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Ok, so I have been sitting here for a few hours looking at things, wondering what has been going on in the world now a days. From more school shootings, to people saying that if you wear all black you are the devil; so many people have there eyes closed, now a days and it’s rightfully sad.

My topic today is about the columbine shootings and the rumors about Vampire: The Masquerade game, and how these affect the social fabric of the kid’s lives. After the shootings, people calmed down and things died down, till the next school shooting happened, and it was “linked” to the columbine boy’s also known as the trench coat mafia, and now if you wear a trench coat you’re a columbine kid, or someone that fallows in there foot steps.

Why is that?

Most of you know the game Vampire: The Masquerade; you know it’s a game, or I would hope so, you know it’s a fun game to play and when the game ends and the world begins. I would like to know your opinion on this, on the columbine shooting; if you think these boys didn’t know were fantasy ends and reality begins, or if it’s America trying to pin something they could never wrap there minds around on? Do you think you are misjudged just for the fact you wear black or listen to heavy metal, or possibly that maybe you wear your eyeliner on the heavy side people shunned you?

What is your view on America today and the way they handle the unknown and “Gothic” side of things, and how should schools handle things like this now a days? Do you think is it’s all the kids doing or are the parents and schools at fault?

We live in a society that is quick to blame anyone but themselves. Vampire Masqurade did not convince kids to go on shooting sprees. Most of the individuals I know who fell in love with the game are not kids and have enough common sense and morals to forgo violence.

On the topic of if goth kids will ever be understood or tolerated- it's a completely different subject. Kids are kids, and good luck trying to solve the bullying issue.

The kids that did the shootings had issues deep down. This is not to be blamed on a game. They may have been made fun of because of how the looked or acted and this was thier way to get even

I think its a combination of the three but sometimes no matter how hard you try to raise your children to the best of your ability with good sound morals etc....they will go their own way. You can only do so much from home and other influences will surely have their part.

The publics understanding of "Goth" will be just like all things of a "dark" nature, a long battle of misunderstandings and ignorance and only time will tell.

We feed media, and media feeds us. It's a diminishing loop though.

Our culture is violent. Our media reflects that violence. It becomes formula to break violence barriers in the media because of a well-established tendency for humans to become desensitized to it. Thereafter, violence increases in our culture.

This is an oversimplification of a complex process, and the majority of people will not commit violent crimes, but you’ve aptly pointed out a trend. In terms of human adolescent psychology, the returns of the media loop seem to be diminishing.

The usual factors to offset pubescent madness --- family, school, church, work --- seem to be absent or splintered for some of these troubled teens.

So if the offsets are fractured or not present, I do think a game, or a multiple of games, movies, and newspapers either describing or creating a violent universe could make a depressed and angry person more violent.

The Columbine kids were not Goth, were they?

Good post guys, great feed back.

I think that most if it is the schools doing along with the parents and the kids.

The reason for the schools is, when a kid comes to them with problems, instead of doing something they just so " Oh kids will be kids" For the fact that they wish not to lose a football game or what ever else.

The reason for the parents is for the fact that most moms and dads do not want to deal with the kids, they think oh they will grow out of it. Yet they allow there kids to be bullied and pushed around. Most dads would tell there sons to stop being a baby and fight back. Others beat there kids or don't give two cents about them.

And the last is mostly on the child them selves. They do not have to turn to things like this, they could do something better then shot there attackers, they could just laugh in there faces or walk away. Look at me and my friends we came from a crappy background yet, we are great kids.

Now on the goth thing, just because I wear all black does not mean I eat babies, Unlike Radu. ;) I also wear bright colors, when I want to freak people out, most goths now a day get angry and start fights. Why fight when you can just scare them with bright colors?

They were depicted as Goth BM due to their clothing mainly....

Ok, The whole first person shooter games do not make killers. ive played them my whole life and never once just because a game i wanted to kill anyone.

My belief is that its the schools fault for not regulating more on how kids are getting bullied now a days just because they are different. The school i went to had alot of problems with this sorta thing because the principle had his head so far up his butt and had his favorites that no matter what you do or say those kids dont get in trouble. I was a victim of all this just because i wasent rich and i didnt dress the way everyone else did.. Personnally this is why i dont have my HSD i have a GED. Due to the fact i was almost one of the kids who wanted to shoot up the place but never did.

So in conclusion. Its not the games its the school. Cause my parents taught me better!

Bloodmother -

No I just think they were smart and geeky and alot of kids just picked on them for being out cast.

I think everyone just ignored them so they did what they had to do to be noticed. by someone

when so many people dismiss people because they are so wrapped in trivia, and they refuse to accept people as they are, or even belittle them for not being superficial like they are.. well then if you threaten them (which both Eric and Dillion did) and they laugh at you.. well can't say much for those people either. I bet you they will never make fun of a misfit again.

DarkMindSet- I do not think that people would shoot other just for the fact they wanted people to see them.

Dungens and Dragons had their time in the line of fire as wll.. when people are looking for something to blame, for behavior that they didn't pay attention to as it developed, then after the fact they scramble for blame anything besides admiting they where ignorant and blind, as well as decieved.

Personally, I think "goth" is just another subculture. We have had many in America in the past. Hippies, Beatniks, etc. Some gain a lot more popularity and become better understood by the mainstream while other stay "underground" and are subject to the speculation, and exaggeration, of the mainstream.

However, I think this subculture tends to enjoy being less known. Weather people in this genre want to admit it or not, they generally like being out of the mainstream. If everyone started wearing black and such I could see many wearing pink just to be different. I'm not saying everyone would do this, but a percentage of this culture is about being different and little more.

As for the issues of schools, there policies tend to swing like a pendulum. If everything is going smooth then there is no problem. But if there is a major incident the policy tends to swing drastically in the opposite direct to appease the parents and media. Then something else happens and it swings back the other way. Its not necessarily the best way to handle things, but its a quick fix to get their asses out of the fire.

ok let me refrase not really to be noticed just to be heard.... that or the have completly lost there mind.... but i agree.

Thanks darkice, i didn't think they were goth --- I remember the Outcast part.

Very painful strata to be in, but this is where support structure comes in.

Demanding that the schools primarily deal with it is asking for a lot. if there is parental involvement in the schools, then a small group of parents typically have the most influence in shaping policy that is not state regulated.

Parents have tremendous influence but often take the easy road when confronted with problem children --- either their own or someone elses.

It's hard enuf tohave lived through your own teenage years, but to relive all that sadness, terror and angst through your child seems more than many adults can handle.

I spent a great deal of time in front of the t.v. as a kid, but somehow learned stuff from it. But many kids seem to have a majority of electronic input via tv, games, cell phones, videos, internet as compared to human interaction. Many seem to be peer-raised within these media interactions with very little adult supervision.

If you look at the list of clothes you will find that it is police issue and SWAT Indorsed clothing, these two did their homework ... in studying things para military , goth i the label put on them, by a spooked people that wanted to think they know where such people "come' from they want to think that they can "watch out for goths" and they will be safe... ? really well then the next time a Christian kills somebody I will know that christians are to be avoided... ? Or just ignored because I don't like the oppressive way they think.

Gahh, not this can of worms again. Anywho.

This is one of those "gotta blame it on someone" subjects. It is almost enough said about this subject, which in my eyes is not a very big issue, unless of course you are one of the adolescence that has been or is being tormented.

Most go through this torment within their young lives, but this does not mean they are more prone to lash out. The individuals from the so called "massacre at Columbine", apparently knew what they were doing.

Well, in my point of view, the all out media fall out, even though it took the nation by storm, is evident that whom ever covered the "story" did make quite a sum of money off of it. Needless to say, that for this media exposure, the world is watching...Thus making it into the "big issue" that it apparently was, or still is.

Society feeds on this behavior, it seems to be normal to feed on the languish of others. Like that of seeing a car crash and being just a bystander "looking on" as if they actually knew the individuals involved.

It really has nothing to do with what the individuals wore during the event of said massacre. Society just needed a reason to point fingers at other innocent individuals that they saw as outcasts within "their" social structures.

apearences have always strick judgement and many will judge on race, language or religions and I could go on. Sadly even if one member of a certain comunity was to do wrong the whole comunity would be judge upon the individuals's actions.

It is sad but true.

Soulshroude-
I know this is a can of old warms, but this is something new to look at, Its is not just what happened, but also the new things they are throwing in to the mix. Its about how people do not want to see the truth.

Yea these kids were friggen nuts, but its not just there doing but also the people the tormented them, and the people that just walked away. In Oklahoma you were made fun of if you were not loaded, or a Barbie doll. Its kids now a days that are the real down fall, because for the fact parents and other adults, do no or don't care any more.
Its also the way the media is making things out to be, if you are not this tall or this skinny you are not this rich, then you are worthless. Pssft on them.

Also is does not help when "goths" go out and attack people, most of the wanna bes give true goths a bad name.

Judgemental people will always exist and associate what you look like to your actions then associate those actions to a groupd, most likely the one they think you belong to then accused the group itself of being like that categorizing it.

I think that the world wants someone to blame because they do not want to believe that normal people can just be that fucked up and shoot up their class mates. They want to feel safe again sending their kids to school believe they will come home again ok. So they have to say something made them that way cause it normal kids did it there is no way to prevent it from happening again.

Karma has nothing to do with it.

Blood you are right, we must have someone other then are selves to blame, for in are eyes we are never wrong.

On the contrary, it really does not matter what clothing you wear. Just because you dressed "goth" or whatever during your tirade of voilence just gives the media another reason to point its finger.

Hell, you don't see some arrogant religious thumper going on a tirade of voilence, even though it does happen from time to time...The media will not cover it for the sake that the nation is 75% religious atmosphere. Never give a bad name to that which influences society the most.

Thus the point of placing the blame on a subculture that both half of society as well as media wishes to condemn.

The clothing does not make the individual, the individual does. Clothing is not a weapon of hate...The attitude of the hate is the crime. Though the punishment is laid on who was wearing the clothing rather than what sort of crime it was and who was hurt...This is the true issue, not the blame game.

You are right one that, we shun the darker side or life, like with this godhatesgoths.com site, I very well do not think the guy is a reverend, with what he is saying.

You are right, its not the clothes its the person, but what happens when the child does not have that helping hand?

Ss you are perfectly right the medis do put things out of context and out of proportion to seel their story. It is sad but true and sucks.

Many hatred crimes or close minded people become even more violent or close minded du to the media's actions upon the " apearence" of an individual.

i think the thing people have to remember and i think the movie the gladiator stated. rome or society in this case is ruled by the mob. you have one or two ignorant people getting a hold of a story and turning it into something its not. the kids were probably in some serious need of someone to listen and understand, but instead they got a bunch of crap from their piers and probably nothing from the teachers. i hate to say this, but society breeds the situations. not to say people should not take responsiblity for their actions, but for all the new technology people cant communicate with each other to save a rock from extinction.

I find it sad that pairs Hilton and Brittney spears can do what ever they want and get away with it, yet if you go over 5 miles a hour you get a five hundred dollar speeding ticket and you drivers licenses taken away

i think people today just want to pick one group of people to blame everything on

Wish he had the balls enough to put an e-mail link on the site itself...Seems that individuals such as the "Rev." are the instigators of what ever so called "war" is being waged.

Do all within the subculture of "goth" a favor and contribute NOTHING to the site nor to this so called "Rev."

The only thing this individuals seems to be out for is money from those two apparent "books" that seem to be in the works.

Just another individual wishing to take advantage of society for the sake of money. More exploitation brought to you by a hypocrite.

On this site it had a picture of the kids calling them names and other things.
And that they do horrid things to kids and others. I'm what you call a goth and I don't do theses things.

i wouldnt put to much effort into the site. it also hates retarded kids even though it says how evil goths are for beating up retarded kids.

And don't forget women as well.


Its just sad how people will judge the boys so fast, and blame a game, why not blame D&D to along with the music they had, oh and why not even the food they eat, the shampoo they use, soap and other things.

You noticed that to eh Necrop? And people wonder what the world is coming to *Chuckles*.

the guy is just out to hate and make people hate. if you dont give them any credit, they dont have any power.

Yea but there will always be people like that out there, and there will always be followers

also that kind of person manages to corrupt till controle a few who then have the domino effect and creates a amss of persons who hate and becomes violent judgemental and till a certain point dangerous.

Ok guys getting off topic and on to something that will kill the forum post, back on to it.


These boys might have also had mental problems as well.

That's not only in America but even in other countries.

My country (Malta,Europe) has the same mentality if not worse, can't exactly know since I've never been to America, but my country is very known for closed mindedness, although very ignored.

So I can assure you that, I was always misjudged from my gothic clothing and point of views and many blamed the media or my peer group.

Thing is neither has influenced me, I decided to follow the individualistic path on my own.

You are very right in your point.

Thanks and sorry forgot to respond to the second point so I'll do it here:

As for the rest of kids, I think it's the same everywhere, in every country.

They are very influenced by the media and peer pressure.

Many kids are not putting a line between reality and fantasy.

Parents and teachers should educate kids on this issue, however like the proverb says: ''You can lead a horse to the water but you can't force it to drink.''

Indeed many kids nowadays shun education and their parents' advices, but we still have to insist on educating them. Ignore the eye rolling and whines because our speech is long,boring and repetitive, but it is needed until the child gets the lesson, and punishments are needed too.

Another issue that I notice is, that nowadays parents are getting too much permissive and spending less time with their kids.

If they spend more time with them, maybe they would spend less time with video games and parents should check what their kids are doing and educate themselves on technology and adolecense and not having the mentality of: ''I don't know'' or ''I don't understand.''

I am aware that nowadays parents both work etc... so life is more stressful, but spending time with the children should still remain as an important value in modern families and not seen as something old fashioned.

It seems to me no one is able to make a balance nowadays. I know it's difficult (no actually don't because I am not a parent, but can imagine) that being a parent is not easy and no one is perfect, but I think anyone can do some effort and improve things.

With balance I meant not being too harsh nor too permissive, for parents and teachers-after all they are the children's educators. In fact they are educators and not friends or dictators but educators-which is something in between.

And balance should be done by children too, kids remember video games and movies are all fiction, meaning they're all a lie!

Also if the issue resulted from the video games, maybe the addiction brings some psychological issues, (don't know I'll search for this) that's why kids might lose track of what is real and not, more reasons to spend time with the kids and inform our/yourselves.

i think some of it is parents are to busy trying to be the kids best friend instead of an authoritive person.

Wow babe you have a great point.

It is sad that some kid don't know the line, do you think this is the parents doing for not spending time with them?

Yes parents are spending less time I believe and that is not healthy-also noticed that some parents give up and send their kid to the councellor (I know certain issues can be solved only by therapy- but certain kids all they need is someone to listen to them and give them advices-talking from personal expirience) and also a bit of lack of education, there should be some lesson extra or seminar whatever is the educational system of the place and educate kids about this topic.

In Malta, or at least the schools I was in, we tend to have some extra lessons/seminars/meetings on certain issues sometimes like drugs and sexual education for example, but I have to say that this topic was never discussed, maybe teachers take it for granted that kids can't get so addicted to lose track of reality.

Also programmes of discussions on tv should be made on topics that bring a lot of modern's issues, it would help I think, considering many are influenced by the media.

A reason why many Maltese believe that metal is the music of the devil is because of a tv programme that is supposed to be based on reality, but the truth is that it was full of bs because their reality is a subjective one. Not exactly a rant just want to show how people get brainwashed by the media.

And yes parents are becoming more a friend than a parent nowadays, that's what I meant by balance, to be a parent and a friend at the same time, because having stricked parents like mine is not healthy either.

And since now I read the others' posts I have more to add. This topic makes me feel passionate about it, because I feel related to it.

Yes society always wants to blame someone, in my posts I might appeared that I am blaming too, but not exactly, I am just wondering where the issue can come from and trying to find a solution for it, I know I am not a super hero and can't save the world by just a post, but I just tried to think about a possible solution or at least a help to better things.

It is always in our hands what to do. We have the choice. I have no problem in sharing my past on VR so I'll have no problem in sharing my teenage expiriences.

So let's begin, hi I'm dng and when I was a teen I was bullied because I was seen as an outcast, in clothing, in behaviour, in opinions etc...

I could choose to do many things. From killing or beating, or just ignore it and learn to live with it. I chose the 2nd decision but never with my head down, I always responded back when I felt it was worth to do so.

So in the end it's all our choices, but for someone to do a shooting, there must be some psychological problem, and the bullying and everything take part of the problem-certain mental issues are caused by what we go through, but many times we have the choice to do something. At least so far no minor has ever shooted anyone in Malta and I hope it'll never happen.

However, maybe for us adults it's easy to say so, but teens/kids need guidance so if they feel they are abandoned and helpless (I was in that state so I know how much horrible it is) they can end up doing things of this sort.

Again I'll say: Educate them and listen to what they have to say, then give advice and help them.

At least this is my idea.

As for religion please keep it out, it's not the topic about it, I have my thoughts too, but it's not the topic so I won't put my input, and please be careful what to say about religion in here, don't forget the rules. Just a reminder no rant.

There is usually something in every generation that gets people excited over nothing.

People who do not conform either in dress or thought are on the fringe, we choose to be that way and must deal with the consequences.

People who take lives in such a way are mentally ill, people will always try to look for links to fringe groups etc.

Indeed Sinora I always say:

''You have to pay a bitter price if you choose to be yourself.''

In fact I do so and don't regret in doing so even though sometimes I think of changing my philosophy when I can't handle the issue but then return to it again.

In today's society we blame technology and games, bullying and labels, this and that, in another generation other things will get blamed, everything that is seen as new (modernity) is often seen as bad by the older ones.

But the way certain things are going, are really bringing serious issues and negative consequencies.

Who/what is really to blame? Is there really anything/one to blame? Or it is our responsability what to do, therefore the fault is just ours?

So, where the issue is coming from? What is the real issue? Are there any issues after all? Yes because of the bad things that are happening.

So what can we do to solve them or at least make things go better for the present and future?

These are questions I am asking to myself and try to find the answers for.

i never be suprised when that happen in america. it will happen again that i have no doubt of. And it dont have with a game to do. Alot have to do with the weapon laws. the right to carry weapon etc etc. No wonder that theese stuff happen really. Many americans way to see on weapons is scary. There is the mainproblem as i see it.

Not necessarly, people would carry weapons even if it is illegal and some have such a ''I don't give a f*ck'' attitude that would also sell gun to minors.

It's not the weapon or the law which is wrong, I believe it's the way we choose to use them and sometimes a lack of attention where to leave stuff that children shouldn't find.

A similar example of this is the internet, it can cause harm, but it's not because internet is evil but because certain people choose to use it for the wrong reason. The same for anything else.

there have been several cases of school age kids playing VTM and taken thier charictars to far...far as the colinbine school shooting i do not believe the game had any influance they definately had issues i think they had been labeled freaks as they dressed slightly differant and were loners and wanted noticed beit possitive or negative they demanded to get noticed ...when the game D&D game out many kids took thier chars to seriously and committed many murders ...i argued with parents over and over they were of unstable mind set period the real question is why cant these kids tell the differance between realality and fantisy ?

This may upset some peopkle and if you are one of them Im sorry. But I would never live or visit America. As I feel it is to dangerous

Bronze, something like this could happen anywhere, this is just one case that happened in America.

LivNdeadGirl yes one of the problems is the wish to be noticed, this reminds me of an Article I found on the MSN official site, some month ago, about the ''Look at me generation,'' it was referring to today's teens and their wish to do anything to get attention.

But an act like this is, is an extremist act, wrong in all ways whatever is the reason.

''...why cant these kids tell the differance between reallity and fantasy ?''

Maybe it's because they like fantasy so much, because they dislike their real life, that it takes over their sanity.

Many, I included, find refuge in fantasy and see it as their true home, because it makes you feel comfortable to be yourself, but if it gets out of control your ''home'' can become dangerous...

This topic is a high risk topic for a flamewar i feel. Just of that reason i dont say my real opinion of that country. But im sure the way they see on weapons have alot to do with all the schoolmassacres that going on there.

Just stick to the topic and remember the rules and it'll be fine :)

deathnitegrl
good replye you say why cant kids see the difference between reality and fantasy. I think it is many aspects involved in this. The parents lack of knowledge on how to raise their kids is 1 thing but also adults humans lack of ability to see signals from the kids. example teachers in school etc etc.

Well it doesn't happen every day with schools the real threat is the weapons in the hands of "thugs" that is the real WMD not any nuclear missal rockets ha no the real threat we as Americans have is the fact that we think of #1 out of all people never willing to get our hands dirty this is one of the reasons the death penalty is banned for it's "Inhuman" ways , well i bet the people that they hurt they didn't think about how humane they were no the only way this is going to go back is if we take a Eye for an Eye my opinion is if a married man who pays his taxes lives his life goes to work and busts his back working for a living not a perfect man but a honest one is able to be slain down by the lowest form of life in a Violet fashion lets say he bound him and threw him in a river alive what kind of thought or chance did he have against this or the children who are beaten raped and murdered everyday maybe not killed but their childhood the very thing that as people we should guard the only real treasure in this world and they are able to take that light that love that they hold in this world and break it well then in my eyes we should break there's ! An Eye For An Eye

A Comedian Named Ron Wight Said That he lives in Texas where they have the death penalty and they use it he goes on to say that in Texas if you go and kill one of them they will kill you back now that sounds like a grand plan bury a few of these scum-balls end their ability to repeat their actions .

Indeed I mentioned the fact that, there should be more attention from parents and teachers to educate them about social related issues too.

Yeah sometimes the signals are there and very clear, yet we tend to not notice :/

Well I still think if their parents would sit down and see their children falling into a darkness like that , the kind that would enable a child to slay children their classmates idk they could help not all falls on their shoulders but i do think in all cases parental guidance is falling into a theory more that a option with all the pills and doctors ready to say whats wrong with them Hmmm maybe they just need a loving heart to guide them but im just a overly protective dad lol

Yes I think many times teens would find it easier to live their teenagehood if they have someone who is ready to listen to them, most of the time it's just that-feeling all alone and full of problems to solve on their own, maybe finding someone who wants to listen and give advices is all that is needed unless there are really serious issues that really need therapy.

Well therapy is a bandaid the only way that they will ever get better isn't by laying on a couch telling strangers their life stories they need a good dad or mom to love them some damage can be stopped if only caught in time those boys that massacred that school in Colorado were sick beyond repair by the time that they went to school but i think in this day and age people are more wrapped up in Bills money cars the house that family and children have fallen a few rungs on the ladder of importance and they were left to be in their time of need so they wrapped them selves into their minds and darkness and sickness till they did what they set out to ......

My view is that the so-called gothic side of America is so incidental as to be insignificant. The reality is that I see very,very, few individuals who dress the gothic style. Perhaps some follow the life in private but again that is a reason why it is insignificant

Well i dress in that style for reasons

1 i love the shade or blackness

2 its comfortable

3 I have had my life's light put out as a child so i coped with my life in the way a sheltered child does folds in and in black people leave you be take you for the wrong type child and sometimes peace is all we need that and some love

Agreed. It's all in our choices, I believe I behave in a well manner, goth or not-we surely won't change people's misconceptions but we can give good examples and wrong people who misjudge us, and yes DarkWolfMan the one who does the act always searches for something else to blame.

The mentality of:

''It is never me it's always the others' fault.''

Wrong, we are responsable for our actions.

How do we develop coping skills? Why do some kids not only survive the high school pecking order, but develop beyond it?

Back to media: not sure about videogames, but the "short burst" message, "the spin," the "blurb" "buzz-word," is all geared to a short attention span.

I think it trains or modulates how long we will pay attention.

Children are not learning to focus, and people seem to have stopped listening.

Also, reading requires patience. an essential ingredient of patience is focus, which seems to be in short order in our culture.

Yeah it seems nowadays we are too much selfish, it is only about me only and no one wants to put themselves in others shoes.

yes we dont see our selves falling till we are on the ground

well if you believe the media it was all marilyn mansons fault

I think people tend to blame things on the parents - not being involved in the lives of their children. Probably a bit true - since most families have working parents, at least most that I know can't afford to have one parent stay home. I bet that there would be less violence from children if the parents were more involved. The kids are lonely and unsupervised and they end up seeking attention any way they can find it. By getting online and picking up strangers, by wearing clothing considered "deviant" by others, by piercing or tatooing whatever they can, by shooting up schools ....blech it's scary.

I bet if one parent was home - paid attention to the child, made sure he or she did his homework and watched minimal tv - things would go differently. I know it sounds corny, but sheesh how much trouble can you get into if your parents are watching out for you - and you feel loved and safe?

My other bet is that if you could POSSIBLY make that happen, all of America would change.

But under our government and monetary system, it just doesn't look possible. My other hope is education. The more educated a person is - the more they tend to want their children to be educated - it's an excellent cycle if you can get on it. Unfortunately we have a lot of parents who hold their children back - or don't push them to succeed.

Bottom line...kids need their parents - or at least one parent who truly cares...and those kids will change our world.

Beyond outside influences...respect and manners begin at home.Now a days most parents aren't parents...they could care less about their kids...let alone pay attention to what they are doing.They let the internet and TV raise their kids.At the same time...the kids stop going to their parents when something bad happens to them...whether it is in school or life in general.I believe that if a child commits a felony crime and does not commit suicide after words...the parents should be charged with the crime as well...especially if said parent(s) buy them the weapons they used or say they had no idea what their child was doing...excuses are worthless when it comes to so called adults making the excuses.

Majority of the local games here in tampa rely on you needing to either have parental written consent forms with emergency contact information.Or be 18 or older. The written consent forms is a way to keep any blame off the people running the game
, as well as the problematic issue of.The parent saying i didn't know my kid was doing that.This I have found prevents any bad moments on this game, Especially since its the norm's who are quick to blame anything uncouth with the public views.

Games aside...Im talking the kid planning on bombing a school or a bedroom full of weapons and videos of them shooting things up and bragging about killing a bunch of people.Parents stopped being parents...they try being their kids buddies...pals and friends...forgetting that kids need rules and discipline.The world isn't the same as it was when alot of us were kids...yes thier were bullies and fist fights in the school yeard...but no one went home...got a gun and came back to shoot the bully.Instead of guards and metal detectors in every school...there should people parents talking to their kids more and actually listening to their problems...talking to the school staff about disciplining the bullys and not letting them go with a slap on the wrist.More parent involvment in their kids lives and school...would help out alot more.

Exactly!

*applauds*

Issues are getting dealt the wrong way, one of the main problems!

Id have to agree, parent involvement is crucial however a parent can still be a friend, and be a parent my mother is one of the parents who treated me more like a friend then a son. However when things got too much or I did something wrong I was punished.and I knew the rules which was set in motion. Using parents as the reason only depicts more problems in part.Its not just the parents role to listen but a child's part to open up.And us all being kids we know that there were things/are things we could never talk to mom and dad about either due to embarrassment or just feeling they didn't need to know.
I would say that the best way something like columbine could have been prevented in honesty would be this.
1. make getting a gun legally a lot harder.It keeps kids from being able to get to them as easy.
2.crack down harder on gang related incidents then random black market gun buying would be a lot harder also.
3.instead of using crappy people as counselors in schools use a real psychiatrist who can see all that stuff before it actually happens.So initiative can take effect.
Its not much and a lot will say well they do all that anyways, or that takes our freedoms away.

I agree about 20 years ago a fist fight in a school yard might have led to that bully following you home and trying to beat you up again, but we did not go around picking up a gun and killing a ton of people because no one helped stop him.

Wow guy I thank you all for the wonderful feed back, and the great writing's. But America is not the most dangers country out there Russia, Iraq, Baghdad and Africa along with many other are way worse then America.

Alot of kids that clam to be goth , are really the reason the true was have a bad name. We pay a high price for who and what we are, but in the end is it not worth it?

While I think some people really do get too wrapped up in the fantasy world, I think people like to blame something, anything, rather than accept that there are bad people out there. That there are A LOT of bad people out there, and its other people's fault sometimes.(abuse, etc.)
So they look for an excuse, and look at the Gothic culture, we're perfect to blame, it seems. I got judged a lot when I first got into this scene, and I still continue to be judged, regardless of how much I've toned it down.

I think fantasy might have an impact on mentally unhealthy children. Violent games, if overdone, might influence someone of a weaker mind, they might lose themselves in fantasy.
It's just not as likely as people like to say, that's just my opinion though.

I think that they felt unloved and picked on and started to hate people and then snapped.....

I have removed the posts which have dragged this into the realm of a political discussion.

Please stick to the topic.

Thank you.

MystikalMoon, I agree. There are so many broken homes in America where the kids aren't shown love...The parents don't know how to cope with problems...So they just play games and watch movies, which, most of them, aren't so wholesome. Even kid movies.
Then they grow up, and they're detached from reality.

Your discussion has merit, but it is no different that the previous discussions that occured over 20 years ago.

We had young teenagers and 20-somethings either killing themselves or killing others. The reason that were named varying from playing D&D or listening to heavy metal music.

It all comes down to mentally unstable or scarred people acting out and using their environment as an influence or an excuse.

Gothic or Industrial music, black clothing, or video games are all things these mentally unstable people attached to. It could have been country music, or my favorite, religion.

Just look back at the 90's when we had people bombing abortion clinics or using sniper rifles to kill doctors who perform abortions as a part of their practice. The reasons given for this was that it was against "God's word" and the killings were justified.

At the end, the choice to commit an act of violence is the individual's choice. If they are weak enought to allow ANY influence guide their actions, it is still THIER choice to be influenced.

Chocolate does NOT make you fat. It is your choice to eat the chocolate that makes you fat.

As mentioned above...some parents are working to support their children. That is why you have some many home alone children. Many children in school are trying to imitate the columbine school shootings.

Sometimes even adults go over the fine line of realty and fantasy.

In small towns like mine there is nothing for the kids to do. They fall in with the wrong kids and being a small town once they get in the system...the police here are constantly on them.

There are the kids that are exposed to parents using illegal drugs, a parent in prison, a single parent kid. They see so much in their lives and yet many fall throught the cracks of the system.

Babies having babies.

The stories never end.

Profiling takes place often in the US these days as well as all over the world. Its sad that the way people dress or act puts them into a catagory, however on the same note this tyoe of profiling does help in solving many crimes also. I know at my work we have many "emo" or goth kids that come and I know all of them, and in turn they know me by first name also. Others who work with me used to watch them very closely for the way they looked in fear they would be causing trouble, only over time was I able to train my officers that these kids may look differant but are not the ones causing all the trouble for us. We do have a couple that do come in and cause trouble and becouse their appearance is easily remmebered people tend to asosiate the trouble with the look and condem all of them without further thought.

If an actor plays a bank robber in a movie, he assumes the role of a villain, he/she knows (hopefully) that they are acting a role. Their are those that place more significance on the production/movie, then the actors, we as viewers gain a flight of fancy.. when someone attaches/connects too much of a characters role to their lives (usually when in diress or subject to real or perceived persacution) after they unsucessful seek mediation(it is debatable that the two did that or not) and the mediation fails (they allude to such things in writing) well then their faith in the real world fades and all that fantasy fortified world gains ground very useful to avoid reliezing you have and are builing an arsenal and plotting to shot up your shcool, you need to constantly bolster by outside assurances real or perceived.

During my time in school, it was ironic that the worst trouble makers were not the punk/Goth or other outcasts that were the victems of ridicule by the upper crust, but was the upper crust, well-to-do kids that got into the majority of troube, be it fights, stealing, pregnancy, or suicide.

Columbine was convenient that those that got in trouble happen to have interests in things Goth-like at the time they followed through.

Yet, most recently, here in central FL, there were some kids who were arrested for planning a school attack. The reason they wanted to attack had nothing to do with clothing, music, books, games, or anything that could be labeled at Goth.

Their reason for the planned attack was an attempt to retaliate against other students who made fun of them.

The gothic clothing could be just made up by the media, just to have something to blame and give more encouragement to Anti-goths.

And even if it was real it'd be just said to have more things to blame just to say: ''you see it's always the same type of people, they're all evil. Anti-goths are right.''

Sometimes even when something bad happens and no one knows who did it, people tend to assume it was 'that guy' because of his 'weird' look.

Actors also get typecast, and sometimes find it difficult to find roles where they can show their versatility.

People are herd animals in many ways. Even loners. We want to be part of a team, which means sporting the team colors.

By the time a look or philosophy has a "Brand" like Goth, it is no longer an individualistic statement. It has become a statement of belonging and support and following the credo, mantra or rule system that someone else set up.

goth is as bogus as prep or fashionista.

Bite your tongue, Bloodmother!

I refuse to believe that I am no longer a Gothic individual!!!

LOL!

I guess those of us old-schoolers should be a little flattered that others have attached themselves to our previous work, and have given it a name that others can now collectively fight against.

Guess we'll have to start a new group of non-Goth Goths that have no affiliation to the existing Goths...

Yeah I agree with BloodMother.

I think that nowadays the anti-mainstream became the new mainstream, the young ones want to be individualistic yet still fit in, but that would be condtradictory so practically they aren't really anti-conformists.
Hah if you are really a 'deviant' you know you are you can't become one.

In a way we are all fakes, we are not the first to day anything, we copy those before us. Like after the shootings many more popped up, and more and more will.

Yes we profile, some times we do not mean to, I know I do and never mean to, one thing I do not do is judge unless you give me a good reason to. In my school I was the freak the out cast and the "witch", all because I was reading about wicca for a report. Labels in this world will always be, its in a nature as humans to do this. Its a way for us to some what understand what we do not know.

We always get strereotypes even in adulthood, the married, the single, the one with the expensive car, the unemployd etc...

It's in our brain to get first impressions anyway, we see a person we see her/his looks and our brain associates the looks with our information memory.

Eg.see a man associate it with the male gender, he is wearing a suit, so he might be a businessman or going to an interview or somewhere formal. (it's like having information on the pc the difference is that you don't see words written yet information gets proceeded.)

And yes we can't ever be fully individualistic.

''remember that you are unique just like everybody else.''

Humouristic quote but true.

You are right, we can only be are selves, thats the best way to break away from the other people, to have a open mind and look at things in other light.

Until a bunch of mentally unstable children latch on to the music and dress of a subculture and mass murders a bunch of fellow students in the name of that subculture.

Remember that there are less tolerant observers in the world to do not take the time to research and learn about a culture or subculture.

Post 9/11 was a good example. People were attacking Hindus and Sikhs because most Americans are too lazy or stupid to truly learn who attacked us.

We only know that they wore "rags on their heads," spoke with a different accent, and had darker skin, therefore they are terrorists and had to be attacked.

If I force my "uniqueness" on others, or belittle them, or dismiss the interest of others (in light of your beliefs, or lack of faith/philosophy) even going so far as to slap a label on somebody and taunting them to except it.. I would grab a gun as well, yet back when I was a kid, all the stimulation was moderate (present but not saturated) escalation increases by waves, a "demon" stalks rooting out those that can be coherced to devious
plots... ever spark of mysterious forces, from any where other then the minds of people that distanced themselves from others because they where not wholy excepted as non conformist. people acted shocked by their appearance, they eventually(with the exception of a few fanatical typical jocks do to ,gain exceptance in their groups continue to pester.) tolerate and grow acustome to their appearance, so a "healthy' stable person would settle in, yet some are prone to feel like their identity is conforming.. they start to then raise the fringe with edgy behavior
militatent leanings, rebeling against artificially bright people, those that allow the 'bulies among them in Bible studies, only to watch as they cast enertaining jeers at said "outsiders". a fuse is primed and lite. They where so "Out Standing" and Noticeble that they became invisible seen only for entertaining the peers of circles and cliques, or evengilized by "?well meaning?" campus crusaders. Their fellow students taught them that it was okey to insult others, they took it one step further and turned it into assault.

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