There are those who have knowledge and those who talk of having it.
And, amongst those who have it, there are those who wish to selfishly [my opinion] retain what they have, as [in my opinion], it gives them power over others..
What do others think?
Those who spout opinions that they claim to be drawn from mystic knowledge are most annoying.
In those cases it is often found that the individual lacks even general knowledge, and wisdom.
Thus, the "knowledge" they allude to is pretense, or fabrication.
Upir makes a valid point. Fake knowledge for lack of a better word can be dangerous if the person recieving it believes in it blindly.
i think Angelus means truth rather than just knowledge. Cuz i can see how someone with-holding actual truth could be selfish.
Frankly, it's far scarier when someone claims to reveal "Truth" as usually (not always) those that do are deliberately trying to finding "followers" of their "Truth." And that's how cults and other abusive quasi-religious groups get started.
That Truth.. ahh yes..
Cabron, I have truth for you, just buy my book.
Actually come to my free seminar. I have reservations at the hotel I am holding it at.
Practical knowledge is wisdom, and it is available to all who pursue an education, those who want to shortcut
through life, will constantly be at the mercy of those who
exploit such people.
I always wonder when someone alludes to having some deep knowledge of something occult related, what purpose does it make, whats the big deal..
It mostly appears they just want to impress, or intimated their peers, or those of a lesser age then them.
Exactly so, dabbler.
In fact, just about the only ones who claim to have the "Truth" are ... religions and cults.
Ask the Catholics, the Mormons, the Scientologists, the Moslems, and on and on almost ad infinitum what it is they teach and how such differs from that taught by all others. And without a doubt they will all boldly claim to have, to teach and to practice "the Truth."
Hence the reason for my earlier post: If someone claims to profess "the Truth" ... run!
- Upir'
(Bows)
Well it is bad when one wish to know something and person does not unveil that. My degree college economics teacher Mr. Sadashivan who was charging usd 100 = inr 5000 per month for economics subject if any body wished after college hours, did not charge me at all for when ever I had confusion over the topics, I went to him he used to teach and guide me. He was in the board of University too in Bombay University.
Parting the knowledge with others makes the union of conscious.
(Bows)
I apologize for word parting.
Sharing the knowledge with others makes the union of conscious.
...and the Truth Shall Set You Free...:)
I must agree concurently with Upir...those who say they "have the truth"..the knowledge to higher consciousness and yet only delegate it out upon conditions and prerequisites...RUN!!!...ahhh....they are turly the Body Snatchers in disguise!!!...:P
Truth is discovered in the pursuit of Knowledge ..and revealed through the manifestation of Wisdom...while there are many knowledgable people in the world, not all have Wisdom and thus are limited by the cold, hard facts of that learned Knowledge...Wisdom to utilize Knowledge in applications of our daily life...reveals certain Truths that free us from our predisposed inhibitions dependent upon our society, culture and relgious beliefs.
Knowledge is Power but only to those who understand the Wisdom of Knowledge is Knowing you Know Nothing at All...basically..even the most educated person in the world can fall flat on their face and look like a complete nicompoop...so get over yourself..you're just not all that and a bag of tater-chips..;)
I think most people have the knowledge already within themselves, at least what is most important to oneself.
I would imagine that certain truths or facts as we know of today or have been taught can change tomorrow, or down the road as a new piece of history is found, for example.
Withholding knowledges from society could be for protective reasonings as Upir suggested.
I think those who crave power are probably seeking out more knowledge to feed their own desires as some believe Hitler tried to do.
Then we have "useless knowledges" as they say. Information we take in that isn't really neccessary but fun to know.
But for those who do hold knowledges and aren't very outspoken about it, i respect more because it's those that you usually have to gain trust with over time and they don't use it to gain anything from it.
After reading the thread till now, I came to opinion that, precious knowledge of Wisdom can not separate peepal from each other. But it changes the person in its life. The knowledge which separate the person from others and classify them above common peepal can not be the knowledge of wisdom.
Actually, Silverhawk, that's not quite what I'm saying. Permit me to attempt a bit of clarification.
Anyone who professes to know "the Truth" and to then attempt to teach it openly and to, in such a manner, amass followers or "disciples" or clients or customers (however you wish to portray the recipients)... does NOT know "the Truth." Regardless whether there are any apparent prerequisites or obligations or conditions for full disclosure or not, "the Truth" is not and cannot be pre-packaged and, in effect, marketed thusly.
The only real "truth" one can be rock-solid certain is being taught by such a would-be "Teacher" is that such a person is, to whatever extent, appeasing his/her own narcissistic needs, first and foremost.
Thus, again... if anyone openly proclaims to the world that they know and wish to teach "the Truth"... run!!!
- Upir'
NephthysRising - I think most people have the knowledge already within themselves, at least what is most important to oneself.
You are absolutely on the right road with this. My only caveat to that would be to point out that it is not knowledge we already possess but, instead, what we do all possess inside are the ungerminated seeds of ability and potential for learning and growth that only we alone can water and nurture.
As I believe you are pointing out, WE are our own best teachers... for good or ill... depending on whether we have the wisdom and humility to seek the Light and Truth all around us so as to truly grow, or whether our motivations are primarily centered on vanity, pride and self-gratification that inhibits learning and turns one away from the Light.
- Upir'
Oh dearest Upir...I certainly agree with you on all those points...perhaps it was just me and my random thoughts...my irksome, quirky sense of humor is muddling things yet again...I fall flat upon my own face with that Body Snatcher joke...:P
Simply put...those who would be "in the know" that purport to have the "only" Truth surely cannot. It is unfortunate, in reflection of my own observations of little backwoods, country churches that so devoutly and blindly follow thier religious leaders upon a pedestal of so-called sacred Truth. Such devotion is inherent upon the mass audience delgating Truth as something to be "taught" to them and not reckognizing that Truth is found from within...but only if one is willing to "seek" the knowledge in order to grow in every aspect and developing Wisdom.
For example: I attended a revival in a black southern Baptist church years ago and was enjoying the revelry and worship services very much...but then I realized just how terribly ignorant those who were so joyful in their praises when a young teenage girl fell out in the floor suffering from an obvious Grand-mal seizure.
The reaction of those all around was to immediately gather around the girl seizing and start praying and laying hands on her. It was what was being said in those prayers that disturbed me most...as they were "praying the devil" out..she was "possessed" and the church was "under attack" in the midst of their revival. Disturbing...truly...and this is going on still..today...simply because "people suffer for lack of knowledge."
I being of medical mind, broke the crowd up and appeased everyone there that this child was having an epileptic seizure and they needed to stand back and give her room and "oxygen" as the building was getting unbearably hot due to so many bodies and most likely the reason the girl had the seizure. She finally came to, confused and with a headache. I instructed someone to please bring a cold rag and some water to her and a dose of ibuprofen. Everyone was confused and alarmed.
This congregation "thought" that what they knew as the "truth" regarding this girl...as she was prone to do this many times in the past...as being demon-possessed was in acutality a true medical condition. I spent time after services came to a close and spoke with her and her family about the importance of seeking medical help with their doctor and to get her to a neurologist where she could get on medications that would help prevent her seizures and hopefully keep them from becoming worse and perhaps causing coma and death as her type is one of the more dangerous kind.
This was all so new...they were incredulous to the facts...an at first did not want to hear of it...as the reasoning in their mind was this poor girl was possessed and thus was in attendance in their church in the hopes that God would "heal" her of her affliction.
I argued to the fact ...that if this was "true" ...then my being there at their revival was God's way of finding her the proper help in "healing" her affliction....as God doesn't always work in ways expected. This...made sense as it touched their interpretation of the Truth...now whether they took the information I gave them and actually followed up on that, I do not know..as it was a "one-time" visitation.
Knowledge can be imparted to others freely in the hope that they will accept it and consider it, but whether or not they act upon that knowledge is based entirely upon their interpretation and capacity of comprehension.
If people are so devoid of such understanding, then they are easily led down paths that do not truly benefit their lives or the lives of those around them...just as this family was led to believe their daughter was "demon-possessed" when in fact she has a medical condition that requires effective treatment.
Retain this.....The truth is.....there is no truth. Only opinions of what that particular individual sees or hears, or experiences. Truth is in the eyes of the beholder.
.. well, look at England, 400 years ago, or so ~ and the Church's restoration and, the abolition of Latin from our Chrches. Till then, only those with power vested in them from the Vatican could control the populace, with the teachings of the Lord.
.. doctors, until recently, were lauded for their knowledge and, almost venerated, for what they knew.. while the fact is, since about 600 years ago, they've been playing at Doctor and garnering information that way and using [Da Da, Latin] to give label to his action.
.. Oh. I could go on & on.
There are truth all around us, we rarely learn of, till someone offers a translation: that man's the Saint.
Desperate people that want to be accepted as extraordinary will cling to and regurgatate Fallacies of Logic to keep the wool over their eyes.
People that lack general knowledge, have no applicable talent, or are dim personality wise are most likely to take beliefs out of context and become pios, usually because they don't spend time studying the basic docterine of the belief. To many people want shirt cuts to enlightenment, but they are too lazy to even do the leg work, so they fabricate experiences to present themselves as " worthy".
What is most often declared Truth, flatters the believer.
'bout goes where I was goin Dabbler.
I so often find/hear people saying things like, "way I see it/the truth" ... and they're talkin their version of The Truth, whatever that might be..
and, so often, there take is just that, their take on an absolute, rendering it moot almost, through their innate prejudices.
as I said, I could ramble on.
just irks me, when people are so precious, with what they know.
"Mine, mine. All mine.."
Orthodox is so boring, it has to tickle them.
Like Upir says so well, repackage it, and assure people all they need to do is read a brochure.
you're right... there are people who hide the truth from people... it can be selfish... but it can also be protection others or themselves... sometimes people are not ready for truth... This world is so used to "following the norm" that if something drastically changed... many people wouldn't know how to handle said truth. I feel that sometimes people hide it for this reason... or for personal protection as they might be mocked or looked down upon for believing something that is seen as ludicrous.
Some are not as strong willed as others.
Well let the road starts with minute minute workout towards enlightenment. If any minute query or knowledge desired to fill the gap in between road, if talked and guided, its better than fall in the gap. Here if guiding person hold knowledge and un-deliver it. There is the barrier to the enlightenment. If guided properly, the road starts smoothly with the leap on the road and the indicator. But if person kept in the dark without knowledge, he can not go on the road any time in his life. Thus every information and guidance as well as instruction is necessary to start the process.
i must agree with venum..knowledge should be shared
one cannot reach their true potential or enlightenment without the shared knowledge of others ..personallly ..love to learn and expand my mind and knowledge..it is an uplifting feeling to learn more in any capacity
ty ever soo much jewlz
**Looks up**
On the road to one's own enlightenment, we take small steps, often with the help of others. If that help is withheld, progress can still be made. But, it'll be slower and, perhaps more arduous.
indeed angelus that is soo true for the more knowledge shared the more ones eyes are opened
.. ergo, the retention of knowledge, by some, keeps others in ignorance... [[to the benefit of whom?]]
they may think it benefits themselves but in essence it doesn't ..for they are closing another path in which they might learn more...for we learn something..or can if receptive from anyone....everyone we meet
Hmmm, I tend to feel that those who feel the need to husband knowledge like that have a motivation.. for doing so.. and, more often that not.. an arrogance associated with the male of the species.
the feeling of superiority perhap?...false though it maybe...
... Ooh, am glad I didn't phrase it like that. But, yes.
Perhaps!?!
lol i tend to say what i feel and mean..as little filter as possible....there are several reasons they would do this superiority is just one of many....but one would think and tend to believe it a false sense of security..because they only keep themselves from enlightenment from learning more....a stunted existence,,,makes ya feel for the ignorance
.. oh no it doesn't. The difference 'tween them [[as I've desvribed]] and an assertive individual, is that the latter will pass on what they know.. for what do they have to fear, from doing so??
As I have seen so often here on VR in general, it is always far easier to have an undisclosed belief system or theory that is, by that undisclosed nature, protected from outside questions or challenges than it is to reveal such and be forced to deal with others' evidences to the contrary.
Again... this is where religion and all such belief systems fail and science prevails.
Unlike religious pseudo-"knowledge," all of which shun questions and condemn, insult and persecute the questioners, Science WELCOMES with open arms all such! And why? Because only by truly testing a theory can one hope to arrive at a truer understanding of the theorteical principles in question and, thus, actually acquire... knowledge!
Thus, again, if someone won't disclose all the details of their claimed "knowledge," then it's probably not really knowledge, at all. It is simply yet another belief system masquerading as knowledge thru the use of ever-increasingly complicated and "secret"/"sacred" rites, rituals and other such mumbo-jumbo so as to decieve and distract its constituents from actually seeking REAL knowledge.
- Upir'
"The knowledge that everyone seeks is always being taught and never being withheld.
It's taught by example and given freely.
The exact same way it was received. "
~ billy
In my opinion, you have to give knowledge to get knowledge.
How would we ever prosper if everyone just kept what they knew to themselves, never offering any input or testing any theory?
~Sil
(I wanted a cool signature, too)
;)
Ahh, now we're getting to the nub of something here.
belief, over reasoning: and before knowledge.
to deny knowledge, or truth, from another, you deny reason. I believe.
Well knowledge is precious and realm, without sharing it the retainer can not be guide angel and person who desire, can not execute that and will look for another person. Coz knowledge always seek action and it can not be hidden to right person.
Knowledge is acquired through the reading what others people mind wrote, or by following others people step. So, knowledge can be false and unsecured, so, to get knowledge, do not be a copy cat and try to obtained it from nature. WOW.
I think some folks try to mix truth and fact... they are two very different things.
Fact is something you can point at and say that is what it is, where as truth is more about what we believe something to be without the ability to prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt.
The knowledge someone holds in a subject is a mixture of fact and truth... what they know and what they believe. Often what they care to share or teach to others is really about what the student is able to take away from the lesson as opposed to what the teacher is trying to with holding from them. There is no point telling someone something they can not grasp or even perhaps emotionally handle as an individual.
As for science vs Religion...
80% of the worlds population believes in a higher power in some form. There is no proof of any given God and for those who are...
Um ...
"TRUE" believers they are OK with that.
They need no proof of an all knowing and all seeing being, but show them a big foot track and they will say "not possible... the idea of an ape like man running around can't be true, I demand to see proof." lol
Science on the other had is often the saving grace but it has been known to dabble in personal truth and beliefs as well. Scientist held giant bones in their hands no less than 100 years ago and still dismissed the Idea that there could have been dinosaurs walking around once. Men of science would stare at reconstructed skeletons staring back at them and say "Nope untrue."
Took us thirty fives years of debating and people saying this is the truth about what these things were before it became fact... Taught in our schools to our children.
You see ladies and gentlemen the world is and always will be seen threw our eyes - human eyes, and as humans we never see things exactly the same way and we all make mistakes. There fore what is true and what is fact will always be open for debate.
So if some one says they know the truth you don't run for the hills... no you sit down, you listen, and you weight what is acceptable verses what is not. You debate the ideas, learn something you may not have known or understood and you grow from the experience.
ideology, and dogma do not knowledge make.
Saying something over and over does not make it truth,
chanting "anything is possible" goes not make it so.
Think as hard as you can about moving an object without touching it, and it will not move! There is no power in thought alone, practical application of thought, and knowledge is wisdom.
Ideologies are constantly reworded, and dogma is subject to liberal, or orthodox interpretation.
Sorry Dab but I beg to differ... some of histories wisest and most learned men where first and foremost philosophers.
Philosophy is ideology!!
It is about what you see and what you know... and then applying what you believe to that knowledge base.
I actually cringed after I posted that..
Your reasoning is noted.
We constantly hear stories about Oddities we can not explain. Twins who feel things about the other even though they are thousands of miles apart. The story of a 12 year old boy who is in a car accident and finds his father pinned under the truck... The boy lifts and moves the truck off of his father and saves his life. Even with a massive does of adrenaline doctors admit the human body could not have produced enough of it within his body to have lifted the 2 ton truck... yet this normal boy did something abnormal.
History is littered with snake oil sales men who said the world was going to end tomorrow. But there are just as many sceptics who are now seen as nothing more than narrow and closed minded. Both sides have had there fair share of losing battles in the game of Truth.
There are forces within our universe we simply can not understand.
All we can do is apply reasoning to it until we are content with the answers we retain. At the end of the day it really does boil down to what we believe as people.
fair comment, but you have to have accurate, honest information, with which to garner/foster understanding.
But to say resign everything we demonstrated to us, or that appears to be "forces unknown" is to be closed minded to revelations.
if we threw up or hands, every time we wanted something to be unknown, we would still be praying over people to recover from common aliments, watching them die, saying.. "We will never know the forces that kill them."
When Houdini, and other magicians revealed the tricks of spiritualist people "True Believers" refused to accept clear evidence.
So when does an "open mind" become a receptacle for rubbish?
When does the mind become to cluttered with brochure thoughts, and mystic hand bills?
Dab you are an educated and studied man thus you know full well that Truth is nothing more than a consensus of opinion.
All I say is that when someone claims to say they know truth that the time and attempt to hear that which is being said be given it's due diligence.
We often throw out many things in our lives that could have meaning as a result inpatients, lack of time or just plain old laziness.
We are as capable as we are gullible and it is incumbent upon us to weight the information we receive and disregard that which is irrelevant to us every minute of everyday regardless of whether it is what we see and hear while waiting at a traffic light or something more ground braking and thought provoking.
And That Is The Truth. lol
There is Logic, and there is illogical, and anything fabricated will fail under scrutiny.
Even if one is a Believer they would have to agree that there are somethings that people claim that are irrational, as well as illogical.
Severus - ...you know full well that Truth is nothing more than a consensus of opinion.
By such logic, then, 2 X 2= (whatever the reigning "consensus of opinion" happens to be at the time)?
How does this at all make sense?
By such logiic, when the "consensus of opinion" was that women should be burned as witches, that the Jews should be exterminated, that minorities were inferior and should be treated as such... all this was Truth, simply because enough people believed it to be so?
I'm having a very difficult time following any pathway of thought where your statement holds cogency.
- Upir'
You actually validate my point Upir... What is truth today can just as easily become fact or false tomorrow.
Just like your examples we can also add the world is flat - and the braking of the sound barrier will rip a hole in the ozone layer. Both were once fact about the very nature of what many peoples believed to be the truth of their reality. All based on and supported by the facts and research of the time.
Experiment Time:
Take a look at you hand and tell me what you see.
You see your hand. It is just a sold piece of flesh and bone. Most people who undoubtedly agree with that.
But is that what your hand really is??
No because the skin is actually a mass of cells which are not solid... the cells are made up of molecules which are not solid, and the molecules are made up of atoms.
Not a soild!!
So is your hand a solid mass or not??
The same could be said of anything from a rock to a blade of grass.
How ever you chose to see your hand is exactly how you choose to see everything else. Doesn't make what you see or how you see it any more or less truthful. It is in your opinion what you think it is. The more people that share the same perspective the more factual it becomes.
What is the truth??
What is fact and what is fake will always weave between certain acceptable and unacceptable levels of debate. Some ideologies will make sense to some and none to others.
The world is how we choose to interpret it. As I said at the end of the day It is what you believe it to be.
Actually, Severus, the examples you give (world being flat and breaking the sound barrier) are proofs that, in fact, truth is NOT determined by popular consensus, which was my point... in refutation of yours. The popular consensus in both cases at the time was that the world was flat and that the sound barrier could not be broken. And both popular opinions were, of course, dead wrong.
The same is true of countless examples throughout history where breakthroughs and key discoveries that ran entirely contrary to popular consensus resulted from personal and collective endeavor were initial discoveries were made that -- thanks to adherence to the principles of Logic and the Scientific Method -- caused and at times forced scientists and/or researchers to realize that what was "popular consensus" was ... wrong! And from there, further investigation and experimentation ulimtaely resulted in changing our understandings of what the Truth actually was.
This is how Truth is able to be approached and better understood. Does that mean that a single new understanding is the "be all and end all" of Truth? Of course not! That's not what I'm saying. Just as Hawking improved upon Einstein who improved upon Newton... so it is that the understanding of Truth is a never-ending quest. Yet, it is one that is NEVER, EVER to be successfully continued through the reliance upon... "popular consensus."
And that, dear Severus, was my point.
- Upir'
All this shows, to me, is there is a difference between truth and belief.
I look outside, and step on to the porch. It's sunny, but there is a definite chill in the air. Goosebumps crawling up my arms, I go back inside for a sweater.
This is my reality at this moment. However, if you were to step outside, would you experience the same thing?
Odds are, probably not. Maybe it's raining, or snowing, or summer where you are.
Point is, I believe it's a clear, cold, winter day. At the moment, that is a fact for where I am physically, and others in this area at this moment would likely agree. But that's not necessarily true for everyone - perhaps there are those that should be reaching for raincoats instead of sweaters.
Yet, there are things that have been proven fact the world over. The fact that we are made up of cells and not as solid of beings as appearance would suggest. The fact that the earth has now been proven to be, beyond a shadow of a doubt, round. No matter where a person is, these things are not any less true. It is just a matter of gaining knowledge from what other people have taken the time to discover - and it's this ability to share knowledge gained that allows us to advance.
Think how it would be if Albert Einstein or Benjamin Franklin burned all their journals and kept all their discoveries to themselves?
Would we have electricity today? What else would be different if our forefathers did not share their knowledge with the world?
BluSpirit - I agree with you... with one important caveat.
The examples you give are those in which personal preferences and tolerances come into play, which are examples indeed of subjective perception... and not that of anything that could be called "Truth."
Hear me out on this in the following example, which well encapsulates all other such examples, including your own:
Just because I might consider something to taste too salty while another might consider that same food item to be too bland, yet the TRUTH of exactly how much actual Sodium Chloride (NaCl) is in the food has not changed! And that is the inalterable TRUTH of the matter, regardless of perception and superior to all such.
Truth... real Truth... is inalterable regardless of one's perceptions and unchanged by any such.
Thus... returning to the topic at hand... knowledge based on new and increased understandings of Truth are seldom kept from professional and, usually also, public awareness given that those making such discoveries generally view all such new discoveries as important for dissemination so that others likewise seeking Truth can put such new theories to the test to determine whether such understandings are real or... erroneous perceptions (there's that word again) and, thus, false.
The now-debunked "discovery" of "Cold Fusion" is a prime example of this key process in action.
Thus, all things being equal, only those who seek to hide the errors in their logic or processes of claimed discovery or who otherwise seek to deceive others would withhold knowledge.
And, therefore again, such "knowledge retained" is not, in fact, knowledge at all and of no real value, anyway.
- Upir'
Everything possible?
Plausible, probable?
Not really.
Not seeing how that relates to the thread.
People seek so desperately to be astonished, they want every notion to be possible, could this be evidence that some are want to make pretend, without appearing to be immature?
The imagination is boundless, not everything that can be imagined ias possible.
No matter how many times one chants the mantra.
Hope Springs eternal!
always been rattling on, about those who talk of THE truth and the truth they know.. [[jaundiced by their personal prejudices??]] and Upir, I so liked all you said there...
**Bows**
It just gets rather obvious when so many make claims of witnessing things that defy logic, and physics.
If people are not claiming to have personally seen something defy logic, or physics then they claim conviction based on a third party account.
Most even work the investigation backwards, starting with the assumption that it just had to be something that defies logic, or physics, then avoiding any other rational explanation, or account for the apparent phenomena.
So skewed. What practical purpose is met by such notional quest?
When all along the known world continues to present us with marvels.
It is as if those who want people to believe they are special enlightened over others, are staring right into the the sun. Personally I'll turn around, and gaze upon what the sun actually illuminates.
I don't need to be tickled with "Flattering Notions".
Not all that can be imagined is not possible? Without imagination, thoughts would not ascend to percieve a difficult challenge any other way than what is presented as consensual "truth." What Jewlz left out of that biblical reference that is key and relevant to personal truth is that "All things are possible to he/she that believes." Yet this is a truth that is not to be taken at surface interpretation.
Albert Einstein flunked out of math in high school, yet he sought and believed that the universe was not what the consensus of orthodox science. He set out to establish the breaking groundwork that would later expand into the various branches of physics we have today.
What of accounts by those who have either experienced something that defies logic and physics? Certainly, relying on 3rd party references to any event would have to be questioned for relevance and confirmation of facts surrounding any one event...psychic, paranormal, phenomenal or not.
Speaking of physics, which branch related to logic can we assume reference to in making a point to discount the personal truths held by individuals that do not meet the consensus of orthodoxy? As the boundaries of physics are difficult to define, physics relates to every branch of known sciences, philosophy, and mathematics.
It takes imagination and belief in searching out every avenue of a theory that reaches beyond the known universe...I believe it's called Theoretical Physics which draws inspiration from philosophies such as "All things are possible to he/she that believes."
Fundalmentalist science and Newtonian laws are things we can relate to in a physical sense, using all that we have in touch, taste, hearing, smelling, and above all..."seeing is believing"...what can we even begin to ascertain as "real" or "tangible truth" when it is a proven fact that the scope of human vision is horribly narrow-sighted in the broad spectrum of visible light?
As it is, Einstein would be considered a phenomenologist today based solely on his endeavors to create a perfect theory of relativity, making a connection between universal physics and fundamental scientific laws. I also ask, what more can we see that the light of the sun does not illuminate to our naked and woefully limited eyesight?
I read somewhere today...in a book... a most insightful statement that I believe applies to this thread, so here I'll share it, as knowledge should never be retained when it is plausible to create an atmosphere for others to "think outside of the box."
"The main lesson was realizing that the first person who ever misrepresents the truth to us is our self. It was all too evident that our minds can take what is real and filter it through our past experiences to misrepresent what is genuine. This was a fascinating discovery and is probably usual for most people. It highlights the realization that regardless of what we think is true, it is only a perspective based on individual experience."
I agree with Angelus.
I will use college as an example.
Somewhere back in the day people learned a skill and got good at it and began teaching others. Soon they became teachers and tallied up a degree system based on experience and how long one pursued what they were learning.
College came about. There are teachers that have knowledge of specific things, and they teach others so as to pass down the knowledge to others in hopes that it will be passed down and so on and so forth so the skill does not become obsolete.
Then there are those that know things but tend to keep it to themselves and do not share.
I believe they are selfish as well. They will die never having passed on their knowledge to anyone else, and everything they ever knew in that particular skill will be lost forever.
I forgot about the part where they wish to retain it so they can have power over others.
I think you are right here because nowadays we do get know-it-all jackasses that will tell you everything but will never explain how they came to the conclusion they are drawing. That pisses me off to no end.
And they hold it over your head because you have no clue what the hell they just did and they quietly laugh to themselves, snickering at your confusion.
Silverhawk - While certainly imagination and even intuition and perhaps that called inspiration can help us envision concepts that serve to ultimately lead to incredible discoveries. Yet, this hardly means that anything imagined must be true or must be possible.
And even in those cases where imagination helps to inspire such future discoveries, still logic and experimentation and research must still go into finding the ways in which the imagined concept can ultimately be made reality.
After all, it was Thomas Edison, the man with literally 100s of patents to his name, who so eruditely stated that "Genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent perspiration"
- Upir'
.. and Edisons' genius was ably assisted by a small team. Even he recognised that brilliance [[pun intended]] needs assistance..
[[I hate spelling things wrong.]]
what I find to be curious is that people tent to quote individuals without attempting to deliver the real message but only there own. so that there point of view is heard the loudest. Odd that in a thread about truth being with held that this would occur... don't you think??
The quote was a question regarding his success in life.
Here let me give you the full quote:
"Of inspiration one percent, of perspiration, ninety nine."
"The object of any great work is production or accomplishment and to either of these ends there must be forethought, system, planning, intelligence, and honest purpose, as well as perspiration."
"One must be courageous, I have seen many depressions in business. Always America has emerged from these stronger and more prosperous. Be brave as your fathers before you. Have faith! Go forward! "
See that- Honesty and Faith mixed with hard work and determination.
For the record he was all so quoted as saying:
If we did all the things we are capable of doing, we would literally astound ourselves.
— Thomas Edison
I would also like to point out that a true sceptic is someone that only believes in and trusts in what they already know, anyone that comes alone who knows more or less is wrong and always will be. This is not because of the persons thought or calculations are flawed but simply because of the sceptic's own inability to believe that more is possible.
No one ever said that gullible was good...
But being a sceptic is not something to be proud of.
Perhaps they "keep" the proposed knowledge to themselves so that others do not learn just how ignorant they are. How does the saying go... "Tis better to be thought a fool than open one's mouth and remove all doubt..." The pretense of possessing something that someone else wants creates an inequality that raises the possessor and lowers the wanter... I admit to ignorance on a great many things. There is much knowledge out there but true lessons are learned from mistakes.
Could I learn from your mistakes? Absolutely~ But, only if you are willing to share your knowledge with me... so hence I must agree with Angelus...who has shared his knowledge with me...
I find it telling when a person declares themselves to be High Titled in Arcane arts, yet they clearly lack even basic Comprehension, and Practical observation skills.
I'll go with the Lady there, as ever, Touchjewelz is being inciteful.. tho, I'll concede to a modicum of arrogance at times, I'll readily admit I have a lot still to learn.. I do wonder how many are prepared to admit the same.
Upir, I was speaking of imagination in correlation of bringing ideas forth into reality...how else does universal sciences work?.....again, I'll touch lightly on this one as it goes into depths beyond skin deep. :)
It simply takes the process of "what if" and following the questions that arise as deductive reasoning is followed in searching out the parameters of any idea that comes from either intuition or imagination. It is a process we all go through, why else would we discuss the elements of knowledge here in this thread? :)
knowledge retained..
I missed something, but science develops surely, by not retaining what they know ~ and, passing it onto those who will develop the idea further?
Darwin, for example.
thank you silverhawk i agree with what you said..my respects you got my meaning of the statement...for others i never said anything Must be possible...just simply that it is ..it was in response to other comments that were made it just happens to be my opinion thats all ..needs to be my opinion at this point in time not a religious reference just a positive feeling ...motivation if you will,,but how would people know this if the knowledge wasnt shared...and because people choose to share these things more and more people gain not only this knowledge but are motivated to learn even more about whatever it is they contemplate and possibly share that with others or not because ..anything is possible..positively or negatively
thank you jewlz
**Grins**
methinks the Lady has some genuine insight: and, she chooses to share [[case in point?]]
Here is an article I found sometime back, in a periodical.
What is Truth?
The quest for it can be more than a little confusing. Respected web sites, and books can affirm anything you need or want to believe. There is only one demand of self delusion: you must be selective in the amounts of reading, and thinking that you intend to do.
Some notions are easier to believe then others. |Arguments that genuinely respect reason and evidence require simple attention to be convincing. Arguments more careless in upholding reason and evidence require more than this. They must make up in repetition what they lack in power.
Philosophies of the most doubtful kinds require the most avid reading. The are less arresting, and individuals find them sensible only be devoting more minutes to reading their merits than to pondering their loopholes.
From "The Eclectic Razor"
(1979)-S.O.
Jewlz...you're welcome..:) Nicely met....and Severus, thank you too...and dear Angelus, you've started a most excellent conversation here..Here's a bit for sharing knowledge then...^^
Thanks Dabbler...it's a good piece...here's my sample of literature on Truth....that elusive aspect of knowledge conducted as universal philosophy...from a bit older source than the 70's...;)
"From the fathomless and unknown beginning the principles of mathematics existed as a divine, unnamed reality. The man accredited with its discovery simply extracted from the infinite the principles of universal order and christened them the science of mathematics. This new science thereupon became a hypothetical monad, and diversity took place within it, arithmetic, algebra, geometry, trigonometry, and calculus becoming the vehicles of its expression in the sphere of mental activity.
These are the lesser monads suspended from the body of the parent monad. As gold exists in the dark earth long before the miner's pick bares it to the light of day, so all the truths revealed to man in the past and to be discovered by him in the future are eternal, and as divine principles were the media in the beginning by which the Creator flowed into Being from the eternal state of Non-Being. In its exact sense, Truth is therefore the way of God in "all" things and truths the ways of God in "particular" things.
The forms of learning which mortals term science, philosophy, and theology are simply aspects of divine procedure on the physical, mental, and emotional planes respectively. As Number becomes numbers, so Truth becomes truths and the subordinate monads suspended from Truth become that which is real upon each of the countless levels of existence.
Wherever one of these facts is established, it becomes the monad or radiant center from which flows forth a number of secondary agencies. The moment this lesser establishment and flow take place, mathematics is again manifested. From the monad of theology, for example, are suspended the religions, of which there are not less than seven major bodies. the flow of theology into any one of its religions establishes a new vortex, therby giving expression to another suspended element of mathematics. Each of these major divisions of religion becomes, in turn, the monad of a still greater order of diversity, a notable example being the Christian faith whose branches number several hundred. Each motion of Truth out from itself toward the infinite diversity which is the inevitable circumference of Unity is thus measured, determined, and directionalized by Number moving through its own vehicles--numbers and their infinite combinations."
So then, what is truth if not that which we hold dear to our own hearts that makes each of us "whole." I further submit ..another piece by the same author...who also touches more on Pythagorean terms between these two articles...however, I still like the summations of both.
"This quality of wholeness, which is the common property of these diversified and otherwise irreconcilable bodies, becomes as it were, their common denominator. Though wholeness is present in all natures it is not an attribute of natures. This wholeness is an archetypal quality--an attribute of Deity. Regardless of the nature of its expression, every activity, quality, or condition is essentially a wholeness. This wholeness is made manfiest by a division within itself whereby its nature becomes a mass of innumerable fragments, each of the fractions partaking of the quality resident in the original wholeness, and manifesting it through the wholeness of its own fractional part.
For example, Man is a wholeness possessing and manifesting certain rational qualities and characteristics. This archetypal wholeness, flowing into diversity, breaks up to form men. Each individual, by virtue of his own inherent wholeness, shares in the viritues of his participation in the one causal nature moves in the rhythm of the archetype, which archetype manifests through such laws as polarity, generation, rationality, morality, and such other ideals and practices as are the common property of all men."
So then, what is our common denominator..what makes us all whole....in our singular truths? How is it that any one individual can succumb to illusions that the Truth they hold as infinite is the only Truth to be known? There are fanciful fads and popular beliefs that come and go with the fading and passage of time, but of Truth...that most Divine Knowledge passed down from generation to generation.....Truth....is Eternal.
*quoted material from Manly P. Hall and Lectures on Ancient Philosophy-Mathematics, the Master Science
Siverhawk and dabbler... bravo.
This is what I was attempting to Show in this thread. Now everyone can see the value in sitting down and listening to all points of view, to never dismiss something until you have heard it and weighted it properly. that to keep knowledge to yourself is just as damming as to share it and have no one listen to it.
When we face what we know and don't know... when we listen as well as we debate, that is when the truth starts to becomes self evident.
When we base our lives on what we believe and what we know we make progress, it is only when we pit against each other what we think we know and we we believe that truth and knowledge become uncommon ground.
An idea is not to be feared, but shared.
I submit that we are a young race... we know very little about ourselves, our planet, our universe. This is evident in the number of theories we have.
A strong example I would like to share would be that eminent mathematical physicist Sir Roger Penrose calculated the chances of a life-supporting universe happening by random chance to be 1 in 1010^123.
Let me try to put that number into perspective:
1010^3 is a 1 followed by a thousand zeros, 1010^6 is a 1 followed by a million zeros and 1010^9 is a 1 followed by billion zeros. These numbers are practically impossible to imagine, but 1010^123 is so big that it is almost totally inconceivable to the human mind.
So with odds of only 1 in 1010^123 it can be said with absolute certainty that a life-supporting universe could never happen by chance. So in this model it could be argued that in some way science has proven that there is a god of some kind. those that believe this to be the case will take it on faith and those that don't with triple check the numbers. lol
This is how intelligent people can reach the conclusion that if there is a god then "Up can be down" and anything is possible.
Is this point of view wrong... Right??
As I have stated - At the end of the day your reality is what you believe it to be... your opinion and point of view is what shapes who you are and how you see the world.
Severus.. 'An idea is not to be feared, but shared.'
Sheesh, after reading that one-line, I'm tempted to kill this: yet, there's been so many excellent comments made thus far, I'm not.
To all who have contributed, thus far, thank you.
~ Angelus
Severus makes a good point and reference to the mathematician's view of the universe...as Manly P. Hall includes his assessment of Pythagorean philosophy:
"The Pythagoreans termed the number 1 as the apex of the pyramid of numbers, since it is the first manifestation of Number. It is Unity established in place, for in its perfect and abstract sense Unity is unlimited by place or condition. Thus, Number that is all-pervading becomes the 1--the first numeral to stand alone. Being the least of diversity, the numeral 1 is therefore the spirit of the numbers; for like spirit it is universal life limited to the sphere of generation, or the apex of the pyramid of phenomena. About the central axis of the 1, or Tree of Being, moves the whole order of the numbers, which are suspended from the 1 even as the 1 itself is suspended from the principle of Unity, of which it is the primary mathematical manifestation."
I believe what Severus was saying in sharing ideas, is regarding the excellence of debate between intelligent people who are willing to put forth information and knowledge based on existing theory and philosophy, instead of being a part of the milling crowd that puts forth their "knowledgable truths" as the "only" truth or knowledge to be gained.
If each of of holds within ourselves a Tree of Being, then being 1 voice suspended from the principle of Unity, we are thereby made whole in our thoughts, our ideas, our imaginations and all else that fuels and manifests our individual realities interconnecting us all, diversely created...yet we all have within us the propensity of obtaining that Divine Unity. Just a random thought..:)
Manly P. Hall continues:
"To the trained thinker mathematics is obviously limited to the realm of form, or to those departments of manifestation where numbers as diversified elements exist suspended from common Unity, which is their monad and which was termed by the Pythagoreans Number. As all individual minds are suspended from the principle of Mind, so all numbers are suspended from the principle of Number. Number is consequently divine and founded in th archtypal sphere, from whence its radiations (or principles) descend into the sensible world, there to manifest as the exactitudes of mathematical procedure. By some, Number was considered synonomous with God in that the first motion of Deity establishes Number, which becomes the mode whereby the magnitude and duration of that motion is rendered conceivable. Hence motion does not exist unless the cause is aware of its own extension or induces awareness in the substances through which the extension is taking place. Motion and Number, therefore, are of kindred nature and form the monad from which is suspended all diversified activity--which is number in motion, or the numbers."
Billy the Just said it best within this thread...I further submit my own adjunct...Knowledge retained is Knowledge lost...for this we know is true and relevant from the evidence given over concerning the Peri Reis Map in rediscovering the concept and very real fact that the world is actually "round" and leading to the establishment of "both" longitude and lattitude.
Greater Mysteries and Sacred Philosophies are presented still, howbeit they are done so in allegory and parables so as to filter down to those who "have ears, shall hear" and those who "have eyes shall see." Knowledge is present and those who would guardedly say they own it are most likely seriously inept at interpretting their own Truth and thus decieving themselves as well as others.
**hangs head**
..some of that went over my head.. [[maths]]
But, information shared.. and NOT retained, for use and misuse.. is my aim.. thank you..
To Angelus and your original question. I believe that some times people retain knowledge unknowingly not realising that they have it. Others that do know they have may retain it because of personal reasons or reasons that might harm others as the old saying goes, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Others may even abuse the little that we have. In my personal opinion the more I know the more I realise I do not know.
naamah " the more I know the more I realise I do not know." one finds this statement to be soo true for i believe we never stop learning ..if we are open to the knowledge shared with us and the knowledge we actively seek ~Bravo~ silverhawk and severus for known or unknown to someone mathmatics and patterns can be found in almost anything in everyday life and the not so everyday things i personaly thank you both for that knowledge shared it was most interesting to me and i have learned something new..once again knowledge shared furthers someone on their journey
ty jewlz
the more I know the more I realise I do not know.
a Buddhist precept I follow.
furthermore, I was lucky enough, on my own path, to encounter people who wanted to act as my mentor and, by illuminating my 'self' to their own awareness, I learnt much.
we encounter, I believe, many in Life, who can act as stepping stones to awareness; but, it is those who harbour what they know [[for whatever reason]] who are dangerous..
Severus what I find to be curious is that people tent to quote individuals without attempting to deliver the real message but only there own.
The "complete" quote you gave only further validated and supported the point of my post here: that imagination (inspiration), while most certainly helpful in guiding discovery, does not mean that whatever is imagined must be real and true. It takes a lot of work, experimentation and perspiration to sift out the gems of wisdom that might be found in each moment of imagination (inspiration) and have them become ultimately developed into a reality.
Thus... just because something is imagined does not mean it must be true or possible.
Just because Gene Roddenberry imagined the "Starship Enterprise" does not mean that Kirk, Spock and McCoy are actually out there warping around the galaxy.
Just because a thing can be imagined does not make it a reality. And that was my point.
- Upir'
And you again miss the point. lol
Gene Roddenberry's Idea inspired much of what we know as reality. We do have supercomputers that can run things without our input... we do have hand held flip phone communications and push to talk technologies. We do have an abundance of medical advancement that mirror Star trek. Some of which is easily attributed to the show by those that created the technologies... they admit they were inspired by the show to creature them. That one idea caused a consensus of those who believe that was what the future and present should be like to move it from an idea to a reality. It was will and desire that make them possible.
'what's real is about perception'
Quote: Peter Bishop.
aye.. science fiction is being emulated. and, some geeks doing the inventing use star trek terminology.. but these were just advancements of technology.. much like the flying machine's envisaged in 'Metropolis', the film made by Frotz Lang.
But to the original statement... if those imagined things, whether fantasy or ideas, had not been shared would that technology still exist?
Dabbs, as per your response, you should accept the fact i may be in love with you. But also, i have enough on my plate with other things relevant to my life,
and these are the things that are priorities
but if you're ever in my town, i'll definitely listen in
Severus, you have missed my point, now stated several times: while imagination can serve as jump-off points to inspirations that might lead to realities down the road, yet still... just be cause something is able to be imagined doesn't make it a reality or a truth.
OK My Bad...
As a PSI I tend to take some things for granted and forget that not everyone sees things as I do.
Explanation:
As I stated earlier - You are energy, I know that most people don't tent to think of themselves this way but you are and so is everything else around you.
Everyone knows that for every physical action there is a equally positive or negative reaction.
"This is true for all forces and types of energy - It Is Not Just Metaphorically True It Is Actually True."
Just as sound vibrations travel though any give space from one object to another their energy patterns carry with it a frequency that resonates.
Most people are aware of this concept and Music is a great example of how that energy can resonate at a level that effects and changes our own energy causing one to be happy or sad, feel loved or become pissed off simply by the manner that this energy resonates within us.
Art is a physical manifestation of a visual vibration that can be pleasing or disturbing. Again most people don't tent to thing of art or architecture as a vibration but it is.
Every action you make also has a similar reaction... we can send out vibrations too but the energy is in the form of thoughts and emotions. What you think and feel can and does send out vibrations that resonate with the world you inhabit.
Animals can sense sickness and death we call this a sixth sense but it is just understanding of energy vibrations.
Why do people always insist that lower life forms can sense and feel energies unseen but we some how can't.
The old adage that "a man who is convinced he is going to die tomorrow with always find a way to make it happen."
What he thinks causes a change in his perception which causes a change in his reality.
If a thought or an emotional can be felt by others - It can activity effect others to sense and feel what we feel, than what can a strongly held belief do??
You have the ability to effect everything around you just because you don't personally see it occur or consciously cause it 90% of the time does not me that you're not doing it.
Ever Psionic you talk to will tell you this.
Both of you are right you know...;)
Severus, you speak of intent of the heart as manifested from an idea while Upir is simply stating that imagination without action or intent is simply imagination.
All things considered in this arguement, of one thing we can hold true and that is that imagination and creative thinking is "part of" the process of invention and advancement of technology. Much of our modern day technologies hold thier inspiration to the fantasy-fiction writers of yesterday...our current layout and operation of military submarines is nearly a carbon-copy of Jules Verne's characteristic description of Captain Nemo's "Nautilus" from 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea.
Sometimes, however, imagination has been the catalyst to hold technology back. Could you imagine, if you will, what changes in history would be wrought had the Spaniards that invaded South America had brought with them visions of establishing contact and learning of new cultures instead of dreaming and conjecturing of El Diablo? A whole civilization was demolished by disease and a people enslaved for the conquest of gold and untold riches. Whole troves of advanced mathematical calendars, astrological studies and histories of an entire people were melted down for their intrinsic monetary value. Their ancient knowledge, with no recorded replication except mention of these items by a priest, was lost over the imagined prosperity of a greedy nation.
A prime example of knowledge retained, knowledge lost, knowledge "rediscovered" and then lost again and finally realized?
Longitude wasn't properly calculated until 1714 while the subsequent compilation of the Piri Reis Map in 1513 which included eight Ptolemic maps constructed during the era of Alexander the Great, an Arabic map of India, Portuguese maps from Sindh and Pakistan and maps of the Western world by Columbus. This map was "lost" until rediscovered October 9, 1929. What was so outstanding?
It was the only known copy of a world map of Christopher Columbus but it also the only 16th century map that showed South America in its proper "longitudinal" position in relation to Africa. None of the alluded source maps have been "found," however the accuracy of the maps' coastlines of Antartica as well as other countrys is accurate even by today's sattelite technology.
or one could also speak of the Astral Maps the ancients knew of and got forgotten of..
older people have known many things we're re-learning.
But, we in the west always seem to know better ..
..don't we?
I'm not talking about Phantom cities of gold, I'm talking about real science and Psionics.
20 years ago some Russian molecular biologists (Drs. Gariaev & Poponin) discovered this and it is now know as the Phantom DNA effect.
If you beam laser light through DNA a wave pattern from the photons appears on the screen behind. If you then remove the DNA from the experiment the photons remain and in some cases realign themselves to wave pattern as if the DNA is still there. They then subjected the photons to other influences one of which was voice vibration... they screamed at it and then spoke differently. the range from anger to kindness changed the alignment of the photons while the DNA was present and the effect was consistent after the DNA was removed. Their theory is that the emotion of the researches affected the energy around the DNA as well as the DNA it's self.
The were able to show that energy and matter are able to be manipulated by higher, more complex forms of energy such as a genetic structure. What you think and feel matter and physically effects you and your environment.
Dr. Poponin is a quantum physicist who is recognized world wide as a leading expert in quantum biology, including the nonlinear dynamics of DNA and the interactions of weak electromagnetic fields with biological systems. He is the Senior Research Scientist at the Institute of Biochemical Physics of the Russian Academy of Sciences and is currently working with the Institute of HeartMath in a collaborative research project between IHM and the RAS.
This guy is not some quack and the Science to support what I say is out there has been for 20 years.
But again at the end of the day isn't what you believe to be truth.
I wasn't talking about phantom cities of gold either [[feels insulted]] I was talking of that which was known, that modern man is only catching up on..
Sheesh.
Hmm...perhaps I did not make myself clear Severus? I did not say you were speaking of "cities of gold," as my line of thought was to show a scale of "intent." Energy is equal to matter and vice-versa...speech is such a wave length of energy and if one wishes to look it up, the primary definition of Energy is: "Utterance." Along that line, perhaps you would also be interested in another scientific study:
The Hidden Messages in Water
by Masaru Emoto
In the meantime, please do not adlib loosely summarized conjecture regarding my statements, you take me completely out of context and I find your opening attitude a "tad" derisive.
Please forgive me... I meant no ill intent by my opening statement. I took the legend of El Dorado (aka the mythical city of gold) which you referenced and was going to use it in a play on words.
The Phantom City of gold verses the Phantom DNA effect.
Legend and stories verses modern science...
Fantasy verses known fact.
It seemed to be consistant with the thread topic and what I wanted to share...
But I was thinking one thing and typed another.
And the result was a mix that failed epically.
Sorry about that.
You are most graciously forgiven and I truly appreciate the explanation Severus. I have more than once inadvertantly fell flat on my face with words and expressions sometimes due to having a temporal lobe seizure..and sometimes.. just because I'm just too damned awkward..:P ...picture clutzy with a pinch of grace...:) yup..that's me..^^
But seriously, I do really think you'll find the Messages in Water book/study rather interesting and falls along the same lines of what you expressed here..that ..and the pictures are just down right..beautiful.
.. my comments alluded to all that was known of then and, has been forgotten, it seems.
.. we're not as clever Now, as we think we are.
And, in this instance.. we cannot say that knowledge was witheld. We in the west chose to ignore it, as we couldn't accept that 'ignorant sacages' might know more.
I'm thinking the Nascar lines, Stonehenge, the alligment of the pyramids, the Mayans knowledge of the stars..
Oh my, the list goes on...
Oh Angelus, exactly what I was trying to say also...so much information, so much knowledge lost because of pestilence, disease, greed...the list of that goes on...and what we have left to sift through are the pieces. In consideration of the mathematical and astrological perfection rendered in buildings and plazas on two distinctly opposite sides of the world, in conjunction with so many other unusual finds throughout...it is blindingly apparent to anyone that looks at the "whole" of it all that we are not the first technologically advanced civilization.
The problem with obtaining knowledge and making it work for a people is their lack of understanding how that knowledge works, thereby gracing their lives with the technology they've become so reliant upon. When you go to a McDonalds' to order chicken nuggets that come in 6, 9, or 12 count and ask for "half a dozen," being unknowledgable, the girl behind the counter tells you, "they don't come that way." ? o.k......I'll just take 6 then...?????
Yet, this same unenlightened person probably has every technical gizmo to be had, a hands-free phone stuck in their ear (which really makes you look like you're talking to yourself and that used to be grounds to throw you in the looney bin), Blackberries, iPhones, MP3 players, you name it...they could most likely look up what "half a dozen" means from the app called "I didn't know that."
So what do we have in this day and age within the utopia of the West? A passle full of people who do not know how to carry on a conversation without a phone and what's worse..they may not know how to do much else..but they do know how to press a Button...our luck..it'll be the big, red, "do not touch" button that causes a nuclear meltdown.
*shudder...now that's a horrifying thought...;)
I some what have beg to disagree... the Knowledge is out there.
One can look to the Hermetica and other source reference material that hold degenerated versions of the ancient wisdom and Arcane Sciences. What has been lost is not the knowledge but the lessons learned.
We are at a dangerous impasse in our current times. Once again we are at a point where anyone has the able to have instant gratification for any action without instant repercussions.
I cannot credit this ended, when there was some sort of accord being found ...
I for one am glad this thread was reopened. I have been following it and have thoroughly enjoyed it.
That being said...
Be careful to whom you impart YOUR knowledge to for they may use it against you.
.. erm, Now that sounds like personal experience. Tho, it is a valid point, I'll grant you.
I absolutely agree that it is important to pick people who won't misuse the information you give
Discretion in all things.
Phishers are one reason. I find that those who profess the most, know least.
I am more inclined to note a persons practical aptitude rather then their claims of attributes.
It just gets so wearing when people are desperate to impress upon others that what they claim to know makes them extraordinary, and above others.
I agree Dab....
People who talk about themselves all the time by default offer nothing in the way of information outside of themselves.
That is the nature of self promotion... to really see the difference one must force themselves to study what is being promoted and what you as the listen walk away with.
Discussions are either about what someone wants you to think or what they think about something else. The majority of what you walk away with is exactly what the speaker intended for you to here.
Never really is a way around that fact.
"Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people."
- Eleanor Roosevelt
Which is why I request material sources from those who
expound upon something they would have me subscribe to.
While evidences, or "proof" may not be available.
it can be reasoned that someone wrote text regarding the concept, or idea that the individual bases their claim to knowledge upon.
I find that those who profess the most, know least.
spot on Dabbler.. and, that quote of Eleanor Roosevelt..
aw wow, Thank you, thank you all!
to your statement about it being personal experience... yes it was.. a very painful lesson learned though... perhaps experience is the best teacher after all.
No one here seems to like the idea of listening to an expert on a subject. Most in this forum have deemed them unworthy. But what of those worthy, whose knowledge retains it's value once it has been imparted? Are THEY selfish if they chose not to impart it? Or are they merely being cautious about to whom they impart their secrets to?
you've read the thread well it seems.
and, I guess it's not so much who is worthy, but.. the veracity, or lack thereof, behind the words someone speaks.
heck.. if someone knows something I don't.. I actually shut up.. [[for a change, and listen.. hence my previous posting]] as some here, have so much to teach me, IF I choose to listen...
I see people implying that they get criticized for their knowledge, so they decide not to introduce it to an open venue.
In such cases it is natural to look into what is presented by the individual, what is made public, and how it "jives" with what they indicate they are privy to. Is it not reasonable to expect a person that possesses a great deal of say occult knowledge to have a few prerequisites down.
A basic elementary summation?
I would believe so. But as it is often seen, people make outrageous claims, or draw opinions they claim to be rooted in that same knowledge, that they "can't cast upon mere mortals", in fear of "great scrutiny".
seriously,, if one held such knowledge.. why pray tell prance around singing.. "I have a cat in my bag.."
simple, one doesn't. used to go out with a witch. an swear down, she lived Life as you and I.. but, Sheesh, the stuff she knew.. and taught. She was real, with no artifice... and that sadly, dominates the self-opinion of too many.. 'OH LOOK AT ME", instead of.. here, let me show you this...
Have you ever heard tell of scandalous sods that adorn military medals, and badges without serving, or with very limited service?
That is what I am reminded when I hear some individuals carry on.
Such people really have no idea how transparent it becomes, and it is not uncommon for their tales to conflict.
OK I will put this out there and you can take what you wish from it. Then I am not going to speak of it again.
Arcane knowledge is often about what you know to start with... as I said there is no point in telling someone something they can not grasp in the first place. it often takes individual studying to get there - You need to be trained
I know that sounds like a cop out but listen closer.
The more you understand something the more meaning it has to you. I was talking with a dear friend of mine and I asked them if they had a glyph, they said no not really. So I offered to make them one.
We got onto the topic of what hieroglyphics meant and why the ancients used them as a language.
I told them that most of what you see in a glyph is up to what you know of the object. Ancient wisdom is encoded into hieroglyphs the more you know about the symbol the more information and meaning it carries for you as you read it... Basically the information is hidden until you can understand it.
An example of this would be to say that suppose you where an alien... you have never seen a cross before.
I can describe to the crucifixion and the story of Jesus Christ... a priest could go on all day about the symbolism of it and what it means to Christians.
To you it is just a cross, with out that information it means almost nothing but on the flip side for some one who does know what the symbol means it becomes empowering and holds great meaning. An entire book of knowledge manifests itself within that one object.
The symbol it's self becomes the embodiment of all those meanings and is capable of conveying the principles of them to the person viewing it.
The Bible wrapped up in symbol form, but only if you know the bible story to start with.
That is the power of symbolism is an extremely complex language and that is what you find everywhere in Egypt and through out the ancient world... But only if you know this, if you don't it's just a bunch of wavy lines and some animals.
The ancient wisdom is every where for those that know how to see it... How to read it and trying to explain it to someone who doesn't get it or is sceptical from the start is a losing battle.
I understand your angle Severus
I am more in the area of those who claim to be knowledgable about Arcane, or occult docterines, yet they demonstrate a complete lack of practical comprehension, or basic principles.
To shield themselves they declare, when someone inquires in response to their scripted anacdote, the play the.. "that information is sacred" or the " you wouldn't understand." card.
It is very transparent.
I once had a teacher who sent me to the garden to collect an herb. She did not specify which herb. She simply told me to go into the garden and bring back 'the herb'. It took me four times to get the right herb. The first time I simply grabbed what was in front. The second time, I grabbed something I knew. The third time I grabbed something I had no idea what it was. Finally, I went into the garden and asked the herbs, who was the herb that I sought? I closed my eyes and found the herb I was sent to gather.
It really didn't matter which herb I brought it. It was my method for obtaining the herb that she was trying to teach me. Perhaps I am just a simple woman but sometimes it seems that learning has more to do with multiple senses than just the ears.
Listen to what those around you say or do not say. But use more than your ears. Sometimes the difference between a sugar pill and a miracle cure lies within the patient receiving it not the doctor giving it.
Perhaps in the not telling you something you believe you are ready to learn but making you seek out such knowledge in a different manner is a gift from the one who already possesses such knowledge. If they are not being greedy or selfish by witholding such information, could it perhaps be that they ar trying to impart such knowledge in a way you need to learn it?
I disagree Dabbler. Not everyone learns by reading. Some, like myself, are doers. Let me do it several times with guidance then set me free to make mistakes... Texts are not always necessary.
.. hmmm, different learning style, for diffeent folks.
[[Started studying that one years ago!!!]]
And, incidentally, I'm a doer.. a kinda pragmatic leaner..
..text books were little, to no use to me, whatsoever.
If I may... I believe what NanaKiki and Angelus are trying to say is that you can read about a frog or you can dissect one. Just as some Archaeologists make discoveries after years of research from the library and others have to do there best work from the field. Both learning methods hold merit but the Hands on approach works best for the way they process the discovery of information.
Any established knowledge has accompanying text, ology wise.
When it comes to beliefs, and such one benefits from text, rather then listening to one persons interpretation of a belief, one should have be given the option to read the text themselves.
There are those who fabricate things to appear exceptionally spiritual, or arcane, thankfully there are ways to see through their BS.
Doing is wisdom, I thought we were discussing knowledge.
No Dabbler, doing can be a learning process. A learning process where knowledge is gained and retained. That is why teachers use drills (repetitive doing). It allows for mistakes to be made and lessons gained.
FYI, unlike my roomie, I prefer texts. Let me read and study and think about it.
thassit.. she saidit fella. [[cool lady, ta.]]
one isn't exclusive of the other...