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Both consider animals (no offence intended) and spirtual creature that are both protector or demon, a spirit that can serve good or evil.

Since they can serve on both side of the fence, I was wondering do they do it by choice? Or du to the attachement they have to the human they have hcosen to be with or forced to be with. Is it a choice and if so then what could motivate them, what could make them change their mind or stop being so close to their human.

Could it be possible that once a familiar or dragon is attach it will never leave no mater if the human become bad? Or can a familiar or a dragon help change a heart so the human becomes good, therefore allowing the spirit familiar or dragon to remian with him or her.?

What are you views on the link between humans and dragon or familiar? Is is something unbreakable or something that can be destroy by the human will and actions? Do you view those links as strong or simple vivid imagination of a child?

the bond of any familiar or spirit guide lasts several lifetimes in many cases. As such it is not their duty to decide whether the person becomes good or evil.

My belief is that some in life will choose what they need on the spirit path. Their guides and familiars will follow with guidance no matter the path.

A path is neither good nor evil. It is chosen for the select lessons that may be learned. Spirit guides along all paths regardless how the unenlightened view our decisions.

_What I believe is that, sort of like Genesis said, the spirit guide will stay with their masters for many lifetimes. I also believe that, an animal, or a pet chooses to be with someone. I've seen it. Have you ever walked into a pet store, wanting a kitten? So you go over to where the kittens are, and you put your hand inside, very carefully, to choose one. Maybe you know what you're looking for, but maybe you don't. When you put your hand inside, all the kittens save for one completely ignore you. However, this one kitten, walks up to your hand and starts nuzzling it. It isn't the one you wanted, but it likes you. You never want a pet that you have to force to be with you. So you take this kitten home. It grows and basically becomes your familiar, protecting you, keeping you alert. It does the same for your family, and your family after that. Until each time something bad is going to happen, someone dreams about that kitten or a kitten, looking exactly like yours runs over to your later generations. Its sort of like that. An animal that chose you will stick with you and your family forever._

From my experience, a familiar is a magickal creature that is summoned for a specific purpose. It can come in the form of a cat or a dragon, but you don't always know for sure.

The task also has to be chosen carefully. If it is too vague then the familiar may not know what to do.

Cats are commonly know as familiars from folklore as the eyes of a witch.

Here is from my journal in January 2007 on familiars:

Familiar Spirits: A Practical Guide for Witches and Magicians, by Donald Tyson.

According to the book, familiars are called for a specific set of tasks. You call the familiar through a system of glyphs which form a sigil that becomes the essence of the familiar and it forms it name.

The example in the book is

"Reveal and Bring the occult texts I require", which is digested to RBOTIR and forms the name "Rabbit Ear". Then you choose different glyphs according to the system in the book to form the sigil. After, you conduct a ritual, then the familiar should appear to you. It could be stray cat or a bird, or a new friend.

There is more to the book. The author lists some real names of familiars from actual witch trials:

Jack
Tom
Ball
Lightfoot
Rorie
Makeshift
Holt (white kitten)
Jamara (a fat spaniel)
Vinegar Tom (gyeyhound that turned into a headless child and ran off before the authorities could capture him as evidence)
Sacke and Sugar (black rabbit)
Newes (polecat)
Three little people kept in different bottles (Big Dick, Little Dick, and Willet)
Suckin - black dog
Lyerd - red lion
Tyffin - black lamb
Pigin - a black toad
Tittey - gray cat
Jack - black cat

My familiar was a squirrel in the flesh and still is with me in spirit. I can feel him the weight of him sitting on my shoulder many times during the day. I do not know if he was with me in previous lives but I hope he stays with me in future ones.

The bond between a human and a familiar will continue to last as long as the human exist. How the familiar or dragon reacts to the person he/she is with depends on how they are treated. if the human is cruel, the dragon will fight them, if they are friendly, they will like them.

Speaking from experience, the dragon that strays with me stays due to the friendship we have with each other. I have always treated him as a friend, not a creature that I control. he is free to come and go as he pleases.

I think a familiar will stay with it's "master" (I hate to use that term, but I have no better one to replace it with) as long as it is needed. It could be for a mere couple hours, or for several lifetimes. I also think it can make a choice on whether it wishes to stay with that particular person or move on.

I was told by a reader that everyone walks around with two guides. they were there at the time the universe first conceived you and would be until the universe unraveled. She also told me people have a tendency to stop listening to them. perhaps that is where people start doing harmful things.

(to the one that started this thread)interesting quetions *so these are the things u think about when we are all asleep hu? smiles just kidding I hope u aren't affended I'm just poking :)
a good question indeed I think !!!

I believe a familar or dragon doesn't have the choice to choose, but i think it does have the choice to turn on it's human that it has been assigned too and the myth goes if the familar turns on it's witch it turns human and frees it's self I believe in that. IDK much about it but yeah that is my piece and I don't know much about dragons accept that their friendly ^^

Well I believe that they are there to help along on the journey and that they can try to change your heart. But honestly if a heart doesn't want to change it won't. There really isn't anything you can do if they don't want to change.

I believe that they could very well follow us into that lifestyle yes.

This question has made me think. I believe that our familiars pick us, no matter what shape our familiar takes. Sometimes they are sent to help or protect us. Sometimes they are sent to teach us. And sometimes they are sent to walk along our path in life with us. They would not pick us if they thought we were a worthless cause. I could go on and on, but I think I'll leave some room for someone else. Very good question.

The dragon is by no means a familiar. It cannot just be summoned by or at will. It is a protector first and foremost. A keeper at all times, and a friend to the most honourable.

Familiars are blind slaves that serve their masters command. Cats, dogs etc. Depending on the individuals point of view of course.

(to XSilverxMoonxNightX it was in my sleep lol j/k lol it takes more then that to offend me lol no worries lol)

I consider that indeed a familiar can choose, just as a dragon, the main difference I beleive is that a familiar can be asign, on the oposit a dragon will never be asign but will make a free choice.

The link stays for lifetimes, and grows, still I think a familiar will never leave, a dragon may choose to leave if betray.

My uhmble opinion and beleif.

I think they can sense the good or evil in things. I think that they can see spirits and what not, but I don't know if they could be demon. If you raise them right, I assume they are good all the time.

I think a familiar is one that would make a bound and be one with the human who is sort of a soul mate (not in a lover way but in a spiritual way) as thed ragon is sort of a soul mate to a human but by destiny, again not as a love but more strong then love, a bond that is like a bound of life.

I cannot speak about dragons...the only one I know is my imaginary one...or archetype if you like.

Guides I think stay with us as long as they please.

I tend to think that teaching/learning is a two way thing....a guide can perhaps learn lessons from the one being guided as well as the other way round.

I think that familiars, dragon, etc....are effected by the human they are connected to. If that human where to die perhaps the creature will retain the influence of said human.

I'm not sure what I think as far as how long a familiar, dragon, etc... will stay with a human.

to use your term like any animal / creature they have their own path be it good or bad as you put it. They will be drawn to one simulate to them selves and thus pick someone like minded ..

Like a Cat, you dont pick a cat , Cats pick you...

I think that the link can be strong which could cause a animal to grieve maybe later if the bond was severed....

animlas must feel the bond on some level. ppl dont give them enough crdit

To comment on the Dragon,No such creatures ever existed to become a familiar or a protecter.

In such case as an animal as a Familiar, I could see that the animal will grow a bond with its master over time.

As for me, I have a cat that I have had for more then 20 years and he is still bonded to me,I was the first face he seen when he opened his eyes and I'll be the face he will see when he passes away.

I beleive it is a familiar's duty to be the familiar, but they don't nessesarily have to agree. They do have a mind and will of their own. Should they not agree they do not help either way.

The bond between familiar and witch (in this case) is strong as it is. I believe that they will stick with the good or the bad..because they are a part of you. They are similar to you.

The more I think about this, the more I tend to agree that a Dragon would not be the same as a familiar. They tend to think they are vastly superior to a mere human. I think they would be more likely to be there as your guide. They would probably be there to teach you something. But you know that it also probably depends a lot on the person and the dragon themselves.

A familiar is drawn to someone for a reason. They cannot be stated in a post like this.

that is true they are drawn to a person by a special bond that they have with the person they are matched with I think that you can have more then one cuz I have had 4 in my life

OK here we go. Dragons and Familiars some are independant and can become good or evil through heritage or experience, but when the human factor is involved it takes on the humans behavioral patterns wether good or evil.

Familiars are just like the elemental beings: inferior spirits.I won`t include dragons in this cathegory.

Dragons r like a protector n a way.

Familiars are blind slaves that serve their masters command.

They do what's told of them -- they have no cotroll over it .They can be used for either .

Personally i do not believe in a link between em but thats just me opinion.

I believe that they hve their own choices and personalities, they can choose to be good or evil, and if they begin to dislike that human they are attached to, i believe they can easily sever the connections.

Personally I think it's not a choice... a person is destined for a certain kind of familiar... However, that person can shun the familiar... in which case they never really leave but check in from time to time...

chech out this website i found http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1009586

Well done, Pepper.

Familiars can take many forms and they choose the person to bond with and become their familiar and to be with them always.

I believe some creatures may be familiars in real life while others are spirit creatures only and so can pick their own form to inhabit so if one chose to appear as a dragon, why not?

I don't think they have a choice in the matter. They get ensnared by things stronger than they.

I think it is a spiritual bond formed before birth. I think it is a choice on both the familiar and the human like they make a deal of some sort, or Karmic contract. Which is why I believe it is so strong and unbreakable.

I have always thought that the familiar is based on the general characteristics of the person who familiarizes them; nice people will have nice familiars, mean people will have mean familiars. It is not up to the familiar in my mind. The familiar is a tool for the practitioner.

I'm not sure as to the role of a dragon familiar. First, I am not terribly versed on familiars. Second, what I do know leaves me under the impression the 'best' or 'most effective' familiars are those with whom the practitioner is in close contact, e. g. a pet. I don't know about you, but I haven't heard of many people owning the mythical representation of a dragon, and Komodos tend to be rare enough in zoos.

Who knows if the had a choice. But I think back in there day the might be like the dogs are know loyal to there owner and faithful

becomethesea hit the nail on the head. It's all about what the person sees in the animal. This is after all, our invention.

I think their in it for the long haul, no matter how the person acts.

it is how every you use them to bethe good or evil one.

lovelydeath -

No under-lying, perhaps more relivant to the topic, thought?

as with all creatures they don't always get to choose most of the time it all dependes on how they are raised and who they are raised by wether they become good or they become evil its all in the up bringing.

If fire breathing dragons actually existed on earth I am not sure they would not of lived too long before humans killed them as they would of been perceived as a threat to humankind...

I believe that totems, or animal spirit guides usually serve a beneficial purpose. They aid a person with life lessons, and healing in general. A familiar serves the same purpose, but is a creature that exists on the physical realm. Mythological creatures can be totems, I believe, because they exist on the astral realm. Some mythic creatures, such as dragons, are often weary of working with humans, preferring to get to know us first before forging a relationship.

If a creature with negative intentions exists on the astral realm, and is following a person, usually the person drew that entity to himself because of thought patterns or actions. The person can dismiss the entity if they choose, or visit a healer to perform this function if needed.

A person can have lifelong totems, as well as totems that come to a person for a certain amount of time to fulfill a specific purpose.

It is rare for dragons to work with humans, but is a blessing is one has a dragon companion as a guide. Their energy is very powerful. Oberon Zell Ravenheart, the head of the Grey School of Wizardry, wrote an excellent guide on dragons, and their spiritual nature. I hope this answer was helpful to you.

i think its one of those thing were a dragon like any spiritual being can chose to be a familiar. they decide in the being to be bound to you for better or worse.

The distinction between good & evil is a human ideal. Can there truely be an angelic white dragon...or an evil dragon with a dark soul? I think the ying & yang that keeps order in the universe doesn't side one way or the other...so why would the spiritual form of a dragon? In physical form a dragon would be a reptile...& biology class explains the temperament of such creatures.

I LOVE DRAGONS!!!!!!

To answer the question about the link between humans and dragons ... I submit the following web site:

http://www.allaboutcreation.org/Dragon-History.htm

Now as far as the link between human and familiar:

I believe it is a metaphysically mental/emotional bond that develops which can be 'encouraged' by magicks or left to 'grow' on its own. once this bond is developed it can only be broken by the death of one or the other that is connected in this bond. this bond can only exist between 2 creatures/entities/beings at once ... ie. human and their pet/familiar but only one at a time.

Being an actual dragon (at least born in a Dragon year) I don't ever plan to leave myself.

ha ha

One a more serious note - I have been told that I have not one but two dragon protectors surrounding me. I am sure one is my deceased father who was also born in a Dragon year. The other is Bruce Lee, of course.

No, your familiars and dragons don't leave you. They are bound to you.

SP

It becomes in my mind, more important to find out who the dragons really are, and what the relationship of dragon to human is first and foremost ... Dragons and wildness and death are all connected in some obscure way in my imagination. But dragons are also life . In Tehanu we learn that dragons and humans were once "one people, one race, winged, and speaking the True Language ... But in time nothing can be without becoming".Change is the one constant. Some of the dragon-people stayed in the west choosing wildness, flight, and freedom while others sailed east, choosing knowledge and treasure, building, learning, making, and shaping

Or, as I am going to argue: dragons chose to be Nature; humans chose to be a part of nature. Some of us humans, have made the choice of the active and connected life; dragons chose to be the act, to be True Speech. It is this choice that has evolved in the earth & sea cycle, as does our knowledge and understanding of both humans and dragons & their magical connection throughout the passage of time.
As for humans and familiars & the connection between the two. To most people today, a familiar is a witch's companion, a small animal "pet" that helps the witch with magic. The idea of the familiar is a very ancient concept and is generally applied to such creatures as cats, dogs, ferrets, toads, snakes, and some birds. Unfortunately, familiars have been given negative connotations by those who know nothing about them and don't bother to separate fact from propaganda.Anyone can have a familiar. You may already have an actual physical familiar living in your home in the guise of a pet. You can also attract an astral-bodied animal familiar. This can be a particular creature that is impossible to have as a "pet" in the physical.Most people have at least a little knowledge about the power animals of the Native American traditions. However, the Native Americans were not the only ones who knew of and used the powers of familiar, which is what power animals are. For centuries, European cultures called upon animal allies in shamanistic rites. European shamanism eventually evolved into Wicca and Paganism.

Interesting topic Oceanne, even though I am finding it so late in to the ball game.

Personally to me the familiar chooses you, not the other way around. The familiar is there to guide you and help you when it is needed through out life. A book that I can suggest on this is Animal Speaks by Ted Andrews. The introduction of the book would help understand more as to why our familiars choose us to bond with.I am not certain about the dragon however, but would tend to believe that their bond is just as strong no matter what you are going through in your life.

I have never heard of a dragon being a familiar but I would guess they could be teachers in the same sense as a totem. Usually you find cats and birds but I am sure it could be anything. It has never been proven that dragons ever existed although I believe they did like the unicorn because they appear too often in writings over many centuries but when referring to dragons it can mean many things.

As for witch trials well most of those people were tortured into saying all sorts of things and the superstitious who lived in the area accused people of some very outlandish things. Information like that cannot be taken to be fact but just folklore and urban legend.

There has to be some sort of emotional and psychic bond for a Familiar to successfully merge with the witch for the purpose of doing magick. I would think that the Familiar would be on the same spiritual Path of the one it attaches itself to so I do not think the Familiar would change from good to evil.

I have heard of spirit animals not only being limited to mammals--that insects and reptiles have also bee used. So if there are dragons, I would suppose that if a bond were possible, that it would be no different from any other bonding between a witch and any other magickal and/or spiritual helpers.

The definition of a Dragon, as most probably already know, means Giant Snake. They are very ancient creatures that most cultures went through a lot of trouble to build structures to symbolize them. For such a creature to be only spiritual...that is hard for me to see at this point. A guide is usually one that does not judge a path that one wishes to take. They rather help one to get back on their path should one say...get lost in confusion.

Dragons do exist and have existed.. But your idea is different then mine.. I see big lizards as dragons..

I see the links between a familiar and its human as imaginary.

They are there to comfort one another.

With that, I think that the human may detach his or herself from his or her familiar with great ease, as well as vice versa.

Take this however you will. The person who speaks of this gave much of the materials to Laurence Gardner for his Grail King and Ring Lord books and is supposedly the head of the Order of the Dragon as it exists in the persent although he has stepped down for health reasons and a family member is running it. Here is what this organization says what the dragon is...there are a many views on this out and about.

“The Dragon” is a term I use generally to mean the dragon archetype resting within the Dragon blood and passed on through the genes. It is the conduit through which flow the memories of the wisdom and experience of the Dragons who have gone before. The word “dragon” is derived from the Greek “edrakon”, which is an aorist of the word “derkesthai”, which means “to see clearly”. “The Dragon” therefore is the inherited Dragon archetype and that archetype is the conduit of clear sight through which racial knowledge flows. Clear sight also and principally refers to transcendent consciousness.

Roughly ten percent of Europeans have Dragon blood, and stem from families whose physical attributes clearly point to a genetic inheritance over 100,000 years old. This figure is calculated from research deriving from studies by Oxford University and matched to historical accounts.

(He is probably talking about Koine Greek which came from Alexander the Great and is very specific by tense)

http://www.pehi.eu/organisations/grove/Symbolism/Nicholas_interview.htm

In the sense of good and evil i feel that familiar have no sense of either, they are neutral, but have the choice to leave or stay.

Well, I don't think a dragon can be used as a familiar myself. If there were a link between them I think it would be something like from 'Aragon' or whatever.

I feel that there is only choices in good and evil. So we have to decide ourselves if it is good or evil.

What books? I'd like to go check them out. ;]

I would have to say that it is due to the attachment to their human is what they will do.

I want to know how the hell dragon's became extinct if they were in human times. I'm not %100 sure that dragons exist because there is no fossilized evidence of their existance.

It is just rather upsetting there is no real dragons in the world other then the big huge lizards like the komodo dragons..

I don't think that animals have the reasoning, questioning minds that we do- that's why we're considered the 'superior' race(though I don't think that)-
So I think the animal can neither be good or evil, because that would indicate that they clearly understand the difference and made a choice for themselves.