Ok I have read a lot of posts and several different web sites about this.
According to some beliefs everything is alive and a spirit. For example the trees have a spirit and can feel pain. Animals have a spirit that feels different things as well. I was wondering what everyone here felt about this.
do you feel that everything is alive and does have a spirit? Please explain your thoughts as to why or why not?
I think it's clear that not everything is alive. We have to remember that words such as "alive" are human inventions with specific meanings. Something can properly be said to be alive when it demonstrates; homeostasis, structural organization, metabolism, growth, adaptation, response to stimuli and reproduction. Any other application of the word is an attempt to re-define "life".
Anything which does not exhibit all of the above abilities simply isn't alive. Examples of things which are alive include; plants, animals, protists, bacteria, fungi, archaea and protists. Anything which does not fit into one of these classifications isn't alive. Rocks aren't alive, nor are lumps of metal, mineral deposits, oil deposits, water, gases, etc.
Trees are most certainly alive but demonstrate no ability to feel pain. (Of course many have seen demonstrations where a plant leaf appears to move itself away from an open flame. So does plastic wrap). Trees do not display any kind of known nervous system. If one does exist, it seems to be masquerading as some other structure and doing so well enough to fool even expert biologists working a number of experiments to uncover the functions of these mechanisms.
Certain things are alive and the rest are not. None (either alive or not), show any evidence of having a spirit.
I'm tempted to think what is being suggested by those who wish to redefine life is something akin to Pantheism.
Myth Busters just did a test on this, a test based on the "studies" of Baxter something or other, I will look up his name and look for a link to the eposiod.
Thanks for your post Beastt.
I can understand what you aare saying here and you reminded me I forgot to put the things like rocks and such into the equation as well. Simply put most do feel that rocks or anything that is made of the earth does have a spirit and are alive. Even though there is no way of showing that they actually are.
For others who post do you feel that an inaminent (sp) does have a spirit and are alive? Like the rocks or something else along those lines.
Here is a link you may find interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism
Very interesting link Dabbler. I had no idea about the section that is mentioned with Sigmund Freud. There are other ideas in which the text suggests that this is part of all religions and to some is the foundation of the religion. Which to me is very interesting.
" Sigmund Freud thought that "primitive men" came up with the animistic system by observing the phenomena of sleep (including dreams) and of death which so much resembles it, and by attempting to explain those states. Freud regarded it as perfectly natural for man to react to the phenomena which aroused his speculations by forming the idea of the soul and then extending it to objects in the external world"
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism
Metaphorically it is much stronger. We have symbols for objects, symbols that are universal.
An example of the extent of the Metaphoric nature of such things.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personification
Then looking at the metaphoric part of this would you think that a soul or spirit could be considered a symbol of lets say the person or of another object?
Even Ghost is a metaphor to identity. We objectify through such things, "She needs to make it to the garage" said about a car, in ill repair. In metaphor thoughts are things, and relative to the assignment.
The way people are attracted to objects, and what they invest in objects is rivaled only by people. look at fetishes (the carvings). We have stones that are aligned with our birth. Flowers that are assigned to occasions.
I believe in "animism" which is a part of some Native American religious beliefs. All natural things, earth, trees, animals, plants have a spirit. Even rocks and stones have a form of magick which emanates from them. Therefore I believe a human cannot own land, the land owns you; you cannot own animals but you can care for them and feed them, same for plants and trees.
Most people do not understand this belief, but indigenous people all over the world have similar beliefs. Most likely they feel these beliefs are due to ignorance and superstition. Modern humans in industrial society have always felt superior to cultures that practice these beliefs, which have led in the past and even today to destruction many of them.
i somewhat agree. yes everything like nature, and animals and humans are living, that is obvious. yes all these things have feelings too. if you harm a plant it feels pain and it shows it in the way it grows. however i do not agree with the statement, "everything is alive" bowls, spoons and forks are not living and do not feel.
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IveXtastedxthexrainbow Premiere Sire (122) Posts: 2,056 Honor: 0 [ Give / Take ] |
i believe in the scientific view that organic t hings are alive as in a biology kind of view but a tree does not have feelings or thoughts or impacts on emotional life.
Nope.
Rocks ... dirt ... metals ... virus ... water ... None of them are alive. None of them breathe. None of them think or speak or have blood. Nor hearts or brains -- therefore not alive.
if so then the floor we stepp on everyday is in pain and desks we bang on feel pain the pillows we sleep on i could go on and on so no i do not believe that everything has a soul now unless you mean every living thing then i would have to concider that more deeply there could be a possiblity
I believe that it is possible for plantlife to feel pain. Animals obviously can endure pain. But as for rocks and other forms of earthly creations? I don't think so. A rock is a rock nothing more nothing else there. At least that is my perspective.
not everything is alive. for example when a topic is closed on vampire rave's forums it is said to be dead and dubbed "RIP"
This is my opinion as I have formed by what I've seen and my heritage. Everything is not necessarily alive but everthing has a spirit!
Is there a difference? Yes! To be alive is to think to talk to breath, but to be a spirit you don't have to be either.
I truly believe that everything has a spirit and yes, I'm the big weirdo talking to the inanimate objects!
Actually I do that too. it's odd because sometimes when i talk to my plants i swear they move around and are trying to talk back. I dunno. Maybe they do have spirits. So I guess i am a weirdo too! lol
Omg! I'm so glad to be here on the rave and find someone just like me! :)
The plants do listen. The ones I don't talk to die quicker!
I have an aloe vera plant that almost died. I starting conversing with it and it started to turn green again. It was completely orange. Now it's completely green and has sprouted 3 new leaves in a month! lol. So who knows, plants are indeed living things. No arguing there. So if an animal can have a spirit then i think that plants can possibly as well.
I don't believe rocks are alive, nor dirt. But just about all non man made objects are pretty much alive. I always wondered if grass felt/hurt when you mow it, or if trees where in pain, when you trimmed them, or cut them down.
But does a spirit feel? I don't think it does. Grass was meant for our bare feet to walk upon and be felt by our toes......:)
Buddhist also agree with this principle that everything is alive and has a spirit. I am unclear on how they feel about dirt.
My opinion is that the planet is alive and everything on it. Going back to Jung everything is connected.
Spirit or soul I don't know but a tree does feel pain and rocks for example crystals have energy, I call that life.
I think its pretty obvious that anything "man-made" is not alive and therefore has no spirit.
i agree that man made things would hold no spirit. i believe not everything is alive. a brick or concrete would not have a spirit, where as a leaf and a rock would. that mother nature has given us lives with us, that whick we have made does not
I must then wonder how people feel about hair and nails. Do they have a separate spirit all their own? Can they feel pain? Or is it just possible that they are no more sentient or able to feel pain than is a blade of grass, a leaf or the bark of a tree. Isn't the bark of a tree comparable to a person's skin? Both are dead tissue and neither (speaking of the dermis), exhibit anything recognizable as a nervous system -- no means by which to transmit pain. So why would things without a nervous system feel pain as much as things with a nervous system?
To feel pain seems to require a central processing system of some sort. For animals this is the brain or similar grouping of neurons. Plants exhibit no such grouping. So where is the signal received and perceived as pain?
it is believed hunams have a soul, i think it would be more the inside than the outside, perhaps not our nails and hair having souls, as bark and leaves might not, it may just be what it was from the tree or person itself
If nature isn't alive then how does it grow? And why do people say that a tree is "dead" if it was never alive??
Trees are alive.
There are generally two basic kingdoms of living things; plants and animals. There are also protists, fungi, and a few other minor groups.
All of those things are alive and they fit the definition for "life".
Some seem to believe that if something is alive, it must be able to feel pain, despite the fact that in every tested case, things without a nervous system continually fail to show a reaction to painful stimuli.
Others seem to be suggesting that things like rocks, streams, iron deposits, mineral veins and other non-organic matter is also alive and/or may even have a soul.
I'm afraid I have to stick with the evidence and suggest that nothing has a soul, the definition for "life" does the best job possible of deciding what is and isn't alive, and if it doesn't have a nervous system, and a central nervous processing system, it probably can't perceive pain.
since when does having a soul had to do with being alive or feeling pain? there are people out there who never feel pain, do they not have a soul to those who believe in souls or spirits
I believe plants and animals have a spirit. For they also are conceived by seed as humans. Do not many of our pets return the love somehow to us? The trees a Indian tribe and I cannot remember the name of the tribe, says the trees carry the spirits of those who have passed over. When we cut a tree, flower, step on a insect..yes I do believe they carry some type of pain.
In the Holistic they believe gems carry much power of protection and health to the wearer. Much shall always remain a mystery...it is what is in one's heart and thoughts.
mysticwinds
I find what you said to be very true and believe these things myself..
If you have ever held a crystal or a stone and felt its energy you would also tend to agree with this as well.
I feel everything has some sort of energy that brings it to life and that helps give power, either to the creature or to people. I think to a certain extent people project themselves onto other living things. IE: a plant having feelings. No one really knows if they do or don't. Yeah they will respond to a persons voice but who's to say that it's not just the vibrations that help? But that is the scientist in me. On a more personal note though I feel that creatures do have feelings outside of that mother nature has programed into their survival skills. How can one explain in a scientific sense the bond we all share? and more than just on a molecular level? It's a hard question to answer really!
xXxSlaveAngelxXx
How can one explain in a scientific sense the bond we all share? and more than just on a molecular level? It's a hard question to answer really!
That was a good question indeed.. To me I say that in all honesty that It can't be easily explained at all nor under the circumstances should we always search for the reasons to explain all things..
Beastt's scientific definition of life works for me, and Dabbler's links on animism are important, especially when we use words like "feel" and "pain."
Trees have their own circulatory system, and they bleed sap when injured. But do they feel pain in the same way that we do? If a tree is felled in a grove, do the other trees cringe?
They are alive, but not sentient in the same that we are.
All the pain and feelings emanate from us. Getting a charge out of the physical world we live in --- nature --- even the rocks in the desert, is a treat. They're not alive, but my senses are.
if we ponder the word living as mans term of life, than things on earth would not be considered alive, yet many things do live here along with us plants and trees, many story tellers talk of things have spirits and are alive, HP lovecraft to say the least of tree spirits. so terms we can see living no, But i do believe in the word alive for most of them and the energy they give off.
It is my belief that everything is alive and has a spirit. The trees feel it when you cut them down. The forest cries out in agony when human tromp though it and break branches and kick trees. Animals know when they are being thought less of. They are intelligent creatures that understand what people say and think. They aren't just mindless animals that think only of survival. Remember that they are simply intuned with their instincts and we have been disconnected from them by lack of use. Rocks feel pain as well. Just because they don't seem to be alive and warm doesn't mean that they don't feel anything. Think about the meaning of spirit and soul before you chuck a rock into the water or at a wall or whatever. It hurts!
There is life and spirit and soul in everything. Whenever I get a new pet i do not choose their name I let them choose it. I will call for them by many names until they answer it. They are born and their parents names them just like our parents do. Don't judge them.
Is is just possible that as living, sentient, feeling creatures it's easiest for us to try to relate to other forms of life (and other structures), by endowing them with properties we have, whether they actually possess such properties or not?
That's how people came to believe that volcanoes were thinking, purposeful, angry entities. People might hurl fire and stones when angry, so to the simple primitive mind, endowing the mountain with purpose, anger and desire made sense. But it was wrong.
Man has done the same thing with earthquakes, storms, tsunamis, disease, droughts, hurricanes, tornadoes and virtually every dramatic natural event. Over time those of us willing to attempt to understand things in other than human terms have unlocked the true nature of such events. But some seem destined to continually repeat the mistakes of the past. It may be easiest to anthropomorphize (personify), in an attempt to gain understanding. But in every example of nature, such a process has proved inappropriate and yielded nothing but false conclusions.
Why might we expect that continuing to utilize the same failed principle is going to do other than yield the same false conclusions?
"Alive", "life", "living", "sentient" and "feeling" are all words man has developed to describe certain properties common to some entities. Rocks are not alive, they're not sentient, they possess no system of tactile awareness, they don't reproduce, don't exhibit homeostasis or metabolism. To assert that they are alive or sentient is to misapply those words as they are defined.
To assert that anything has a soul is to disregard objectivity and evidence and appeal instead only to one's personal desires and subjective opinions. And such a process has lead man on one wild goose chase after another since the first mutterings of superstitious dogma. Part of our survival depends on recognizing patterns. If we note that when others pick up a particular snake, they are bitten and die within days, it's beneficial to us to recognize the pattern so that we might avoid it ourselves. Should we note that berries of one color and form are good to eat while those of another color and shape are bitter or even seem to preceded death, we can utilize the pattern noted to our survival advantage.
Unfortunately, not every pattern we believe we see is truly indicative of the conclusions we draw. Man's insistence to disregard that fact has retarded our development throughout our history. Only in the past 400 - 500 years have we noted that there are accurate ways of determining the significance of patterns and inaccurate ways of drawing conclusions based on perceived patterns. That's why the scientific method was developed, refined and solidified. And it has lead to virtually every valid discovery made in the time it has been utilized. If we continue to subscribe to ideas of subjectivity and desire, we will continue to draw false conclusions.
The evidence shows that a form of nervous system is necessary for tactile awareness. Life does not exist without metabolism, structural organization, growth, homeostasis, adaptation, response to stimuli and reproduction. Plants are alive and animals are alive. A very few structures lie in between (such as a virus). But to say that rocks, sand, dirt, diamonds, oil reserves, mineral deposits and the like are "alive" is simply to misapply the term.
I have to agree with Beast on this one..... It makes a lot of since..
The only things i see that are alive is anything with a heart and blood pumping through it. As far as feeling pain, well pain is received by your brain and therefore if something has a brain then yes it can feel pain
i don't feel everything is alive
like rocks... i don't see them as alive
but as far as plants and animals go, i certainly believe they all experience sensations
maybe they do not identify with specific emotions the way humans do, but certainly they feel and react to stimulus
a study i once read about actually suggests trees communicate with each other chemically
if i can find a link to it i'll post it
Yeah, everything is alive, and has the same spirit, since it is made out of the same energy, coming from the completely same source of creation.
If you kill something, it really doesnt die, but goes back to the source.
Alix -
I'd have to disagree with you.
To be alive, something has to breathe, eat, think, feel. If someone or thing cannot do that it cannot be alive.
so dust has a will and emotions? maybe i shouldnt clean, dont want to offend the dust bunnies and hurt the hair-clump-in-the-drain's feelings.
If you kill something, the matter from which they were composed decays into smaller and smaller components. But those components do not fulfill the necessary functions to be considered living. So they're dead.
I agree that the matter can be converted to energy and even that the energy can be converted back into matter. But people are alive and stars aren't, even though the very elements from which your body is composed were originally assembled in the final destructive events which complete the cycle of a star's existence.
There appears to be no such thing as creation. There is only transition. But simply existing is not sufficient to be considered alive by any accurate definition of the word.
there is an interesting quote to ponder "in the beginning was the word, and the word was with god, and the word was god, and the word was made flesh" although made into flesh, it is still the word....
the wood from a desk is still a tree.
I have living bactira in my guts, it does not share my life, about 30% of every body contains it.
I dont think everything is alive...plants and trees, flowers etc. yes their alive but i dont think they have a spirit.... grass grows dirt doesnt so i doubt that its alive a wooden house not alive...i dont think nature has spirits either just people...
I hope not all things have feelings. The idea of cutting flowers or grass and causing is to much for me. Should it be taken advantage of & just use it till no more. NO. but feelings I hope never.
i belive somthings are alive,
i blive animals do have emotions and think
but things like tvs and books uh no
Petal
do you think that rocks are alive, have spirits
some people would also say things like ships, have spirits
I guess it all depends on the context in which you are speaking. Not everything is alive. My kindergarten school picture is not alive... the memories are alive. Paul Newman is not alive, his philanthropy is very much alive.
ok, we are all saying spirit, but what is this spirit, it is that energy we can sence of some things like crystals or are you talking about souls? hmmm, this is a hard thread, as in you have you conclusion then somone will say something to make you re think. i don't know what i think anymore on this point
TepesEnimga -
Who would say that ships have spirits? They can't breathe, and don't have a heart or brain.
Are you referring to ghost ships perhaps?
I have thought about this a lot. I have wondered if bugs feel pain and if they feel fear. I have read that we are the only ones that know we will someday die. I think elecphants know too though, as they do to the graveyards of their ancestors when it's their time. I wonder if the get sad that it's their time? Is it ego that scares into wanting to know we still go on after passing over to the other side? Why do we care if we live on in another form or not after we pass?
Now, does everything have a soul? Bugs? Trees? OJ Simpson? My husband's boss?
Am I wrong or am I seeing a certain amount of, "I want to believe it, therefore it's true; facts be damned!"?
Souls/spirits have never been shown to exist.
Life is well defined and anything which does not meet all seven factors of the defining criteria are simply not alive in any kind of biological sense.
And yes, animals feel pain. We're animals and we feel pain. I think it's arguable that life forms such as ants and lice probably do not experience fear in a manner comparable to what humans feel. But the existence of a nervous system indicates tactile awareness which is an evolutionary adaptation to provide us with a sense of tissue damage. That sense is pain. It allows us the awareness to attempt to limit the damage to our bodies and the willingness to do struggle if need be to avoid tissue damage. It seems to be coupled with a strong will to survive. Humans have it, gorillas have it, chimpanzees have it, cattle, sheep, dogs, cats, squirrels, geese, ducks, badgers, bears, deer, pigs, dove, quail, rabbits, elk, moose and chickens have it. And if their behavior when facing a lethal threat is any indication, they also experience fear and pain every bit as intensely as do humans.
Not everything is alive and not everything which isn't human is incapable of fear, affection, feelings, pain and a fear of the extreme harm which can lead to death.
i use to practice the eastern religions and i think it is possible that everything is alive per say,some even believe rocks and minerals are alive as well,i think honestly we wont truly know until we get to the other side right.
I'm sure I don't understand how one can read the criteria which must be met for anything to be considered alive, and then continue to proclaim that things which don't meet that criteria, might still somehow be alive.
To be alive requires all of the following;
1. Homeostasis - regulation of an internal environment to maintain a stable state.
2. organization - being composes of one or more cells which are the base components of life.
3. Metabolism - consumption of energy, converting non-living matter into components of cells.
4. Growth - maintenance of a higher rate of synthesis than catabolism
5. Adaptation - the ability to change over a period of time in response to the environment
6. Response to Stimuli - any number of potential responses as a direct result of stimulus
7. Reproduction - the ability to produce new living organisms
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life)
Remove even one of the seven criteria and the subject in question is not alive. There is no question or argument about it.
So we needn't wait till we pass to "the other side", assuming such exists (which is most certainly, an assumption). We can know right now because the words "life" and "alive" are man-made utterances with very specific definitions. And we can show that rocks, dirt, bodies of water and other inorganic units do not comply with the criteria for life -- they fail to meet the definition. They're not alive. There is no argument to suggest that they might be alive unless one first eliminates the definition of "life" and begins attempting to make an old word mean new things -- things which it doesn't mean.
if everythings alive.. i should really be apologising to my chair for sitting on it..
for all i know.. im suffocating it. :S
Ok. saying everything is alive might have been the wrong way to put it but I figured that not all of the inaminent (sp) objects would be added into this equation. When speaking of being alive or having a spirit or soul, I am looking at the creatures and plants that are on this earth.
Beastt & BlackHawk has a point along with several others that in order for something to be a live it must or should have a heart, blood, and breathe. However, looking at the ways that plants get their food and such would make me feel that they are a live as well because of the veins that run within the system.
Please do not apologize, CheetahCry. Your wording was absolutely appropriate. People do tend to suggest that things which are not alive, are, in some way, more like living things than an objective examination would suggest. The fault is not at all yours. It is only the failure of the assertion itself.
The corrections I would suggest is that living things don't have to possess a heart, don't necessarily have to breathe and may not need blood. Those things are not components of the definition for life. Secondly, plants are most certainly alive, but offer no credible indication that they are sentient or sense pain. That doesn't mean that they can't sense damage, through chemical signals, though what good this does a plant I'm not sure. They lack the ability to leave a harmful environment and can't pull a leaf or limb away from a damaging agent.
Plants get their food through photosynthesis (conversion of light, directly to sugar) and to a lesser degree, by drawing nutrients from the soil. This is fueled by transpiration rather than a heart. And in some ways, transpiration is much like perspiration, though the purpose it serves isn't the same. Leaves tend to be covered by tiny pores which can allow water to escape and evaporate. That causes a tiny vacuum which helps to draw more water from lower in the plant. That water contains the nutrients which feed the plant's tissues. So no heart is necessary.
But those who claim rocks, or bodies of water, ships, oil reserves, mineral deposits or metals might in some way be "alive" are simply missing the boat. Such things are inherently excluded from being alive by the very definition of "life".
The problem seems to be that people want to explore the unlikely and unevidenced and then despite emerging with no supporting evidence, to assert that the unlikely and unevidenced is indeed true, simply because the idea appeals to their subjective desires. They end up attempting to support their hollow assertions using known terminology, but the terminology itself renders their claims devoid of value.
Look to the claims of the spirit as "energy". Energy is a component of the physical -- a second state of matter. They claim to "see" their supposed non-physical entities and yet sight, is simply the utilization of physical detectors (your eyes), which function only to detect still more of the physical realm (photons). The very claim is self-refuting. The very terms used in the hope of offering support for subjective (desirous) beliefs and claims, show the claims to be false.
You can't see what isn't physical. (Of course since the physical is all there is, that should be clearly obvious. But for those who fail to recognize this, the mechanism of sight itself rules out seeing the non-physical.)
Non-physical things can't be energy. Energy is a purely physical concept. Claiming a non-physical entity to be "energy" is stating that it is physical, thereby refuting the claim that it's non-physical.
Things that don't qualify under the definition of "life", aren't alive. It's really quite simple. Suggesting that a rock is alive is no different than claiming that grain of salt is a diamond. It doesn't qualify under the definition for "diamond". It's not pure carbon despite being a crystal. It isn't hard enough to scratch glass. And a rock doesn't engage in metabolism, can't grow and doesn't reproduce. It doesn't display organization and exhibits no homeostasis. Any one of those renders it other than alive.
Plants themselves do have a type of brain and are alive as they feed and can reproduce. There have also been tests which prove they respond either positively or negatively to music.
Luna
No . Sailers will say that thier ships are very much alive. That they have spirit, personalty traits. They the feel and act certain ways. Myself, I was an army man. But many a navy vet has talked about their ships they served on. many of them loved their ship, as if it was a woman. They never refer to them as inanimate objects, but living breathing things, full of life and spirit.
A different meaning in the word 'living' then I suppose. I'd have to figure they get too attached to the ship maybe?
I agree that plants are alive. They fully meet all of the criteria for "life".
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But as for;
Re: "Plants themselves do have a type of brain"
Support this, please.
Where does this "brain" reside? What are the functioning components (neurons?)? How does it manifest in evidence?
---
And while it is true that research has been conducted which concluded that plants react differently to one kind of music than to another, I could conduct the same kind of research to show that fine wine glasses react differently to one kind of music than to another. Sound is simply vibrations and music is a fluctuating vibration in the (human) audible range.
Some make the mistake of believing that if plants react in a more "positive" way to classical than to rock, that it's demonstrating an aesthetic preference for a particular kind of music -- a form of sentience. Are the wine glasses which break when subjected to high-amplitude sound waves demonstrating sentience? Or are they simply demonstrating that a vibration of sufficient amplitude which matches the natural frequency of the glass can induce oscillations of sufficient magnitude to overcome the structural stability of the glass?
It would make little sense for plants not to respond to vibrations. Those vibrations should have some measurable effect on the metabolic processes in the plant. metabolic processes are all physical (mostly chemical), and should react to being shaken. There should be no surprise that certain frequencies and amplitudes would render various effects to the plant's metabolic processes. The mistake is to suggest that this observation in any way demonstrates a sentience or preference by the plant itself.
Luna,
Such references to ships (planes, cars, lenses, bicycles, paintings, etc.), are metaphorical, not biological. If one asserts a ship to be "alive" in the biological sense then they adopt the burden of proof to show that the ship exhibits homeostasis, organization (structured of living cells), engages in metabolism, exhibits growth, can adapt in response to the environment, responds to physical stimuli and can reproduce. When they fail in that endeavor, they have refuted their own assertion.
I was mostly referring to the plant cells 'nucleus''. Although, technically, I guess that wouldn't count as a plants true brain.
I myself would never subscribe that a ship or anything else inanimate is alive. Hense the word inanimate. But since hald of this topic was about if something had a spirit as well as being alive, I brought up the ships. Myself, I don't quite beleive it myself, but then I never served aboard ship either.
Beastt17 -
''Such references to ships (planes, cars, lenses, bicycles, paintings, etc.), are metaphorical, not biological. If one asserts a ship to be "alive" in the biological sense then they adopt the burden of proof to show that the ship exhibits homeostasis, organization (structured of living cells), engages in metabolism, exhibits growth, can adapt in response to the environment, responds to physical stimuli and can reproduce. When they fail in that endeavor, they have refuted their own assertion.''
That's kind of what I meant with 'different sense'. As no inanimate object can do anything which would qualify them to be alive.
I guess one could also theorize, that the ships might somehow absorb some of the essence of all the living beings that have served aboard them for all those years. Similar to a haunted house if you may. That could explain the spirit aspect of ships. Just a thought.
My apologies, Luna. The post I addressed to you was intended to be addressed toward TepesEnigma. I see that both of you have responded and I thank you for your input.
Perhaps I'm wrong but I think I'm seeing a confusion between "neuron" and "nucleus" -- two very different structures. The nucleus is the central structure of a cell where various components are housed (often DNA among them). A neuron is itself a kind of cell and the base level component of nerves and the brain.
Plants do have cells and those cells do contain nuclei. But a nucleus is not a neuron. Plants do not have anything distinguishable as any form of brain or nervous system.
Beastt17 -
No need to apologize. Your point was well put. ;]
TepesEnigma -
Haunted houses aren't technically alive, though.
They're haunted by spirits or ghosts or poltergeists which get them the name. They aren't haunted within themselves as to cause them the ability to move.
More accurately, they are claimed to be occupied by spirits, ghosts, poltergeists, etc. None of these claims has ever been objectively confirmed.
The house is not alive, nor would a supernatural entity qualify as "alive", were one confirmed to exist in the form they are asserted (assumed), to exist.
I see your point as to the brain of the plants. I guess I was going along with the necleus that control the cell helps the plant in a way with it's functioning and can be considered a type of brain, although not a true one.
I don't believe everything in nature is alive.... Like the rock I skip across the water. The rock its self isn't alive, but I am sure that it has fungus's, bacteria, and viruses growing in and on it..... The aids virus isn't even considered to be alive... Its a protein based virus. It reproduces, yet there are traits about it that aren't traits of a living organism... I have a paper that I worked on about it... I am sure I can find it and post a few things more....
Like I said, I'm just passing along what was said to me. Myself, I am a doubting thomas. I personally don't beleive in haunted houses, ships being possessed or ghosts. I have to encounter something to beleive in it. So far, I have never had any type of paranormal encounter.
MichaelxArc -
Actually, no virus is considered alive. All virus' are non-living things as they don't have any brain function, or need to breathe or eat or anything else.
Viruses do consume something from the body, that is how they multiply because if they didn't consume something they would eventually just wither away from multiplying so much without consuming something to replace what the virus has used to multiply.
The key to the status of a virus is that it fails one of the seven criteria. It can't reproduce. Instead, it has to hi-jack the reproduction mechanisms of a cell and relies upon the cell to reproduce the virus. A brain is not one of the requirements of "life". Some will disagree but I think Washington holds many fine examples of life forms without a brain (or at least, without a conscience). ;)
Plants, fungi and protists are considered life forms, yet have nothing comparable to a brain - a central sensory repository and processing organ.
Oooh, I'm quite sure they have brains. ;] They just lack intelligence. So they have empty tissue in their heads ... lol.
i think the thought of everything is alive can very by meaning from one individual to another and even with proven fact there will be belief systems that will not change an individuals outlook on life and what is and what is not alive,i do believe not only science has a great say so on this but also ones own personal faith on what is o what is not living be it still life or movable life.
I'd like to think that nature has a spirit and it is speaking with us but no one is listening. Cause if you think about it storms, the wind, rain, earthquakes, and snow is all natures way of speaking. I think even plants have their own spirits. They eat and grow...So why not.
TheTimeImperfect -
How so? If they were natures way of talking, what do you think the different things would say?
Anthropomorphizing might be a help for us to understand things that are not human. But the concept shouldn't be applied to things that aren't living or sentient. It just leads off into all kinds of erroneous conclusions.
Anthropomorphizing is how people came to cast their children into volcanoes as a way to appease the "angry" mountain.
The concept should be utilized very cautiously.
not everything is alive but the things that are, I think they have an essece.
when i stub my toe on some obsticle i curse it out as though it intended to harm me. "stupid coffee table!" etc.
That's a great point, HotTubMolly! I've made the same observation myself and even if we have stopped doing this as adults, the vast majority of us (probably all of us), did it as children. We attempt to understand the coffee table in human terms, as though it had intent to harm us. And that's exactly the way primitive men saw volcanoes. If the mountain suddenly belched smoke and ash and then rained down fiery rock to burn their crops and homes, it must be terribly angry at them. So they saw the volcano as being alive and having intent, simply because as humans, that's what made the most sense to them. So they attempted to appease the mountain's anger by offering food, praise and/or their own children. But they were wrong.
And today we have plenty of examples that show when we anthropomorphize inanimate objects, we'll always arrive at erroneous conclusions. It may be an instinctive thing to do, but in light of the understanding we (should) hold today, it's not the rational thing to do.
Actually Beastt I would consider what Hottubmolly said to be something that happens on a regular basis. Its just something that happens when pain is caused to one's physical form. Not because its an object that is in the way of what you are doing
Cheetahcry,
My point is that it's an example of anthropomorphization, (as I mentioned about four posts before HTMolly's post. Not only is it an example which demonstrates our natural tendency to anthropomorphize (to see intent as though the coffee table were a person with intent), but it demonstrates why that tendency can lead us to such erroneous conclusions.
Point taken Beastt and I can understand what you are saying but my point on the subject is that everyone has a belief system that they use. Whether it is percieved as scientific or not does not matter.
I thank everyone for their vioces on the subject and look forward to seeing more.
You know, i think that theory ties in with the "God particle" theory. They say that EVERYTHING, including ourselfs, are all built up on the foundation of this "God particle" So, if we feel, everything else Must feel because its made from the same thing as us?!
A person with a phobia fixed to an object. Could feel stalked by things, a foundation for a scary behavior pattern comes from such phobias.
-chuckles- Hottubmolly -
That's probably just clumsiness rather than it being out to get you.
FacelessUnknown -
Not all humans feel. The ability to feel is not something that makes one alive.
dabbler -
Because one may feel stalked by an item does not make said item alive. It just shows said person may have a paranoia disorder.