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Was the last thread....lets keep it going, this is a good thread.

How about what practical purpose has the concept of dieties served?

What about the concept of universal sources aside from deities?

Coal and gasoline?

How are these gods?

Dabbler -- I think that the primary practical purpose of deities has been explaining the unknown in a manner that bind co-believers together. Sadly, this has also resulted in conflict between groups who have differing beliefs.

Very true edta,


There is little diffrence, but that has made more then one group, but they believe in the same god.

There are very few religeous factions out there that fight. All of them that are fighting are fighting to defend their way of life: Orange/Green, Sufi/Sunni/Shi'i, Israel/Palestine, FSM/ID, Crusader/Islam.

Although I know many of you would like to pin the mistakes of man on his spirituality, that would be in error. It is not teh spiritual men that make these errors... it is covetous, fearful and prideful leaders of stagnation that are the purpatrators of animosity which the faithful feal they must defend themselves against.

Excuse me, Nyx is a female.

Remember, think of all gods when posting here...please?

Point taken...

however it is harder to prove pagan benifits to humanity. The evidence is harder to gather as they had no written documentation. Pagan beliefs are precurser to Single God belief systems and you must look to less measurable advancements between beeting people on the heads with clubs for sex/food/shelter, and reading.

But it is harder to prove advancements that are older than 5000 years.

Single god is genderless, english has only two genders in it's gramatics... Masculine is the generally accepted neuter form.

Errata:

If there are gods (or God) then there are likely to be after life (and deity intervention) benifits as well, that I will not go into.

Cmon Kglitterous there is no need to brake it now, explain us your point of view on after life and possible deity interventions and benefits as well, be cause different point of views might bring all of us to the closer unification theory on concept of god, you know, broaden our views, be cause in nature we all carry different message which should be shared.

Immortality,
Reunion with loved ones,
No physical limitations

etc.

they are all things we are familiar with.

The trappings differ from religeon to religeon, but they are effectively the same.

If you introduce hell as a concept, believing in god becomes even more desirable.
I couldn't care less for the concept of hell, but there are many who do nothing without the fear of consequence... so I am sure there is consequence, it just does not affect my reasoning in reguard to afterlife. The image of hell is a physical representation of the spiritual anguish a person will feel when realization of teh mistakes tehy have made and teh pain you have caused others becomes fully manifest.

I will accept that realization: and hope that my crimes against humanity are less than my spiritual strengths.

But "salvation" and "eternal life," are not the only things that spirituality has going for it.

Afterlife without god concepts are also possible... so the "reward of eternal pleasure" is insufficient as a motivationfor belief in deity.

So it safe to conclude from one side, that people believe in God mostly out of fear only? They imagined this whole idea be cause they fear.

There must be some people who imagine god as fearful... but I assert that there are a lot more people who imagine gravity as fearful.

There is only 1 God and that is the Lord Jesus Christ, The King of Kings.

my opinions on god (christian god) is its just a way for organized religion to rule the masses by instilling a fear of being condemned to hell. . .what better way to control free people then to make them fear what they do no matter where they are (although the bible says man should not be shown fear) . . .also pisses me off that the bible says the meek should inherit the earth while religions such as Catholic have the vatican built by all their greed of making people give money to "god". . .god dont need money! and the world treats the pope like some sorta god when hes just a man. . .blah bullcrap!

If there was no fear of God...there would be no fear of Man. Think about it. The hardcore criminals? The murderers and rapists? They do not fear your God/dess.

Those who create War over religion? Do not fear your God/dess, and DO fear their own God/dess to the point that they are willing to kill those who do not fear.

Without God/dess...Man would have to rely on himself to create law, order, and rules. And would have only himself to blame when it fails.

God is Fear. For nothing motivates Man like Fear. Fear will make mother abandon child, father strike son, son and daughter wage war, man and wife split asunder.

So enjoy yer deities. And the fear they engender.

I spent a week in the superdome...
I saw a hell of a lot of fear in that place.
And to a point... you are correct.

There becomes a point when a person matures beyond self... beyond personal fear... and sometimes beyond all fear at all.

Initial experience with something fearful is the first level, and acceptance the last.

The stage of innocence is similar to the last stage but what makes a cow holy, does not make a man holy.
Innocence in a child is an exemption... denial is not.

This is how I see fear relative to God.

The phrase " God fearing " means nothing to me.

On the contrary, loving, period is all about letting go of fear.

You All talk as if God is something to fear, The Bible says that in the begining God was vengeful and spitful because he didn't understand why man did what he did, but After the Coming of Jesus, (God sent a part of himself down in human form) God felt Pain, Misery, and Understood humanity alot better

Man can create an Atom that don't mean we fully understand it that's why they have to split it, to look inside, to see what is there.

God did create Humans, but he had to see for himself what we were capable of, see what all the fuss was about and why we did what we did, After that God was no longer Spitful, Vengeful, He is only love and the bible says that in the new testament we should not fear God for as long as you hold Jesus Christ as your Savior no harm can come to you....

so should we fear God for the ability to send us into an unpleasant place No I do not believe so.

How can God be angry with us when he is busy making the world beautiful, painting the skies, coloring the grass and trees....

it's not governmental control I am not being controled if you listen to the sermons of my Life Center (not a church) they only talk of Gods love, and how the world should be perfect if all religions would just respect each other I believe christians don't fight because of fear, Christians fight to rid the wrong, to stop prostotution, child molestation, crimes against humanity we try to help people who are to weak to fight against the regimes of the world that keep their own people down, When the Bible said the weak will inherit the Earth it will happen one of two ways

I posted this in another thread but watch the movie "Life after People" grass is weak, the trees are weak, but given time when humans leave and they are no longer here, the Earth will reclaim itself.

or

the strong will fight the battles, win the wars and when all who are oppressed are freed the tough the strong the ones who fought will be gone and all that are left are the weak.....

The concept of God is to control the masses by fear or by faith.

How is it Control if I were to never go to my Life Center again, just sit at home but I still prayed, the Government can't hear me, Not unless Obama is God..... we won't get into that...

if I am in my home and I pray, and I have my cross in my living room and around my neck.

How are they controling me, they can't control what I think is beautiful, they definately don't control what I am going to buy or not buy.

even if Christianity didn't exist, if deities, Gods, Goddesses didn't exist I would still have my collection of crosses, I find them peaceful, beautiful.

The people who think Christianity is Control I have always personally felt they were the ones being controled, I don't feel that way anymore, because the bible says we should not judge others lest ye be judged.

Is the Government going to control what happens to me when I die, I don't think so, that's what a Will is for I have the last say in what is going to happen, whether I want to be burried or burned. and only God can tell me if I am going to Heaven, Hell or somewhere inbetween.

Your all stuck on the idea that faith is out of fear.

I don't warship my enemies. i'd rather destroy them.


and...

SouthernOutlaw....No, not the only god. Nyx is my god, she is my savor, my deity...

In my view you don't need a god/goddess to guide your life, you have the ability to control your life and at will admire other points,views, perspective, philosophies and wonders without using any scale of what you must do to be a swell subscriber of any doctrine or higher purpose representation of deities; we have in our disposal the individuality as rational beings to do with our lives what one wants in regards of your personal observation and interpretation, not something told, taught, shown or "witnessed" to you as a "truth". Most of the ritual practices of many doctrines, philosophies tries to enmark the notion that they are correct and everything in their rites are correct, and others are wrong, then the subscribers follow this teachings as a factible source enclosing your views in utter misinformation- so everything in counter of your beliefs is wrong and you are always right with the only evidence of personal experience" that the god has lead them to whatever he witnessed or done somewhere", so a substancial amount of society believe "gays are evil/ wrong" by their book, or that "girls showing legs and face are whorish" by their books, and promises of an amazing afterlife if you follow the teachings, If you are not following we all know "our demise"> yeah umm i read a post before mine talking about that he/she doesn't think she has freedom, all I can say is " is the same ignorance that binds an large amount of the world, and is about the same amount that propel wars in to men". Its all chain reactions, simply some are so blinded by their beliefs that are restricted to think out side the covers.

I agree Rev.. but, that's the vast majority of the public as well. I on the other hand have never thought myself as the General public I am in essence a contradiction to everything the general public is, women showing legs thats not whorish in my book and in the Center we have girls, teens, even some older women wearing the shortest of the shortest shorts. we have a few skeptics, anti-socials, even Gays and Lesbians. and everyone in the Center gets along. we are there for one purpose to hear about the bible and how other people interpret the teachings...

the purpose of the bible there is only one God Loves you, simple as that whether you believe, love, worship or not, Or even how you worship, it don't matter he loves you unconditionally.

and that's all there is to it

I believe in study, I think that everyone should seek their own answers. I've read Darwin, the Bible, teh Koran, The Gita, Anton Levay, and the Tao of Pooh *laughs*

I do think that a person owes it to themself to explore each possibility tehy are confronted with (being faithful to themself while doing it) before they shun it.

Open yourself to a possibility instead of making rationalizations not to examine it.

I think that goes for both sides.

When one those (what the member above said) could reach the state of understanding every point of view, one "can" judge with a free/safe standing of what is the human behavior on all points is, vastly free from any misinformation or misinterpretation less from biased guidance.

There will always be misinformation, science expects that... it is better not to judge when you examine things... it skews the results.

Two other concepts for believers to consider,

One not all who are skeptics never believed in, or practiced/ studied.

Two,

Believers should be open to the Concept that a majority of skeptics are indifferent to their beliefs, practices.

Yup...


but if you were truely indifferent...
you'd get the hell out of this topic.

But since "you" are here...
we must presume that "you" are interested.

So I ask, as a person who IS interested, that we are open minded about the topics that are broached.

"Your beliefs are feable." is that what you want to hear?

I left myspace because of crusaders for beliefs, and how "spiritual" rather the " religious" people are, and how " tolerent" they are, tolerent of religions that denounces their very abridged practices.

What insults me, and stirs more skeptics to become cynical, is all the huberis that comes with believers, especially believers that consistently imply, that their faith is somehow obviously logical, and more rational then all the others ( whom they claim to be open minded to)

Be spiritual, but get off your matter of fact high horse.
And maybe stop scoffing, and pshawing people that font subscribe to your " Well those nonbelievers.. Da just gonna have to get along with the way things are " it is just short of being a sermon!

Your speculations are no more valid, or pertainent, then anyone elses.

I have more respect for the " Unknownist" then God pushers.

Can this thread be buried already?

YOung Kids these days they think they know everything,

when I was younger I thought atheism was the way to go too, then wiccan and everything else but nothing ever fit.

I was living life, I was breathing but I wasn't happy, I wasn't having fun it wasn't till I found God and started praying that things just came never thought I would have a house, in my private time when my kids were asleep I would pray and ask God to help get me on my feet now I have a three bedroom town home,

when I need money for food or diapers I ask God and tell him if it is his will please let it be and you know what I somehow always make it through from one paycheck to another the way it happens should not technically happen but when you walk outside and find a twenty laying on your doorstep or you get a piece of mail that has no return address and you pull a fifty out.

don't tell me there is NO God I'm sorry but God does answer prayers, He says Ask of me what you will in true faith and through love you shall recieve.

it's not that he wants people to go to war for him, that's not what he wants at all (Grimora ?) he told them to stop fighting, they didn't he destroyed their town. God doesn't want war, He wants peace.

Zeitgeist is a "good" documentary that can show you many of the historical misconceptions regarding on divinities of presumed Gods, prophets and teachers..

Zeitggeist was a fantastic movie... I've seen it a couple of times. I recomend it to everyone. It's a little harder to find in it's entirety tehse days... but it is out there.

No K Litter I follow you well in this thread. The hubris I speak of is from Mo'

You have a settled take on your beliefs, Mo' is a preacher, who is on a Vampire Site with the ballocks to preach.

It is getting rather winded this whole thread. Your reasoning has shamed the hyper farcical faith of Mo'.

Ps Mo' your god works for you? Yea.. get over others not buying how aspecial you are for believing.

Mo' your smug intro to your post really shows how most people view those who follow religion.

Really are you proud if yourself, do you pride yourself on being the pillar of believers? This thread needs to close already.

Perhaps you could find a site that caters to believers Mo'.

Dabbler, there is no reason this thread needs to close. The only problem with it currently is you. If you are no longer interested in the discussion, then don't click the little link on the forum page to open it, don't read it, and don't post in it. If you continue the abusive course you've begun of bashing other's beliefs and telling them they should go elsewhere when they have every right to share their opinions here, it is you that will have to voice your opinions elsewhere.

The critical component to discussions about religion is respect. Disagree and voice those disagreements all you want, but don't forget that the other side of the conversation disagrees with you as well, and have every right to.

And to whoever said something about this being a pointless conversation because noone's beliefs change, that is entirely wrong. Putting yourself in the mindset of refusing to change causes you to refuse to consider new ideas. As Plato said, question everything. If your faith is sound, questions will only strengthen your beliefs.

That aside, I like the idea of god being fear. I also believe in the universe as a form of god, but I favor the idea of a collective consciousness more than an individual consciousness behind the universe. It is more the idea of everything being interconnected and together creating an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent 'being.' Fear is definitely a driving force behind many religions, and for the most part, humanity as a whole. Fits very well with Nietzsche's Will to Power and disdain of Christianity as well.

I M following the discussion, I find Klitter very reasoning, Mo' is rather insulting to nonbelievers. It is a Two way thing .. Respect.. Is it not?

I don't see how this thread relates to the sermon Mo' posted.

The implication that people without some accepted concept of deity are lost, or closed minded, is just as insulting as cynics calling religious, or " spiritual" believers delusional. So I will be consistently addressing such things as they appear in forums.

What ever concept works for a person.. but with some that is not enough.. they want others to resign to their default concept.. what does this thread have to do with Dark Network?

Modius has valid points, and I can see where his passion would frustrate you, especially as you have to look a little harder for the gems in what he is saying.
You will see that he has far fewer posts than you, (as does nearly everyone,) and you may be curtailing a valuable resource to VR. There are better ways of letting him know he has gone a little over the top, we all do that on occasion. In the beginning moreso than later, or perhaps it is for always, and others just get used to us. *laughs*

*gem*
There is a state of being, where you rely entirely on god to provide your nessesity. Everything that is not provided is not a nessesity and therefor a test of character and an opportunity for learning.

You could theoretically put this faith in other things, I supose, and have a similar euphoria. It is like living a life in a perpetual state of visionquest. Contiguous self analysys, and a humbling befor something greater than yourself. Downside is that if you believe it is better than yourself, it must be better than other men also.

Would you put faith in science to provide you with, diapers, if you were beyond hope or reasoning to aquire them by yourself?

What about Gaia providing you food and water while you lived in a city after losing your house?

Destitution, can deepen your faith in your core belief, whether it is, mental, spiritual, or social, or outright survival.

There are people content without being in perpetual awe of a promise.

Some need to remember that churches are where people gather to converse about such personal shared beliefs. If the opt to do so in an open venue, they will be confronted when their sermonizing chaffs the sensibility
of others.

Calling or implying those who do not share beliefs "kids" is an insult, the term open minded, and closed minded is an insult.

Not many believers are open minded to the concept that their faith could be
Based on a persistant myth.

So I thank you Klitter. My Tact is often off a nudge or two.

As always you and I can relate on a few common denominators. You have
a consistent concept involving your faith.

wow dabbler...looks like every other post...you really are the post master general sir.

that said, i have a close friend that is an atheist...she has no faith of any kind in some spiritual somthing greater than herself. she is a fine person, with high morals.

so faith isnt needed to be a good person....

i think its just how you see the universe and yourself....i personally see the gods in many things...i study physics and i often find myself going..."wow". it goes back to something bigger than me. for those that want to find a reason to believe but just dont...look up the number "phi" and look at its place in the universe...its kind of creepy in a way...some have refered to it as gods calling card.

i dont believe in the bible by the way...i call myself asatru but at the same time i dont think that is quite right either....still i have seen some crazy stuff and felt some stuff as well.....
i know...very subjective stuff...thats fine...it works for me.
~W~

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66GMEFuYW8M&feature=related

I appologize Dabbler,

I didn't mean to offend you or Atheists in general it's just that every atheist I have ever met has always been about the same age as I was when I started looking to other beliefs seeing as I am older now its I guess a common thing with me all my friends 27 and younger all seem to not have a belief and I love them they are great friends..... but "kids these days" it's a general term my own father uses it all the time.

No offense met but older people, Gentleladies and Gentlemen up in years most of all I know personally are now one religion or another....

so again I appologize.....

and about being a pastor, I am more of a Gothic Pastor than a Pastor. the Teens relate to it more and can take what I say and what I talk about and think it over, and about the Preaching I wasn't trying too when I read over my posts they don't sound like preaching to me they sound more like me trying to get my point heard just as you are I do have a very open mind.....I have watched both ZeitGeist one and two and alot of it don't make sense I checked out how they talk about the stars lining up they don't I feel they photoshoped those stars in that alignment to try and make a point cause both my wife, and my friend David have looked and just don't match anything.....

just one point don't yell at me for that

again just trying to take part in the discussion if everyone feels I am being to preachy I can leave I don't want to ruin any potentially good friendships we may have here.

Hehe yeah the alignment is right; as the transitions between ages in regards with the zodiac of ancient times, and so is the similiarities between the egyptian god-king and jesus, and so is all the stories of past prophets/orators/godkings/messengers, in many different countries, similar in how they "came" and "departed" in regards of divinity. Many things described in the Old Testament of the Christian bible "is/are" vastly plagerized by many other ancient civilizations, mostly by sumerians/babylonian texts; the whole origin myth/ genesis is taken from sumerians and some said the serpent god of sumerians were put as the devil in the Christian bible. And to think the Earth was created as described in the Bible; is really really inconsistent with many many evidence pilling by the tons. And you could've been skeptic when young, and then polytheistic wiccan, but is very ignorant to think we "kids" or anyone non-Chistian subscriber to tone your views as if we are a group of lost lambs or teens without maturity of what is the found "truth" in your "experienced/witnessed" perspective. I could say the other way around, from my viewpoints,but I have tolerance for ignorants, specially fundamentalist; they cant never be wrong 'cause the book says everything about everything/everyone in their eyes.

again as I said Revenous I didn't mean it as a put down and I wasn't saying you are kids for thinking or believing the way you do and I appologize if anyone is taking it that way, it's a common term for old foggies to call a younger generation Kids it's not a put down I am in my thirties my parents are in their fifties they still call me and my wife both Kids. it's something that just happens from generation to generation I guess to show a gap in age but it's how I grew up talking just like when I call a female Love or Luv I ain't saying I love them it's just something I do, how I talk.....

so I am sorry, and I do admitt when I am wrong. I am wrong alot just ask mourningpenguin.

Ahem. You never grow out of fear. Ever. No such creature exists, who is without fear.

And yes. If you are sitting in your house praying, you are not outside, changing the world, for better or worse.

You're sitting at home. Praying. Removing yourself from any ability to affect the world according to your whims.

Also? Speaking of Busy?

If God is all powerful...why would he needed to have rested after the First Week...and why did it take a week?

Are you saying that the Dali Lama has not changed the world because he prays more than you?

Fear wiill always exist because there will always be things unknown to us. After you break through your fear and become familiar with it, fear subsides.

Can we get back to the topic please...

This thread is not about debunking one religion's creation myth or how litteraly they interpret their texts.

The comment is a result response from the previous posts is not deviating anything, so if you actually read the course of discussion you wouldn't be redirecting here with authority you surely don't have, so how about you shift the conversation with a comment relating like you adviced, isn't that the way to do it? Before intruding in others course of discussion.

Amen, ToiletDuc, I couldn't agree more with you!

Everyone is intitled to their own concepts, and more so their opionons!

it is my opinion that those who have pet beliefs are using this thread as a pulpit.

I meant t-monk's nonsequiter about God resting on the 7th day. That entire post was addressing that post.

Some can imagine how the concept of gods are attractive to people.

I can imagine how practicing Zen can comfort a persons mind.

Metaphysics can present people with a way to gather with others.

However when such people start to rant spectulating on how nonbelievers receive their dogma, or claimed experiences tied to that belief.

It is insulting, I never said I was an atheist, or a skeptic for that matter.
I could be a Buddist, and I would take offense to some of the post here.

It is one thing to expect tolerence of anothers belief, but reverence?

Concept of god,
if you need one fine
but keep it to you
and fellow believers
avoid refering to nonbelievers
as closed minded
learn the difference between
skeptic, atheist, snd cynic

Reverence (respect) comes from not feeling superior to someone else. If you do not revere something it is because you think that you are superior. It's possible that you could have more knowledge or experience, than another, but does it make you a better person than them?

The concept of "God is one" illustrates this. If you believe all things come from a single source, and that that source was perfect (and thereby everything it created is perfect) then all things are equal... and you must revere all things.

It seams more likely that the periodic table of elements would indicate a class structure at the base level. I am not sure how waves are classified... but surely the tendancy for science to classify things at all, indicates that you can only revere what is greater than you on the class system.

Kllitter I would like to see how that would develop in a thread of it's own.

TheScybermonk > There are many who believe that prayer does bring about change.

Even if you consider prayer a form of mental checklist, it works...

I supose it depends a bit on how you pray...

"dear gods, give me money, I spent it all on hash, and now I have no money for that 100 to 1 longshot tommorrow... I know one of you motherf...rs is a luck god"

Obviously not good goal setting.

But better than nothing I supose.

all through different civilizations, one theme is noted. everyone prayed to something, faith in no matter what religion is what got the people through. wether it was the pagan gods of old to the more secular religions of today.

Secular religion, how curious such a phrase is, it suggest what many nonbelievers are aware of, people seek ammendments to what ever Belief they have, they manipulate the restrictive Concept of the diaty to suit their needs. My post are done here.

Thsnk you that last post was very refreshing.

bmp.

Many religions have some form of the same God just different aspects. Judaism, Christianity and Muslim have the same God just different belief systems. In essence God takes many different forms depending on the religion. Wicca has God/Goddess but varies depending on culture and location.

The concept of Religions is something overrated and unnecessary to our system, weather the concept of God exist or not why would the creator be molding every life journeys of every individual he/she/it designs, thats why prayers get disillusioned at the end, people need to accept responsability, stop wasting time in external influences and start reforming him/herself into new paradigms, not a god/s, our guide are the experiences, not a book or word written/passed by man.

It what taints our progression and understanding of the true essence as a rational group in this planet, we treat each other like as if we were teenagers, this arrogance is building even more upon every person seeded in modern society, where you are taught to stick up for yourself and the others to sink, a system of self gratification, self conformity, popularity, competition, arrogance, superficial and stratification, we have innocent people (kids) dying in the other side of the planet of hunger while in this side if you don't get your burger right they have to dump it and make you a new one, I mean when is it that people going to break out from a system weather religious or political and think of growing out of fear both implements.

Few examples of how detrimental religion has gotten to our way of living and thus "our" way of spreading the "truth":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpNxwvKOpJk&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OvVd3VH3f4&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYW2xXxFVtU&feature=related