assign me a role as the person that wants scientific proof, all I ask is the name of a "gifted" occultist, and a reference.



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lavisbre
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02:21:55 Nov 18 2008
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Hi Furcifer
Wise post sir wise indeed.
As for myself and dabbler it is not personal or an attack … I have total respect for him, he is wise and knowledgably and properly someone I would like to be stuck on a desert island .. partly conversation and mainly food lol … only joking



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lavisbre
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02:26:27 Nov 18 2008
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Ok dabbler …. On your table is a stack of?
Why is that personal views on your table .. or ones found by science angles on what it cant explain?
Oh wait ….. that’s right ..it’s doesn’t matter .. it’s choice my dear friend.
I see yours and you see mine …
So does anyone else like to answer the post ?



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lavisbre
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02:28:51 Nov 18 2008
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Yes dabbler I am consistent, I have a belief that needs no proof.
What happens to your view once occult matters are proved?
you have to change again ... and again .. just like god was moved back in science ...



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dabbler
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02:37:29 Nov 18 2008
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I offer clear examples of exposed occultist. Where are your examples of what you claim to have witnessed, you have seen such things correct? Or are you making them up? I have seen entertainers do better then people that claim to be mystically aligned. Plenty of proof to that. Now where is your presented material?

.. Waiting ..
.. Waiting..



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LordWolf
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02:40:24 Nov 18 2008
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i think that many times posts that ridicule religious practices are posted in order to either make oneself appear superior in others eyes....or maybe just their own eyes.
if a person disbelieves in someones faith, i personally think they should just not interact with it, and reserve their comments to others of similar beliefs. im not a christian, but i dont bash christians as im not one of them. they have their ways, and they are simply not mine. i dont bash atheists even tho i dont share their beliefs or lack of same.
i am a heathen...a pagan of the old germanic path, and while most would have difficulty in following my path, all i ask is the freedom to follow it myself unjudged.
frankly i find your path to be fascinating.



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lavisbre
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02:44:33 Nov 18 2008
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Ok I will play ball …



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dabbler
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02:51:27 Nov 18 2008
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I accept what is, and what is observable, lab you claim to have observed something occultic you are confident in you observation, correct?

So where is the need for faith? Np one will believe you without asking for a similar observation. I have observed many things that are presented as occult demonstrations and they are all tricks, some of which have devastated
People that wanted to believe.

Again I ask how do you face those people when they ask why you insist that it is anything but fraud made up as "religion"?



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lavisbre
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02:57:35 Nov 18 2008
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Not following dabbler?
Yes I have observed and practice occult matters.
Can I prove it … no
Does it matter … only to you.
Does it mean iv not observed occult matters … no
Sorry dabbler you haven’t found what you so wish too … maybe your just being to skeptic?



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lavisbre
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02:59:07 Nov 18 2008
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Don’t get me wrong … when someone steps up and says im a vampire or im psychic, I don’t swallow.



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Bloodmother
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03:04:14 Nov 18 2008
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Do you post religious or occult thoughts in order to gain agreement and acclaim?

This is a forum for discussion. If everyone agrees, discussion stops.

I see very few attacks here, and when they appear they're usually quickly nipped.

For me, looking at a question from as many angles as possible is important. The historical basis, the human need to be satisfied with the mythos is as important as the scientific. Beyond that what I'm missing is faith, and that seems to be where yours and others hurt feelings enter the equation.



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StandingonBrokendreams
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03:15:42 Nov 18 2008
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First off I can care less of people think about what i do. I am a wiccan and proud of it. I study and research the paranormal and I also believe in everything until one can show me hard proof that it dont exist. What others think of me that is there right to but it is my right and free to either ignore there opions or take them into consideration or let it bother me to where I change my ways for them and that one never happens.... I am who I am and if no one likes that that is there choice. the only people i please is those that i chooose to do so and for myself.



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Oceanne
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03:21:47 Nov 18 2008
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Vr is a great place to learn research and talk about those things that at the time cannot really be explained..some can,yes,but I feel it spurs us all on to finding what makes these things tick,if they are real and keeps us looking for evidence of it.



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dabbler
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04:04:10 Nov 18 2008
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The gig is up, entertainers provide what believers fail to provide, that is demonstrations of what appears to be mind reading, all those who are publicly visable occultist have been exposed as tragically, and consistently wrong.



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Oceanne
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04:15:23 Nov 18 2008
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Yeah,so you look somewhere else...namingly science.What could cause this or that to happen etc...
Screw the "entertainers" left them in the dort many moons ago.you gotta dig for yourself despite what anyone says.



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Euresken
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05:30:38 Nov 18 2008
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It all comes down to an"I've got to see it to belive it" attitude. this is why so many people try to dubunk a belief, or way of life. the occult is a very strange thing and I can see how some things people say they've seen or done would be hard to belive. But It needs to be a matter of giving some one credit. If it actually happened we can't actually know if they are telling the truth because we did not witness it. So what needs to happen is that we give the person the benifit of the doubt,Skeptic or not you weren't there so you don't know, that what they say might be true.



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dabbler
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06:44:14 Nov 18 2008
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When a person(believer or not) seeks answers to mysterious things, and the answers, and finds ample evidence that accounts for clues to that mystery. The mystery is gone.. in it's place is an understanding that it is all in the performance, and how one bills themselves. No veil is crossed, no contact between dead "souls", and living people, if it was so a demonstration would be slammed on sciences desk. If a scoentist endorsed a single occult/metaphysical concept they would be championed.

Even on the chance I was a believer I would disregard those who spend more time promoting themselves then helping people.

Pause a minute and think of the 50,000 average take for a spiritualist.

a persons beliefs are worth how much a demonstration, how many bottles of snake oil do people have to buy. Support you claim, notice my lack of the word belief, or accept my dismissal of your claim without merit.

Did the person divine you? Great cold reader, perhaps he knew a friend of yours.. But any case you make that some spiritual interaction is something
Obserd.a practice of a craft called pretense, and guile, some entertain, and others entertain beliefs.



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xTigressx
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11:10:41 Nov 18 2008
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My beliefs are my own and NO ONE can (or should) tell me what I can or cant do. It is sadly a part of human life (not just in VR but in the real world) that someone will try and tell you what you can or cant do or practice. These ppl are just trying to take over your life with their ideas. We will never be able to stop them all we can do is tell them to mind their own business and that my life is my own.



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Cartomancer
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13:54:41 Nov 18 2008
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Dont for once think you are alone in being ridiculed... even being an open Christian is second-guessed and challenged here among some of those who are Atheists. I have no problems with Atheists... but many like to try and get 'proof' out of believers of any belief-system. Then again... that's why religion isn't for them. When you have different experiences and different feelings, your core is just different. We all end up where we're are due to those experiences and feelings... and you cannot give personal experiences and feelings to another person so they can understand. We are who we are.

Celebrate diversity! Without it, life sure would be boring!



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FacelessUnknown
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18:01:35 Nov 18 2008
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You may believe what you want, just dont try and convince me of what you think you are and i wont slam you for it :)



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dabbler
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19:27:32 Nov 18 2008
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When I watch Christians Clash with Christians, I must admit, ythat I am convinced that Atheist are the only threat to any belief system. Does the Term Holier then Thou come to mind?

Believers don't look down on atheist? Those they call.. Closed Minded, Unenlightened, the Assumetion that atheist must be immoral..

Faceless unknown says it very concisely. Keep your faith to yourself, and those who share it with you, called church, I don't hold hedonist fairs in your church, so don't present your believes to me. Especially when people claim to witness sensational things, and imply that because others have not witnessed them are not enlightened, that does nothing but create temptation to fabricate an experience. Beliefs are one thing, but signs and wonders are getting old real fast.

So think what is really being hidden behind the faith label people.



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dabbler
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20:47:31 Nov 18 2008
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Why do you put (frightened to believe) after skeptic? Are you imlying that you are brave?brave enough to invent, or imagine things that do not exist, as existing, so you can declare not to be ascareded?

It would seem more likely that you have a fear that if you let go of those beliefs that you will be left without any social status.



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dabbler
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20:52:02 Nov 18 2008
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you claim to have witnessed occult activity, you place your confidence in what you saw, observed correct?

So that is not faith, that is confidence in your observation.

You saw It with your own eyes.

Even a believer wants to see a demonstration!



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leoderloewe14
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21:03:32 Nov 18 2008
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Anyone with doubts... should go by feeling... even religious believers have to go "by faith"... as not all are meant to experience "miracles"....

Leo



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Beastt17
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21:17:50 Nov 18 2008
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For me it's about seeing the dramatic damage done by beliefs devoid of evidence. Not to turn this to the political but that is where it ends up as evidenced by the number of states in the United States which have taken it upon themselves to illegalize same-sex marriage. The U.S. is supposed to be a republic where the foundation is individual rights. The next layer is democracy where people vote on those things which do not violate the rights of the individual. But for the adoption of beliefs devoid of evidence, people are now voting other people's rights away. It's no longer a republic, it's just a democracy. And as many people have observed; a democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner.

Such laws serve no one except for those who take it upon themselves to thrust their unevidenced beliefs upon everyone around them. It often starts small with claims that people just want to be left alone to believe as they wish. But very quickly, those beliefs can become the overwhelming force of government and all without reason, without evidence and to the harm of all who hold such beliefs. It undermines the ability of a society to apply rationality and logic to any principle. Everything becomes questionable and mystical no matter how well evidenced. And yet, there has never been a confirmed finding in favor of the unevidenced.

Holding beliefs without cause isn't noble. It's not admirable or indicative of strong character. It's actually quite the opposite of all of those things. It is, at it's most candid assessment; irrational. And once people begin to accept things which are without reason, contrary to the evidence or just service to emotion, they lose all foundation for logical thought. If a belief can be true without logic, without reason and without objective evidence, then all of science is a crock and we are left with nothing but guessing and personal desire with which to find what is and isn't true. Such a system would never take us to the moon, provide personal, pocket-size communication or lead to the invention of the computer. It would lead us around in endless circles as has been the result for beliefs devoid of evidence. They remain today where they were tens of thousands of years ago because they hold no validity.

And yet science has, throughout it's short history, demonstrated that it is the single most successful means by which to filter truth from amid the piles of subjective assertion. It has no equal, no close second and no real challenger of any kind. But for the sake of holding beliefs designed only to appeal to one's sense of wonder, desire for emotional comfort and personal ego, people will dismiss science and attempt to hold irrational beliefs as superior to science or beyond the realm of science.

Nothing is beyond the realm of objective observation except for that which is fallacy. There has simply never been a case of anything being confirmed to be true which does not carry with it, objective evidence. And yet these beliefs devoid of evidence are among the oldest of man's beliefs. They have existed from a time before recorded history. And in all of that time, they have provided no objective evidence of their proclaimed validity. Meanwhile, adherence to standards of objective evidence have brought to us things we didn't even dare to imagine even 100-years ago. Literally every technological comfort and vital finding has been the result of adhering to objectivity and evidence. And when we apply such standards to the common faith-beliefs, all of them are found to be unsubstantiated. But believers would rather berate science and proclaim they're being persecuted than to ever admit that they were simply wrong.

So there is much to be gained from showing people that beliefs devoid of evidence are beliefs devoid of reason, devoid of rationality and devoid of truth. The problem is trying to break through their emotional blockades without them screaming about how they're being attacked and ridiculed.

If someone believes that their car can take-off, fly around the town and land them safely at their home again, there is nothing wrong with explaining to them that they are mistaken in that belief. They might want to banter on about how aerodynamics can't answer everything. They might want to dismiss the fact that there is no evidence of anything flying without demonstrating the necessary aerodynamics (and before you go there, the idea that bumblebees can't fly by the standards of aerodynamics is a fallacy). Is it ridiculing someone to set them straight about the ability to fly around in an automobile? Is it an attack on their person? Is it unfair to them?

It's really the same thing. It's simply an attempt to explain the facts to them and to show them that reason is important, objective evidence is important and that ideas and beliefs which attempt to bypass objective evidence and reason are always, always, always false. There has never been a single instance of a belief devoid of reason and objective evidence ever being found to be correct -- ever.



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dabbler
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21:37:08 Nov 18 2008
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so by the claims of spiritualist, and allowing for advancement in the "field"
We as a civilization have wasted time and resources in florensic studies, all along the spiritualist could have just asked a victim of murder what,and even who killed them , it is not the belief I address it is the practice. Doesn't civilization deserve to benifit from spiritualism. , and occult "studies"? Why wait on science to validate their claims, the industry ( yea I did't say religion, and some that practice occult things don't either.) has really lagged.



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Beastt17
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21:40:15 Nov 18 2008
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Once again, for those who are suggesting that people are asking for "scientific proof", there is no such thing and there never has been. The term "scientific proof" is an oxy-moron -- a self-contradiction, a contradiction in terms.

Science does not operate on proofs.

Science does not produce proofs.

Science operates on evidence and produces conclusions.

The word "proof" has valid meaning in mathematics and in rating percentages of alcohol. That's it. Anywhere else such a term is used, it is pointless, invalid, meaningless and inappropriate.

We (the skeptics), are not asking for proof. We're asking for objective evidence. A single concept can have objective evidence which supports it, and at the same time, objective evidence which refutes it. There is a vast difference between the idea of evidence and the idea people falsely fall to when misusing the word "proof". Evidence is not conclusive, any concept of proof would have to be conclusive or it wouldn't be "proof". And yet people can deny any level of conclusive evidence. Some people still believe the Earth is flat despite all of the conclusive evidence that it's a spheroid. People still believe that the Earth is no more than 10,000 years old, despite all of the conclusive evidence showing it to be 4.6 billion years old. People still believe that the Earth was at one time, completely flooded, despite multiple sets of conclusive evidence which find to the contrary. If "proof" existed it would have to be convincing to everyone. And yet some people would deny a car existed even after you ran them over with it.

There is no such thing as "scientific proof". The concept of "proof" is a contradiction to the practice of science.



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Beastt17
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21:49:16 Nov 18 2008
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That's exactly the point I was making in the thread on spells. If the occult can do everything for us that we now do through holding an understanding of physical reality, then why go to school? Why learn about science? Why bother with understanding social interaction? Just cast spells to do everything for you.

And yet, with all of the people who chimed in to proclaim that most of their spells "work" most of the time, no one seemed to want to offer any evidence that wasn't completely explained under the odds of mere chance. And none of them have suggested that they keep their children home from school where they can keep them from wasting their time learning about physics, math, history, social sciences, computer skills, etc. You might think if their spell-casting was so successful, not only would they be able to demonstrate their success, but they would have the personal conviction not to waste their child's precious childhoods in secular schools learning the hard way to do things. Instead they'd be keeping them home teaching them what herbs to burn, what things to mix and what incantations to recite.



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dabbler
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22:00:49 Nov 18 2008
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So once a person agrees that there maybe sometimg to the whole spiritualist reading, are they invited to a demonstration? Or do they just sit around talking about how they witnessed a very accurate reading?

I hear "I have seen this" If that convinced you.. What you saw demonstrated.. Then faith is no longer called for, however you fully expect others to have faith in your confidence of what you saw in a demonstration..

"?"



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akashadarksoul
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02:57:13 Nov 19 2008
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This may be a silly reason but i generally find people argue because it's what they like to do. also some people cannot stand being wrong. If they are ridiculing you it's because they are most likely unhappy with their own lives and feel the need to make someone else happy, just to make themselves feel better.



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dabbler
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04:59:46 Nov 19 2008
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Here is my motivation, what is your motivation for Pressing people to believe such an obscene practice (notice I did not use the word religion).


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Beastt17
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09:01:54 Nov 19 2008
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Re: "some people cannot stand being wrong. If they are ridiculing you it's because they are most likely unhappy with their own lives and feel the need to make someone else happy, just to make themselves feel better."

Did you notice the obvious bias in your post? You say, "some people cannot stand being wrong", then jump into why people might be ridiculing and do so in response to the opening post.

Did it not occur to you that perhaps some of those who can't stand being wrong are the ones who claim they're being ridiculed? I've been to several forums where defenders of faith-beliefs discuss/debate with defenders of the need for evidence to support rational beliefs and the one tactic I see played out over and over is this; "when you've offered your best arguments and still haven't met the challenges of those offering a counter-point, discontinue attempting to support your assertions and instead claim you're being ridiculed."

I think you may have nailed the first part except that "most people" cannot stand being wrong. This goes doubly in a public forum where it's not just two people sitting there discussing something and it finally reaches the point where one must concede to the other. When you bring in a whole audience or group of participants, the blow to the ego is magnified several times over. And the longer one argues their point and the more deeply invested they become, the harder it is to suddenly swallow the tough pill and admit that you've run out of support for your original assertion. It's simple human nature. But you're right. It's a factor in nearly every topic subjected to debate. The part you seem to miss is that it's not necessarily the skeptics displaying this typical human response.


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nobodysfallenangel
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14:17:04 Nov 19 2008
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Well in every society we have those who choose to be the followers instead of leaders. In fact those who do oppose others beliefs have no real belief system. They are very skeptical of any religion other than their own.

Fear to believe in anything that they have been taught to believe is also another factor. Why believe in someone else's beliefs than your own. I mean it's easier to follow in traditions we have been raised in then investigating, and testing our own theories right?



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Beastt17
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17:16:56 Nov 19 2008
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nobodysfallenangel,

Re: "In fact those who do oppose others beliefs have no real belief system. They are very skeptical of any religion other than their own."

Wait a moment.

First you say that those who oppose the beliefs of others have no real belief system, then turn right around and say they're very skeptical of any religion other than their own.

Which is it? Do they have a belief system or not? If they have a religion, what makes their belief system any less substantial than the belief systems they oppose?

And on that note, when you say "those who do oppose others beliefs", do you not realize that you're talking about people on both sides of the fence? Someone who insists that psychics and mediums truly exist is opposing the beliefs of those who believe they're all fakes just as much as those who believe they're fakes are opposing the beliefs of those who believe they're not fakes.
---

Re: "Fear to believe in anything that they have been taught to believe is also another factor. Why believe in someone else's beliefs than your own. I mean it's easier to follow in traditions we have been raised in then investigating, and testing our own theories right?"

Let's put this idea to the test, shall we?

I was raised by parents who were very religious. They weren't zealots by any means but quite dedicated to their beliefs. One of my father's favorite past-times was to take out his collection of various bibles for several of the more popular beliefs and read through them, taking notes, comparing verses in one to verses in others and explaining where he believed he found discrepancies in one or references to the same things among several. They also believed that everyone possessed some degree of psychic power, that we lived on past our death, that people could be possessed by demons and that telekinesis was a reality.

I was raised to believe in the same things in which my parents believed and did so until I was around 33-years old. Then I had some rather dramatic and twisted things happen in my life. In the midst of despair I began trying to reconcile what I'd been taught about a loving watchful supreme being with the things that were happening to me and I just couldn't make the two fit. It was obvious that something was wrong and I became determined to figure out why.

I stepped back from my beliefs, fairly certain that in trying to work it all out, I'd return to all of the same beliefs but with an enhanced understanding. But I was more determined to find a truth -- something that didn't contradict itself -- than to hold onto any belief out of loyalty or tradition.

I began reassessing everything from a position of objectivity. I stopped making excuses for things if they didn't make sense. A year later I realized I was an atheist. Nothing else made any sense and it still doesn't (that was 15-years ago). I started to apply the same kind of objectivity to beliefs which weren't so connected to the idea of a supreme being and found the same thing again -- when you stop making excuses for the failures of any belief, you start to realize that the belief itself is highly flawed.

So it appears that I'm not reacting out of fear. It was frightening to let go of the belief that I had a supreme being watching over me but when reality demonstrates that it isn't true, then holding onto the belief doesn't make it true. So despite the fears involved, I adopted new beliefs. Obviously, I'm not so afraid of beliefs other than my own that I can't change because I did change despite the fears involved.

And while it may be easier to follow the traditions we've been raised in than to change our beliefs, I didn't take the easy path. I took the one that demonstrates itself to be correct. So I arrived at my beliefs by investigating rather than huddling in tradition.

So let me ask you to apply some of the suggestions you've made to yourself. Do you believe the same things you were raised to believe, or have you stepped back, stopped making excuses for beliefs that don't remain consistent with what reality demonstrates, and changed your beliefs from what you were raised to believe?

Do you not realize that you oppose the beliefs of those who don't buy into the claims of psychic powers, mediums, spell-casting, spirits and after-lives? Or do you recognize that your comments about people being skeptical about belief systems other than their own applies to you while it obviously doesn't apply to me?



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dabbler
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21:07:10 Nov 19 2008
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Fear What ?

How about a concern for people getting hosed by people acting under pretense of talking with dead people?

Telling someone they are too scared to believe.. have you really listened to yourself say that?

Do you find comfort in your beliefs?

Do you ever say, I don't have fear, because I believe in psychic energy?

Google Fallacies in Reasoning.. or are you too scared to?

Are you too scared to consider that you have been duped along with a bunch of other dupes?





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dabbler
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20:41:08 Nov 21 2008
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Let us look at pother potential reasons the site is just not all that for you any more, instead of going straight for those who share their disbelief in what you believe (which seems very Christian like BTW).

OK Aside from those pesky bubble popping skeptics.. there are others here who share a belief system.. but fully, and openly disagree with your accepted interpretation of those beliefs. How many times can a circle sit around, and say how cool what they believe in is.. before it gets that dead horse smell.. Now with creativity it would be revived, but that is something that is most definitely discouraged in any belief system.



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Oceanne
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21:52:17 Nov 21 2008
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Looks to me like peeps are just too concerned with what others think..about their beliefs or faith or whatever.Who the F cares.If someone wants to talk religion? So be it..if someone sees ghosts..ok.Why does anyone have to get bent out of shape just because someone wants to talk about whats on their mind or in their hearts..kindof the purpose of a site like this isnt it? To share?
If we find we are wrong,how about shoving pride a bit farther up our butts and at least make some use of it.
The bottom line for me is this.Ive seen stuff happen thats just plain weird.I use VR as a base to research any and everything that could possibly be behind the things Ive witnessed.And youknow? I could care less what anyone thinks or how they feel about what Im doing.Cause Im gonna do it anyway.I also dont care about what they say as far as what it is..cause Im going to find out for myself.But in the meantime,Im certainly not going to take any kind of scrutiny personaly(because they have their agendas too).Besides,diversity is a good thing in my book.



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Oceanne
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22:09:29 Nov 21 2008
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Oh hey Lav,to address this part of your original question..
"my question is why do you wish to silence occult things under the false blanket of “scientific proof” or skeptic (frightened to believe). "

What happens with me,is during my research on something,I sometimes happen upon some pretty good explainations of phenomenon.And so,I present it,because the more info we all have to work with,the better our concept of our world and of ourselves will be.I have also found that in diggin into the things that are very often labeled paranormal..really arent.There are things that go on in this universe that are very real,have alot of evidence behind it and can explain alot of this stuff.So personally,it isnt my intention to persuade or disuade anyone in what they believe..just giving them something else to consider.



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Oceanne
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22:35:00 Nov 21 2008
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Peeps are constantly attempting to strongarm others into believeing what they do.And it simply doesnt work.No matter if we feel it wrong or right.All one can do,is put information out there and let them do what they will with it...if anything.
But if people are silent because they feel ridculed or attacked,then thats more of a personal problem and maybe they might review thir solidity in their own beliefs and adjust accordingly.Shit,think where we would be today if peeps just shut up because one,two or three peeps came down on them.You gotta be strong in you own self in this world of ours today,and if you arent? Well,sorry,its sad,but what can anyone else do?
If you want to speak your mind ? Then do it! We have been handed several ways to do just that here.Screw what anyone else says.
However,one doesnt have to become an ass to do so.



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Oceanne
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22:48:18 Nov 21 2008
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No problem Dab..and its ok,dont ever worry about offending me,cause I dont take offense to any of it.Its just discussion and Im all for the whole "Bring it on" thing.;) .Thanks for the concern though.



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dabbler
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22:49:35 Nov 21 2008
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Calling or alluding that people who are not convinced by a performance that the person claims they are talking to dead people, closed minded, or even that they fear knowing is when it gets directly insulting. How belivers fool themselves into thinking they are not being insulting is obvious. I will not be convinced by a performance, and claim that has been rehashed time and again, when people claim to have belief I say phooy because they have object demonstration there for they are convinced that what they see is what it is claimed to be. It is not I am confident that it is not.



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Oceanne
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22:54:19 Nov 21 2008
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Ok,fair enough,so you dont go for it.And you do what you can to put evidence onto the table that will help others make decisions for themselves in light of how you see it..If they chose not to listen? Well,hope they got money to pay for those sessions.It isnt going to help your case to take any of it as an insult..and all it ends up being is self imposed stress.
Just give them the info,let them do what they will with it.
Its all we can do.



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dabbler
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23:04:32 Nov 21 2008
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When peolple call others closed minded, afraid to believe, they are no better then the other religions that is my crux.



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leoderloewe14
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23:09:16 Nov 21 2008
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People that have experienced recent loss of a family member where they were not able to have closure tend towards being naive when it comes to Stage Psychics. Just to be picked out of a full audience... they then forget all common sense... I would never be a "shill" for a Sylvia Brown on a t.v. show or pay $1,000 for one of her 8-hour workshops. Then, be co-oersed into buying her books, magic jewelry, etc.

Leo



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Beastt17
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23:11:56 Nov 21 2008
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Why is it that I can legally purchase alcohol at 6:00AM on any day, Monday through Saturday, but on Sunday, I can't legally buy it until 10:00AM?

Why is it that in a country which is supposed to place individual rights as primary, most states have now prohibited same-sex marriage? Same-sex marriage infringes upon no one's rights. Prohibiting such marriage infringes upon everyone's rights.

Why is it that stem-cell research -- perhaps the most promising disease-curing research to come along in centuries -- has been stifled by government?

Why were 20-innocent people hanged in and around Salem in the 1690s?

Why were thousands of people tortured and killed during the Crusades and the Inquisition?

Why was it prohibited by law to teach evolution?

Why were 6-million people killed in an attempt to "cleanse" the human gene pool?

Why was it once strictly permissible to kill a native American but considered murder to kill a Caucasian living in America?

Why was it once considered kidnapping and murder to induct a Caucasian into involuntary servitude and beat him to death for failure to comply, but perfectly acceptable to do the same to a man of African descent?

Why have nearly 100,000 Iraqi nationals been killed on their home soil in the past 5-years?

Why were the Amalekites completely slaughtered including the children and infants?

Why were children and young virgins once tossed into the craters of active volcanoes?

Why have people been tied to stones and slowly cut apart, burned or had their hearts cut out while still beating?
---

This is but a very tiny and short list. But the answer to each and every question, at it's most fundamental, is the same; adherence to unevidenced beliefs.

And still we hear people wondering why anyone would care what they believe? We hear people insisting that certain beliefs shouldn't be open to discussion simply because someone has cared to label them "sacred".

The idea that any belief is "sacred" and therefore, exempt from rational and open discussion seems to have come from very ancient, primitive and superstitious times. It persisted through the Dark Ages when so many other absurd and ridiculous ideas and practices seemed to fizzle into non-existence. And it's still with us today. It's okay to label a belief "sacred" and discuss in favor of that belief, but many consider it improper or outright prohibit such discussion on a level playing-field where the strength of the points presented mean more than whether one is speaking for or against a particular concept. Unevidenced beliefs can't thrive in an atmosphere of open rational discussion. So those holding great affection for them have attempted to isolate them from the very system utilized in every other concept, to determine truth from false-hood.

Superstitious beliefs are dangerous. They have always been dangerous and show a continual repetitious nature of leading people to adopt and defend them violently. This nearly always leads to persecution, imprisonment and the killing of those who do not accept such beliefs. This kind of outcome is especially prominent with superstitions because superstitions cannot be rationally supported. Any rationally supported belief has no need for violent, forced adherence because it can stand on its own merit. It is only those beliefs which can offer no merit which, if they are to be held, must utilize irrationality and violence or threat of violence.

So why would anyone consider it wrong to discuss beliefs and to ask for support? What's wrong with testing a belief for validity? What's wrong with recognizing that some beliefs offer good reason for their adoption while others can offer nothing of any substance? Isn't that what the so-called "justice" system is designed to do? Don't we discuss various assertions and attempt to determine which are true and which are not?

To assert that it's wrong to discuss beliefs to determine if they have merit, is to suggest that searching for truth is somehow wrong. And it shouldn't matter that some have sorted this out for themselves while others have yet to do so or have ignored the evidence (or lack thereof), due to a preference of believing just what they like to believe. Belief in servitude to the emotions has never shown any tendency to lead people to truth. In fact, it has lead to a very long list of injustices, some of which are presented at the top of this post.

No one is being persecuted when asked to present support for their beliefs. Adherence to beliefs without support is where persecution begins. If a belief is wrong, no one should see any impropriety in demonstrating it to be incorrect. That's how we establish truth and learn about reality. And learning the truth is of great benefit to all, while adhering to falsehoods leads only to the perpetuation of ignorance, persecution, suffering, death, and the loss of ability to rationally assess concepts at all levels.

If one belief can be held to be true despite a complete lack of credible evidence, then why hold any evidence-based belief to be true? The entire system for learning the difference between reality and blind-assertion is lost and mankind, is likewise lost, for the lack of any means to know truth from falsehood.



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leoderloewe14
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23:19:58 Nov 21 2008
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It is secular-based believes that since the landing of the Pilgrims, the imposition of their religious-based laws, that still dictate today, that are the answers to your questions.

Leo



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Beastt17
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23:30:22 Nov 21 2008
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I'm not sure if I understand exactly what you're saying, Leo. Perhaps I'm misreading your post but it seems to me that you're attempting to blend secular-based beliefs and the Pilgrim's religious beliefs. And yet "secular" speaks of worldly as opposed to spiritual, and religion speaks of "spiritual" as opposed to worldly. They're on opposite sides; one fully evidenced and the other fully without evidence.

All unevidenced beliefs can be housed under the same roof. And all can be shown to lead to attempts to gain popular support through force, simply due to the fact that such beliefs hold nothing else in their favor. They are without support, other than that generated at the end of a whip, a sword, a gun or promise of a lengthy prison term.



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leoderloewe14
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00:00:23 Nov 22 2008
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I'm not sure if I understand exactly what you're saying, Leo. Perhaps, I'm misreading your post, but it seems to me that you're attempting to blend secular-based beliefs and the Pilgrim's religious beliefs.> I think you are... misreading... Yes, secular/religious

Either can be "evidenced" and have been throught the publication of books by both sides, religious and spiritual.

Oh, really?
That's a very narrow interpretation. In this day in age, who forces people to a believe by co-oersion?

Leo



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Oceanne
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00:09:44 Nov 22 2008
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"What's wrong with testing a belief for validity? What's wrong with recognizing that some beliefs offer good reason for their adoption while others can offer nothing of any substance? Isn't that what the so-called "justice" system is designed to do? Don't we discuss various assertions and attempt to determine which are true and which are not?"

Absoloutely! And thats why everyone should get into the fray and stop taking a little scrutiny so bloody hard.



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Beastt17
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00:28:37 Nov 22 2008
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Re: "I think you are... misreading... Yes, secular/religious"

I'm not sure if you're unfamiliar with the terms you're using, or if you're simply attempting to re-define words. "Secular" and "religious" are anything but the same thing. Secular is about worldly things and religion asserts to spiritual things. When a religious person mentions "secular", they're talking about that which is devoid of or contrary to religion.
---

Re: "Either can be "evidenced" and have been throught the publication of books by both sides, religious and spiritual."

Certain secular claims within religious texts have been evidenced (i.e. locations of cities, destruction of buildings and certain wars). The claims of gods, spirits, angels, demons, after-lives and other strictly spiritual/religious things have never been supported via any objective evidence -- ever -- throughout the tens of thousands of years that such beliefs have persisted. That's why they're called "faith-beliefs", because they cannot be supported through evidence. Once someone has supporting evidence, faith doesn't and can't be the basis for their belief.
---

Re: "That's a very narrow interpretation. In this day in age, who forces people to a believe by co-oersion?"

Have you looked at the forum rules? Try saying anything negative about religion sometime. ;)

If you go to Christian sites, you'll find yourself in hot water for any argument in opposition to Christianity even in the sections they set aside for apologetics.

Go to a highly religious neighborhood and engage them in a discussion which leaves them wanting for evidence and you'll likely find yourself warned by police that if you don't desist and leave, you'll be charged with disorderly conduct.

And in my former post, I already listed a number of legislated items which are all born on the basis of unevidenced religious beliefs; (i.e. time of sales for alcohol being different on the most popular Sabbath day, restrictions on science research based on unevidenced religious beliefs concerning reproductive tissues and the same-sex marriage issues as well). It's all around you. Not noting that doesn't mean it isn't there.


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lavisbre
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00:57:32 Nov 22 2008
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Was it too stump skeptics?
Not sure how to stump someone who doesn’t believe in anything… or want to stump anyone… debate yes, laugh .. yes … make friends … yes.
Hammer a repetitive view to death …. No lol

I just wondered what Everyone’s agenda was as I noticed a dramatic onslaught to quieter occult beliefs.
Thought that odd on a vampire site ….

Like a Christian sight slammed for saying Jesus was alive coz there is no scientific proof?



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Beastt17
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00:58:14 Nov 22 2008
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lavisbre,

I'm not certain as to whom your question is directed. But unless I've misunderstood, I think people are generally referring to the main question in the opening post; "why do you wish to silence occult things under the false blanket of “scientific proof” or skeptic (frightened to believe)?"

And as long as we're addressing this, what makes you think that basing beliefs on objective evidence is in any way, a "false blanket"?

Can you show me where such a system is false? Can you show me any system which has been more productive or even as productive?

And contrary to your assertions, skeptics aren't frightened to believe. We simply find no cause to believe in anything for which there exists no cause to believe.



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Beastt17
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01:12:52 Nov 22 2008
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Re: "Was it too stump skeptics?
Not sure how to stump someone who doesn’t believe in anything..."


What makes you think skeptics "don't believe in anything"? We obviously believe in objective evidence, otherwise we wouldn't keep asking you to support your beliefs with objective evidence. But we don't simply choose objective evidence as a standard by picking at random from a number of potential means of support. We do so based on the fact that such a standard has repeatedly and continually shown itself to be the most productive factor in leading to confirmable discoveries and demonstrable truths.

The sad thing is; you do exactly the same thing. When you want to know how much money you have in your bank account, do you consider whether you "feel" rich or poor today, do you burn herbs hoping it will raise the balance or do you check the actual confirmable status of your account?

When you want to know if you need to fuel your vehicle before making a substantial trip, do you look to the winds, meditate and place a crystal in your gas tank or do you look at the gauge?

You use objective evidence in every single facet of your life and rely upon it through every moment of every day. Were it ever to let you down, your very life might hang in the balance. It's only when you don't like what the objective evidence is telling you that you instead turn away from its message and insist that it's wrong. You do so only to serve your emotional desires, and not in any search for truth. If you were searching for truth, you'd likely find less animosity toward those who are telling you how truth is found and how false-hoods have been supported through subjectivity, all throughout human history.

As for your final comment, there are claims made in a few texts, all of which have a specific agenda. When looking for claims of support through the writings of the historians of the day, even those most likely to have made notations to what is claimed to be the most extraordinary events and person throughout the history of mankind, we find virtually nothing. It's not terribly different than looking to the story of "Little Red Riding Hood" in a search for evidence that wolves are clever enough to disguise themselves as grandparents. Certainly you can find such a claim. You can even find references to the story of Little Red Riding Hood within other texts. But when it comes to finding support for such claims in the very places they should most likely be, aside from documents designated specifically for such an agenda, there is no evidence to be found.

Again, beliefs devoid of objective evidence simply hold no reason to garner belief. Beliefs held without supporting objective evidence have never once been confirmed to be true -- ever. Holding onto such beliefs is something done without reason and with no regard to rationality.

We know what tests can reveal truths. But we also know that when concepts fail such tests, those subscribing to such concepts as truth, are not likely to recognize the outcome. They hold their own subjective assessment to be more indicative of reality than the methods shown time and time again to be vastly superior to personal subjectivity.


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lavisbre
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01:19:45 Nov 22 2008
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I think science is a false blanket people hide under, smother or whip.
I see science as a money making machine that ignores mans spiritual development.
Using it to beat people silent on occult and spiritual matters on a occult web site I find it odd..



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dabbler
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01:26:32 Nov 22 2008
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All the times I hear people that believe argue about how they interprete their belief or text..



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lavisbre
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01:29:01 Nov 22 2008
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Funny analogy gas tank and crystals .. which would you use..lol
Well if your “gas tank has a faulty pump gauge .. would it be better to ask the gods? Funny when one changes the goal post your lead down one answer… if you say you would rather trust a faulty pump rather than speak with your spiritual side .. then were done and I see your agenda ..



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Beastt17
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01:32:36 Nov 22 2008
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Re: "I think science is a false blanket people hide under, smother or whip.
I see science as a money making machine that ignores mans spiritual development.
Using it to beat people silent on occult and spiritual matters on a occult web site I find it odd.."


And yet, you have no evidence to support your beliefs about science. But the real telling item is this; you can offer no more credible evidence to support your spiritual beliefs than science can. ;)

Yet you fault science because it doesn't adhere to your personal subjective wants and then pat yourself on the back for adhering to your personal subjective wants.

Suppose a Muslim feels that science should support their beliefs and a Christian feels science should support theirs rather than those of Islam? What is science to do?

There is but one proper thing for science to do and that is to continue researching evidence and maintain a strict regard for objective evidence and adherence to the lessons learned about subjectivity.

When you can offer science objective evidence upon which to perform research, then you'll have room to berate science if it doesn't. Until then, you'll just have to admit that you can't offer science anything with which to support your subjective assertions. And if you can't and others with contrary beliefs can't, then none should expect science to make a blind choice in their favor. What it boils down to is that you don't like science because it refuses to bend to anyone's subjective whims -- particularly, yours. But if science were to emerge in favor of a belief contrary to one of your own, and yet couldn't produce evidence to support its choice, you'd have a hissy.

Yes, I can type. Thank you for noticing. :-)


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Beastt17
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01:33:46 Nov 22 2008
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If my gas tank had a faulty gauge, how might I test for that? Do you suppose using tests based on objectivity might yield the best results? ;)

Or should I get angry at my gas tank for failing to comply with the reading on the gauge.



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VR System
VR System

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01:33:46 Nov 22 2008
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This thread has been automatically closed for length.



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