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Ideas on 'The Meaning of Life'
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trepidation
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22:48:06 Aug 22 2008
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Ok so we know that we are all here for a reason, i mean 'here' as in the earth. But what are your opinions on why we are here?

what is our purpose?

I think

we are here to learn, free will, do as we please, but also discover what we really are.




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STABB666
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22:50:25 Aug 22 2008
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You contradict yourself.

If we are here for a set purpose, then how can we have 'free will'?

The two are mutually exclusive.

Unless you have an idea on how to reconcile them?



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cadrewolf
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23:26:35 Aug 22 2008
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to learn and live and eventually die, not knowing the meaning of true life only the suffering of the society which we live.



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Andie
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23:29:58 Aug 22 2008
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To live and to learn from others.

Not collecting materials, you cant bring them in your coffin anyway :)



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InADarkPlace
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23:35:46 Aug 22 2008
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I honestly am not sure why we are here. Although i do know that each day brings new knowlege from each person we come in contact with.
So maybe it is to learn and guide others through what we have learned.
I would say to try to leave the world a bit better but to be honest it seems to be in a worse shamblers as each day goes on.



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Undervampsgaze
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00:15:12 Aug 23 2008
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We are here to learn and discover ourselves.



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xONYXCRUISERx
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00:18:10 Aug 23 2008
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Life is a series of tests which we pass and fail, and the Aim In View is to Exit, hopefully with the Good Acts outweighing the Bad, and to move away from such things as covetousness, selfishness, inanity, etc.

Ade


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xxBillyxx
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04:30:05 Aug 23 2008
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we are here to learn and love



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EternallyNotYours
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04:33:20 Aug 23 2008
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Who really knows "why" we are here. I have contemplated this extensively and yet have not come up with any answers but only more questions!

If we are here to live and learn why is that the learning process is endless. You can never truly "learn" everything there is to know. To live, what does that really mean?

We struggle to be happy to make a family to go on in life.

As to why we are here, maybe that is the million dollar question. I'm still trying to figure it out.



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Majique
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04:34:42 Aug 23 2008
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I think the meaning of life is to learn what you can about all aspects of living and your personality. To understand the true meaning of love, not the romantic kind but learning to love who you are and accept yourself on all levels.

As for free will, I believe that free will is making choices for yourself. I don't think our destiny is set in stone, I think that it is flexible and allows us to learn from our triumphs and mistakes.



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Bloodmother
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04:36:36 Aug 23 2008
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We don't have a set purpose. That is, there is no mandate for being here, as in some tricky maze wherein we discover the grand meaning of it all.

We are left to our own devices, heavily influenced and judged by the human society we are born into.

The intellect is fully integrated with the meaty, blood and bone of my existence. That is, I am a biologic being. I use my senses to the limit of their capacity to experience the world. Every breath, color, taste and sensation is a zing. Even when I'm miserable, I feel, therefore I am.



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JokersQueen
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04:47:56 Aug 23 2008
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I think we are here to learn from others, die eventually, and possibly find out if there is any form of "life" after death



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MisfitChick423
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05:01:12 Aug 23 2008
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If you have seen The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, the meaning of life is "42".

Just joking.

I think the meaning of life is to live your life the way you want to, and have no one tell you otherwise.



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DeadMemories
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05:03:51 Aug 23 2008
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this is just my thoughts on it but i think there are many different reasons for us being here. i can't really say why we are here or what our purpose is but i do believe there is a reason for everything. I do believe we are just a piece of a much bigger puzzle in life



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LadyElectra
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06:10:42 Aug 23 2008
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We are here to learn, live, and know the meaning of life and the paths we choose to live without anyone getting in the middle of it. Once death comes then others would be born to learn, live, and love the way they choose as well



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FelixFelix
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08:32:52 Aug 23 2008
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I would posit that the human race is the happy accident of genetic evolution and therefore has no meaning. We could just as easily still be primordial ooze were it not for a series of random events that given the vastness of the universe and the billions of years it has taken, was bound to happen at some point somewhere. Let's call it the same principle in the theory that states:

If you took a billion monkeys and gave them a billion typewriters and a billion years, there's a good chance one of them would randomly type out a Shakespeare play.



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xONYXCRUISERx
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09:40:23 Aug 23 2008
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One thing we all know, is at the End Of It All, all secrets then will be revealed; Something to look forward to...;)

Ade


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DeadMemories
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09:41:21 Aug 23 2008
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yes but somethings are better left unknown



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xONYXCRUISERx
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09:43:03 Aug 23 2008
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After the 'moment of death' we will know many thing, on the 'other side', but yes, certain things for now are perhaps better left 'unknown'...;)

Ade


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MariusLestat
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09:44:34 Aug 23 2008
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I agree with mankind being an accident.
But I also think that we are here for our purpose, can't deny that.
I think that my purpose on earth is to try to reach ultimate happiness.
Some persons consider their purpose being helping the earth and humans and animals, but there really are no unselfish actions.
Then there are those who consider life meaningless.
Ah well, I really can't answer to why that is because I have never truly given up..
Hmm, I realize what I write is really dopey.



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DeadMemories
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09:44:53 Aug 23 2008
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wouldn't it suck to die and find out 'oh shit, there is no other side...there is just emptyness' lol



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xONYXCRUISERx
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09:46:06 Aug 23 2008
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For all we know that could well be the case, to find that this is all a nonsense, but as yet this is 'unknown'...;)

Ade


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DeadMemories
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09:55:15 Aug 23 2008
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i'm sure that there is much more out there we don't know. we as humans are so small to the universe that we might as not even matter.



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trepidation
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10:01:51 Aug 23 2008
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Stabb, We think we have free will yes, we go about our lives doing are own thing, so hence the thought of free will.
As for the purpose we are here is to carry on doing what we do, learning, teaching, and thought.

Contradiction yes but unless i am mistaken, you can see what im on about with the free will bit.



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trepidation
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10:11:21 Aug 23 2008
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As we think we have 'free will' and in a way we do. Right we all have a path to follow, and we will always come to cross roads, and this is where the 'free will' kicks in, we need to choose which way to go, right or left, wrong or right we make them choices which in essence is 'free will'



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DeadMemories
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10:14:06 Aug 23 2008
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a fork in the road of life



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trepidation
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10:18:13 Aug 23 2008
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Exactly, and we need to make them choices, ti make the wrong or right choice.


you can choose one path or another 'free will'



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DeadMemories
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10:23:05 Aug 23 2008
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so then noone should have the right to be able to take over another persons rights to life



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trepidation
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10:28:44 Aug 23 2008
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Yes they shouldnt but its not the way the games played sadly



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DeadMemories
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10:33:21 Aug 23 2008
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so can we really call it free will if we don't have control of our own life?



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STABB666
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10:33:57 Aug 23 2008
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trepidation,

Having choices which are set within a limited range of options, is not the same as free will. The freedom which you claim here is illusory.

If one has a specific purpose that must be acheived, then that purpose eliminates the very idea of true freedom, in that the destination has been predestined, regardless of the path that the person is 'free' to travel in order to arrive there.



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trepidation
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10:36:11 Aug 23 2008
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No but we can think that it is, as we dont like the idea of someone controlling us, or the fact that we have walked these paths before.



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DeadMemories
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10:36:38 Aug 23 2008
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each path could lead him to a diferent place



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trepidation
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10:39:49 Aug 23 2008
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yes it does as we know life is not just straight lines, its a maze, like Ade said up there its a series of test hard and easy long and sort.



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DeadMemories
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10:42:45 Aug 23 2008
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a maze that will never fully be figured out in time.



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xONYXCRUISERx
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10:43:37 Aug 23 2008
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In one sense, we only have our own 'reason to exist'..;)


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STABB666
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10:45:23 Aug 23 2008
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ChemicalSuicide,

I'm not really caring to engage in you're one-liner form of 'discussion', but just to respond to your point;

If a person has an ultimate purpose set for them, i.e. a 'meaning' to their life, then it cannot be said that there is true free will within the confines of that set goal.

It doesn't matter if you have two, or two million possible paths to this goal. The fact is, if there is a goal that we are all set to acheive, either collectively, or as individuals, then we cannot be truly free to decide not to reach that goal, hence we are not free, but in fact enslaved to that purpose.



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DeadMemories
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10:45:28 Aug 23 2008
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and what if it is given up? can your will to furfill your own destinay play any part of it?



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trepidation
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10:56:40 Aug 23 2008
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Stabb do you see my point, we choose the right and wrong, left and right, what is not controlled by us is, the straight and narrow, we cannot control the people we meet.



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xONYXCRUISERx
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10:59:34 Aug 23 2008
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That is the sheer beauty and mystery of it, T, the 'variables', the 'unplanned', and part of the Great Adventure is to somehow blunder through it all, in the hope of making the right choices and finding some form of 'meaning', if only for ourselves.

Ade


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trepidation
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11:01:41 Aug 23 2008
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blunder through yes but we still have to make choices



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xONYXCRUISERx
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11:05:35 Aug 23 2008
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In the sense of 'blundering', T, what I me is we do not have complete 'clear sight', as to All knowledge, so in that sense, we are 'blundering', to the best of our abilities in our own particular searches...;)


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trepidation
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11:08:34 Aug 23 2008
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ahh yeah ok, so the path is unclear ahead, we have not seen it before, so we dont know where we are going? what it may lead to or what we will do.



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xONYXCRUISERx
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11:10:15 Aug 23 2008
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I feel that the 'Unknown' is supposed to Be, as in one sense it is a 'discipline' and a 'grounding', to remind us how relatively 'insignificant' we are, and thus to temper us enough to keep our feet on the ground, perhaps?

Ade


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STABB666
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trepidation,

I understand what you are saying in regards to the 'freedom of choice', but at the same time, this is not the same as 'free will'.

The choices made will be directly influenced by the goal which is sought. We cannot have ultimate purpose and still be free. Even if we choose our goal for ourselves, we still are setting a target which we will work towards, thereby enslaving ourselves to that purpose.

Whatever decisions we then make in our lives, will have to lead us towards our goal in some fashion.

The alternative is that there is no purpose, no meaning, just random chance interactions creating an anarchic evolutionary function.

Which then is what would allow us the freedom to choose new goals, set new targets, to change whenever we feel like it. In this respect, perhaps we can have free will.

The point is, that if you see a 'purpose', a defined meaning, then you begin to become limited by that very concept, reducing your options and your freedom.

You submit your will to that purpose and it is no longer 'free', even if you chose the purpose for yourself.



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trepidation
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11:13:07 Aug 23 2008
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Yes the unknown can scare some people, the fact that it is unknown it can a boundary to some and a gate way to others



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xONYXCRUISERx
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11:14:25 Aug 23 2008
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The Unknown could be seen with Hope, as there is the core of Belief, in that we head toward it in the hope of Good.

Ade


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trepidation
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11:19:42 Aug 23 2008
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indeed it could be seen as hope so yes head towards it in good faith, head on strong and see, what happens.



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borked
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12:05:55 Aug 23 2008
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I agree trepidation-

Send strength sufficient for our day,
And point our knowledge on its way,
O da quod jubes, Domine.
--W.H. Auden



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Sinora
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14:19:15 Aug 23 2008
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Perhaps the ultimate goal is as simple as doing the best we can with what we have ?

I think we only see a very small part of a very big picture when we are here.


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xRoguex
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14:24:28 Aug 23 2008
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I believe the meaning of life is to learn, to grow as an individual and to experience as much of life as possible. To develop yourself as a person and learn to love who you really are.

As for death and dying. Well in my opinion we already know the secrets and answers, only part of our soul is here the rest being the higher self knows all there is to know. But there is no point in just knowing everything if you don't experience it as well.



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DeathsEmbrace
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14:42:17 Aug 23 2008
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Live to be alive, enjoy yourself, make the most of what you have and make a name for yourself in history so you are never trully gone completely



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DeMONic314
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15:12:05 Aug 23 2008
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Good question - one I have pondered often...

Here are some of my conclusions:

First there is the biological meaning - true for all life forms on this planet. Live to survive long enough to reproduce. The heat and radiation that constantly bombards the surface of this planet makes it impossible for complex molecules to stay intact indefinitely. I find it absolutely amazing that information (stored in DNA) has found a way to trick that caveat and has still existed for 3.5 + billion years now.

Therefore - "survive to reproduce" is the core meaning of life. It is written into each one of our 4 trillion cells. It drives and governs most everything we do. Its why we eat and desire to consume, its why we love and desire to be loved.

This In my next post I will talk about the conjugate of this, and probably the crux of the question, - what gives life meaning...



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DeMONic314
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15:37:11 Aug 23 2008
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What gives life meaning...

First off - I believe, the answer to this question is one you have to conclude on your own, the only right answer is one that works for you. Your individuality is the diversity that will enable our species to survive until the end of the universe. (Just keep in mind the stupid behaviors and choices are the ones that could cause you to fall into the "other side" of the natural selection wheel)

Second - I belive life is meant to be lived. Every second is precious. Every experience, no matter how small, is precious. Sometimes I will stop, take a breath, and just let myself completly enjoy that single breath like it is christmas.

I am going to digress for a moment, and point out a stupid behavior along these lines. Often, here in the forums (and elsewhere in the world), I hear people unbeliveably preoccupied with death and the afterlife. I have been there myself - until I realized how stupid all of that is: starting on the day we die - we will have an infinite number of lifetimes to comtemplate death and the afterlife.

In my next post, I will share as to what gives my life meaning... (I need more coffee first)...



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DeMONic314
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15:59:37 Aug 23 2008
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Here is what give my life meaning - so far anyway...

Learning and understanding as much as I can about this universe while I am here no matter how big or who small. (My educational background is in astrophysics and I work in nanotechnology)

Contributing to the advancement of the species.

Understanding as much as I can about human technology and history.

But mostly what gives my life meaning are the people I love and who genuinely care about me. Especially Cathy, my wife of 20 years. She is the focal point of my universe.

But as I write this, and through the optical distortions of welling tears, I realize there are a lot of things still very fucked up about my life. I think I am going to turn off the computer now and work on some of those...



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hottubmolly
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i think our reason for being here is like any other parasite, to sustain ourselves at the cost of our host. it is not a mutual benefit like most parasite to host relationships in fact we might even be a deadly virus upon this planet since even after we are gone there is going to be evidence of our presence long after.

er

i mean we are here to ... uh .. breed? yeah thats it.. *shifty eyes*



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SireZombie
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17:08:30 Aug 23 2008
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To me, the meaning of life... is for us to live, learn,love and die. We do have free will as was said, yet we choices that we make. We go along life and we make choices and we choose paths to go down, which in turn we learn from those choices and those paths that we choose. Where in the end we have hopefully made good decisions and choices that have led us to a good place in our lives.

To me Free will is just that, we have the will to either live or die, we have the will to change our lives or not. We have the will to either follow the rules and conform or do our own thing and live by our own rules.

YET, I feel that no one has Total Free Will, why? because just that there are rules, there or circumstances that cause us to be tied to a purpose and outcome of our lives in order to make it a better life or not.

People use the term Free Will alot yet, I have not met anyone who has actually had total Free will.... unless you consider the ones who kill them seves or others to be of their FREE WILL.... I do not I feel they just have made the decision to do whatever they please to go against rules therefore they are also trapped within a purpose for thier life. To kill, to be evil etc. They Chose that path.

So does anyone really know what free will is and that have actually used it.
Maybe that is our Meaning to life... for us to learn and understand what FREE WILL truly is then we will be complete and evolve to a much higher being or existance. Just something I have always wondered myself.



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XLostXLokiX
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17:37:30 Aug 23 2008
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Only meaning in life is what you put into it and how you see and want it to be



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Bloodmother
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18:20:08 Aug 23 2008
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Free will is tauted by all three monotheistic religions, and even if you're not religious by those standards, in our society their overweening philosophies (which are similar in the free will department) are so integrated into our systems, they're hard to shake.

We want to be autonomous, to feel free, but aside from the religious aspects, we're hemmed in by each other, limited by language, and as Staab pointed out, even our own choices.

These are not new questions. Philosophers like Kant, Kierkergaard, Plato and Neitzche have wrestled with them. Psychologists and behaviorists have joined the fray with self-determination theory. There's a metaphysics lab at Stanford where a physicist has devised an equation to solve the problem of wtf are we doing here.

if you choose life, then you have your answer. That has to be enough, because it's all we have to work with.



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RaggedyAndy
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I am not sure if there is a "meaning to life" other than it just is; perhaps this is because I think the Theory of Evolution makes more sense than the story of Creation as it is written and explained in the Bible. We are here due to the progression of the Evolutionary cycle. With each cycle, generation of humankind that passes, and technological advances the "reasons for each of us being here" changes.



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Sevenn
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I thank Bloodmother for the mention of several people who have put some thought into this question beyond the average mediocre angst. I will mention that in any discusion of free will it ought to be stated that Augustine, (St. Augustine for you faithful) must be mentioned in any discussion regarding free will as he was the architect of the concept in Western civilization. That means two important things. First, that we are understanding the concept itself of "free will" through distinctly Westernized thought and second that in order to have the discussion properly, one ought to be familiar with the writings of that man that introduced the concept. It never ceases to amaze me that an epistemological platform is introduced and through time, usually not even much time, people shave down the idea into what they want to hear. This, I think, is a true statement of human nature.

About Augustine, first you should understand that free will in and of itself is a religious concept. According to Augustine it is a gift of G*d, not arbitrarily implanted in us as an accident of birth...a considered trait FROM G*D that humans possess. If you like, it could be resultant from the eating of the tree of knowledge, perhaps your dogma is more suited to merely thinking it is a part of divine creation. However, in its original concept it is a G*d given gift. Therefore, I think to explain concepts or "the meaning of life" without acknowledging G*D as a factor, you ought to have a better explanation for it than Augustine: and I'm doubting that. So, we can say, that even if we consider ourselves agnostics or atheists now, you must give creedence to your social programming and acknowledge that religious dogma institutionally pervades our social consciousness whether we give it credit or not.

That being said, the concept of free will is a very "Western" concept. Without explaining the difference (as I'm not being paid) I will simply say that as you read through this thread you notice how almost everyone says, "It is my purpose too [blank]" "I am here to [blank].Western culture is highly individualized; we focus on ourselves as the epicenter of the universe and look out on the rest of the world unfolding. Many parts of the rest of the world do not understand this concept, nor do they embrace the idea of "free will" as commonly understood as being anything but a selfish disruption to the harmony of a greater society.

Third, you should keep in mind that Augustine himself did not believe in FREE WILL in the sense that there was only one mind making a choice. He was a Catholic and therefore consistently acknowledged the fallibility of man and he did so regarding free will as well. Augustine speaks to the idea that "man" has two wills...that the will of the soul is not entire in and of itself. "The mind gives an order to the body and the body obeys immediately. The mind gives an order to the mind and there is resistance...so it is not an absurdity partly to will and partly not to will; it is rather a sickness of the soul which is weighed down by habit so that it cannot rise up in its entirety, lifted aloft by the truth. So the reason why there are two wills is because one of them is not entire, and the other has what the other lacks." If this is the case, you cannot ever distinguish between making choices based on your own true free will versus making choices based on your instinct and habit and therefore can never confirm that you are actually exercising free will. That if you are traveling down a path of pre-destination, it is of your own making, not one of divine design.

For me, the meaning of life is its own end. The meaning of life is to live: to share, to experience, to suffer, to feel, to move. I do not live my life with the expectation of a reward later. Most people do; even if they think the reward is knowledge, or "simply getting an answer". To me, this always keeps us focused towards death and dying, which is why I generally tend to eschew organized religion. I am not interested in focusing my life on death. I am happy now. I try to polish the eternal mirror of my soul with things I know to be good and true, and I will leave the rest up to the progression of the universe. That idea unsettles alot of people, their will to power resists that notion of "not knowing", but seriously, thats the reality, why disrupt your eternal reprieve worrying about things?



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ElphieDarkheart
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We exist just for the experience of life. Loving, learning, laughing, bringing in new life.



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Sevenn
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See, ^^ I am astounded by the complete hedonism inherent in modern Western thinking. Buddha would say that we cannot reach Nirvana until we realize that the world is pain and suffering and can come to peace with it. Many Eastern philosophies teach that we are here to perfect our virtue and morality through service to others...how in the world can it be such a pervasive line of thought that we are simply here to frollic through the fields like nymphs...laughing and loving. Is the meaning of life that frivolous? Do we learn anything striving for a uniform state of mind? Are we so afraid to suffer pain that we cant acknowledge we learn from its lessons? I regard it as a simplistic and hopeful fantasy that we are just here to learn how to love as I've read so many times in this thread. I did not mean to single out Elphie, I was just referring to that post as an example of what has already been written 50 times in this thread.



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19:53:19 Aug 23 2008
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I've always been of the opinion that there is no true 'meaning' of life; we're here because it's possible for us to be. We evolved, we continue to exist, and beyond that, why worry? Those who go about pondering the meaning of life too much forget to live it.



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Lance7
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I think we are here to see who we are and to see what our purpose is on this earth. We are put through test to see how we fair. We learn and adapt to everything we have come across.



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Bloodmother
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What if the meaning of life is that frivolous?

I'm not sure there is one answer to the question.

I agree with the main thrust of your argument: one has to understand the framework for addressing the question is different from culture to culture. They may all have something valid to contribute, especially for their people and the time within which their philosophy evolved.

Personally, nirvana means no more to me than heaven.

SEVENN EDIT: Well, sure I mention nirvana to bring up a cultural difference, I'm not a Buddist and I didn't mean to be "pushing" the dogma. And saying that the meaning of life "is that frivolous" is a possibility except that if we try to define life having meaning as a communal experience; that it "means" the same for everybody, and then try to describe it through individual experience it just doesn't make sense. If I individually define my own meaning of life then I can say with some certainly that the meaning of life isnt just some jolly romp, and I like it that way. Perhaps it is for others, and I pity them.



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UpirLikhyj
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STABB666:

"If we are here for a set purpose, then how can we have 'free will'?

The two are mutually exclusive.

Unless you have an idea on how to reconcile them?"



As children, we go to school and then, perhaps, on to college also for a "set purpose," do we not? Yet does that "set purpose" at all rob us of our free agency?

This mortal life is indeed a school to which we have chosen to go for the "set purpose" of learning and growing in ways not possible prior to it. This, however, does not at all take from us our "free agency" to do with this life and our bodies whatever we choose. If we choose to develop ourselves, to learn and grow, then we shall. If instead we choose to consider life as meaningless (as some foolishly consider high school and college) and waste our time playing at "recess" our entire lives, is this not also our free agency at work?

In both cases, however, we shall indeed "reap what we sow" and leave this life either having taken advantage of the opportunities for learning available for us here... or instead chosen just as freely to ignore such opportunities and, as a result, waste away our potentials.

The purpose is set: we can learn and grow strong... or we can "play," waste away our time here, and remain weak. The choice, together with the consequences thereof for either good or bad, is and always shall be... ours.



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alixaryon
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I believe that everybody has their own reason of being here, and the goal is developing the means to fullfil that reason they believe they are here for. Thats ones reason of being here, fullfiling, making real, all that they belive in.


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darknessgalore
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20:47:42 Aug 23 2008
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i think we all are here for fulfilling our roles which have been written for us. we need to do everything that comes our way by choosing the right way of doing it.



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Sinora
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This is not a question I see as having a right or wrong answer.

Each of us has our own take on it, based on all kinds of experiences, be it frivolous or not, each one is valid.



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alixaryon
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21:14:11 Aug 23 2008
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This free will everybody is talking about, what does it matter really? Nothing. Am I really trapped in a goal even so if I am successful in attaining it because I want to in the first place by my self? I personally do not believe even so. I believe our free will is taken away from us at that point in which we are not capable to express our intentions/goals/ideas/feelings in attaining their purpose in functionality, and such unsuccessful state of an idea becomes automaticly suffering, because it seems unattainable. There is not free will being unsuccessful unproductive in the trying expression of ones ideas. Our free will can be, or is taken away from us at that certain point, in that moment of concentration directed toward the fullfilment of a desire, intention, purpose, this is our purpose here, but what does it matter in all, these head-breaking questions of free will, as long one is fullfiling exactly that purpose one aims at as their own idea od fullfilment, reflection of their mind, which is satisfieing to the idea/mind as a mental-physical expression/achievement, and with that the ultimate one(or many ultimate ones, one after the other), and most important as one is becoming more better at attaíning ones ideas/purpouses, the range of the free will is equally expanding, untill it can reach indefinite proportions, trough learning how to be successful in reaching the realisation of those ideas, in a determined path/purpose. It is important to fullfil that idea, to get the object/goal/idea realised, to interact with it, not to fail, as the main way of expression of our idea/mind in this life of ours and that automaticly creates a determined path of the free will, and/but in my opinion, nothing else matters, but the realisation of that idea, fully and functionally. That is our purpose here, to successfully achieve, to be successful at what we want to do, in the ultimate purpose of our perception, to be indefinitely successful, to be the number one in what ever our unique mind sees as its main idea/purpose. It is the ultimate free will, to be successful in our idea/purpouse. There is much to learn from a set path, and from the success which it would bring.



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DarkTone
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21:47:11 Aug 23 2008
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I believe we are here for change. I believe there is a higher being and it must be boring as hell to be alive for all eternity all by yourself so the higher being created us to amuse it and give it something to do.



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STABB666
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22:13:24 Aug 23 2008
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UpirLikhyj,

I readily accept what you are saying here, in terms of being free to choose our own meaning to life, whether it be wasteful or bountiful, by your example.

Using your analogy, could you consider that when a child is at school, they are bound by law to attend. They are set targets to acheive in grades and exams. They are restricted in their behaviour during schooltime, and a standard curriculum dictates what a child will learn during this time.

So here, free will means not attending school, because to do so, is to submit to an imposition upon one's freedom of action, of knowledge, and of choice to do as one pleases.

Of course, a child could willingly submit to this, in order to acheive. But often, that goal is to please a parent, or to earn respect of peers. So again, it is not really a free choice.


How are we to judge what will benefit us in the next incarnation of life, or in the afterlife?

Who can say that having the best life now, can help us after we are deceased?


Would it not be more appropriate to say that it is life experiences, how we react and cope and reflect upon them, how they shape us and how we move forward in our own selves, which are of most value to our being?

Does going to the best schools, having the highest grades and doing exactly what one is told, guarantee 'success' in a spiritual sense?

We are forged in the fires of chaos and chance events, not by the mundanity of the status quo. It is the trials, the suffering and the pain, which strips away the soft and fluffy impressions we're given into adulthood.

The bare essence of who we are rises out of adversity and proves our character to ourselves, and if you believe it, to God(s).



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Riallisa
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23:07:22 Aug 23 2008
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I think we're an accident...a bit of evolution gone awry...kinda like termites...good at what we do - but disgustingly prolific and destructive.

we've definitely gone and abused our power...



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FelixFelix
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23:09:54 Aug 23 2008
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Sevenn, If I understand you correctly, without religion or at least some form of higher belief, we are limited to habit and instinct. Merely animals and only slightly more self aware than dogs. I not only agree with this but suggest that even with religion we have no free will since our habits, instincts and even preferences and tastes (yes even our religious beliefs) are a product of our genes and our environment influencing what we think and feel. Every experience we have had combined with how our brain and body has formed, has given us the personality we have and the choices that we will make. There is 'destiny' though it is not some thread measured by the 'fates'. Our destiny is the culmination of our environment as it reacts and influences our behavior. This will ultimately decide life choices and establish where we will live, what we will do and how we will eventually die. It is of course not something to dwell upon because it shadows every decision you make and in truth makes life a little less magical. No one wants to recognize or admit that life is nothing so special or unique to the individual.



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Nightgame
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I believe we are here as a sort of experiment to allow us to explore our options, choose the direction we wish to go within a set of pre-determined boundaries. Whether this is a controlled experiment or a complete accident of nature I’m still debating with myself over.

Free Will only exists within the parameters of our own existence and in a very small form at that. I do not accept that everything has been preordained beforehand and that nothing I do can change it nor do I accept that I must accept that fate will do the choosing for me. I make a conscience choice to consider the meaning of life and thus exercise my free will over simply accepting the dogma taught by someone else.

One of biggest joys of our existence is the ability we have been given to think and question anything and everything. Choosing to exercise this ability is, in my opinion much of where our free will comes into play.



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Animmortalwound
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00:20:12 Aug 24 2008
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Procreation.

We will never know what our meaning of life is, I just think that we will know when we die.



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CryingDutchess
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The meaning of life may not necessarily have anything to do with exercising ones ability to live according to 'free will'. If there is a meaning to it all, and I struggle with this question often, I'd like to believe it would have to do with learning about ourselves and others, the world we live in and what choices we take (or don't) to better or worsen this plane. I suppose I lean toward more of a belief in reincarnation for the sake of learning life's lessons and righting wrongs.

Or... we could just be here to be here. Like furniture.


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FelixFelix
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00:48:28 Aug 24 2008
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Nightgame

Freedom of choice for all intents...is an illusion. The reason you make your choices and the choices themselves are learned responses. Just as Pavlov's dogs salivate when the bell rings, you will choose yes or no, right or left, this job or that job, this friend or that one, based on your life's experiences and genetic patterns in taste. Even when we think we are throwing a wrench into the works by choosing something 'unlike our normal choices' it is a reaction that was set in motion by either boredom with our previous or by someone goading us into doing so. In this way, even our most 'unnatural' choices were bound to be made with the current influence of our surroundings and therefore, not complete free will. Of course the idea of true free will would also imply that we would be free all the time to make totally irrational, suicidal, or homicidal decisions based on nothing more than whim. This is not the case as most abherrant behavior is also either genetic or learned and therefore not really a choice either...just playing out the cards we are all dealt.



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Nightgame
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Felix I cannot argue since I agree that we actually have very little free will.

I think most of us develop patterns that we settle on from our environment and upbringing and it’s only when we consciously step away from our pattern that we are exercising free will. I think this usually happens when we follow our instincts instead of our intellect.



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Angelus
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02:08:21 Aug 24 2008
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..the author of this thread came up with some pretty good answers, for themself.
..some of which I'd agree with.
..my addition would be, to exist (and learn)
and... create, not destroy.



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Diosa
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02:33:28 Aug 24 2008
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My purpose in life was revealed to me not too long ago....to help others in time of need. To inspire! To spread joy when it's spilling out of me in droves!



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UpirLikhyj
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03:16:14 Aug 24 2008
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STABB666,

As minor children, obviously none of us had much free will, period. Thus whether in grade school or in life itself, this childhood condition of limited choice is universal. Thus as this fact permeates both the "life" and the metaphoric "school" scenarios of this discussion and applies equally to both, we can cancel both out of this equation as moot. Let's speak instead of ourselves as adults for whom free agency is fully in play in all that we do.

As adults, we make the choices for our own life... including whether we wish to remain in school or drop out, whether we feel education is worthwhile or not. Yet whether we continue our education or not is still ... our choice. Likewise, whether we determine that life does have purpose or not and choose to live accordingly is still entirely... our choice.

Thus, to hold the view that life has purpose no more limits our free agency than it would to view education as having purpose and acting accordingly. In either case, we are still just as free to make choices in our lives regardless our views. And, in fact, the argument could be quite easily made that by viewing education (and life) as having purpose and then taking advantage of same through our actions, we in fact open up for ourselves far more choices later on in life than were we to consider either... or both... as having no purpose at all. After all, an adult with a college education is understandably far better equipped and more likely to have a lot more choices in life both professionally as well as economically than would a high school dropout, all things being equal. Thus, viewing life as having purpose would logically be expected to also help one achieve far more in life than would the view of life as pointless and, thus, of no importance no matter how lived... or not.


Now... moving on... you are correct indeed that it is Life itself that is teaches us through its myriad, often-seemingly random pathways. This is, in fact, one of if not the key purpose of Life, itself; it is indeed the ultimate "school." And as a school, it has a purpose: to educate and prepare us for that which is to come... hereafter.

Hmmm... I said hereafter? Surely that will have you balk at such a seeming leap in logic. However, let's examine just a bit further to see why this is not so much a leap as an inductive logical step, instead.

In the animal kingdom, we observe an almost universal "Law of the Jungle" in effect that dictates that animals operate solely on what is best described as extreme self interest. If an animal is hungry, it kills to eat... without remorse or regret. If it wants something and can get away with taking it ... it feels no compunction not to take it, no matter the harm it might do to others in so doing. Animals have little if any emotion that is not inherently self-serving and entirely devoid of compassion for others around it, save for its offspring or known benefactors. This Darwinian "Law of the Jungle" is simple, unvarnished selfishness and is universally and instinctually followed by all species ...

... save for one.


We are the sole and, thus, the amazingly unique exception to this one solitary foundational rule of Evolution. For whenever in history a person or a society has attempted to engender such a law as its own and then exercises such to dominate, subjugate, and rule with an iron fist all those weaker than itself, it leads to the inevitable misery of all and the ultimate destruction of that person or that society (e.g., Nazi Germany, Japanese Empire, Soviet Union... and those only in the past 100 years). Totalitarian governments or societies that prey upon the weak, whether that weakness be militaristic, economic, racial, sexual, religious, etc., are antithetical to free agency and to harmonious Human society. This is in direct contradiction to the evolutionary view of Life as arbitrary, accidental, and thus inherently devoid of purpose or reason. And yet... we remain as the ultimate glaring contradiction to such a foundational Evolutionary law. Why?!

While in all other species such basic predatory attitudes and behaviors are considered as demonstrably healthy and, in fact, necessary. Yet strangely... and contrary to Evolutionary principles... only in Human society is such rightly judged extremely unhealthy, decidedly destructive, and in fact, sociopathic and criminal... and rightly so!

Assuming you have followed my argument thus far, allow me then to pose the obvious question: if Life for us is without purpose and merely a fluke by-product of Evolution... then why is this foundational Law of Evolution, the law of "Natural Selection," of "Survival of the Fittest," not only completely inoperable where Human societies are concerned, but in fact inherently contrary to our most foundational natures and, in fact, inexorably self destructive? Why are we required to learn and operate by HIGHER laws of societal behavior to survive, laws that teach compassion, unselfishness... even at the risk of our lives (which REALLY flies in the face of Evolutionary principles)? Why is it that for us as Human Beings, the "natural" law of "Might Makes Right" ("Survival of the Fittest"), which plainly operates wonderfullly throughout the animal kingdom and has for untold millenia, would result in the destruction of our entire species were such behavior made legal and put into actual practice worldwide?

There is only one LOGICAL answer to that singularly important question: WE are not the product of that Evolutionary paradigm, thus the foundational principle of same... does not work for us.


Were this conclusion in error, then the foundational principle upon which it is based would indeed operate as fluidly and harmoniously in our Human societies as it has always done in animal societies.

Thus... Life does have a purpose that transcends this mortal plane, or else we would not be required by life to inherently learn principles diametrically opposed to those dictated by evolutionary "science" (e.g., charity, compassion, self-sacrifice, atruism), principles that potentially could actually limit our lives here or lessen the quality of same for us and/or our children. And yet, when we help another, when we sacrifice ourselves or our resources to help others in need, we FEEL wonderfully... inside... emotionally and (dare I say it?) spiritually. These FEED our sense of self-worth and self-esteem in ways not possible via money or even power, both of which... as the old adage correctly states... inevitably corrupts and, thus, self destructs the individual.

And these key lessons that life teaches our species alone succeed not in developing our bodies... but instead something within us that must be much deeper... much longer lasting that has a purpose far surpassing the brief period of mortality in which we presently find ourselves.

Were this not so, we would be naturally happy and fulfilled living the same Law of the Jungle as works so well in all the animal kingdoms. And instead of locking up the psychopaths amongst us for simply learning such natural "Survival of the Fittest" (i.e., "Might Makes Right") evolutionary lessons as are taught by Nature to all species... we ought to free them all.

And, by extrapolation, let's instead lock up all the true heroes in society who have freely chosen to view Life as having purpose! You know, those "idiots" who have dared to choose living by the many altruistic principles of unselfishness, self sacrifice, and even heroic altruism, all of which are in diametric VIOLATION of the aforenamed evolutionary principles. And while we're at it, if indeed "Survival of the Fittest" is the Darwinian ideal, and if therefore life is indeed without purpose anyway... ought we then not to abide by such "high" Evolutionary Laws and act as did Hitler in exterminating all those scientifically judged to be genetically inferior, too?

Quite the Slippery Slope, huh?! And yet, this is entirely reasonable and, perhaps, inevitable when Darwinian principles are considered valid and actually applied!


Thus... either Life is the accidental product of Evolution, without purpose and without point at all except to live, propagate, and die as selfishly and as predatorily as possible to ensure the evolutionary "survival of the fittest," or else we are here for far more than that... thus explaining why we as Humans are far more fulfilled when we exhibit characteristics and behaviors in direct violation of such evolutionary laws and, thus, such a limited view of Life and its purposes.

There can be only one answer: The choice... as always... is ours.



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FelixFelix
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03:39:24 Aug 24 2008
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our evolutionary ancestors developed vision that was good for using tools and good for things like grabbing and those traits came part and parcel with evolutionary development of an opposable thumb. I can't say that binocular vision came before the use of our hands or the other way around but the end result is we lost the ability to keep a more wide degree of vision to look for predators. How did evolution then keep us alive. We had the narrow vision of predators but were still very much prey. The only way we were able to survive was by evolving societal defense...just like our chimp other simian ancestors.

With societal defense, we didn't need wide vision because we had more than one set of eyes watching out for each other. However, in order for societal defense to work, our brains grew to handle the necessary recognition and cooperation that goes with society. This developed further and further and gave way to choices that were not just a means of survival but for other benefits. It has been learned through study that man is not the only creature on this planet that goes to 'war' for reasons beyond survival. War, murder, sex for pleasure, and even a society judging a wrong doer have all been shown to exist in simian culture in the wild. This shows that we are not as unique as we thought only more developed in our societal structure owing to our more developed brains.

We are a very advanced species but we are not a complete break from the mold. We are not so unique as to warrant that life suddenly has more purpose beyond survival. Quite simply, our developed minds have simply taken a broader view of what survival (read success) is. We are still very much animals like the rest of the world. Very self aware true but animals none the less. Take away a human's contact with societal structure (an integral part of our self awareness) and watch how quickly we revert to animal instinct and behavior. One need look no further than experiments and recent usage of extreme solitary confinement as a means to reduce humans to dogs who lose sense of self and purpose and meaning...even the ability to communicate or acknowledge our 'higher values'. We become the very animals we work so hard to separate ourselves from.




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fallenangelV
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03:42:00 Aug 24 2008
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I think the meaning of life is to live yours and expierence new thing discover new things make your own choices! I think that it is your decision to figure out what your purpose in life is some people might not have a purpose I think it all depends on the choice you make as a human being!



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03:42:19 Aug 24 2008
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to live life means you take the good with the bad



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TheFireWithin
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04:32:47 Aug 24 2008
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We're here to live.. Isn't that enough. Does everyone always have to question everything? Why can't anyone ever be happy with just being here and with what they have already... You people think too much. lol



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FelixFelix
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04:37:19 Aug 24 2008
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I think happiness is key to the belief or at least the lack of happiness is key to the belief. People that are unhappy or unfulfilled look to purpose as a way of giving meaning to their suffering. Other people don't know what direction they want in life and try to find higher meaning as guidance. Those who are truly happy and fulfilled might not focus so much on the purpose of life or else they may have already allowed that purpose to become their source of happiness.



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Bloodmother
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18:05:49 Aug 24 2008
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We've touched on pain and suffering, purpose, procreation, and evolution searching for an answer to the meaning of life. We've pounded the hell out of free will, and finally landed on happiness. I think we need some tsurris.

"Tsurris" first appears in the book of Job (1:5; 7:13; 12:9), where it is usually translated as "how did you get into this mess?"



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deathnitegrl
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18:08:23 Aug 24 2008
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The meaning of life, is life itself, to live and produce another life, procreation, then what's the meaning of existance? I still have to find it, if someone has an objective answer for this, please tell me, in the meantime I'll build up my own opinion.



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CrimsonScarab
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18:16:14 Aug 24 2008
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I really have not given it much thought.I think we make it what we will of it.And when we are ready to pass on we look back and say,Did I make my self worth remembering?



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Indulgence
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19:17:41 Aug 24 2008
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My opinion.



I don't believe we have a purpose here during our existance. If we do, it's simply to live. However, we're not required to live, therefore getting rid of any need for a purpose.


We're here to live. To die. And to enjoy the memories, people, friends, places ... everything we see.



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Missmissy
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19:23:25 Aug 24 2008
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to me there is no answer to that question if everyone were to find their purpose in life it would make us like machines to do our task and die. i love the fact that i dont know wat im so suppose to be here for and where in going to end we are here for is to follow makes up hapy and through trials and experiences



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NartinaLeMaliki
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21:42:30 Aug 24 2008
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This is a very difficult topic, trying to figure out our purpose for being here on this planet. And to be honest, I believe that we all have a different purpose. It's too hard to make a consecutive decision on what we all are here for. Too hard to come up with one answer, even from similarities in other people's answers because we are not all here for the same thing. Some of us are here for the sole purpose of causing trouble for others, or so we believe, while others are here to save others.

I don't necessarily know what I am here for. I believe that the truth of my own purpose will be revealed sometime before I pass into the next dimension. However if I were to come up with a consecutive answer for the general public of the world, than I would have to say that, maybe we are here to save an already dying planet. Maybe, we are here to destroy something.

Now...I've read the responses, and some people have said that we are here to basically break this planet, and destroy it, but that causes me to think on some things. Don't you think that if we were truly here to destroy something, that the planet would have retaliated and killed us off? Therefore, I don't think that we were here to destroy the planet, even though we are doing so.

Basically what I am trying to say is that I don't know our purpose for being here. Perhaps, it is to control the population of certain animals and cause others who are causing problems for the planet to go extinct. It's only a matter of time before we go extinct too. It may take thousands of years, but all things must come to an end, and whatever I've been reincarneted into by then will rejoice.

Who knows? Throughout history and legends, humans have managed to save animals from extinction. Like Noah and the Ark, and in more modern times, the veterinarians and animal cops. So....maybe that is why we are here. But who knows.

As I said before, it is too hard to come up with a consecutive decision as to why we are here. There are many different takes on our purpose, but I can't say for sure as to whether or not they are correct. I don't know our purpose, and I'm sure we won't truly know our purpose until we are near extinction ourselves.



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markus666
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21:43:43 Aug 24 2008
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The only reason, my opinion, that we are here, is because we are not there. There are only two plane to reside, there or here. There is no learning or exploring the so called soul, everything is invented by the humans to control others humans...Like organized religion.



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shadowofmystry
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21:45:08 Aug 24 2008
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Im not sure but we maybe here to learn a lesson of some kind.To learn the lesson we have to go through ups and downs that test us as a person.We have to dream and expirence.Then before we did we begin to understand why we were here.


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RavenEyes
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23:27:13 Aug 24 2008
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I'm not sure if there's even a specific purpose for us to exist. Why not the answer to Why Are We Here be "we just are"? There could be no purpose at all.



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aloneibleed2126
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00:35:53 Aug 25 2008
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I think you are here to learn i think you are set in a path and you have to affect the people that you effect in your life..every person that is brought into your life is there for a reason and eventually it will all come clear.



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SatanKimi17
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00:49:21 Aug 25 2008
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i belive we are here as an expirement, its just god seeing if we can make it.



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mtsoul77
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01:32:49 Aug 25 2008
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I don't think that we're here for a purpose. Not everything has to have a reason. Some things just are. That's how I feel about life. We exsist just because we were born. Not to serve a purpose.



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Indulgence
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02:08:36 Aug 25 2008
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And what type of experiment would that be, MrsW?



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STABB666
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15:57:26 Aug 25 2008
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UpirLikhyj,

I firstly must disagree that the same principle restrictions upon us during childhood do not apply throughought our entire lives. As we become adults and begin to know the world out there, we still have to conform to specific laws, to work in order to earn for our very survival- for clothes, food and shelter. We are still subject to codes of morality through religion and societal pressures.

The process is the same, even if the applied pressures take a different guise. That we are more able to realise the import and impact of our actions upon the world around us, does afford us the greater 'choice' of how to live our lives, but by the same token, it is no more free than if we were still children.

The setting of purpose, of an end 'goal' inevitably must also set our actions, our choices, upon a path which will aim towards acheivement of said purpose, thus reducing the available options for action if one's goal is to be acheived. One can say that 'I will do this', and then take actions which contradict that stated aim, but this would become hypocritical procrastination at best, and a greivous deception at worst.

That we might experience a better quality of life if we work hard and act 'appropriately', is determined by the nature of the society in which we exist. It cannot be equated across differing forms of culture, such as working hard in a sweatshop to feed a family on a meagre wage, or toiling on a farm just to grow enough food to live, cannot be reconciled with a daily shift in a retail store, or as a doctor saving lives.

And while a different level of acheivement in education may bring about our living in each of those scenarios, outside factors will ultimately determine our potential for success. A doctor may become a political refugee and be forced to work a farm, or subsist on aid handouts, to lose their dignity. A farmer may have to learn to offer medical assistance during a war and come to know death and suffering, A store worker may rise to challenge the state system, driven by a perception of inequality and become a pariah because of that.

Whatever we 'choose' to do in life, can and often will be undone by the seemingly unjust and indiscriminate forces of human nature. And that is the real law of the jungle. That we are still just animals trying to survive in a strange and dangerous world. Taken outside of our comfort zone, to the basest levels of need, we descend to the same principles of instinct as any other beast.

What does it take to survive? Would you steal? Lie? Kill? Or simply lay down and die?

Rhetorically asked, but at the same time, they are important questions in regard to self-preservation and the 'survival of the fittest'. Can human will, the character of our morals, prevent us from doing whatever is necessary to keep going, to live even if it means the death of another?

Are we truly able to rise above and engage reason when the world around us is hostile and unreasonable?

I also do not see that we are the sole beings who could discard selfish motivations in favour of this generous altruism. Some animals have shown a particular penchant for disregarding their own safety, and even given their lives to save that of a human being. Easy examples are dogs and dolphins, so I feel it is an unfairness to those other animals to say that they are bound entirely by their standard mode of behaviour.

Without reaching too far into the realms of political discussion, it does seem that there is a great deal of moral relativism in regards to what is unhealthy, destructive and criminal to any particular society. Propogation of war on the basis that it will prevent further war is just one example of this strange paradoxical 'reasoning'.

There are subtle ways in which the 'natural selection' of evolution can be applied in a human societal context. After all, is not the goal of any society to make life better for its own? We as a social species like to have the company of those we feel a kinship with. We bond with those who feel life as we do, against those who see it differently. We then apply our political motivations to our own form of society, because we find it is 'the best' form, because it is what works for our selves.

To then reach out and attempt to change other societies to match our own, is a prime example of 'might is right', because it is our might and we are 'right'. This behaviour is legal and is prosecuted with as much vigour today, as it was five thousand years ago. We are no different than other animals. We just have greater numbers and more imagination as to how to acheive that goal of domination, and subsequent survival. The group mindset takes on a life of it's own, it drives public opinion to force our 'leaders' into choices that promote our best chances for success, again alleviating us of our free will.

Within any society, there is a revolutionary, a train of thought against the norm. It is almost a natural phenomena and evolution itself against that which is the prevailing consensus. Perhaps it is natural balance, or it could just be insurgency of foreign opinion, but always, there is never a total and complete agreement with the actions of the majority. And supposedly in a democracy, this voice is to be heard and it's points debated, even if at the end, it is discarded in favour of whatever the 'national interest' may be determined as.

At the last, I do agree that there is a purpose beyond this simple life we lead, but not quite for the reasons which you come to the same conclusion with. For me, there is no contradiction to evolution and so I am not required to learn those principles which you say are opposed to nature, through a rejection of those which are inherent, but instead, as I experience the effects emotionally of those base instincts, in witnessing death and suffering, in being left without by anothers' selfishness, but also in receiving that charity, in knowing the joy of bringing new life to the world, I am given the opportunity to have the whole shape me and guide me.

Perhaps in this, we are able to exercise our free will to chose whether we will become as those who treated us badly, and begin to inflict that same upon the world, or to grow into one of those who set the example of compassion.



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gealachlass
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16:57:20 Aug 25 2008
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Free will is not so free. For every action is a reaction (which we may not like). But here to learn the one or two lessons we wished to learn b/4 we came down here. The real meaning is learn not to kill each other, to play nice and take a nap when cranky . Live by that we will all be better off. : )



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Rastaferal
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17:18:01 Aug 25 2008
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You presume that we are here for a purpose...why?
Cant we simply be here without purpose? Cant life have no meaning?



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Cheetahcry
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18:20:36 Aug 25 2008
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I personally feel that we are here to learn, live, and die. Happiness is in the middle of eveything in this. I don't feel that we are here for a specific reason. Life it self is what we want, our goals, our passions and so forth.



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trepidation
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18:58:32 Aug 25 2008
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Everything has a purpose, or it would not exsist! take a chair, although not living, it has its purpose for us to sit on, if it didnt it wouldnt be here!

so we must have a purpose, as we wouldnt be here, that purpose as im yet to find a reasonable explanation. but for now i will stick with what most of you have said, we are here to learn.



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Cheetahcry
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19:05:14 Aug 25 2008
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didn't say that we didn't have a purpose just that there was no specific reason for what we are here for. Whether its learning or whether its to help someone else. I guess that I didn't make that clear. There is a purpose for everything its just that we have no real clue as to what that purpose is. That is the beauty of the search.



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trepidation
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19:07:13 Aug 25 2008
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Aye i know you didnt it was aimed to 'Rastaferal'.



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LovelyXDEATH35
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19:27:57 Aug 25 2008
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i dont really think there is a meaning to human life i see no real reason we dont have to save anything nothing to discover that i believe that is in our reach just we came to live on this planet forced to live a life here and work the whole life



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UpirLikhyj
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21:12:22 Aug 25 2008
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STABB666

It would seem you do not understand the foundational reciprocity inherent to exactly what constitutes full adult exercise of Free Agency:

When you choose between any set of options, you also choose to reject those not chosen. Once money, time, desires, goals, etc., are invested in and/or committed to, you no longer can commit such resources to the options deliberately and freely NOT chosen. You cannot choose to take one path... while also choosing another. You cannot commit to one purpose, while remaining free to commit to another.

We all possess (within a free society... and as adults) the inalienable right to freely choose our course in life. However, with that right and that privilege comes with it the corresponding responsibility for that choice... and every choice that follows thereafter. And should we, whether individually or as a collective society, no longer wish to shoulder that responsibility and freely choose to no longer exercise our free agency responsiblly, we will find our Free Agency, our Freedom, forcibly removed from us... whether this be as a just jail sentence or, worse still, the perhaps equally-as-just destruction of our free society by those who would rule over us.

Free Agency has as its one inviolable law the fact that whether individually or as a society, SELF RULE CANNOT EXIST WITHOUT SELF DISCIPLINE.

This is both exemplifies the transcendent beauty as well as the harsh reality that governs the eternal principle of Free Agency. Understanding and responsibly learning to exercise this most powerful of all principles is our singularly most important purpose of this mortal existence and... indeed... is what best prepares us for achieving the far-greater potentials of the next.

If only we will first learn to "choose wisely" (apologies to "Indiana Jones") in this life. ;)



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xONYXCRUISERx
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21:28:28 Aug 25 2008
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Pehaps in another sense, the 'meaning of Life' could be that time when we 'find ourselves', after certain experiences and developments, and we can, for good or ill, accept and 'rest easy'.

Ade


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UpirLikhyj
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21:30:15 Aug 25 2008
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An Addendum to my previous post:


The very fact that, having made a choice, we are thereafter unable to still be free to choose amongst those same options (to "have our cake and eat it too") is not evidence of not having Free Agency, but instead is what certifies that we DO have Free Agency.

If I freely choose to spend... say... $10 on a DVD, the fact that thereafter I no longer have that same $10 to spend on something else is not evidence that I don't have Free Agency; it certifies that I do... and that I used that free agency to make a choice for which, thereafter, I must now live with the consequences (I no longer have the $10; instead, I have the DVD I freely chose to purchase with it).

And that... was MY choice and mine alone to make, as also are the consequences thereof. Thus, Free Agency does exist and exercising same to choose a course in life to follow, a purpose in life to pursue, is not at all contradictory to Free Agency; it certfies its proper use!



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trepidation
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21:38:16 Aug 25 2008
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Ade that is a good point which i have never thought of, when we do find ourselves the meaning of life could come clear. when we have done something that is so righteous or when we find something that we are connected to that the meaning of life will come clear.



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xONYXCRUISERx
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21:41:22 Aug 25 2008
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T? It is at that point when we have had a few 'corners knocked off', do not feel quite so riddled with self doubt or even the need to feel guilty over certain things, that we eventually come to a comfortable 'arriving point' within ourselves where we can exhale, knowing that the 'meaning of Life' is simply to be, as this is how we wee intended to be, for better or worse, so perhaps this could be a 'meaning of Life' of sorts?

Ade


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NartinaLeMaliki
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21:43:40 Aug 25 2008
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UpirLikhyj: You bring a very stunning and well written definition of what Free will is. Basically what you say is true. In histories past, it has been proven that those who chose to give up their ability to make a decision find themselves in situations that are quite the opposite of what they intended. We humans are a prime example of history repeating itself. Especially since we tend to make the same mistakes over and over again.

Your last statement had me thinking. What if we could learn to chose wisely? What would happen then? Would the world be in the same place if we'd learned that sooner? Have you-a question directed at everyone-ever been given a choice between two things of opposite importance, and been told to chose wisely? I have...and believe me, it's one of the worst statements that someone can tell me. I know this is a little off topic, or maybe it isn't, but yeah. What goes through my mind when someone tells me such, is basically a series of thoughts, the most pertinent one being, "When I chose, will it be wise for me, or wise for them? What is their take on wisdom? How do I know which is the right choice?" Making a wise choice is different for everyone, because, while we all have a thought of what we think wisdom is, while we all have it ingrained in our minds what we think wisdom is, it's all a different spectrum. What may be wise for one person is not wise for another, thus bringing out the cliche, "One person's trash is another person's treasure."

Maybe our purpose in this life is to find true wisdom. Maybe the gods wanted us to figure something out. Maybe-and this is all speculation of course-we aren't solely from here, but from a different dimension, and we were "unwise" and foolish in that other dimension, and so the gods wanted us to find that true wisdom here. What if, we were supposed to stay here until we found it, and that true wisdom, and lack of folly was our ticket to where we are truly supposed to be.


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trepidation
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21:45:14 Aug 25 2008
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Yes Ade i think in a way you have cracked it, as we go through worse things in life there is always better and when we have finshed going thought the bad and it the end of them things, like you said we feel comftable with what we have been though and not feel guilty then that is the meaning of life.



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xONYXCRUISERx
xONYXCRUISERx

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21:48:05 Aug 25 2008
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Without wishing to sound 'pseudo' if possible, T, if we can find that 'meaning of Life' as applied to ourselves and our own situations, then perhaps we be better equipped and sufficient;y 'reconciled and at peace' with ourselves, that we can begin to see possibilities as to the general 'meaning of Life', also?

Ade


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trepidation
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22:20:26 Aug 25 2008
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Thats right, the key word there 'begin' to understand the meaning of life within the world, and i think to understand that the world needs to be at peace and every single being, if possible. So we can open to the soul of the world.



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xONYXCRUISERx
xONYXCRUISERx

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22:54:00 Aug 25 2008
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Perhaps understanding ourselves can be the key to understanding on a wider aspect, of Life itself, the more 'settled' we become, so as to see 'without' that much more clearly?

Ade


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trepidation
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23:03:19 Aug 25 2008
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YEah true, because most of us spend time worrying about tomorrow, we negelet to see what today is about and in the long run dont see what we miss, when we can see these things, can look upon the horizon, to understand what the world is about, we can get a deeper insight to what we are about.



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xONYXCRUISERx
xONYXCRUISERx

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23:16:59 Aug 25 2008
Read 848 times

Exactly, T, as when we are overly consumed with ourselves or confused with ourselves, it obscres our sight in a wider, more worldly contect, and therefoe any investigations into the possible 'meaning of Life' therefore escapes us, eh?

Ade


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trepidation
trepidation
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23:22:05 Aug 25 2008
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exactly, its a waste of time if we are not at peace with ourselves.

you know what Ade i think we may have cracked it here, when we find ourselves we find and understand life.



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xONYXCRUISERx
xONYXCRUISERx

No Longer Registered
23:29:04 Aug 25 2008
Read 842 times

Many are the contexts of our differing views, here, from our own perspectives and zones of Experience, so perhaps our interpretations as to the 'meaning of Life' ought to be different, as our standpoints are disparate, are they not? T? We have attempted to 'delve' and haven't done too badly. Some excellent viewpoints here, to be sure!


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UpirLikhyj
UpirLikhyj

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23:38:46 Aug 25 2008
Read 838 times

Nartina:

Lovely points all.

As regards your latter speculations, I don't personally believe we are here as any sort of punishment for wisdom not-yet-learned. Instead, to me it makes more logical sense that this mortal existence is simply the next step in our eternal progression. Kinda like moving from grade school into high school; it's simply the next developmental step.

As I can find little logic in the idea of reincarnation (basically the idea that we must repeat over and over the same phase of existence, kinda like being forced to continually repeat, say, the Third Grade, yet without being given the necessary benefit of our memory of those earlier lives so as to learn therefrom and be able to then move on!), I find it far more reasonable that we have progressed prior to mortality from a purely spiritual existence to one here in which our "spirits" (for lack of a better word) have been joined with a mortal body that comes with all its uniquely mortal and extremely strong desires, needs, and drives that we must learn in this life to control, focus, and direct for good... through the wise and responsible application of Free Agency. In other words, we have had added to us in THIS life the monumental task of learning to control and direct for good a physical body that, prior to our few years here on Earth, we did not possess.

If we succeed in doing so, then when we pass on to the NEXT phase of existence hereafter, we shall have even greater freedoms, privileges, and -- undeniably -- greater corresponding responsibilities, as well. Indeed, I feel it quite safe to say that while in some similitude to life here, yet the next life hereafter will truly be comprised of understandings and vistas that surely "eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, nor entered into the heart of man..."

No... I'm not trying to get religoius here; far from it. I'm simply arriving at a quite logical conclusion.

Lest we forget, we are currently locked within bodies of only five very limited physical senses and inside a physical universe of which we can perceive only three dimensions (four, if your count Time as such) when Quantum Physics has already concluded that there must be at least 13 distinct dimensions. Thus, we do indeed have an almost inconceivably limited capacity for understanding even our own existence, much less the Universe as a whole! Thus for anyone to say that there is nothing beyond this life, especially given the evidences to the contrary (which discussion is too far afield of this topic), is to me as shortsighted and as intellectually irresponsible as for someone to observe through a telescope the limits of our visible universe therein and proclaim that there must be nothing beyond that. In both cases, such a conclusion is patently absurd and more indicative of ignorance than understanding.

Thus, yes "Virginia," there is purpose to Life, there is Meaning to Life... and no, a determination of such does not at all contradict Free Agency, it instead justifies it, validates it, and gives Free Agency the true purpose for which such was and is intended.

Of course, whether you freely choose (there's that word again) to consider and act on such is entirely, again, your choice to make and... your eternal responsibilty, either way.





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VR System
VR System

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23:38:46 Aug 25 2008
Read 838 times

This thread has been automatically closed for length.



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STABB666
STABB666
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23:57:45 Aug 25 2008
Read 833 times

UpirLikhyj,

I do feel I have shown a fair understanding of the nature of free will, where I will hope that you will see beyond the single train of 'Western' logic which you seem so fond of employing here.

The last example you used, about the $10 and a DVD, is really an incompatible deterministic choice, not an exercise in free will as you claim.

That you would choose to purchase a DVD and not have the money afterwards, thus leaving you without further choice, must have purpose behind it. What was the motivation for that choice?

You purchased the DVD because you wanted it, subjected to determined future action based on your choice at a specific time.

Once that action occured, you were left with no further choices. And that choice you made, was based on your needs as determined by your personae and situation. It may be your preferred method of entertainment because you grew up loving a certain type of movie, a need for information because you have a task set for study, or a gift for someone whom you know loves DVD's, and so on back through a myriad chain of linked precursor events which lead up to your making that choice.

Any of these paths to decision are predetermined reasons for you to make that choice of purchase, leaving you devoid of free will, but with the illusion of actual choice. Sure, you could choose which DVD to buy. You could even choose not to buy the DVD, but as we both pointed out, we are subject to commitments made within our moralistic boundries.

We could open up dependent origination from this position and explore how our action is determined by the action we have not taken, and linked to all other actions which preceeded and continue to involve us.

But since you have rejected determinism as a factor of free will, I'm curious as to how your sticking to the rather rigid 'Westernised' idea of metaphysical libertarianism leads you to believe that free will exists;

Just by being aware of one's capability to make choices, we are still making a determined action, otherwise it is a random occurrence and it is not logically possible to make a willed choice under those circumstances.

As for 'moral responsibility', which you appear to want to provide some import to by using all caps, I would have to state that for deterministic choices to be made, requires a remodelling of crime and punishment, so that freedom and morality have no input to the process.

And if we are deterministic beings, subsequent punishment cannot be retribution, but must be rational in order to bring about the modification of behavioural patterns, requiring a rejection of judgement by moral standards in favour of calculated adjustment.

Does this absolve the individual of accountability?

Hardly, it infers that due to the actions of the person, the consequences must be applied, but in a non-morally judgmental manner.

Unforced choice of action which breaks the rules of a society, does not devalue the causal effect of determinism and therefore, absolution of responsibility for such action.

One's predilection to certain actions can be said to be outside of our free will, but it will not allow us to escape recriminations for those actions which we call crimes, since we as a society will impart punishment regardless of whether a person is responsible or not, but because one action prompts another.

I really must read up on Hobbes and Locke and revisit this, but since it's late, I'll leave it here and hope we might continue this another time.



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• • • • THIS THREAD IS CLOSED • • • •
•  Closed by STABB666 on Aug 25 2008  •

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