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Has Goth "jumped the shark"? Will Goth regain its luster? Or has Goth just become another fad?

I think there are many levels to Goth now.. I do think the persona that Goth all wear black and look all depressed is a done deal..

Taking this from the fashion point of view-

Maybe it have evolved into other styles like Steampunk?
Diversity is a good thing, and goth will always have a place in style. Even some of the high couture fashion designers collections of the last few years has gone more 'darker'. Same with the makeup looks on the runways.

Goth was never something I took seriously, in fact I hate them a little bit more than other humans but only because they wear black, I like to wear black as its a favorite of mine and I am a bad person but are people intimidated? original yes, now? no, they say "looks its a goth" then I have to beat them up and tell them what a goth is and that I am an anarchist not a vampire wannabe or death obsessed.
Goth is not dead enough.

Apologies for he rant but I had to ditch some decent clothes just to avoid being forced to nut anyone who would mistake me for a goth or emo.

Well I know the whole black and depressed thing is now stereotypical but its most recognized aspect of them,even if they now have other forbiddens.

I rarely wear my long black leather duster now as I really hate being mistaken for a goth/emo.

Sorry I meant forbiddens.

Ok what the deuce? error or something?
well I meant that now, goths have taken different appearances.

For some reason I could not say s.t.y.l.e.s

Yes it is a stereotype... I do believe that everyone has the one area they fit into most.. Weather its Goth or Punk or metalhead or whatever.. but yes you are right.. I tend to really hate to be labeled, cause usually what they label as they are dead wrong

Well its nothing to do with labeling, its just, I am not a goth or emo, so being called such is annoying, A goth is someone who is obsessed with death, at least that was one of the original definitions, now there is depression, angst, poem writers etc.

I enjoy death (mostly watching it happen) though I am not obsessed with it or its concept. I don't revolve my lifeforbidden around it. I like wearing black or dark clothes but that is only because its my favorite shade. I ain't depressed and I don't wear make up either.

I guess in one way, since the original definition no longer applies to goths of the past decades, then true goths have long and long since been dead. Ironic really.

Yes I am not a goth either.. but I also dont wear black to be called as such.. I have been called many other things.. but I would prolly get annoyed as well if someone called me goth.. cause as your definition I am in no way shape or form obsessed with death

Obsession with death was the early version of goths to wear black etc but as time went on, depression, poem writing and angst, emotional issues, self harming and suicidal tendencies became a part of the goth lifeforbidden.

Hey I write Dark Poetry and Im not goth hahaha

But your right those are the signs and also some are into the cutting stuff

Dark poetry by itself no, but with the other "traits", that is what the goth have been like for years.

Yes I do have alot of Goth readers... some of mine are very dark and depressing and then people try to figure out what I must look like and then when they see its nothing that they thought haha

Yes, people do tend to get an a image in their head after looking at someone's profile or journal. Unless they got a good intuitive aptitude then the image is usually the wrong one. You can't judge a book by its cover.

I have been noticing the same thing this year and in summer I made a journal entry about it. In fact there haven't been 'what is goth' threads for ages.

In my country we have one 'gothic' shop and the owner said these last two years sales have decreased because nowadays people prefer tees and emo clothing.

Gothic parties get orginised too but have decreased, and only a few go, nowadays.

So it seems yes, the goth era is dead or almost, then I won't go into detail of what is really goth, had enough of that with the past threads and it always closed with 'it is a personal interpratation.'

I have to agree it is just a fad, nowadays steampunk is in and maybe emo too (does that still exist?). Or else people just call themselves as 'dark'.

As for labels, they are inevitable, you will get them. I was called depressed and cutter because I like black.

Emos are pretty much goths, they just don't wear vintage or old clothes like "normal" goths do, they are essentially the same though, depressed, angsty etc.

Dark is not a new word for goth or emo at all, its a word to describe someone who may or may not be similar to goths but is not a goth, Basically a "dark" person is just someone who is dark in certain ways. Either they may be evil or simply just be moody or grumpy, or likes dark clothing, have a sick sense of humor.

Here is some defs.

Dark commonly refers to darkness, the absence of light.
Dark may also refer to:
Evil, sinister or malign
Dark (broadcasting), a broadcasting service that has ceased transmission
Dark (video game), a stealth/action video game
DARK, a criminal organisation featured in the manga and anime Kikaider
Joanna Dark, the protagonist in the video game Perfect Dark
Dark Mousy, a character in the anime D.N.Angel

Goth is in fact far from dead. It is now a bit of a mainstream subculture. There are so many types of goth that it is distinguish between a goth and a non-goth. For example casual goths wear band t's and may or may not wear black. Goth ha actually become more of a way of life than just a fashion statement.

As I said, its not dead enough as there it is in one way or another still active, They should wear gray clothes, not black. Black is for the cool, gray suits their personalities better.

Well, what to you is the definition of goth. Once that is clear it would be an easier question to answer.

I think what most consider "Goth" has always been a fad and it gave way to Emo and now is fading. Steampunk is a related subculture which seems to be gaining steam..no pun intended.

In the end though, most subcultures rise and then fall and to most involved they're just a fad made popular by some movie, book, or music genre. There will always be those few hardcore people who will be sporting Gothic clothing and behavior when they're 75.

Of course, that then begs the question "What is Goth?" Like it or not, it is not nor ever as been a real culture but rather multiple subcultures with similarities. Goth and Emo was pushed and popularized by music and underpinned by the under 25 crowd, at least that's when most people step in to it.

To me Goth is similar to Wicca. Something made up, half fiction and half earnest belief but when the music stops and Moon goddesses fail to answer prayers or make the 'majickal' wise sages, people will come to their senses and there will be a new fad welcoming them with open arms. Maybe an iPhone 6.66? lol

Goths and emos were never "popular" except with maybe themselves and like-minded individuals, a goth is basically another version of a nerd, unpopular and picked on all the time and uncool.
In their case though its their fault for choosing that path. Goth culture stole a lot of of things that were once considered cool or punk or just normal and the thieves made it theirs and contaminated it. Long hair and eye liner that legendary punk 80s rockers had? stolen. Black or dark clothing? stolen. ong leather coats?....stolen.
I hate for them for last two.
The depressed poem writing gits should of gotten their own forbidden, like punks did before they slowly become a stereotype.

Goths were never a part of rock culture originally, its something they squeezed into and just like their thefts of certain forbiddens, it got contaminated and messed up, I no longer recognized the rockers anymore, its too mixed in with heavy metal and screamo, which goths and emos like.

There is a rock bar nearby me which I go to sometimes but sadly its not the good old rock and roll anymore, they play too much heavy metal there and from time to time, goths show up and are not dressed subtly either.

As you say Xavier, they come and go but sadly goths/emos are still with us to this day and worse, new cultures has become a part of it such as vampire wannabes.

*Long leather coats, stupid thing got posted while I was typing but point still stands. This shows you in a way that certain groups can influence society just by their actions and dress sense.

To me, it has become just another fad. It's been dead for quite awhile.

I would love for that to be true zombie but you only need to look around and you will still see some. They are not dead enough yet.

Every Fad dies eventually.. no matter if its goth, emo, punk or whatever... in my opinion

My battery died in the middle of reading these posts, but yes, just like big hair and ripped jeans it is a fad for the incredibly depressed.

I think of Goth as I do horror movies and books; in that they occasionally go underground, come and go in waves, then reinvent themselves to burst back on the scene. Goth per se may have waned in the fashion sense, but as VW said, it may simply have diversified itself to remain alternate.

Well stated Red Queen, i read this thread to indicate that perhaps Goth got highjacked by other fads.

Well yes, emos took over from the goths more or less and there will be more fads in the future.

I think it depends on where you are..Goth is certainly not dead in Japan.

No but its evolved.. and its a whole different thing now..

Punk was not bad though it did became stereotyped but before that it had some craziness and I dabbled in it myself but goths were never cool (except to themselves and like minded people) yet they persist more than others. Also since vampire wannabes seem to be gothic as well or emo, they add to the bulk of it and since vampires are still popular, obviously then vampire wannabes are going to still be around and thus so are goths.

I don't think it's dead, just think that the black clothing and white and black make up has died out a little .

Its funny because I am reading over and over here.." its all about the black clothes,angst..dark poetry..yet not one person really mentions what Goth was actually all about in the first place.And thats music.
To be more precise,Joy Division...Souix and the Banshees.the term was used to describe a type pf music that followed in the wake of punk.And the style of dress of musicians who played this music.

In fact,back in the days when that all began,we, as metal musicians called anyone who was dressing "goth" and not playing music , posures.

you're right oceanne, but the goth as we know it now were not the ones that started there, these ones started as a splinter/subgroup and they dressed and acted in the way that became stereotyped. Death and macabre obsessed and emotionally unbalanced.

I understand what youre trying to say Darkness,but from the perspective of someone who WAS there..old school goth,lets say..All of the splinter groups etc..Are all nothing but posures.
I will give credence to the fact that artisans and theatrical groups began dressing in the same manner as a result of "Gothic" music and were eventually accepted as goth.
But yeah, other than that,anything beyond the musicians are still considered posures.And believe me,they are no where close to dead.Or the music they represent/play.

Yes indeed, Goths's meaning and culture changed into a bunch a angsty depressed people. When originally before becoming death obsessed, they were simply fans of rock and punk music, but as said, a subgroup formed and it just pear shaped from there even the music changed to be a bit more screamo.

Screamo..Green Day.heh,Screamo is not goth,yo.
For the metal players,like myself during the time,screamo=punk.Only the hair got cooler.It was the melodic metal,that came along in the advent of the double bass drum technique that was considered goth The technique has a really hard low end and hard drive that gothed out melodic metal.For the post punkers,it was players like the dudes in Concrete Blonde or Gloria Mundi..and as mentioned earlier,the Banshees.
Either way,if you werent a musician,you werent considered a true Goth.And it still holds true today for old guard .Technology /Industrial and techno changed the face of goth subculture as far as fashion.Goth music originally didnt equate to violence and angst.
They just wanted to party and dance all night..or play.The same type of fashions,as VW mentioned earlier began to take on the bio-technology aspects..

So Oceanna you would agree that Goth was highjacked?
When did goth go mainstream?Is there still a scene today? I see goth nights listed in the forums still.

I believe they were, as said so far, goths were different before. Throughout the years emos, emotional/mental issues and depression became a part of its culture. It was no longer about rocking and rolling, or partying.

As for screamo I agree its not the original rock or punk that started it all, screamo is the modern annoying thing where you cannot understand a damn thing that is being sung. Nothing beats pure rock, heavy metal is not so bad but the more extreme ones where its just load noise and nonsense is complete crap, that is what emos/goths listen to these days.

I would say not really Dab.Not so much hijacked as branched out.As far as MUSIC.Remember,the original meaning,IF you arent a musician,you arent goth.I dont care HOW you dressed.

So musically speaking you have several original branches..gothic metal,industrial goth and post punk goth..screamo.
And if someone is playing that music,they are goth.


Heres a good example of modern metal goth..

ha, that was in Vampire bloodlines but at least you can understand the lyrics and hear it clearly.

Every thing is a fad, as for goth being dead, I would say no its just in a comma brought on by the stupidity of the emo/hipster/scean kid generation.

Second verse .There is a good example of the technique I mentioned..



And another..this one from an idustrial goth band..

I apologise for the double post of the video.I will try again..Here is another example .Industrial goth using the same technique..





If you play this stuff,youre a goth musician,and in the music world,it still carries the original meaning.And I cant say that is a fad.More a style of music someof us like to play.

Wth? I will try one more time
LOL.You might think Amy Lee put goth in a coma,but her style is goth all the way.She is a goth musician.Like her or not.

i dont think its dead i am goth and there arent many where i am i feel like im the only one i am in san jose ca its interesting for me because i dress with black lipstick eyeshadow check out my portfolio i cange my forbiddens but no goth isnt dead yes there are many people who have changed goth into people thinking its colorful bright but those are punk rockers or al least thats what i call them

I agree that it originated from music, I read numerous articles on sites about the life style and origin. As for angst, poetry, suicidal...ok maybe a person has these characteristics and likes the music and fashion but so what? Just because society calls them goth doesnt mean they are necessary posers, it is society that wants to judge and label everything. I got called poser and goth because I had these characteristics, much before I knew the word goth existed, but people jump into conclusions. However I met goths and some were nice while others had a 'gothier than thou attitude i shit bats cause am goth'. But this type of behavior I saw it from other groups too. First they look at you from head to toe to check your image, then start asking questions in case your arent like them so that they ready to call you poser. Luckily now I am more selective in choosing friends and they are all different, even from me.

As for music, that is the type of goth I prefer, and the genres evolved through time like electro goth and industrial goth. Examples are Assemblage 23 and Blutengel, others include Rammstein too, even though not everyone agrees. I am more for the melodic and old school like Bauhaus, the Cure, even though they came before I was born. But nowadays I listen to many genres and not always metal or goth.

You may disagree but everything evolves and changes through time, it might also lose the original meaning and become mainstream, hated, forgotten, completly different, but that is how life works.

I happen to agree with ya there DNG,in that all things evolve.And thats pretty much what goth did.It went from just being musicians who played the music, to the people who liked the music.I think it kinda went main stream when myspace came along,as MS became a venue for all types of musicians ,and it enabled people in the industry to promote theirselves ..therefore,reaching a much wider audience.

Back in the 70s and early eighties,the muscians who played wore vintage clothing and dark clothes because they looked good onstage.
And the music was different,even though it was still rebellious.And thats what it was about..rebelling against the "norm" .and from what Im reading here,it still represents the same attitude.
Even some on this site are complaining ,so apparently,its still packin its punch.
LOL

I think I should clarify something for you DNG about the whole posure thing.You werent born yet,but I was right in the thick of it and incidently,in LA,rehearshing down on Lankershim,with guys like Rough Cutt,Ratt..and well a bunch of some of the originators of American Goth.I was with Nemesis then,and we were still hardcore,melodic metal.
Where the posure thing came about was,the musicians playing this :goth " type of music began to dress a certain way..Hell,this really began with Fleetwood Mac believe it or not..and it got to where many of the followers of the music began to do the same.And were deemed "posures" by the musicians who played the music.There is really more behind that but I will keep it short .Anyway,these guys..the posures would dress up,go down to the studios and claim"Im with the band" dressing like the musicians,and trying to get in,backstage and into the rehearsal halls.
So,fora long time there was this tension between the players of the music and its fans.

Wow glad I am learning this. In an article I remember written, that no one really knew how it started and why the label. People just wanted to play a different type of music, people wanted to listen to a different type of music, and then it was, the old school bands were being called goth because of their genre and image. Some were even called post punk back then.

Then no wonder why it evolves and changes. Generations want the difference so it happens, but the influence remains. Nowadays sub-cultures have increased, people are more free to express themselves, the music and fashion are very vast nowadays.

I wonder what genre gets played in goth clubs. In my country, the last few gothic parties i went to, most of it was electro and industrial goth, only a few times old school was played, and never melodic. The goths of today are more inclined at the industrial and electro i am for the old school and melodic even though i am of a younger generation, thus i didnt enjoy them much.

Well goths have become a subculture and splintered from the original purpose, Oceanne is wrong about one thing though, goth today is not really about being against the norm, some may say so of course but they pack together so that they can find like-minded people i.e depressed, angsty etc, those who can understand them and they don't listen to normal rock much but the kind of music which is about death and self-harming or music where the lyrics cannot be heard or understood properly.

Once upon time like the punk, they may have been about rebelling and may have been cool but that is not how they are seen now. I don't view them as abnormal or rebels because depression and emotional issues is a normal thing, however I hate them for making black and long coats uncool. Can't wear what I want without being called a goth thanks to them, black is my favorite shade and I loved my leather longcoat. Don't wear it much now.

Punks were cool not just because of their dress sense which gets stereotyped ( I never had Mohawk or colorful clothing, just a long leather duster and a anti-society attitude) but because they were upbeat and fun, their presence never made you depressed like a modern goth would. Modern Goths are not popular because of their attitudes...the whole "oh woe is me, the world sucks" makes them look like whiny bitches, and whereas punks can be social adept and charismatic such as when it came to making anarchy movements. A lot of goths today are socially inept and they are in essence, like geeks and nerds because they are the crowd you don't want to be seen with or mistaken for unless you're actually one of them.

Dabs said it good, it may have been "hijacked" since it has been changing throughout the years, now vampire wannabes are a part of it, its actually common though because a lot of subcultures start out as something else. Even the awesome punks went a bit off path, it was about being free and not being a sheep or following others, but a lot of people came to think that punks were violent thugs who vandalized. I don't mind that to be honest since that is what I am but the original purpose of not being a slave to societies and having individual freedom is more important.

To my understanding "Goth". was a person during the dark ages and it was a life style and cultural movement, still around today although not in the same way it was centuries ago.

Well yes there were another type of goths, Germans I think back in the old days.

ThexDarkness

Actually think the original goths were French.

They were an east germanic tribe and contributed to the fall of the roman empire.

Thanks for the update, I was about to look it up on wikipedia.

You are talking about the visigoths and ostrogoths who were german. On wikipedia and other links you'll find info.

I also looked up for goth sites, and re-found goth.net and gothic subculture.com and today I found blackwater.com which has a page on different definitions of goth. Interesting I used to mix clothing, and now I find a definition for them. There is also a thesis on the subculture.

Also let's not forget the gothic literature and the portrait with the old couple defined as goth.

Visigoths and the other one were branches of the goths yes. One of them sacked rome I think.

I forgot about goth literature. And who hasn't sacked Rome at one time or another? lol

You can google it :) Now lets keep the thread about the sub- culture please, because that is the original question, lets not go off topic. Yes the visigoths and ostrogoths existed, but that is part of history not the "modern" subculture as we know it.

The first post does not really specify 'Modern Subculture" If it does then I missed it. In keeping with the topic as it pertains: goth well modern goth is a trend that has it's up and downs you see it more in television shows such as "Ncis" and even might say the newest remake of the television series "The Munsters" Also in the music industry with bands such as "My chemical Romance".

I am not a Goth nor have I ever been. I am before that whole subculture came into being. I do know they are intertwined within the vampire subculture although it is not a given that all in the vampire subculture are Goth just for the sake of dress and vice versa. They all wear dark clothing for the most part if they are at activities and some all the time. For the most part though they are like anyone else and wear whatever they like. I don't like the term "poser and wannabe" very well because it is a judgment that often isn't correct. I naturally like dark clothing but red is my favorite color. I have been told by Goths that some of them wear white. The thing is that most clubs that the vampire subculture goes to will either be Goth or Fetish. There are very few clubs around that are labeled vampire clubs but just known to have those that identify as such that way. There are many who are around from the beginnings and some I know who lived in the San Francisco area where they were called Death Rockers. As each generation mingles in there are changes in all of these cultures that are separate but intermix. A lot of it has to do with interests, music and lifestyle. But they are still alive and well and evolving. I use to do the entertainment and event section of the GraveYard Press and there are Goth clubs all over the world and special festivals that exist. Many groups rent out a club on their dark night to offer the Goth activity. As far as vintage dress, that comes and goes. Kids were into that when I was in High School in the 60s. It didn't have to do with music but a fad to wear vintage things. I think that has always existed for a long time but it ebbs and flows so to speak.

Goth isn't dead in my opinion.. But I do think the "original gothic forbidden/persona has kind of dissentigrated. Or at the very least it's kind of broken don into other categories so to speak. Goth was always really more about being independent and not following the grain; once it became "cool" to be goth, it just wasn't the same.. So now we have punk and emo forbiddens.. I think the closest you could probably find to what I remember as truly goth these days is mor likely to be found in the metalhead area, though. Still standing out, but not because they try to, or because it's popular to do, but because of the music they listen to.

You said it.It is about the muic .

Always has been.
I thought about your question a bit more Dabs, and have concluded that maybe yes,out of the box,it was hijacked.But that was inevitble because It was just one of these things that had/has the potential to support several evolving subcultures and lots of tastes in fashion,music and lifestyle.

Everything gets hijacked when it becomes popular it seems. Generations grow, others get born, subcultures increase, do you ever notice that lately the old is getting popular and the anti mainstreem is becoming the mainstream? As well as words getting different meanings, like the original goths (the germans) then the term started as music and thus a subculture. And it remains us wondering what it has become hehe.

You know something DNG? From where I was,it seemed that everyone was having the same idea at once..in effect.

"Goth isn't dead in my opinion.. But I do think the "original gothic forbidden/persona has kind of dissentigrated. Or at the very least it's kind of broken don into other categories so to speak. Goth was always really more about being independent and not following the grain; once it became "cool" to be goth, it just wasn't the same.. So now we have punk and emo forbiddens.. I think the closest you could probably find to what I remember as truly goth these days is mor likely to be found in the metalhead area, though. Still standing out, but not because they try to, or because it's popular to do, but because of the music they listen to."

Indeed, original definitions and meanings disappear or become pushed back by newer generations.

Punk is not new though, it predates goth. Punk started in 1970s though garage rock of the mid 1960s became retroactively known as punk rock and a lot of garage rock then was known as protopunk, music started to become punk around 1974.
Earliest usage of the term goth in music was 1979 Emo is more modern however.

Punk sadly became stereotyped as well and may have lost its original meaning which was for individual freedom. Most people think punks are merely violent thugs with no purpose and some modern "punks" are nothing but gangs with no purpose, though it should be said that punks are not just left wings, they do encompass a lot of political sides, the neo-nazis for example were extreme right wingers though racism does not exactly give them a nice image.

The "type" of punk I am or was, is a nihilist/anarchist, so violence, thuggery behavior and not caring about the world or anything was pretty much just part of that "type" or at least me, but free will was still an important issue and while amusement was gained through it, it was also about not bowing down to the world or society. Not all anarchists were violent either mind you. some were just protesters or making fashion statements but combine anarchy and chaos with nihilism and then it makes things more interesting.

As well as mixing subcultures. Like hippiegoth, tribalgoth, some even define themselves as punkgoths and emogoths. It is also a popular belief that goth means being an individualist, but if a group of individualists get together and become a subculture does the idea of individualism get lost?

I like many things considered Goth including music and fashion, and have always been an outsider even here. However I never lived a lifestyle just to follow a stereotype and that's what I think ruins everything:when people say they like and do things to be part of a subculture and follow a stereotype, and that is why the labels.

"It is also a popular belief that goth means being an individualist, but if a group of individualists get together and become a subculture does the idea of individualism get lost?"

Very good question, if you look, act and dress the same as others then you are not really an individual but part of the sheep flock.

So I say yes, it does get lost and buried too, if you consider the newer "traits" that were brought in by newer gens.
Example, people say old goths were about music, today's goths like to get together and hang around in a corner and being depressive, moan about life and get picked on for being uncool. Yes that is a stereotype and I know not every single one is like that but think about this, how does one become stereotyped in the first place? because those modern goth traits are very common. Its like punks, punk has a variety of traits and movements but its the dyed Mohawks and ripped denim that is mostly brought up all the time or thought about when one mention punk.

It was punk that was about individualism as personal freedom was a must have, its possible that the early goths may have had some belief in that too. You are also right that some subcultures became hybridized and made even more subcultures.

Thex, you're right. I wasn't meaning to say that Punk was new, however that it was 'newer' than goth. And that it has however become the newer, more mainstream, "goth." Those who don't associate with "Goths," tend to refer to all the little subcatergories now as Goth or Emo, although there truly are alot more punks rather than goths.

And To whoever pinpointed from my comment (I suck for not remembering your name, sorry, it's 3am and was a long night at work) but yes, it truly is about the music. That's where the punk forbidden cam from, along with emo and a ton of other forbiddens.

But this whole forrum no has me wanting to do research on where goth forbidden truly started and when, because *nerd* I actually remember reading in a history class that it all spawned from the gothic architecture and dealt with religion (I believe) and there was much more behind gothic forbidden than just music... (Off to nerd it up and look into all of this now))

Punk actually predates goth, goth started in music in 1979, while punk around 1974 though some music such as garage rock was retroactively called punk rock.

Earliest goth were the tribe that came involved with the fall of the roman empire, the goths there were also known as Visigoths, there was another name too but it escapes me at the moment.

The earliest goths in music was 1979, I am not sure what you mean by saying there are more punks than goths because in my point of view punk has mainly or completely died out, there is a lot of wannabes or thugs who think being a punk means wearing ripped clothes and having mohawks (which its not, punk was about being free among other things) so maybe you were seeing them, also some goth have taken some old stereotyped punkish forbiddens, though obviously in their color, someone here called them punkgoths.

What is more modern for certain is emos, though they seem to be part of goths for the most part and regardless if goth was ever cool or not before, the whole new depressive, death obsesses and angst thing has certainly made modern goths uncool and stereotyped.

"however that it was 'newer' than goth. And that it has however become the newer, more mainstream, "goth." "

I was going to address that statement myself Darkness,but you said it perfectly.
I will add a little about emos and screamos though..The screamo came about through the SK8ters who wanted to listen to music that set their ballz on fire and enabled them to leap off buildings in a single bound while they were sk8ing..

And the music the skaterbois were playing reflected their anger towards everyone because tt of places and they were always getting ticketed ,kicked out and arrested for skating all the good spots..ie: other people's property.
They started playing music about it.

the same music was, and is heavy on dating drama to, most Emo boys hate girls because girls break up with angst ridden boys, so the music reflects this.

It's not dead. I know quite alot of true goth types. They're amazing; I've always admired the music, but I'm more rocknroll and reckless. =P

lol trust me, punk hasnt died out. We actually had a... I'll call it, "Gangfight" in my HS back in 08 because thePunks were pissed that people referred to them as 'emo.' was interesting.

In terms of fashion amd music, Goth will remain. It may go through some transformations, but it won't disappear. I recall when it was big throughout the 80's, then again in the mid-90's.

I think the fashion just became mundane, and when those who simply wanted the image to be shocking realized that it became excepted fashion left the scene.

"lol trust me, punk hasnt died out. We actually had a... I'll call it, "Gangfight" in my HS back in 08 because thePunks were pissed that people referred to them as 'emo.' was interesting."

It would be good to see us punks rise again but mystic, were they really punks?
As I have said above, having mohawks, denim and ripped or plaid clothing does not make a punk and neither does smashing stuff up. Punks were about not bowing down to society and having personal freedom. I myself was part of the nihilist/anarchy type. I don't know how a person can call a true punk an emo lol because emos are called emos for a reasons, emotional problems. Most Punks were upbeat and charismatic, not depressed or angst ridden.


@Dabbler, its goths (the depressed, angsty stereotype versions) wearing black is what made me hate them as I liked wearing black, its annoying when people mistake someone cool for a modern goth, as for a their fashion, well I don't see how walking around with for example; collars and leather straps is accepted or normal yet, in fact they become a target for bulling then.

Its not just or truly the wearing black that annoyed me since a lot of people wore black and it never bothered me, its that those that did wear black were the stereotypes and thus it became uncool and wearing black especially with a long leather coat which I used to wear, became a bad combination and got me mistaken for a goth numerous times, well at least they got a good ko punch for their mistake.

Its funny really, I never used care about what people thought about fashion forbidden as that was part of the punk thing but that was because punks were never thought of as uncool, just as hooligans or thugs at worst, so when the black wearing goths became weird, depressed and death obsessed, no self-respecting individual would want to be associated with or mistaken for goths (only like minded people) and so we avoided stuff that was once cool but now is considered "goth" such as rock hair and long coats because they stole them into their subculture and made it uncool.

Punks may not have always been liked by other people but punks were not often bullied since there was a lot of tough guys/gals in the movement and a lot of us were feared, which is what gave way to the stereotype of punks being vandals and thugs. Goths and emos, however, are usually quite weak and are picked on all the time. They are simply darker versions of nerds/geeks that was in schools.

the Goth culture seems to be very much alive and kicking especially with all the pictures that are around which means there is still a big market

Yes but is that the original goth? or the ones that everyone sees today that are full of depressed or angsty emos and vampire wannabes?

As I pointed out earlier ,original goths were muscians..

Now it is everyone and anyone who wants to partake..in any of its forms ,which,over time have evolved.
I love the goth,steampunk fashion and hair,and whether anyone else wants to go there,no matter what their emotional or artitic preffs are,thats fine by me .
If I want to wear black,Im gonna wear it.I dont care if a thousand other peeps happen to be wearing black that day.

This whole colour thing that some seem to be so hung up on. This isnt the
Crypts or Bloods people.

As I pointed out oceanne, its not so much the color thing, its the attitudes and behavior of the goths while wearing black and thus black and those traits become stereotyped and merged, one can't go around wearing black much these days without someone calling out "goth" or "emo".

At the some time one can't express a negative feeling, be sentimental, rant, rebel against society norms and express love for someone or hearthtake without getting called emo, especially if they are teenagers, especially if they like gothic clothing and art. At the same time one can't like gothic literature, art and paganism without being called wannabe or "you're doing it for the fad." That is what happened to me with the difference that 10 years ago it was goth the label not emo. The funny thing is, that those who labeled me did things for shocking value and now are all clean and normal because they are dominated by their partner and look down on the rest, or else are my same age and always looking down on teens because now they feel mature and grown up, they forgot what they were in their teens! You can do nothing without being judged. I believe everyone has the right to do and be whatever they want, even a wannabe or depressed. The wannabe will stop after the phase has passed. The depressed should be helped instead of emarginated, no wonder the amount of suicides that continue to happen, and they are not always done by teens or emos, or goths. If it is said for attention, then still they should be helped, attention is a cry for help, some times someone just wants to be heard rather than always emarginated. I excuse myself for getting off topic, but I felt the need to take it off my chest.

My unluck was that I happened to have a not so happy life, so I had to be rebel and angsty, I liked corsets and black clothing before they got popular but since corsets and checked clothing started to be found in shops because they were in fashioned, I was labeled wannabe. It is unfair but at the same time I ask, and so? Don't all teenagers go through fads, don't many people buy expensive clothing to follow fashion? Why that is acceptable? Because it is the norm. Yet even being dressed in pink you get the lable. I know people who call others gay or dumpblondes if they are in pink, yet they get pissed off if it is others who label them because they are in black.

If because I rebeled towards my parents, like to create fashion, like gothic things, listen to unpopular music makes me a goth then be it, and if the music, fashion and the clubs are still around then long live goth!

As a Goth, it will not die unless people allow it to. I always refer nervous parents of Goths to the YouTube video series "Gothic Charm School" by Ms. Jillian Venters, to assauge their fears. Personally I would fancy seeing more people of colour into Goth as well, as there are sp few of us in the world. In fact I have a Member Page with the videos there. Take a look.

"At the some time one can't express a negative feeling, be sentimental, rant, rebel against society norms and express love for someone or hearthtake without getting called emo"

I agree here since nearly everyone can be sentimental and ranty and rebellious, this does not make them emo. What makes an emo is not just moaning about stuff, its their emotional and mental issues, they self harm often and listen to music about it, in extreme cases they commit suicide and make suicide pacts with others which I say good riddance, they are not worth the billion of cells within them.

Emos are not rebels, they are angsty idiots with bad haircuts who may or may not want attention.
True rebels whether they have a cause or not, truly believe in what they do and don't do it out of simple angst or emotional issues or attention but because they want to or feel they need to.

Being a rebel does not make you a goth or a punk and certainly not an emo as all the latter does is just stand around with others like them and moan about things. To be a rebel, you need to be against something and not be just simply "different" i.e others countries have different rules and society but they are not rebels to each other unless they are absolutely against them. To be punk, rebelling was not the only thing about them, it was in combination with certain forbiddens, music and behavior.

So you would only be considered a modern goth or emo if you had the "attitude and behavior" of them, wearing a certain forbidden or shade would not automatically make you one, though you would be called it. Hell if I were to wear black clothes, some asshole will likely make a comment in the street though it would not make me a goth because I am not. Its the behavior and attitude that makes someone who they are.

Punks were rebels not because of their forbidden (though some did do it just to avoid looking like others and being a sheep or to make a statement) or taste in music or even because they were different to others but because of their intentions and actions , the anarchy and other liberal movements were an example. Anyone can be a rebel but self harming is not really rebellious, its just stupid and pathetic.

The punk was about individual freedom, they pretty much invented their own forbidden too though a certain forbidden did get stereotyped. Goths however did not have such originality, they simply took forbiddens and made it theirs with a gothic twist, example, long leather coats, chains and spikes/studs and fingerless gloves were punk first, now they part of the goth wardrobe.

No need to apologize for the rant either lol feel free to let it out anytime.

What kind of goth are you mel? old school or the goths that are full of emos and vampire wannabes?

From what some have said, old school goths were merely into rock music and had maybe a certain forbidden, modern goth however....we all know them and its stereotyped.

Its always been that way,Darkness.
Its forefather Punk was all about doing what you want and not giving a rats ass what anbody thought.

Now,encompasses a lot of different subtypes who change it just a little bit more to suit their own ideas of what it is during THEIR lifetime.
If some make the mistake of marking someone as Goth just cause they wear black?
So what.Once it changed from its original meaning,there was no going back.So it didnt matter anymore.

I never cared what people thought before and I still don't really but goths are so uncool these days, its like an insult to be called one, us punks were cool and I miss the good old days, I am very aware of the changes oceanne, and I accept them because that is is chaos and I am all about chaos but it does not mean I have to like all of them. Change is inevitable and a side effect of some individuality but its not individualism if the majority have the same forbidden and attitude.

Punk was about doing what you want yes, old school goths? not so sure since I was never one of them and I did not care to study them, I liked to do my own thing. Modern goths are not about being different though or making a statement or trying to get freedom, they simply like to be in each other's company so they can be "understood".

As I said oceanne, its not merely the fashion that is the problem since they were our forbiddens first, its their attitude. By messing up the forbidden by making it a trademark of perpetual frowners, they mess up us or those who simply like black. when someone says goth to me, its a reminder of how we or I (since not all punks wore black) got hijacked, old goth maybe tolerable but being mistaken for a suicidal frowner? ha no thank you, not fun. lol

Its a good example really of how people see the modern era of subcultures and not the glorious past or the origins of them, hell wearing all black is not even punk but just a shade, however, its not to most people these days as to them its something a goth would wear. My "punk" outfit was a long leather duster and a bandana. I wore my duster today as well but I was wearing lighter clothing, not to be a stereotype myself but my damn shirt was torn apart...wore it anyway. XD

Goth is music and it will never die, like all this it is in a constant state of flux. One thing remains consistent throughout the evolution of the music and that is the over all emotion behind it. The feelings this genre evoke are that of pain and discord, being expressed in the extremes of the emotional spectrum. The music is truly a beauty to behold.

I'm a little surprised to see how much attention this thread has received, kinda cool.

The history of "goth" is inextricably connected to music, and to me there is no debating that.

I've seen the phrase "goth was about not conforming to society" or variations of it several times. It strikes me as a bit of a contradiction. In the same way that tattoos partially began as nonconformity (or conforming to a select group), so too do nearly all subcultures - develop a different set of standards, music, fashion etc to separate themselves from the mainstream.

The problem is goth/punk etc became a part of mainstream. Much of the music, fashion, stories and future generations of those things evolved it, slowly turning in to a spectrum. On one side you've got the hardcore, real lifestyles who were 'born' goth in 1982 to the fans of Twilight. (don't get mad at me, from an ethnological perspective you're all part of the same larger group!)

Joining a group in order to be an individual is, to put it bluntly, illogical and rather silly.

Nearly all subcultures end up changing, being co-opted, and invariably being incorporated into the fringes of mainstream society and the fringes of that subculture becomes part of the center of mainstream (ie Twilight, Buffy, Depeche Mood).

The emotional desire that fed into the formation of goth is not dead because that emotion is ubiquitous in all of us, but the goth of 1986, 1995, 2000...that's gone.

If you want to express your individuality, be yourself. If you want to be a part of a group that will one day *be* mainstream, then get a tattoo, become a hipster, or wear black pants (which btw arguably have always been mainstream).

Well put xavier, Individualism is about being your own person and being unique, this is where all subcultures eventually fail at.
Goths are really not unique these days, stereotypes happen when something becomes trite and common.

I never really had to "join" the punks, I was already one by virtue of my personality, my beliefs, taste in music, behavior and attitude, I did get more involved eventually through the music and many movements etc but I always had my own personal goal and forbidden.

I was nihilistic and an anarchist but whereas the others of the same movement (the anarchists) just wanted change and more differences, my view was that the world needed to be "rebooted", destroyed and then rebuilt, doing so would rid the world of the governments or at least some of them.
Punks were cool when it was kind of tribal and not so large. when it became too common, it started to get stereotyped especially a certain image. This thread has made me a little nostalgic now. lol

Its a common problem that when an idea of individuality becomes popular, it stops being about individualism because then everyone is pretty much the same more or less, I am not entirely different here as I plan on building a coven and clan on an idea but unlike the subcultures, I would encourage my members to take what they need and go their own way rather than simply going along with the same thing.

Thats because we are all individualists to some extent.
;)

That is true oceanne, a lot of folks have an idea but there are plenty of times when it can be the same idea as someone' else's, I guess a true individual who is unique and completely different to others is less common than we thought.

I think it is called recombinant conceptualization.
And I agree with you, in that to be REALLY different is quite rare.

One way or the other Goth is a sort of concept that created an artistic movement and, due to the flourishing of the vampire genre lately, is more alive then ever... err and is still a sort of "dead"... more like undead :P

:D

LOL Dragon.Nice post.

I dont feel Goth is dead at all.Its too main stream now.

This thread has been automatically closed for length.