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Belief vs. existence
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Morlock333
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17:12:34 Sep 07 2007
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Just looking for your thought on this statement/ question..

If belief determines existance, do you think that once in existance does change/lack of belief destroy that which was created...333




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Wolfsbohne
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17:15:56 Sep 07 2007
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It would be difficult to not believe yourself to exist but if you choose not to believe in the existence of other things, your subconcious would replace that void with another object.



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cadrewolf
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17:18:46 Sep 07 2007
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Depends on the belief, for as many can state many beliefs from our past have remained even due to the lack of proof. Vampires, lycanthropes, lost ark , cup of christ, spear of destiny, big foot and lochness. even tho some believe that their is no solid proof, many factors have kept these a live and searched for. while others have gone with the wind. belief makes them into existance and peoples belief keeps the stories alive.



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Wolfsbohne
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17:20:19 Sep 07 2007
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Yeah except that big foot is real.



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andaluz
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17:34:49 Sep 07 2007
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A do think that belief helps interpret and even create things, so in some sense the lack of belief has an affect on existence to some extent. At least for that individual.



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Aoibheal
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17:36:24 Sep 07 2007
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IMO, once you *believe* something into existence it will always be. Even if you don't use it for a period of time, when you go back to it or have need of it again ...there it is!



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Morlock333
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17:48:41 Sep 07 2007
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about bigfoot ect... if no-one in the world believed in these things they would not exsist...



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Wolfsbohne
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18:13:48 Sep 07 2007
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I believe this discussion is an extension of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis which suggests that a persons thoughts are limited by his/her ability to speak - or rather that language frames our reality. But then this begs the question of which came first, the chicken or the egg.



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Morlock333
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18:17:23 Sep 07 2007
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they came at the same time...the chicken had the egg inside...lol



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TickTock13
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18:19:44 Sep 07 2007
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i've always thought that depending on the level to which a person truly thinks something to exist beyond simple wishing anything can be created from thought. actually being a wiccan and not christian i think its the true resoning behind someone like jesus.



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Wolfsbohne
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18:23:14 Sep 07 2007
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If the thought is agreeable to your subconcious, your subconcious will accept it as fact and tangible thereby making it real to you. It is a basic principle of Mesmerism and autosuggestion. So yes, if you think about something long and hard enough it will become real to you. I assume this is why many pathological liars begin to believe themselves.



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Morlock333
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18:23:59 Sep 07 2007
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yes it is a wiccan kind of thought really...333



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FelixFelix
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18:30:16 Sep 07 2007
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I think this begins to get into the philosophy called 'solipsism'. It's the idea that since anything could be a dream (or virtual reality a la Matrix), we have no way of knowing whether anything is real. Therefore it is only our choice to accept reality as fact and to wonder if we could in fact 'wake up'.

I think many have tried to unlearn their accepted beliefs of what is real and what is the dream and perhaps those who achieve 'nirvanna' or some higher state of mind, have merely come to see the dream for what it is.



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TheLordDarkWolf
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18:33:33 Sep 07 2007
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Existance enhances that which is believed and believes are enhanced by that which exists. So one actually needs the other, it's not a matter of being against each other.



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Wolfsbohne
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18:35:19 Sep 07 2007
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That being the case - how would you seperate reality from belief to achieve Nirvana or are they one and the same? That then would mean that Nirvana is simply an "alternate" reality - like Bizzarro World.



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Darktink
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18:40:18 Sep 07 2007
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energy cannot be destroyed, only changed...



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Wolfsbohne
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18:45:03 Sep 07 2007
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I don't think any one is doubting that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Thoughts are energy as well. As I said further up - if you choose to not believe in something then your subconcious will fill that void with something else that it agrees with. It is not creating energy - simply replacing or altering it.



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Morlock333
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20:42:10 Sep 07 2007
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wow... this turned out to be a pretty good thread... thanx to all of you who took it seriously...333



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DarkKali
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20:49:18 Sep 07 2007
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we all believe in some thing or some one the one of who exist can be a belief to many and follow him or her in there own ways.

i do witchcraft and i do see and feel what i do is right and and live side by side.



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pEnteCulT
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20:49:53 Sep 07 2007
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This thread has me really thinking now...I don't know what to say...

All of you have excellent ideas and insight..



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Areyouafraidofthedark
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21:25:07 Sep 07 2007
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no because fact still remains.



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Wolfsbohne
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21:28:17 Sep 07 2007
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Which fact would that be?



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Sonneillon
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21:35:18 Sep 07 2007
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"Belief into existence"?? No, I don't think so.

So then, if I believe that I am the one true "God" of this universe, does that make it true and I am the one true God of this universe?

No, I don't think so.

Facts and proof of facts are what make things exist in this world.



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Areyouafraidofthedark
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21:39:52 Sep 07 2007
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eh nevermind its quite complicated i suppose...

lets just say just because you dont think something exists doesent change the fact that it does. the sun for example.. you can choose not to beleive in the sun...but that doesent mean it wont still exist..



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FelixFelix
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21:41:34 Sep 07 2007
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It's true that jumping off your roof and not believing in gravity doesn't appear to affect it's reality.



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Wolfsbohne
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21:43:55 Sep 07 2007
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We're not assuming that the sun would not exist for all others - only for the person who did not truly believe that it exists.

Example:
We are participating in this thread because we know it exists and believe it exists because we have seen it. Now, anyone who has never heard of this forum will not know of its existence, hence they will not believe it exists, ergo to them this forum does not exist. To us it exists - to them it does not.



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Sonneillon
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21:49:45 Sep 07 2007
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lol, I love how everyone is giving examples of things that can't be contradicted with a little bit of research.....

And there's the keyword "research".

The sun, gravity, or this thread aren't exactly very good examples to use as, well, the sun is in everyone's face everyday, gravity is with us 24/7, and this thread, well, it wouldn't be very hard to search for this thread in the forums.



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Areyouafraidofthedark
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21:54:35 Sep 07 2007
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vampires then.
to me they dont exist. because any evidince i've seen looks like total bull shit
but you beleive it because you beleive the evidence..but this is about existance....and..nothing will stop existing if you dont beleive in it......yeah this isent going anywhere...



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Wolfsbohne
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21:57:11 Sep 07 2007
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I was giving an example of the theory - not a demonstratable act. If you wanted to find this thread that would be easy enough to do if you knew it existed. What purpose would it serve to search for something if you have absolutely no inkling that it might exist? Once you find it however, it enters your belief and knowledge and therefor, to you, it exists.



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Areyouafraidofthedark
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21:58:09 Sep 07 2007
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If belief determines existance, do you think that once in existance does change/lack of belief destroy that which was created...


okay to awnser this more clearly..beleif doesent determine existance and no it doesent change what was created unless its an idea - say the sun god, ra. nobody beleives in it anymore but it still exists to a degree..i mean its acknoledged as myth...but it still exists as a myth...do you know what im trying to say? i tryed to make it as clear as possible.



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Sonneillon
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22:01:31 Sep 07 2007
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"Exists as myth". Now there's a respectable answer. Thank you afraidofhtedark.



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StoryBook
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22:03:13 Sep 07 2007
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It's true that jumping off your roof and not believing in gravity doesn't appear to affect it's reality.

Couldn't have said that better. Just because you believe it doesn't mean it's real.


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XBetrayedX
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22:48:36 Sep 07 2007
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lmao, this is a little confusing.
Just because you believe in something doesn't mean that it exists, but then again just because you don't believe in somethind doesn't mean that it doesn't exist..



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valentinesheart
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23:25:18 Sep 07 2007
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belief alone is not enough to manifest into being. truth of existence relies upon both belief and the manifestation of that belief through action to come into being.

if existence and truth were only contingent on belief, then we would all be superheros with the ability to fly, change shape, control weather, etc...



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Carvall
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23:29:34 Sep 07 2007
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I don't think belief is the be all and end all of things.....some things simply are not affected by belief, only we are.



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Meepz
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23:32:27 Sep 07 2007
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Just because you believe in something does not make it real. However, the belief itself is created and thus the idea exists. Some claim that thought can transcend into truth, but as Felix pointed out not all beliefs are created equal.



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FelixFelix
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23:53:32 Sep 07 2007
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The question always seems to come down to...

Did reality not change because reality is concrete and immovable?

Or did reality not change because on some level deep down, you really didn't believe enough?



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Wolfsbohne
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01:49:50 Sep 08 2007
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This would be the meat of the topic then, Belief itself, where we discuss the incidentals. Someone else pointed out earlier that the theory would be something like the Matrix - each person's reality is made for just themselves. If you know of something than you believe the idea exists, leading to the possibility of its manifestation in the world. To use the example of gravity again: If someone doesn't know of it's existence (impossible yes I know) then they don't believe in the idea. If you told this person to jump of a building then obviously they will be introduced to the idea of gravity - painfully albeit - and then this will have become reality. Why, though, would you attempt to jump off of a building suggesting you don't believe in gravity when the very purpose of attempting the jump indicates that you doubt your own veracity?

Use this as another example. Place a board on the floor and walk across it. Easy, right? Place this same board twenty stories up between two buildings and walk across it. Unless you are completely fearless, which I have no doubt many are, you will wable as you walk across this board. The idea of falling is real to you. Reason with yourself now. You've just walked across this same board on the floor and managed perfectly fine.

I've seen it time and again at stage hypnotism shows when the candidate is subjected to acts he/she would not normally perform. Because the Hypnotist was able to make the idea real to their subconciousness, it was adopted as fact and became real to the person. I've seen them suggest to the candidate that they should have a seat in an invisible chair - which they do and manage just fine. To the audience the chair does not exist - but for the candidate it is as real as the sun is bright.

This is not hoaky. Brilliant minds such as Benjamin Franklin have looked into the effects of hypnotism, lending it credibility. For the past hundred years at least, performers have been showing its effects as well. As long as it is real to you, then you believe it exists - to a point.



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Morlock333
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05:16:19 Sep 08 2007
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you would be the god of your universe... as i am the god of mine...333



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RaduVladismire
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19:57:03 Sep 09 2007
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yes i think that once ya belive in something it is real



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SteelTalons
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20:49:41 Sep 09 2007
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Ok this thread makes my brain hurt.. kudos Morlock I'm diggin it! hehe..

So going by my own belief that intention creates your reality, believing that something exists does make it exist ...to an extent...

I don't believe you can will something into physical being...however you can alter your own perception into creating an existence that is more suitable to your situation...uhh....

Does that make any sense? It sounded right in my head lol.. I may be back to clarify that with an example if I can think of one :)



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SteelTalons
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20:52:16 Sep 09 2007
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Actually I agree with some of what Wolfsbohne was saying as well.. If I choose to no longer believe in something, then it doesn't exist "to me" .. that doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist to anyone else.



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DruidnessSteph
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21:52:33 Sep 09 2007
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I think if you believe something you can make it come true. Example, many times after someone loses their mate they cease to live life and tend to follow shortly there after. My dad is 71 yrs old and instead of totally retiring and relaxing after 21 yrs in th eArmy and 18 yrs as a Deputy Sherrif he worked odd jobs until he became blnd. Now, his in college for the 2nd time getting an asso. degree in computers. I think he believes if he stops doing stuff he'll die.



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confusedmama
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23:22:45 Sep 09 2007
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no I think ppl would be shocked to know things like vampires/wolves and lycans exsist but i doubt it would change anything



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DragonWolf
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23:34:58 Sep 09 2007
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It doesn't actually "destroy it"...but it does make it all the harder for it to come back. It just sits in the back, or off to the side, until it finds those who can believe in it again to bring it back to their glory.



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Areyouafraidofthedark
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23:41:43 Sep 09 2007
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DAMNIT! THEY STILL HAVE THIS ON!?!?
g-sus...awnser is NO.



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XTCraver
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00:36:37 Sep 10 2007
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eh? you mean like unicorns and dragons?



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Wolfsbohne
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03:36:54 Sep 10 2007
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Yes. Unicorns and dragons.



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DarkHunter17
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07:16:12 Sep 10 2007
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it takes more than thoughts to destroy something... like i wont burst into flames if ppl dont believ lol



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Panthra
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07:44:21 Sep 10 2007
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ahhh its so funny on others beliefs and thoughts.. when you believe in one thing and the other in another.. wouldnt it be exsistance thow or only if you believe in it



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panther22
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13:30:51 Sep 14 2007
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I think therefor I am, if I tell some one they dont think there fore they arent, and they think about that and realise I'm ringht will they vanish? I'm thinking that just by them thinking about it they will thinki therefore they shall exist.



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LadyDiamond
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13:32:33 Sep 14 2007
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I believe it changes things totally.



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Scipio
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I personally believe in two layers of reality. Let me explain.

First, there is 'personal' reality. This is the reality for a single mind. This is influenced by said mind's experiences and personality. Every person will perceive every thing in their own way. For example, everyone will have different ideas attached to the color blue. For one person, it's a pleasant, delicate color. For another, it's a horrid, bland shade. And yet a third person might have no special attributes attached to it.

Then there is 'static' reality. This is the reality that underlies and surrounds minds interacting with it. Going with the above example, the color blue will always be the color right after green in the light spectrum, and a mind's personal reality won't change that. The color itself will have no thoughts or views on it's existance, because, well, it just IS.

There are probably lots of holes that a savvy person could poke in this theory. *shrugs*



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Wolfsbohne
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14:47:52 Sep 14 2007
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Well said



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Scipio
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14:51:48 Sep 14 2007
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*Smiles* Why, thank you.



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SteelTalons
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17:21:16 Sep 14 2007
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Santa Claus! There's my example hehe



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Blazee
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it really depends on the severity of the belief, like the person above me that mentioned santa clause, when kids find out he doesnt exist they dont go around proclaiming the end of the world, or start just randomly killing people....i think however that if the belief in god (jesus's dad) by which almost half the world believes in were to be shattered it would have dire consequences for everyone....



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SteelTalons
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18:15:18 Sep 14 2007
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Yay someone got my Santa reference! (I think lol)...My point was.. that to any child who believes in Santa.. he is quite real.. once you stop believing..he no longer exists, but that doesn't make his existence any less real to those who still believe.



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Blazee
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19:15:01 Sep 14 2007
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yeah i got what you were saying...lol



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01:45:37 Sep 16 2007
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IMO you don't have to believe in everything for certain things to exist.

For example: I don't believe in this chair I am sitting on, because I know it exists.

I don't believe in ghosts; I know they exist because I have seen them.

I do believe in the legend of Bigfoot, even though I have never seen one.

Basically, I think that belief relates to things you have no definite proof of. Once you have that proof (even just for yourself), belief in that thing ceases to be necessary.



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Namir
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03:30:01 Sep 16 2007
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LOL I posted this on another thread but it seems to remain relevent.

"Unicorns and Dragons care whether or not you believe they exist as much as You care whether or not they believe you exist."

Though the idea that once one has created something, do they still have power over that creation? Or does it then have its own existance? Could it then create through its own belief in something? Is belief the foundation for all existance? If so. Who is believing in you?



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CLIX
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03:52:38 Sep 16 2007
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I believe in God therefore he exists to me



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Marlene
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03:53:05 Sep 16 2007
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I think if you dont believe in something, if it exists then it still exists, just not to you.



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CryingMist
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05:31:56 Sep 16 2007
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belief and existence are kind of part of the quantum physic equation: taughs become things.



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Tamantha
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05:58:34 Sep 16 2007
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something only real if you believe in for me I believe in god.



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Alianora
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06:06:01 Sep 16 2007
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u forgot the easter bunny



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SteelTalons
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12:03:11 Sep 16 2007
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I didnt forget.. I just don't believe in the Easter bunny lol



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amberwine143
amberwine143

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12:06:55 Sep 16 2007
Read 888 times

If you believe in something it is real to you..doesn't matter if it's not to anyone else.



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cherryblossom
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00:00:34 Oct 08 2007
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you always have belief in something...whether it be yourself, god, gods, goddesses, budda, ect.

whatever it may be...you are always believing in something



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darklass
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12:36:08 Oct 11 2007
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I think if you believe in something then it is real to you, it may not be someone else belief so it is not real to them.



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ForbiddenDarkness
ForbiddenDarkness

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13:45:46 Oct 11 2007
Read 859 times

interesting topic vut it is hard to say



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Kryptick
Kryptick

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03:14:27 Oct 13 2007
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Belief determines everything.
The mind builds very strong barriers, to break down those barriers which lets you know you exist would probably totally destroy your intellect, so you'd either A) cease existing or B) go completely crazy and think you don't exist.



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CerbsX
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03:17:48 Oct 13 2007
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Wether it come to be or not you can still believe in it



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13:08:26 Oct 18 2007
Read 836 times

I don't think you can believe yourself to not exist since you obviously do, but I believe you can think that things don't exist the way other people persieve and make your own theorys on that



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Wolfsbohne
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20:09:25 Nov 12 2007
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But you can will yourself to death, exemplified by the "tragedy" of an old married couple. The wife passes away and the husband who is allegedly the picture of health soon passes from any number of reasons. The key to will is always belief, is it not?



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shadowfever
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20:14:15 Nov 12 2007
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Decartes said, "I think, therefore I am." It wasn't belief, it was the fact that he had awareness that was his proof of existance. Believing doesn't always make something so. You may create your own reallity but that doesn't make it fact. The mental hospitals are full of people who have believed in error.



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CLHunter
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20:18:27 Nov 12 2007
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This is response to the individuals who stated that there is energy in thoughts. I'm not necessarily going to disagree with you...but consider this angle for a second.

Matter...is currently known to exist in four forms: solid, liquid, gas and plasma. All matter continously vibrates (known as brownian movement). Atoms will stop vibrating when 0 Kelvin is hit (aka absolute zero). Energy, in these forms of matter, can very well be transformed...but as far as I am aware there is no evidence (scientifically speaking) to back up that an actual thought is energy. the act to create a thought...sure. But the thought itself? Because the thought in and of itself is not one of those forms of matter, then many will argue that it does not possess energy.

Just something to ponder.



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Doru
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20:19:20 Nov 12 2007
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the question is a paradox...



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Wolfsbohne
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20:54:38 Nov 12 2007
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CLHunter; you make a good point.

How to determine the amount of energy, if any, that a thought is comprised of. If there was any way to capture and isolate an actual thought then we could take that measurement. We come to conclusions based on educated guesses at this point - similar to our knowledge of the composition of many foreign planets. We've never been there but based on what we know about our immediate environment we make reasonable assumptions.

To determine that thought is energy, we should consider that thoughts have effects, in other words they have a sort of force - characteristic of energy, or the ability to perform work.

We can agree that there are two forms of energy - kinetic and potential. So in order for a thought to have an effect or kinetic energy, it must first be acted upon. A stimulus initiates a thought reaction - that reaction then produces another physical reaction or subsequent thought.



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CelestiaNocturne
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21:02:22 Nov 12 2007
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I think that you all make good points. IMO, like so many others, if you believe something to exist, it will exist. So on with everthing. And who is to say that we, the earth, the universe itself, only exist in the mind of someone, or some thing? The question posed is sort of Matrix-like, in that what we beileve to be real, may just be an elaborate computer program, and in reality we are just food for a Machine. One could debate this subject all day; a million theories could come of it, but who knows?



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DedLocke
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21:10:21 Nov 12 2007
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I must say that this thread has been the best I have read both due to the people in it expressing valid points of views...Wolfsbohne I noticed is a very big contributor to this...and yes with what you said way earlier when he was talking about pathological liars...if you believe in something so strongly it becomes reality to that person...that is how people can pass lie detector test...because they believe what they are thinking is true...



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SinginGhost88
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08:54:25 Nov 13 2007
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I think certain things exist or dont exist because we do or do not believe in them.
The moon doesnt dissappear just because we don't believe it is there. Unless you suffer from some sort of dementia or dillusion.
If you are strong enough mentally to change your own reality and environment just by believing that the cup on the coffee table just moved of its own accord...would you really be able to handle that?



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Shinrai
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20:47:46 Nov 15 2007
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I don't think belief means existence because things will exist even if we don't believe they do.



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JaydenStarr
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21:27:37 Nov 15 2007
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If belief determines existance...

Personally, I think each person creates their type of existance based on their beliefs. Just for example if you believe a certain type of doctrine you will create an existence where you model your life around that.

...do you think that once in existance does change/lack of belief destroy that which was created...333

I feel we adapt and change our existence based on our beliefs be they spiritual, social or political.



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Theshining1
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21:45:38 Nov 15 2007
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well i see this thread needs a real check.... first you have to no which is fact and fiction.. Belief vs. existence if you believe in something so dear to you then it may live so thats how you figure that out..



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darknessgalore
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21:50:19 Nov 15 2007
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i think belief and existence go hand to hand.if you believe on something you can make your future existence affected by it.



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xPsychex
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01:42:24 Nov 16 2007
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Unfortunately you can not will yourself out of existance therefore it is an impossibility.



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micahuzamaki
micahuzamaki

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02:12:04 Nov 16 2007
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phsic is right



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BlindMag
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03:34:45 Nov 20 2007
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How exactly would you go about creating something through belief?

Science has proved things have exsisted and things that do exsist do you need to believe it to make it true? I don't think so.



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sumkindamonsta
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05:05:12 Nov 20 2007
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this ? dont make ne senc belief and existance dont tie together at all



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SideshowVixen
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05:36:23 Nov 20 2007
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I don't think lack of belief can destroy something that already physically exists. And I didn't catch who said it... but someone mentioned something about creating through belief... I'm not even sure if that's possible.



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LordRazr
LordRazr

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01:47:01 Nov 25 2007
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very interesting thread, I do not see how you have beliefe vs. existence. you either believe it does or not and then you have what really does exist.



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EternalXRage
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22:20:52 Nov 25 2007
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This is a great thread and I had some thing really kewl to say but......I'm to tired to type it all out....lol Will post on this later.



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DravenG
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22:32:35 Nov 25 2007
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Well this is a good thread to post for today. My 10 year, who has been raised by my beliefs most of his life up until last year. I am not Wiccan, i tend to blend everything together, so I am more of a Eclectic Solitary Pagan. My son was given the choice of whether whe wanted to attend Moon School ( which is pretty much like religious education ) and he wanted to go. He is now being forced to attend CCD Catholic Education by my step mother and he is very confused. And he asked his teacher well how do you know Your GOD exsists? I was so proud of him. He toild them well my mommy doesnt beleive in your God she believes in many, but mostly the Goddess. The teacher told him The Goddess doesnt exsists, and thats all hogwash and witchcraft. So mt sweet lil angel replied after some thought, do you know what mother nature is. She says well yes Alex that si when God turns all the season. So he says well why isnt it called Father nature then. and the teacher had nothing else to say.



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Wolfsbohne
Wolfsbohne

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20:14:25 Nov 29 2007
Read 711 times

Good kid! Very inquisitive. He'll be a natural leader, someday. You've done well by giving him a foundation then letting him choose based on his own investigations. CCD may be very good for him.



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TheLostdemon
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23:22:25 Nov 29 2007
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well it depends
i can tell thats very interesting
like this
pain is pleasure
but with pleasure you cant have pain
and vice versa
but back to the subject
its your choice weather you want to believe that we exist
or to believe that we are fake
it all relies on the user



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Darkwalker1
Darkwalker1
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00:02:06 Nov 30 2007
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I think not, like say, a dinosaur, it is an example, people before never new of such things believed them then we found skelatons...



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Nenuphar
Nenuphar

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00:25:27 Nov 30 2007
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In reference to the query raised about how one could possibly "create" something through mere belief on the subject, I think that in some ways it might be plausible. But perhaps more on a metaphorical rather than literal level....
In a religous sense, citing Catholiscm specifically, if you think about it much of what consitutes the beliefs and figures of this religion are based in this same system of "creating through belief." God, angels, demons and spirits discussed in the bible have no basis in a scientifically verifiable reality. Thus these things are all quite literally rendered to be "questions of faith." yet even for all this literal uncertainty some saints and angels whose very existence has been questioned time and again have long been venerated as actual personages since their respective religions were founded. All people, regardless of religion or creed, harbor at least one belief that cannot be proven statistically; they put their trust in their belief alone, thereby "creating" the object of their belief. Even atheists who profess to not believe in God are in effect playing into this same philosophy. Because even as one can't prove that God exists, noone can prove, without a doubt, that he does not either...
Personal belief however plays a strong factor in this debate. What you inherently believe creates the reality that surrounds you. I may imagine a fantastical city exists where the Grand Canyon actually stands. But just because this city exists for me alone, that does not mean this belief becomes true to others outside of my personal outlook. Unless of course I can be persuading enough for them to come along with me as well on the idea.

In the end I guess it might all just come down to a matter of perspective...



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ThePinja
ThePinja
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02:45:49 Nov 30 2007
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To believe something into existence, would be like having a cut on your arm, and using your mind telling your body to heal it as fast as possible, and it happening within a few moments. Not only is that way beyond the sort of evolution we will see in the next thousand years of human life, air exists whether you believe in it or not. Gravity is the same, there are things that just ARE. And there are other things that take faith for some. One could say that hope, or human decency is something that takes belief.



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xVampireTearsx
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05:00:07 Nov 30 2007
Read 691 times

I quite agree with an above response.
Energy can not be destroyed, only take different forms.



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VR System
VR System

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05:00:07 Nov 30 2007
Read 691 times

This thread has been automatically closed for length.



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• • • • THIS THREAD IS CLOSED • • • •
•  Closed by VR System on Nov 30 2007  •

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