There is a common misconception out there that Satan and Lucifer are the same entity. I do not believe this to be true. I'm not referring to Satanism (which describes Satan as a dark force of nature).
I belive Satan to be a much older entity than Lucifer. Lucifer is an angel, created by God. Satan is an older being, not created by God. Here's how my philosophy goes...
Satan was here long before God came around. I'm not talking about the earth plane. That wasn't here yet (God created the earth plane after defeating Satan). Satan had set up shop, and had his own little show going on.
Then God came along, and saw what Satan had done with the place. Either out of jealousy or thinking he could do better, God created his army of angels and marched in and waged war.
In the end, God won. But he couldn't destroy Satan. God created the nether regions to hold Satan prisoner (along with his minions). At this point, standard Judeo-Christian philosophy occurs. The heavens and earth are created. The sons of God fall in love with the daughters on man. The nephilim rise. 1/3 of God's angels revolt. Tartarus is created. And Lucifer is given the keys to Hades and the responsibility of keeping Satan locked away.
That is a really neat idea. I personally really like it and have seen it supported many a time. There is no way for me to argue with it for I see no other way of it being presented that I would stand by. I am giving you my support with your opinion
Cancer, on what do you base these very interesting ideas on?
It does make sense to me-- then Lucifier, being a fallen angel and all.
everybody knows unless ur dumb 1 off god came FIRST DUH he is tha all mighty creatorwheater we like it or not and 2nd duh ,is that lucifer was satans name whwn he was an angel with god duh look it up in the bible l satan is another name for lucifers and lucifer and satan are one in the same like i said it even states that in the bible so s it is impossiable for satan to exist before god and that satan and lucifer and 2 different entiteis u people are dumb
makes sense... I have lots of trouble with this whole, heaven, hell, god, satan concept thingy. but makes an interesting theory for the pile :)
the term satan means the accuser....
lucifer and satan are referred to as separate entities in many references.....even in some catholic texts on the catalogueing of saraphi nephili and demoni.....some ancient text actually refer to hell being as it is in heaven...a triumvirate that lucifer is just in charge of with satan and beelzebub as his generals.......and yes hell was supposed to have existed pre satan....he was put in charge of it....it was not created for him....
it was previously ran by leviathan....who is mythologically similar to Jormugandr the world serpent......I would give my sources but most of this comes from a lifetime of random reading along with an interest in occult and religious lore.....and as such I have read many books that are extremely difficult to find....or are now out of print....
one of the best info sites i've seen was tezrians vault....but the door seems to have been locked on that vault....pardon the pun
I will try to find a few for the peeps about here....been a while since I did reasearch on this subject
Genesis 1:1
"In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was a formless void"
Based on this theory, in my opinion, I cannot imagine such a fiery fight between Satan and God ever took place prior to the "big bang" and like Scarlett, I would also like to know the source of reference to this information.
I will be contributing further to this thread as I have to scoot to work now butit is Fabulous subject matter Cancer! In the meantime here is the Satanic Bible description of Lucifer.
"The Roman god, Lucifer, was the bearer of light, the spirit of the air, the personification of enlightenment. In Christian mythology he became synonymous with evil, which was only to have been expected from a religion whose very existence is perpetuated by clouded definitions and bogus values! It is time to set the record straight. False moralisms and occult inaccuracies must be corrected. Entertaining though they might be, most stories and plays about Devil worship must be recognized as the obsolete absurdities they are"
Wow interesting theory, enjoyed reading it!
Satan all the way m/
Hmm I have no personal theories to share, but I'm open to any beliefs.
Wow!!
This is heavy..
Ok..first things first...Lucifer is an angel..that had the sin of pride because he said "I will be much powerful than God" [check Isaiah]
Now..Satan..in the Bible he is compared to a LOT of things...[lion, dragon, monster, wolf under sheep skin]
I believe that he is the same person...Once the beautiful angel Lucifer fallen from grace and then eventually turned out to be Satan...
in the begining there was silence (satan)
then there came the word (god)
and with the shattering of the word into words and the silence into the spaces inbetween.... meaning and reality were born.
lucifer in this senario would be the first dawning light ever.
Satan and god would be equally important because there can be no distinctness to anything without it being broken apart from god.
Well said, Mordes. Very nicely done.
I suppose reading that makes it the most likely happening.
i'm quite a dumbass with theology and all this stuff, but let me explain my point of view.
i'm a scientist and the most probable beginning thing was big bang.
energy 'splitting' into matiere//antimatiere in a big explosion.
and on that point i could agree with the presence of a superior entity that brought the energy.
but why has this entity to be perfect?
can't it be that the man that created religion did splitt this entity in two, just because a god has to be perfect?
so this is where i wanted: satan and god r the same entity, misviewed or voluntarily badly discribed by the human viewers that created religion?
You came up with a most interesting theory. I myself don't believe in either one, but I won't knock anyone else for their beliefs. Although these days I don’t believe in much of anything, so whose to say which of us is right on this subject, but either way your theory’s still pretty cool.
Thank you Cancer. It lends more credence to the reason why when talking about Satan, most people talk of forked tail and hooves, yet the Bible says Lucifer was the most beautiful of all the angels. If there can be 2 on the side of "good" (God and Jesus) why can't there be 2 on the side of "evil" (Satan and Lucifer)? This gives me yet another reason to question any religious zealot that comes to my door to force feed me their beliefs.
ob1 i think your a phylosifer that is deep shit id agree with you it is the most logical man cannot survive without the belief in soom thing it gives man the support he needs to live life, i mean back in the day man thought there was a god of thunder because they couldnt explain why the sky mad noises so the sacraficed a virgin to there 'god' but now we know what it is. see what i mean
OB1, what you said comes the closest to what i believe ... that the "god/satan" entity are one and the same, simply split my man into two creatures/entities.
The creator/catalyst for existence, for my belief (which, with 35 cents you can make a phone call) is both good and evil, male and female, creator and catalyst for creation, interested and disinterested, multi-aspected and singular, correct and incorrect - and none of the above, all at the same time, as well as so many other aspoects both contradictory and and complimentary.
Why can the being/beings who instigated THIS *gestures at the wide universes* not be as variegated as their/its creations, as perfect and imperfect?
Hrm. I think i digressed greatly from Cancer's original topic ... Satan vs. Lucifer, different entities. My apologies.
Interesting theory Cancer.
What I would believe is that "satan", which is referred to as "shaitan" in arabic or "xitan" in maltese is actually another personification of "lucifer" or "leviathan", just as the christian religion teaches that the "holy ghost", "jesus" and "god" are personifications of the same entity.
Just an opinion; I'm open for discussion.
i think cancer could be on to something. the morning star has a lot of hate in him for god and he knows god "loves us" so with the power we know he weilds why wouldn't he destroy us? maybe beacuse he can't because he is locked away by lucifer and in a lot of christian text lucifer and satan are referred to as different creatures. or maybe everyones wrong. what if there is no satan and there is no god? and the bible is just a over written story book?
OB1, I have to say that I do agree with what you are saying. I myself believe that religion was made up by man to regain order in a caotic society so many people need boundries to live by which I think is sad that you need something to tell you how you need to live your life but that is their choice to do so.
I don't and will never believe in god or the devil (satan, lucifer ect). I do belief that with good comes bad there has to be a balance they go hand in hand.
I often get myself into trouble with talk like this I'm glad there is a place that subjects like this can be discussed.
In short its all a fable made up for the people.
I just wish religion wasn't engraved into children untill they are old enough to choose and make sense of it for themselves. Their minds are corrupted with this information way to early and it takes away their right to make their own oppinions because they have already had the information grilled into their little brains.
let me assure you..i grill flushing the toilet in alot more then religion..
and the water in the pot is still yellow...
kids make their own choices regardless of the parenting. We might influence..but they decide.
Interessting Theory Cancer..
for me as i dont beleve in God ,Satan, Lucifer or any Named "Persons",I beleve in diferent Natural bad and Good Spirits,but not as "persons"just as kind of beings.........
so this is my Point of view....
but im open to any other Idea and Theory
In some areas I have researched the emphasis seems to be less on lucifer hating god....and more that he simply disagrees with him as a child is wont to do with parents.....I love my parents....but they are wrong about a great many things....as am I i'm sure....who's to say celestial perntal child relations are any different?
Hmm...different point of views..
anymore? this is exciting..
=)
As far as grilling religion into children ... I have the religious education of my goddaughter. Her mother doesn't want to touch the idea of religion - she is a fervent atheist, so when Raven has questions she gets bumped over to me.
I point her to different writings from all different religions, different philosophers, even the writings of didactic blowhard preachers, and yes, avowed athiests.
As a result, Raven has few questions like, "Is there a god?" and more about "Who wrote different views on morality? What *is* morality?" She is learning to intake varying different bits of information, assimilate them, and decide and think for herself what she believes. She has not decided on any specific thing yet. To my knowledge, her beliefs remain fluid.
She did ask me what I believe. I explained my views to her, and the only thing she asked was "Does it work for you?"
only thing i have to offer is that the name Lucifer means "bringer of (the) light" ..lol
That's rather sweet, Req.
Mine works for me, but I feel I must delve deeper.
I think tonight is a good night to do so.
Req. I think that that is a wonderful way to handle a childs curiosity it was also how I was brought up when ever I had a question I went to my father and he gave me different points of views and beliefs he himself is a pagan.
But anyway I don't like it when its given to them without any options. Just lets go to church!! Why??? Because I said so and thats just the way it is.
You know i never thought about it like that,i was watching the history channel and they also said that there was no mention of these names until the bible many of know of had been decifered(sp)It also said that in one of the the original texts(i forgot what country) that there was a wife as well as many winged bad"angels".I know i rambled but it is an interesting subject for me.
Okay, lots of responses here to catch up on. If I miss your's, I'm sorry.
I do not give credence to The Church of Satan or any of their teachings. Anton Szandor LaVey was quite brilliant in his own way, but I think he got a lot of things wrong. I think The Satanic Bible should be required reading... There are some great ideas in that book and you cannot discuss Satanism intelligently until you have read it. If you haven't, the book will probably blow you away.
This philosophy of mine is based on several sources, but most predominately a mixture of Judeo and Babylonian teachings.
Anyone that argues 'God came first' blah blah is quite closed-minded. As is anyone who argues strict Big Bang theory. Personally, I believe in the Big Bang. But who is to say that God wasn't the one who created the Bang?
If you are going to use the Bible as your primary source for the definition of Lucifer and Satan, I suggest to thoroughly read the Bible before stating the two are the same entity. (I get very weary of people misquoting the Bible... In my experience, very few people have read it in its entirety, much less studied its content)
It will vary based upon which translation you read, but Lucifer is rarely mentioned in the Bible.
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! [ Isaiah 14:12 - King James Version ]
Do you have any idea how far you've fallen? A Lucifer fall! "Turn back! Recover your dear early love. No time to waste, for I'm well on my way to removing your light from the golden circle. [ Revelation 2:5 - The Message Version ]
That's it. The second passage is only a comparison to Lucifer. Also, if you know your Bible history, Isaiah is one of the prophet books of the Old Testament. Lucifer is never mentioned in any of the historical books of the Bible.
Satan is mentioned many times, in many verses. But he is talked about differently than Lucifer is.
The Book of Job gives a good example of Satan. Job is a very old book, disconnected from most of the Old Testament. Read that, then study who Lucifer was, and you'll start to see how they are not the same entity.
See this is what i mean.....i love reading the info you have to give.I know i give examples from things i've seen on some channels that i don't know about and then you come and set it straight...hail the prince
ohhh.. were havin fun now..lol
an as afar as "satanism" goes ..well .. i HAVE read the books by LaVey ..and he doesn't even really believe in Satan he's just a hedonist with a vengance..lol
his main philosophy to put it in its basest terms is to "do what ya wanna do ...forget everyone else" ... and thats about it...selfishnes is good to put it another way..lol
maybe satan and god existed as the good and evil and the only reason lucifer chose to betray god was because the forces of the dark side had overcome him .
In the bible's text, it says that Lucifer was second in command with god, and the most beautiful angel. He thought he could take on God and was sent down to hell to rule.
very interesting points, satan-lucifer-god exist in a plane where time is not relevant. but i digress and must go research before comment.
most interesting,
but then why would God still be fighting satan
this brings the an interesting question, does God like the conflict?
Personally, i don't belive that anyone of these beings exists. but i belive that the bible speaks of Lucifer, the second most powerful being onn the universe, who
revolted against god, but failed.
For his betrayl, he was cast out of paradise, and was punished to
maintain hell., And then, he became Satan, which in latin or something, means "Opposer".
To metalmessiah and Ishamael, quote me the bible passage that refers to Lucifer (not Satan) being cast out of Heaven. Please also include the translation you are using.
If you are going to cite the Bible as a source, back up your statements.
I'd love to quote it, but i'm not going to search through the entire bible, just to prove a point, I mean, it is a fairly thick book, and the content isn 't exactly well written. maybe i'll check it out on the net, but i can't promise anything.
Ok the Hell fire and brimstone and the forked tongue and hooves thing i swear i hurd somewere that the Catholic church came out and admited to lieing about that. That they did it only to keep there members in line and that Satan was the most beautiful angel there was.
And to this thread i think Cancer has a good point i mean i have read the Bible and it doesnt talk much about satan and lucifer being one, but you have to think as aa well most people balive in hte god head god jesus and the holy ghost being one, how can the son be the father and the father be the son? most people take the Bible out of context and add in it what they balive it to mean.
The only way to take the bible TRULY in context is in its original languages, spiced with a thorough understanding of the political, social and religious views of the various times in question. *sigh* I would adore to know, from a RELIABLE authority, which translation of the bible into english most closely reflects the original text.
The word "satan" is actually Hebrew, and literally means "adversary", though "opposer/opponent" is as good a synonym as any. It is used in context in the hebrew Torah to describe an adversary (7 times), and as the specific Adversary against God, Satan (19 times).
It was translated into Latin also as Satan, but in Greek it was translated as "diabolos", which is the root of our english name The Devil. As Cancer pointed out, "Lucifer" appears only once, in Isaiah 14:12. It is obvious, when we are talking about Yahweh/Elohim/God's opponent, Satan is his name.
How did we come to associate Lucifer with Satan, then? This is thanks to a Latin misinterpretation of the Hebrew term from Isaiah 14:12, "heylel ben shachar", which literally means, "the most-praised son of the morning".
Heylel is actually an adjective, which means "highly-prized" in Hebrew. It comes from the verb "halal", to praise, and is the root of another common word of praise, Halelujah. This word also takes on the connotations of the dark side of pride, as well, specifically the boastful arrogant nature of pride, which is what makes it one of the seven deadly sins.
In fact, this is plain to see in the next verse, as we see how this "heylel ben shachar" claimed he would ascend into heaven above and exalt himself higher even than God. It isn't said by name, nor even suggested by reference, such as a serpent or dragon, but merely implied that this boastful would-be king is Satan.
When St. Jerome was translating the various versions of the Bible into one consolidated canon, known as the Latin Vulgate, he chose to use a different interpretation of "most-praised", that being, "shining", or "the brightest". This would now read as "the brightest shining son of the morning", and he chose the word "lucifer", the Latin term for "light-bearer", for this person.
This may or may not have been influenced by the fact that Lucifer was the name of the Roman god associated with the planet we know as Venus. Venus is so bright in the heavens that it can be seen day and night, giving it the other nickname, the morning star. Funny how this nickname, derived from the Greek god Phosphorus for the same planet, is commonly used to reference Jesus Christ.
Thanks to this association, Isaiah 14:11-15 now reads as follows (in King James Version - your mileage may vary):
Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [and] the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
The rest, boys and girls, is history, and left to fester therein.
Rev. Daniel
"Pick one, pick none, pick all of the above!"
Rev Daniel *grins* that suits you!
In the NRSV that I read, Lucifer is not mentioned, but I realise he is the Crown Prince of Satan. The readings you mention make compelling reading.
The idea of the Devil as Lucifer, the fallen angel cast from heaven because of his pride, derives from Isaiah 14:12-15. Although Isaiah was not actually referring to the Devil, but to the King of Babylon, the name Lucifer has become associated with Satan because of the similarity of passages such as Luke 10:18 and Revelation 9:1 to the Isaiah scripture.
Rev emmy
I would like to point out, I am not using the Bible to argue this point. I am merely responding to others in this thread who claim that 'The Bible says....' blah blah.
The Bible does not say Lucifer and Satan are the same. It also does not say they are different entities.
I am bringing this to the top, because among the digressions from THIS topic, are some intelligent responses to HIS question. *bump*
intresting theorys... :::sits in chair and reads all of cancer's post:::
The Bible is a fantastic tool. We have quotes galore from it all over VR in many threads :)
There is no darkness, only absence of light.If a man losses his keys he will first check under the lantern for the light enables him to see. Its hard to tell who's from who in a world were everybody's perception of life is defferent. And all the wars, monarchy's,transcribing,Money,fear of being persicuted,etc,etc. To get on with it I say follow your heart and your effort in your beliefs will bare your harvest. Anybody can say thats evil, thats the way, Your going to hell for living an interesting life. Its good that everybody has a different outlook would'nt it be lame if we all believed we came from a turd.
a very intellectual analysis. i do beleave you could be correct on what u are teaching us cancer i must say i have thought similar things but it never went beyond the thought of something and most definately wasnt anything such as what u were talking about but flirted with the same idea.....i would love to hear more about your thoughts on satan and lucifer being 2 and not 1
I loved reading the above.. esp Cancers' theory & ElderDaniels bit... I thouroughly agree.. this due to reading the bible, talking with different people, and certain experiences of my own, also I wish to include that Satan and Lucifer are not on the best of terms... so no one should at any point thing they are the same and one being. They are not.
very interesting thread. Something to think about.
I find it hard to know what to believe as I find it hard to believe in the idea of 'God' but I really like your perspective Cancer.
I am impressed. I've got to say this, these discussions here at Vampire Rave are the most intelligent I've seen on the net in 10 years. I notice the majority of us love to read, study history, write poetry and have no problems expressing ourselves, I am glad to be here. Having said that, on this : Satan vs Lucifer" topic..
For me I'll simply, Ying and Yang
Light and Dark
Grey area, no distinct thought either way that is proof
I do believe they ( L Vs S) are two seperate entitites also but like infinity
Who created the heavens? Who created the universe in which the Heavens reside? Who created The solar system? Who created God? Did he just "become"?
If Lucifer was a fallen angel where did he come from? Did God procreate?
Would you consider Vampire Rave my procreation? (Since I created it)
I don't think God was procreating by making his creations. The whole subject of God is far more intricate and complex than what I wanted to explore in this thread... But in a nutshell, I do not believe anyone in the earth plane can hope to comprehend the true nature, purpose, or desire of God anymore than the smallest bacteria could understand what a human is.
ElderDaniel did bring up a good point about Lucifer and the Greeks. It just further illustrates how much of Judaism and Christianity is borrowed material. But I am not speaking of nomenclature. Call things whatever you like, I am speaking to their existence.
yes the conversations on here are very intellectual and i do beleave wether there is a god or satan or any other force out there guiding us along this long and twisted path it is natural for us to wonder and discuss what and how all this works. however i think that if we understood it and knew exactly who was in charge and if indeed satan and lucifer were of 2 different bodies or if god jesus and the holy spirit were of 3 persons that it would take away the thrill and suspense of life and we would become bored with our own thoughts so i beleave that this is all natural to discuss and talk about this and i find it very interesting and entertaining......but then again i could be wrong i mean i am only 16 what do i kno?
The last time I've heard any discussion of "Satan/Lucifer" was with a co-worker over a year ago! IMHO, Lucifer is a fallen angel and the bringer of light, while Satan is not only a separate thing, but also a "bad reputation" Lucifer was given. I haven't read the Christian Bible in a long time, anf never read the Satanic Bible, but they're both on my "read soon" list.
I wouldn't dare guess how Satan was shun by man through xtian intervention but I'll ask some JoS High Priests . Perhaps they'll be able to help :)
But I do like mr Cancer's theory . Leaves room for hope :)
ok here is how i see it
lucifer was an angel who kept questioning god (if there is one) so god kickes him and his followers out and they became fallen
then saten took them in
but any way i agree with cancer
mehhh where do people FIND these old threads I thought we closed em!