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TheHellequin
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07:06:16 Jun 14 2008
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I was considering the genesis of horror fiction and came to Mary Shelley's Frankenstein. It then occurred to me that this was not just a horror story but also a science fiction story, dealing as it does with the after-effects of a scientific experiment.

Now I know it is not the first horror story but there can't have been many science fiction stories before it...so what were they?




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Whispersinthewind
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07:16:36 Jun 14 2008
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I think you are talking about the long night when Mary Shelley and her husband Percy were to partake in a contest with Dr. Polodori as well as Lord Byron. To invent a couple of horror stories. This would be where Mary Shelley invented Frankenstien from.

If any genesis started, where this genre of stories started, this would have been the perfect place to start. Out on Lake Geneva of all places. The movie based upon this night is called GOTHIC. Julian Sands starred as Percy Shelley.



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Whispersinthewind
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07:17:56 Jun 14 2008
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(Adding to post) It was on this night as well that Byron invented Dracula based upon himself, and Polodori inventing War of the Worlds believe it or not.



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DuCroix
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09:29:01 Jun 14 2008
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i think that Frankenstein was the first real SF story that is widely known because i am an insanely avid fan of SF and haven't heard of anything before that



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HellsGuardian69
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18:17:51 Jun 14 2008
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I'll have to agree i think in Frankenstein being the first one but thats rally a technicallity,it was afterall supposed to be a "scary story" contest afterall


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Jarak
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19:37:35 Jun 14 2008
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When I think of Frankenstein, horror doesn't really even enter my mind. It's more of a scifi story that some people find scary. I mean, the Borg from Star Trek are scary but Star Trek isn't a horror series.



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TumorNamedMarla
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21:03:13 Jun 14 2008
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Byron didn't invent Dracula (that was Bram Stoker) nor did Dr. Polidari invent War of the worlds (that was H. G. Wells)...re read your literary history...Dr. Polidari came up with The Vampyre, who's main character Lord Ruthven was based on Lord Byron.).



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Riallisa
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21:32:39 Jun 14 2008
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I think that about the same time that Mary Shelley wrote Frankenstein, Poe wrote a story about a moon flight - that was considered totally sci-fi in its time.

As far as horror - I think The Mysteries of Udolpho was a pretty early representative of horror writing. I'm not sure about Frankenstein as horror - or sci-fi - or fantasy - sheesh that novel fills a lot of genres! I guess some of it was pretty horrible ...



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JackofSpades83
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21:33:05 Jun 14 2008
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Couldn't you really classify some of the ancient stories of Plato as Science Fiction? Things like the story of Atlantis seem like a good candidate.

This site does say that "Frankenstein is generally recognized as the first true science fiction novel." However, another part of the site also lists some other things in the prehistory section that date as far back as the stories of Homer.

Enjoy.



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Drakontion
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00:08:28 Jun 15 2008
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One of the earliest surviving examples of SF is from the 13th century - an Arabic scientist/lawyer/physician/philosopher/scholar (busy man!) named Ibn al-Nafis wrote what is considered to one of the earliest novels altogether Theologus Autodidactus which amongst other things was the first philosophical novel, the first theological novel, the first science fiction novel, and one of the first stories to feature a feral child, desert island and coming of age plot, through which he expressed many of his religious, philosophical and scientific themes on a wide variety of subjects. Source

The story is about an autodidactic adolescent feral child who is spontaneously generated in a cave and living in seclusion on a deserted island. He eventually comes in contact with the outside world after the arrival of castaways who get shipwrecked and stranded on the island, and later take him back to the civilized world with them. The plot gradually develops into a coming-of-age story and then becomes the earliest example of a science fiction novel when it eventually reaches its climax with a catastrophic doomsday apocalypse. Source

(cut and paste because it's hard to summarise better than the existing summaries)

It's quite likely there are earlier examples of SF literature just that they haven't survived. There have been lots of book burnings throughout history - who knows what was lost in the burning of the Great Library of Alexandria for example?



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Undervampsgaze
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00:43:32 Jun 15 2008
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I agree with all those whom said that Frankenstein was more scifi and not horror. But i am thinking the reason for that is because now a days there are movies out there that are spine tingling and have better graphics so yeah we think Frankenstein is pretty tame now a days.



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TumorNamedMarla
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00:50:58 Jun 15 2008
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Well the topic of discussion is the NOVEL Frankenstein...movies weren't invented yet.



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dabbler
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01:12:12 Jun 15 2008
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I am with the fusion angle, HP Lovecraft blurred the line between the two genres as well,



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STABB666
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23:26:22 Jun 15 2008
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TheHellequin,

I have to disagree with you on this, since I don't see Shelley as a science fiction writer, nor the novel being entirely of that subject.

While it does lend itself to a critical examination of man's use of science and the potential for abuse of these newly founded 'arts', it is more of a critique of human nature and the horrors which it has wrought over the ages, the prejudices which still exist and the inherent weaknesses of emotion that we can all suffer from.

It is a fiction about science, using methods and devices which were not beyond the bounds of what was capable at the time. There was no real invention of ideas, but more of a dark twist on sociology.


For me, the first real Science Fiction was from Jules Verne, who reached beyond the conventional and agreed technological limitations of the time, and produced unheard of ideas in terms of exploration and machines.



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Warrior
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03:32:16 Jun 16 2008
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He may not have been the first but Cyrano de Bergerac wrote (rougly translated) "Voyage to the surface of the Moon" and "The States of the Moon and Sun" (Des états de la Lune et du Soleil) in the 1600's.



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TumorNamedMarla
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05:47:18 Jun 16 2008
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http://condor.depaul.edu/~dsimpson/awtech/scifi.htm

This article may help out those who are debating what came first...the Frankenstein or the Jules Verne.



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MasterEmmanuelo
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06:48:40 Jun 16 2008
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The Golem, created in medieval times is a man or monster made out of clay and infused with life in order to defend the Jewish people, in some ways this is a science fiction, horror, and moral story, since the creature turns upon its creators.



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Whispersinthewind
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08:28:57 Jun 16 2008
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Yes, but once again the analogy of the Golem/Frankenstien still comes into play. I am in half agreeance with Stabb. He makes a very good point on the blurring of lines. H G Wells' telling of the Time Machine hits the nail on the head. But, are we discussing sci-fi horror, or just plain sci-fi genesis effect as to where it came from?



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MasterEmmanuelo
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23:42:46 Jun 16 2008
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If we are to speak of Sci-Fi, we do have to mention Jules Verne, his writing envisioned atomic submarines, the moon landing and others, certainly the stuff dreams are made of



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RaggedyAndy
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05:19:24 Jun 18 2008
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Sorry about that. I screwed up on the a href here, so here's the link:

http://scifi.about.com/od/scififantasy101/tp/GreatMoments.htm



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Jamie
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23:59:36 Jun 19 2008
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Back to soulshroude's post......that is interesting! That Dracula and Frankenstein were born within the same circle of friends, right there at that time. Cool! =)



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MorbidMorte
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01:15:26 Jun 21 2008
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I'd have to think people have been telling stories that are science fiction for thousands of years therefore making what the first one was undetermenable.



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TumorNamedMarla
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03:27:41 Jun 21 2008
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People tend to mistake fantasy or horror/scary novels as Sci-Fi.Much like the movies they mistake for Sci-Fi,they tend to bunch similar stories together and call them science fiction.Jules Verne wrote amazing stories that fell into the sci-fi catagory...much like H.G.Wells...but there are many other authors that wrote deeply loved novels.
Rudard Kipling wrote science fiction stories as well.. But it is not this explicit use of science and technology in some of his stories that makes Kipling so important to modern science fiction.


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Isis101
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03:34:09 Jun 21 2008
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Frankenstein IS considered to be the first sci-fi story.



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TumorNamedMarla
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03:35:04 Jun 21 2008
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Maybe so...but Verne and Wells wrote Sci-Fi years before Frankstein was even thought of.



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Isis101
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03:37:15 Jun 21 2008
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Actually, Shelly was before Verne and Welles by about 80 years...



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TumorNamedMarla
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03:43:42 Jun 21 2008
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Oh My Damn...I wasn't thinking about the dates they wrote...but the dates they lived and died...my mistake.



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MorbidMorte
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04:14:00 Jun 21 2008
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I'd have to applaude that thought DW ;]



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TumorNamedMarla
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04:19:14 Jun 21 2008
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Yeah...now my brain hurts...and the migraine isn't helping with that.


Please continue the discussion of sci fi



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LumiyaOfTheSith
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17:18:40 Jun 21 2008
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At the time when Mary Shelley wrote Frankenstein, scientists were finding about electricity and how sparks could move the muscles on a dead frog.. quite big in the headlines of the day.

This was also a story of man overreaching his bounds and playing God, and it is very much a horror story of taking various body parts and stitching together a human being and bringing life into it through scientific means.

Many layers to this story.



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divinemisskat
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18:42:22 Jun 21 2008
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It would seem to me that Beowulf might have been the first Sci/fi type of story...demons, magical spells...that sort of thing.



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TumorNamedMarla
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07:27:49 Jun 23 2008
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From the Introduction page of Beowulf.

Beowulf : The Poem

The poem called Beowulf was composed sometime between the middle of the seventh and the end of the tenth century of the first millennium,the language that is today called Anglo-Saxon or Old English.

Basically the book length poem was written a LONG time before Frankenstein.


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MorbidMorte
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20:09:44 Jun 23 2008
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Beowulf is probably one of the oldest sci-fi tales that has been written down. And probably one of the best remembered.



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Vespers
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I have to say that I think Beowulf falls more into the genre of fantasy than it does Sci-fi. Demons, spells, etc.. really doesn't have much to do with Science fiction when you think about what science fiction means:

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - science fiction
–noun a form of fiction that draws imaginatively on scientific knowledge and speculation in its plot, setting, theme, etc.


Even when you look at the fantasy aspect of science fiction:

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - science fiction
n. A literary or cinematic genre in which fantasy, typically based on speculative scientific discoveries or developments, environmental changes, space travel, or life on other planets, forms part of the plot or background.


Beowulf isn't based on speculative science, not it's plot, background, enviroment, etc..

Unless there is something else, I'd have to stick with Frankenstein as possibly being a first in the Sci-Fi genre.



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Isis101
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I agree, Vespers - two differnt genres. Fantasy stories have been around a lot longer than sci-fi.



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TumorNamedMarla
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Science fiction is based on possible facts of science in a fictional form.Monsters,demons,witches and super human strength are all science fictional subjects.Yes fantasy isn't always considered to be in the realms of science fiction but Beowulf could be riding the fringes of science fiction.

Frankenstein -- is it science fiction,fantasy or horror??
Why can't it be all three...science fiction side-- taking the parts of dead bodies and putting them together to form a new human.Possible because of organ transplants now.
Fantasy-- making a new human from the parts of dead humans...using electricity to re animate flesh.Playing GOD.
Horror-- creating new life from dead people.



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Vespers
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I have to disagree with you, Darkwolfman.

You said:

Science fiction is based on possible facts of science in a fictional form.Monsters,demons,witches and super human strength are all science fictional subjects.


Yes, Science Fiction is based/rooted on possible or speculative science. If you read the definitions of what Science Fiction is, it basically states this.

However, monsters, demons, witches, and superhuman strength does not have roots in known or speculative science, as of yet. That is still the stuff of fantasy.

Frankenstein is such a innovative piece of fiction, particularly for it's time. It can be classified as horror, possibly drama, fantasy and certainly science-fiction. That it has a plot in which electricty, re-animation, as well as a crude symbolism for organ transplants (as you said) is a part of it's foundation, makes this story Sci-fi in my opinion. None of that is a part of fantasy in the way witches, demons, monsters, etc.. are.

So yes, I am sorry to say that I disagree.



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TumorNamedMarla
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22:56:32 Jun 23 2008
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Thats your opinion.

But it is MY Belief.



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TumorNamedMarla
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23:10:43 Jun 23 2008
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Carl Freedman
Hail Mary: On the Author of Frankenstein and the Origins of Science Fiction
Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley. Frankenstein; or, the Modern Prometheus. Ed. D.L. MacDonald and Kathleen Scherf. Second Edition. Orchard Park, NY: Broadview, 1999. 364 pp. $7.95 pbk.

-----. The Last Man. Ed. Anne McWhir. Orchard Park, NY: Broadview, 1996. xliii + 425 pp. $16.95 pbk.

Betty T. Bennett and Stuart Curran, eds. Mary Shelley in her Times. Baltimore: John Hopkins UP, 2000. xiii + 311 pp. $45.00 hc.

Michael Eberle-Sinatra, ed. Mary Shelley’s Fictions: From FRANKENSTEIN to FALKNER. New York: St. Martin’s, 2000. xxvi + 250 pp. $65.00 hc.

John Williams. Mary Shelley: A Literary Life. New York: St. Martin’s, 2000. ix + 209 pp. $35.00 hc.

Mary Shelley, born Mary Wollstonecraft Godwin, was the daughter of two important writers and the wife of a third; and this extraordinary set of personal literary bonds is matched by the many connections by which her place in literary history has been defined. To some, she is of interest primarily as representing one of the high points of the Gothic tradition; to others, she is above all a pioneer of women’s literature in English; still others see her mainly as one of the chief practitioners of the Romantic novel; and then, of course, there are those of us for whom Mary Shelley is first and foremost the founder of science fiction.

Though Brian Aldiss was not the first to detect a link between Mary Shelley and sf, his ground-breaking argument in Billion Year Spree (1973) for Frankenstein (1818) as the ur-text of the genre is directly or indirectly responsible for much of the currency that this idea has enjoyed for more than a quarter century. Not, of course, that anything like unanimity on the issue has ever been reached. Some commentators place the beginning of sf later, with Poe, or Verne, or Wells, or even with the Gernsbackian pulp of the 1920s, when the term "science fiction" was coined; contrariwise, others insist that the genre can be traced to Milton and Dante, and even all the way back to Homer and The Epic of Gilgamesh. But Frankenstein remains most widely accepted as the founding text of sf, and it seems to me that the arguments of Aldiss and other Mary-Shelleyans remain persuasive.


This makes up for opinions on the topic.



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MorbidMorte
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23:18:24 Jun 23 2008
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I don't think fantasy and sci-fi are all too different from each other. I mean, Frankenstien or however it's spelled can be considered fantasy insofar as what the good Doctor did to create him could never truly happen -- fantasy ther'.



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Morrigon
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A belief can be argued as being near identical to an opinion. Having a belief does not make your argument more valid.

I do agree with Vespers, there is a thick line between SciFi and actual Science. Fantasy is something that has been imagined for a story or..."belief". Science is organ transplants, cloning and whatnot. Simple concepts.



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gothmarionette
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There have been sci fi stories for quite awhile goig back to the 13th century. However it as writers such as HG Wells and Jules Verne that really got the movement going and popularized. Even Edgar Allen Poe wrote a story about a flight to the moon. Moon trips tended to be the earliest sci fi stories.



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DasWolf
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17:16:55 Jun 24 2008
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Some ancient society's had carvings or paintings of flying saucers. How far back do you want to go?



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MorbidMorte
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19:54:23 Jun 24 2008
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DasWolf -

I don't think there is a limit on time. -nod-



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STABB666
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DarkWolfman,

Though I don't wish to impinge upon your beliefs, I still have to disagree with yours and others' stance and subsequently, the opinion of those commentators on Aldiss, which you have cleverly hijacked in order to shore up your position on this.

I would prefer to take the story into the correct context, showing the influences upon Mary Shelly, and the sources for the entire concept.

The idea of taking organs from the dead in grave robbing was quite well established in early Victorian England, with Madame de Staël's 'De l'Allemagne' already having proposed that a dead man could be brought back to life by scientists, itself based on Erasmus Darwin's experiments in electrophysiology.

Shelly used these as tools in her 'ghost story', bearing in mind that this goal became the primary focus of the enforced little get together of herself, Percy, Byron and Polidori.

The same night that prompted Mary Shelly, also produced The Vampyre, another seminal work of horror fiction. Shelly herself even states that she finally found inspiration from a nightmare after the events of that night.

"I saw the pale student of unhallowed arts kneeling beside the thing he had put together. I saw the hideous phantasm of a man stretched out, then, on the working of some powerful engine, show signs of life His success would terrify the artist; he would rush away...hope that...this thing...would subside into dead matter...he opens his eyes; behold the horrid thing stands at his bedside, opening his curtains."

This is probably a subconscious expression of her anger at not only the embarrassment by Byron, and perceived failure to produce a comparable story, but inflects many troubles of her recent past, such as the death of her child.

The purpose of the whole set of events was clearly an intention to create a horror fiction, for which she used existent knowledge of scientific concepts, intermingled with a scathing criticism of human nature, a point of view heavily influenced by her mother and Percy Shelly.

Even Aldiss himself explains that he "...hoped in a way to 'redeem' the book from such gross caricatures." (of horror), and that "She (Shelly) wants to deal with the 'secret fears of our nature.' I've always thought yes, that's one of the things that real science fiction does, is treat 'the secret fears of our nature. It's by no means only about the future.", which prompted him to write Frankenstein Unbound, a definite Science Fiction, but his justification can be argued down to the point that the story is intended as horror, even if the meaning of 'Science Fiction' may be interpreted in another context.

In modernity, it's clear that the current definition does not support Frankenstein as such, but instead as a horror fiction using the science of the times as a backdrop to the wider context of the failings of human nature, and the dangers of playing with unknown sciences (hence the alternative title of 'The Modern Prometheus').



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Vespers
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Darkwolfman-

That is alright if you want to believe that Beowulf is a science fiction story. I disagree. I do not believe that monsters, witches, and the sort are rooted in either known or speculative science which makes that story, in my opinion, more along the lines of fantasy. I can't say for certain that Frankenstein is indeed sci-fi, or the first of that genre, however, it makes more sense to me that it could be included where as Beowulf, with what science fiction defines, would not. And, like Morrigan said, belief and opinion - a very fine line, neither is really more valid than the other unless there is a basis of fact to back up or found either the opinion or belief.

We will just have to agree to disagree. :)



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catseye
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00:33:30 Jun 25 2008
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sf was something which developed gradually.jules verne is the first person to officially develope it as a concept.cyrano de bergeract wrote a story about him going to the moon.



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GrievousAngel
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17:47:12 Jul 04 2008
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Gulliver's Travels - Part III: A Voyage to Laputa, Balnibarbi, Glubbdubdrib, Luggnagg and Japan
August 5, 1706 — April 16, 1710

Gulliver has pirates as a crew and they maroon him on a desolate rocky island, near India. Fortunately he is rescued by the flying island of Laputa, a kingdom devoted to the arts of music and mathematics but utterly unable to use these for practical ends. The device described simply as The Engine is possibly the first literary description in history of something resembling a computer. Laputa's method of throwing rocks at rebellious surface cities also seems the first time that aerial bombardment was conceived as a method of warfare. Gulliver is then taken to Balnibarbi to await a Dutch trader who can take him on to Japan and from there to England. While there, he tours the country as the guest of a low-ranking courtier and sees the ruin brought about by blind pursuit of science without practical results in a satire on the Royal Society and its experiments. He travels to a magician's dwelling and discusses history with the ghosts of historical figures, the most obvious restatement of the "ancients versus moderns" theme in the book. He also encounters the struldbrugs, unfortunates who are immortal and very, very old. The trip is otherwise reasonably free of incident and Gulliver returns home, determined to stay there for the rest of his days.

SOURCE:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulliver%27s_Travels#Part_III:_A_Voyage_to_Laputa.2C_Balnibarbi.2C_Glubbdubdrib.2C_Luggnagg_and_Japan



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xLoganx
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23:23:11 Jul 04 2008
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I Think There Is A difference between Sci-fi And Horror But Horror Can Include Sci-fi.
Frankenstein For example But Death Race Would Be Sci-Fi Not Horror.
It Goes Beyond Mary Shelly And The Likes Of Her To When Our Cave Men Brothers Were Afraid Of The Dark Because They Had No Idea Of What It Held.
Man Has Always Tried To Explain Their fears and Blame Them On Something Else So As Not To Emasculate Them Selves.



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Profane
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21:02:06 Jul 06 2008
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I would say that Science-Fiction stories have been around long before Frankenstein. Science was not always what it is today. I would hold that the story of Icarus and his wings was Science-Fiction, with a bit of mythology mixed into it, for example.

'Scary' doesn't have to be Science-Fiction, and Science-Fiction doesn't have to be 'scary', it just has a tendency to play upon what we as a race do not understand. As well, we fear what we do not understand in most situations.



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catseye
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01:18:15 Jul 07 2008
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jules verne is the first person to come with SF.his books are the origin of the word SF.



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Doru
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03:15:06 Jul 07 2008
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I believe "Gilgamesh" was the first written Sci-Fi. It was written in the third millennium B.C. on clay tablets.

"Gilgamesh comes to the entry to the land of the gods, an other-world, which is under a mountain, guarded by a Man-scorpion and his mate. Gilgamesh gains entrance to the mountain and travels for leagues in the dark until he arrives in the jeweled garden of the gods."

From the following link:
http://novaonline.nv.cc.va.us/eli/eng251/gilgameshstudy.htm



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vampireXmarr
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18:35:25 Jul 07 2008
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I'd say Gilgamesh was fantasy or myth



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vampireXmarr
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18:39:36 Jul 07 2008
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I'd say Frankenstein is more about scientific ethics or philosophy.



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Doru
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19:17:21 Jul 07 2008
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Sci-Fi is fantasy or myth...!



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Vespers
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21:35:32 Jul 07 2008
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I'm sorry, but, Sci-fi is not fantasy or myth. Sci-fi can have fantasy aspects, but only when those aspects are based on either speculative science, or scientific discoveries or developments, environmental changes, space travel, or life on other planets that either help form the plot or background of the story. Gee, don't people read prior posts when they add to threads?


Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - science fiction
–noun a form of fiction that draws imaginatively on scientific knowledge and speculation in its plot, setting, theme, etc.

Even when you look at the fantasy aspect of science fiction, it's still not fantasy. Fantasy is it's own genere:

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - science fiction
n. A literary or cinematic genre in which fantasy, typically based on speculative scientific discoveries or developments, environmental changes, space travel, or life on other planets, forms part of the plot or background.




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Daverat
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23:09:02 Jul 07 2008
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These are all Horror stories or at least the certainly have terrifying elements in them:

The Bible
The Tragical History of Doctor Faustus by Christopher Marlowe (1592)
The Tragedy of Macbeth by William shakespeare (1606)
The White Devil by John Webster (1612)
The Castle of Otranto by Horace Walpol (1764)
Caleb Williams by William Godwin (1794)
The Monk by Matthew Gregory Lewis (1796)
Northanger Abbey by Jane Austen (1817)
Melmoth the Wanderer by Charles Maturin (1820)



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MorbidMorte
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01:49:38 Jul 08 2008
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Daveret -


Horror and Sci-Fi are different by a milestone.


Also, I don't think the 'Bible' could be considered horror...



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