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Persecution vs Indifference
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dabbler
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21:28:34 Apr 17 2014
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Persecution vs Indifference

While some Alternative beliefs were once hardly persecuted this is becoming rarer, and rarer. The more common reaction to alternative beliefs is indifference. People are just not astonished by alternative beliefs, they have come to except them. Thou I agree there are still ill tempered groups that crusade against such beliefs.

So my question is.

With this in mind. Why are those who follow alternative beliefs always so defensive, and edgy about their beliefs, and there role in society?

When will those with alternative beliefs correct the masses to disarm the stereotypes?




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MadScientist
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23:39:21 Apr 17 2014
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Excerpt from Holysmoke.org/tolerate.htm

"If someone's religion "does not break your bones or pick your pocket," you are ethically and morally obligated to LEAVE THEM ALONE and thus tolerate them. It costs you nothing to do so, and it is wrong to do otherwise."

It is not uncommon to see those with alternative beliefs accuse those with other beliefs, or no beliefs of being intolerant. While there is intolerance. There is seldom the degree of intolerance as some alternative believers would have people believe.

I suspect that a number of claimed believers in alternative beliefs, are in it for the wrong reason. Like they only want to incite reactions in those friends, family, and peers.



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MadScientist
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23:51:28 Apr 17 2014
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Here's why believers should accept indifference over persecution.
Excerpt from Holysmoke article, I wanted to include in the previous post.

Reasons for intolerance:

"SPIRITUAL COMPETITION. The worse offenders against religious tolerance are members and leaders of competing religions. This is a shame, as those who are religious bigots have failed to understand the fact that to be accepted themselves, they must accept others. There are many reasons why people belong to the religions they do: the chief one being geography and familial tradition. If they are happy with their religion, and if they harm no one, there is no reason to object to their choice of spirituality."



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Caliban
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02:07:17 Apr 18 2014
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Being edgy about who I am is a part of it.. I am not defensive about how I choose to look or act, but the edge is there.

I guess having to deals with so many stupid comments and such dealing with how they look is why people are edgy. They sort of expect that it may happen every time they go out in public.

If you expect a strange look every time you go out in public, you might have an edge on you as well.



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Caliban
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02:12:29 Apr 18 2014
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Damn, I took it all about being about looks.

Those with beliefs that may not be known by all or even accepted with much explanation are most likely edgy due to misunderstandings..

Christianity, Buddhism, and all major religions aren't even common knowledge taught, you have to go research it, unless you've been raised in a family of such belief.

Trying to tell somebody about how aliens created humanity and that your God is Marduk and he visits everytime his planet aligns with earth would be something you can't really explain to just anyone.. And, you see why I don't say anything.

That's just me; I'm edgy about it because I realize how ridiculous it sounds. I don't really care if anyone else believes, it's my belief.

As for others, I'm guessing they usually expect ridicule or ignorance..

Then there are the others that take a certain vanity in being of a discrete religion or belief... There are a lot of stuck up types that would love to believe their beliefs make them better than everything else, thus shun them.



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TigerMoon
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05:18:16 Apr 18 2014
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I do not know. I have always thought alternative beliefs were elitist. I guess it's for a good reason. For some it is a growing-up phase. I guess it is just the stigma attached to some alternative beliefs. People fear what they do not understand. Fear is a universal response. We just have to stand up for something. Otherwise life would be utterly empty and without substance.



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TigerMoon
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05:20:20 Apr 18 2014
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Besides, I do not really care what the masses think. I definitely do not "pretty things up" for people. You just have to take the good with the bad. I would rather stereotypes remain as they are. Society just needs to grow itself around that.



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dabbler
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05:35:20 Apr 18 2014
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But what about educating society? If one seeks to be accepted isn't a certain amount of educating reasonable? What if people aren't fearing, but just jaded, and indifferent. To many take such lack of reaction to their beliefs as offensive.



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TigerMoon
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07:48:22 Apr 18 2014
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There is a fine line between educating and justifying oneself. I see no reason to justify myself. Everything - at least the majority of the information - is out there. Be it online or otherwise. If an individual is genuinely curious and wishes to learn, there is always a respectful way to ask. Ask and ye shall be given. Some people just want an excuse to start trouble. So, I do not really care much.



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NikkiAidyn
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16:43:27 Apr 18 2014
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I agree with Lordess on this.

Those with the discrete sets of beliefs collected their information and learned to know what they know. They don't want to just teach everything that they've studied -sometimes years- to learn.

It's not even all about that, it's the fact that most people don't want to learn beyond what they have in their heads as set fact.

It's stunning how many people I've actually tried to get to read some of my books that will open your mind, just to have them deny. Some people don't want to learn and when we actually find those that do, it's like coming across buried treasure.



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dabbler
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00:27:10 Apr 19 2014
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But can't you see that not all who don't care to learn are hostile to the belief? Isn't it too extreme to expect people to subscribe to, or make allowances for every belief? People who avow themselves as open minded, and declare "Anyt5hing is possible." Need to eventually except that there are so many contradictions in such thinking if one doesn't refrain from believing everything. So one persons disbelief may be a product of the teaching from another belief. Which means in their opinion, by their indoctrination, your belief is either unimportant, or worse detrimental to their belief.

So allow me to update the question.

Would you prefer Indifference from other Non-Believers, and Believers from other beliefs, or Persecution?



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TigerMoon
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03:50:43 Apr 19 2014
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The thing about alternative beliefs is that they do not claim to be the "one right way". Like I said, I could not care less what other's mindsets are to a particular alternative belief, though there is a saying, "The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference." I would prefer indifference.



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Sangreas
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10:54:52 Apr 19 2014
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In religious cases indifference is always better than persecution.Look at the story of Mary,Queen of Scots and Elizabeth I.Real life example



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deathnitegrl
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16:24:28 Apr 19 2014
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It depends where you are. It's easy to say that people are not that shocked that there are alternate beliefs besides Catholicism if you live in country like America, but I live in a country where anything that is not Catholic is considered the devil, and if you don't live the standard conformist life forbidden, you're either living in sin, or you're an abnormal being. Thus I almost never say that I'm Agnostic and like to read about other religions. It depends on the situation and with who I am. With my family and at work it's completely taboo. With friends I'm open, but whenever I meet someone new, I don't always look friendly simply because I don't agree with their beliefs and I say it bluntly. They look at me shocked and they frown too. Location and culture effect people too.



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dabbler
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02:26:05 Apr 20 2014
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I am with you DNG, There are serious issues presented to those with Alt beliefs in other countries. This is why I address the issue. I want those here in the states to see how goos we have it (in a manner) compared to foreign religious freedom. Too many believe religious freedom, means acceptance, and subscription.



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deathnitegrl
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08:43:57 Apr 20 2014
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Yeah and where I am it's not even the worst. At least I'm in Europe, in other parts of the world, you really taste persecution.



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dabbler
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08:51:29 Apr 20 2014
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Most of the persecution I hear off from people is contrived. It is also often clearly obvious that the persons grasp of the doctrines is infantile at best.



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markus666
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17:47:51 Apr 20 2014
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For Some, the believe of others, can harm the Ego of Some. Everything come to EGO. Most of those "some", can not tolerate that another person is believing something that is not their believe, and then, the rumors and talk start, and at the end, persecution is the final chapter. Psychologically speaking, if every human mind their own business, we will be living in a pure world. but, that is not the case and never be because the Ego of some.



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Existentialism
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08:53:07 Apr 21 2014
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Mostly, one is met with indifference or disbelief. This can only be overcome by mounting Logic and fact.
Why?
I will answer that with a Question. Is it better to have a fear of the unknown or continue on a Path of self destruction?



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EstrangedOne
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08:39:44 Apr 23 2014
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Though I won't fault 'Dabbler' for his own statement and question in the matter, I will say this much about it all (and yes, 'Caliban'; this is also somewhat of my response to your own statements on the matter)--

Unfortunately, though LESS of the persecution is there, it does still remain. While, ordinarily, one would be proud to declare their own faith/belief, there are still those who would persecute them for it, and thus they remain "in the closet", so to speak.

Whilst some, myself included, (and please, excuse my language) don't really give a damn what others think about their own faith/belief (and yes, I am also very open to what others would believe. However, though I respect the beliefs of others, there may be some parts of said belief(s) that I don't care for), there are still some people in this world, whom unfortunately, don't take well to them. Though our faiths/beliefs do not harm or lead us to harm others, there are still - and likely always will be - 'fanatics' of other such beliefs, whom not only scorn those like myself, or even those who technically share the same faith/belief, but they sometimes even go so far as to actively seek out such people, merely for the sake of persecuting them. One of these said such 'people of faith' happens to be those who consider themselves to be "Westboro Baptist Church" - of which, though considered to be a "church", is quite literally nothing more than a widespread hate group (i.e., unless you are part of THEIR "church", alone, they will do whatever they can to essentially 'kill' you (and I do mean that both figuratively and in the literal sense)).

Now, personally, I will openly state that, though I don't care what others think of my own 'faith/belief', I don't necessarily walk around, telling people what it is that I believe in, because I know that not many people will understand it. Granted, I know that I'm not persecuted for my own 'faith', but I also know that some people still don't have the strength or understanding to grasp it - one thing that tells me this is when people are actively trying to 'convert' me to their belief. Such a thing usually tends to show only how weak another person is, and thus they cling to it, like a security blanket (again, pardon my crudity of expression, there).
As an example (herein being part of my response to your statement, 'Caliban'), by my appearance, alone... most people, for some reason, ASSUME that I am either Satanist, Luciferian, or that I 'dabble' in the Dark Arts/"Black Magic". But few of them consider the fact that I'm just not one to dress as they would. I prefer my somewhat 'darker' appearance, because it's what I feel comfortable in. However, I have also had a few people, here and there, mistake me for being Christian, because, even through my "dark" appearance, when I approach someone in need of help or support, I'll often reach out, and give them My idea of a 'blessing', and I'll walk away, with that.

Now, mind you, I'm neither Satanist, nor Christian. I don't worship "God" or the Devil. But I also don't 'practice' the Dark Arts. Though I do believe in "God" and the Devil, both, I don't worship either one. To be honest, I don't "worship" any entity/deity. However, due to the notion that I'm also not a praying man... when I DO pray for someone or something, then it's obvious that whatever or WHOMEVER I pray for does mean allot to me. Hence, my own 'prayer' is my way of attempting to reach out, to help them in a way that doesn't make it so obvious, but they still know that I'm there. (Bearing in mind that I was once a Christian, but I was Scourged - both literally and metaphorically - by the 'faith'. Thus, I no longer follow Christianity, nor do I worship "God" or the Devil. But this is beside the point.)

Now, most people, understandably, are bound to ask an "odd" question or two. Sometimes more than that, even. and though there is a difference between Persecution and Indifference... to be perfectly technical, the line between the two is fairly thin, really. I have personally been shown both Indifference AND Persecution, though not often for my 'faith/belief', but for other things, instead.
Unfortunately, for some people, though they may be proud of their own 'faiths', the fact remains that for however lessened a show of 'persecution' may be, it is still there, if you are a person of one 'faith', who happens to be in the wrong place - particularly "at the wrong time".

This is one reason that I just don't talk about what My 'faith' happens to be, because though I can read people like a book, there are still those who may come along, who aren't quite so accepting, or even 'indifferent' about it. Consider it as somewhat of a thing similar to why I remain in the 'shadows' of society.
I'm simply "Just That Different", that people either don't understand me very well... or they simply don't want to. Thus, I stay away from most people. That goes for religion, spirituality, even so far as how people appear - even if it's caused by a genetic difference.

All in all, though, yes, there is more 'Indifference' shown, these days, there is still also the 'persecution' that some people will actively make apparent, through their actions. This is another reason that someone like myself isn't often seen, amongst most people, even when and if we may be heard about once or twice.
In short of it, the point is that people judge before they see. This is no different from "Leaping Before You Look". If you don't "look before you leap", then you're likely to find out that there's a deep 'pit of pain below your feet'.


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TigerMoon
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10:04:43 Apr 23 2014
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I have to agree. There is just so much unnecessary pain caused. I feel that not everyone who claim alternative belief enjoy the benefits of it. There are always three sides to a story. Your perception, my perception and their perception. Life is not a popularity contest, yet there are many who treat it as such. It may sound "cool", but for some like myself, it is just a way of life. I really do not mind being picked out for being different. There is not much shame left, to be honest. I would still prefer indifference over persecution. Persecution is just too violent for me.



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dabbler
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14:55:58 Apr 23 2014
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Yet persecution is not always violent. Like when a mother faces losing her daughter in a divorce because she is Wicca. It is that ignorance that needs to be confronted by Wicca proponents.. If that is Wicca seeks to become more mainstream.



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deathnitegrl
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19:29:20 Apr 23 2014
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Tell me about it! Where I live you could also lose your job.



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dabbler
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05:05:58 Apr 24 2014
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Not as serious as losing ones job but still noteworthy. A recent case in New Jersey.

http://www.nj.com/cumberland/index.ssf/2014/04/new_jersey_woman_files_lawsuit_over_atheist_license_plate.html



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Existentialism
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It seems Wicca is not being respected due to a lack of proof and ignorance on the part of the Public.

What is needed is a demonstration, this reminded me of a Popular Film where a tall man dressed all in black said...

"I find your lack of faith in the force disturbing commander"

The man in black then ~Psi~ throttled him.



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FatherPhantom
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02:07:30 Apr 27 2014
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It is inevitable that you're going to find someone who doesn't agree with your belief. The most beautiful thing about religious freedom is also the most dangerous thing. It's up to you to do the spiritually mature thing, and show respect, and tolerance, even if you're faced with persecution.



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MadScientist
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04:56:06 Apr 27 2014
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While we can ignore, and counter some aspects of persecution. We must indeed stand up to anything that would harm, or steal from us. Debate for example is not persecution. If one is offended by a persons reasons why they are not compelled by your beliefs, then perhaps you are placing a sad amount of priority on that belief. Fundamentalist tend to lead the charge into persecuting anyone not of their beliefs. Yet I seriously think that if people ignored these wack jobs, that they would tire and retire from crusading. They literally fuel themselves off the retort, and counter protest. It is kind of like "What if you held a bon fire.. with no wood?"



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Existentialism
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08:37:40 Apr 27 2014
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Mmm...reminds me of an interview with Larry Ellison on CNN.

Rather amusing discussion between him and Charlie Rose, they were discussing the targetting of specific groups using technology.

Larry was very clear, America was built on the premise that people are free to believe in what they wish to without fear of persecution or targetting. They do, they are, Wicca is being targetted as are other alternative beliefs.

It seems our governments have conveniently forgotten that part of the constitution.

Over to you Larry, you said "For me, that would be a step too far"

Over to you Charlie Rose, or are their Paths your Master forbid you to tread?

It is high time the conventional faiths answered for their crimes.



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MadScientist
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11:48:29 Apr 27 2014
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As far as the agenda goes for some established faith it is obvious when they cry that they are not allowed to pray, or preach in schools, yet with the same brush try to deny alternate beliefs something as simple as a lunch time club. Like LGTG clubs, or an Atheist Think Club. I remember when school pledge of allegiance was alternative, and my mom mentioned prayer was once practiced at her school, student that opted not to participate had to be dismissed from the class.. I think that is backwards, it should be those who opt to should go outside to carry on. Established faiths don't want equality for faiths, beliefs, and non-beliefs, they want exemption to tyrannical controlling morality, based on their self righteous interpretation of what their deity, or ideals dictate. I always thought it funny how churches want so much control in schools yet they won't even pay taxes to build schools. yet expecting benefits that effect their rights in class, and on campuses.


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dabbler
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15:38:22 Apr 27 2014
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An example of how certain organized crime rings use the cry of "we're being persecuted to defend fraud.

from the following source.http://holysmoke.org/keene.htm

"To make my renunciation of mediumship complete, I knew there were other things I yet had to do. Seeking out a Masonic friend, I poured forth to him the whole story. At my request he went with me to the authorities. I turned myself in to the Internal Revenue Service for evasion of income tax. (I eventually paid all back taxes in full.) I also visited the FBI, the county sheriffs office, and the state attorney-general. To all these I made full confession of my years of fraud.
"No police investigation of any medium was launched as a result of my action nor, to my knowledge, did the Internal Revenue Service look into the matter of mediumistic bookkeeping. One reason for official reluctance to do anything may be an exaggerated concept of religious liberty. Apparently the last thing a public official in this country wants is for some sect like the spiritualists to scream bloody murder about religious persecution. At any rate, whatever the reason, the mediums continue unmolested.

"As a matter of fact, my former partner is doing better than ever[....]"

© M. Lamar Keene, the world's greatest spirit medium. Quoted from pg. 153, The Psychic Mafia, 1997, Prometheus Books 1-57392-161-0.



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Owlish
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08:22:27 Jun 22 2014
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Depends on what is being persecuted as to why they react so defensively. LGBT seem to be defensive because they're legitimately threatened in more than a handful of nations around the world - simply being who they are can be a death sentence - literally. There's also the stereotypes and stigma that are associated with being gay, bisexual or a transvestite. They also want equal marriage rights, so it's no wonder why they feel strongly - they want to be bound by law to the person they love.

With religion... eh.



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