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I hear many people claiming "experiences" in forum post, then when others inquire they state, "I don't have to explain my beliefs."

Beliefs are one thing (personal), just like another persons reasons for not believing.

But Claims of Experiences, and observable demonstrations are convincing.

Whats the difference between believing in something, and claiming to have seen/experience something?

In your opinion why are some people not content to have people accept their belief, but scrutinize vague accounts of experiences relating to that belief?

How does one explain something of a paranormal nature (I think this is what you mean) that is strange in itself and requires a certain amount of belief to someone who has no interest in the first place and is skeptical.

Example: If I was to explain to you my channeling experiences and yes, I believe them to be factual and what happened to be real, how could I or anyone else for that matter persuade you to believe what "I" experienced was more than just my wishfulness or gullibility?

This is what I used to talk about to a friend all the time, "perception." I have been around the occult and metaphysical groups for years. I do not call them "New Agers" and poo poo their beliefs. Some of these beliefs are not new at all. Some are misunderstood or have different explanations depending on the circle. These ideas have had a Renaissance of sorts. Why one person finds a belief or activity to be real for them has not been explained beyond accusing someone of either being mental or needing some focus to make the world seem more fantastical to get away from the mundane.

Sometimes people just don't want to try to explain everything because when they do people will come out of the woodwork who have never heard of or experienced the same things and you get lambasted and it's an endless explaining session.

"Observable demonstrations" implies that recordable evidence may be available to back up such claims, but "claims of experience" requires the audience to take the speaker's word at face value.

Most people have more faith in the former, less in the latter.

As an example only, in the Baptist Denomination of Christianity they denounce signs and wonders, while in the Penecostal Denomination they roll around on the floor.

What becomes of those who hear others profess such experiences, and subscribe to the belief of the person professing such experiences, only to either never witness such things, or only be shown what they know to be parlor tricks, or perceived illusions.

A person that shares a belief, is likely to refute any claims made by others, correct?

Those who resign to none sensational expectations relating to their beliefs are better embassadors to their faith, this is my observation.

After " haunting" a professed Ghost Whisper, and spooking the poo out of her, I had to personally inquire," Why would a person who professes to have
Numerous enounters with ghost ( she claimed to see, and hear ghost) come undone with simple FXs. "

At the base us the narrative of the claimed experience. Some are better story tellers then others.

I grew up in a Baptist home..my father was a Deacon and my mother a Sunday school teacher.At least in the churches I had to go to growing up and my fathers beliefs...demons do not exist there for they can't possess anyone.Unless you see it or hear it yourself,it is not true...now I have my own beliefs and they are not even close to what he believes in.You can grow up around people with strong faith and stronger beliefs and NOT have the same belief systems.

I think experience relay to the belief statement. Look at the old Amytiville house and the people who have claimed the paranormal within the house, yet proven or disproven by others would not change their beliefs in what they say has occured and they would not step back inot the houses.

Skeptics or not would say that trickery or false delusions have occurred, yet their experiences weighed more on them than the facts that could or did apply to the situation.

Personal beliefs and what is discussed are for the individuals on their perception of things, wether a religion based or ghost experience, no matter what i say or anyone will not change this situation.

Yes, that is very true. I grew up around pentacostals. Yeah, they speak in tongues and roll around on the floor. But I became.....atheist? agnostic? I'm not sure, but I'm not that. (lol maybe i'll become a buddist monk.... What do you think?lol)

True, Dab but i think your illustration is a little different than some others I have heard.

For example; I have never experienced astral projection nor seen any evidence of its existence. Therefore; I don't believe it's possible. Yet I always meet people who swear it to be true and provide narrative to that effect. Neither I, nor they, will exchange beliefs.

Thoth valued point, our experience if any would not change the mind of those who do not believe or has never expeirenced something strange in their life. Many people look for answers even if non is to be had. yet they determine the plasible rational idea of what did happen.

religion we all grew up with some in our lives and yet as we matured found th right path in which we live our lives now. pirtualy i have changed and do not follow the paths of my parents in this acpect, yet my beliefs are mine and do not push the boundries on theirs.

Basically everyone sees the world through different eyes.Eight people can sit in a room with an open mind on the Mentalist that is "reading" everyone.Two of the people can be plants he placed there to help him out.Twp people can be skeptics and investigating him.The other four are people who believe in what he does.Now the Mentalist knows who his people are so they will "pretend" to be shocked when he says something "personal" about them.

What if the four that believe told the helpers about something no one could know and the Mentalist "picks up" on it.Either they will react as he expected or they might realize they were had.

Some people go to cemeteries to "see"ghosts or spirits or even "orbs".They do so because it is their belief they exist.I do not believe in this so I doubt very much I would see these things,even if I were beside them.

Dab, do you suppose that our beliefs are created and reinforced by our experiences, or is it the other way around?

Hmmm...

Personally i think that experience happens regardless of belief , it,s because i,ve exsperienced things that i,ve looked to reason them , and then developoed beliefs .

Very Articulated questionion Thoth, one I have, and continue to study, there is a pretense involved in either camp. It is not hard for me to imagine how beliefs give people relief, when so much emotionslism is invested, people can
be edgy, and authoritarian. Some present it sublingually
Implied as " If you believe in A, and B then surly you can reasonsbly believe/ accept my A•1-5, and B:a-p as well..

Should an " keeping an open mind" have anything to do with what someone practices spiritually? People who simple assume that nonbelievers never believed are ignoring, and evasive of any question that may hint of pretense
( not in what they believe) in claimed ability, experience, sighting, ..

Dab,thats the great thing about the human mind,we can think,and believe what we like.I don't always agree on some things others think are real and they disagree highly with how I think and believe.Just because we don't have the same beliefs doesn't mean we are all wrong in those beliefs.

Thats good when both parties subscribe to beliefs. Some people do not bother subscribing to any faith. The core belief vs belief of Testimony, and analogy.

The cases that support this are routine, hoaxes targeting believers.. Just for showing crafted illusions to flatter peoples faith, people so convinced, maybe not sheep. If more people went around quietly practicing what the profess, applying it.. Without chatting up the crowd with proclaiming narrative, they may find others asking them if they are initiated.

I believe and have had expierences too.
I learnded not to cast pearls before swine.

I think there are people that are what might be termed, "professional skeptics." Perhaps it is for want of a more exciting life that they intrude on others beliefs. What is sad is there are bad apples within the ranks of various groups whether they be metaphysical, religious, occult or stage magicians. Mentalists are actors and I know that real psychics do not like them.

What most of this boils down to is personal philosophy but MY opinion is those who are the skeptics are close minded and those who are not skeptics for the most part are open minded about things. Now I am not meaning that others don't quantify and scrutinize things but they are not fanatics like most skeptics. They give themselves more room to explore and ferret out the truth of things rather than starting off in the negative.

Amityville, as was mentioned had many investigators over time. Sometimes things attach to certain individuals and not the dwelling. It ruined the Lutz family because they were sued. They moved to San Diego where I use to live and Mr. Lutz died recently in Julian. The wife has been passed for awhile. The skeptics literally devastated this family and there really was no proof they lied other than inferred because of no experiences of those who later bought the home and were irritated by all the constant looky lous. It was known that they had financial problems and why they didn't really want to move right away. It became the banner many used to say they made it all up which was entirely unfair. They never represented themselves as being wealthy. Sometimes skeptics step over boundaries they shouldn't just for the sake of being right. Beliefs are beliefs and can't be proven unless science in some way stubbles across answers then all of a sudden everyone does a 360 and voila it is fact. Case in point the old debate in the past on the earth being flat as opposed to being round. There are still people most call loonies that believe it is all a scam and the earth is indeed flat, lol. I say live and let live and don't always be so quick to label someone as being a liar, fraud or demented. Until you step into someone else's shoes it is only fair to give a little leg room on viewpoints.

Claiming an Experience and explaining your beliefs are two different things you can have a experience with something and it has nothing to do with what you may believe in , and your beliefs if they are strong enough , you may never experience anything related to your beliefs ,you don't see god but thousands believe in him but few can ever claim they saw or felt him.

i think beliefs are valid via experience - they have become real by LIVING... otherwise we can just run around claiming A B C or D with having only a vicarious understanding... and that seems like rubbish to me.

if i believe i'm a jedi... that's great and all. maybe i have even convinced myself i can lift x-wing fighters and weld a lightsaber. but until i have been trained as and lived as a jedi am i truly one...

Expeirences make our lives and beliefs are just not religion based, what about the believe in yourself, or the belief in the structure of your life,

Experience add to these beliefs and form a structure and path in which one carries themselves now and will eventually form newer experience as we grow old.

Belief in knowing or assuming are ones right, topics of all planes, yet we do pick and choose what we must assume false or true. Yet if given any topic yet not know to us we presume it false, yet those who have had expeirences with it it is greatly true.

Hoax or not it is the expeirences that add a degree of truth to the topic. if I have never seen a ghost, than should i claim that they do not exist, yet on a spectrum I would have some faith in what is being told.

Belief and expeirence are hand and hand on a lot of cases.

re: Until you step into someone else's shoes it is only fair to give a little leg room on viewpoints.

I don't know... sometimes I can see the merit in this...but if someone insists that the world is flat, and I can easily prove them wrong with nothing more than a sextant and a boat; I don't really want to give them any legroom in a debate. Their beliefs are demonstrably less valid than mine (in this example).

True Thoth,

Yet the perseption of something yet proven or not know we have little to go on besides the experience of others for the debate. And in some cases our beliefs in whether physically or logically that this could or could not happen.

True, CW.
And that requires us, the audience, to consider the narrator of such stories to be an authority or - at least - a credible observer. I think we're all reluctant to give other people that credibility even when our own beliefs are of similarly dubious origins, which goes back to Dabbler's original question.

Belief this, belief that, is this all about beliefs ? No, it is about claims, claims that people profess.. there are more cases of fraud from "psychics" then their are Public Praise for" Psychics", even if a person accepts/subscribes to a belief, they are not always accepting of claims by those who share that belief. Yet those within the belief would still call them closed minded.. I am seeing pathetic sheep post in this thread. People are intdimadated by obviously by those who would accuse them of being closed minded, not because they don't accept/subscribe to a belief. But because they don't care to consider claims of "psychic powers", or "Hightened senses", or some hack narrated "Ghost sighting".

Even believers doubt, and question text.. so to present yourself as "Open minded is Moot."

Cliams can be verified, a person is convinced by a demonstration, or observeation (which as illusionist show us can be fooled) , there is no belief involved in narrative. Every person claims something compromises their account when they first say. "It is my belief that what I saw.. "
Now that your mind is "Opened" perhaps you should consider Expanding it.

As for implying that sceptics seek to be "Right" and do nothing but point out how "Wrong" believers are. That is a cope-out, and fallacy of logic. It implies that believers are somehow" Right" and skeptics need to "consider that they may be wrong.

This does hold some weight with beliefs (minus all the attached claims of physical demonstrations, or claimed experiences).

So handling of beliefs is not my concern here, it is isolating the professed (often broken narratives) experiences, sightings, and such.

If you say you believe something.. then are these experiences so important.. and why are people so desperate to have others accept their claims? What response is expected.. "Oh that is so convincing so-and so *clap* *clap. Even if I was a believer I would still disregard any professed experiences, why because it is a game of one up man ship.

watch out dabbler... you might confuse the believers here...

It is just that believers tend to imply that they are above being critical of others in their faith. As if they validate the claims of everyone, I mean they will not admit to ever being jaded.

If a person tells of sighting an Alien Group, the next person will likely say "Yea I did as well, but the Probed me in the butt.."

They may even occasional preempt their testimony with "That's not how I saw it.."

I think believers may be critical of others, yet so are fact hunters that make the same conclusions of others.

Is the difference fact or fiction, belief or myth.
experience true can be shown over those who fictionalize the same story.

I posted this in the What we need thread by Accident.

Some Nonbelievers have once believed. They may still believe, but be less acceptable to sensational claims of experiences. Even people who are interested in hearing more details accounting claimed experiences/ observational affirmations are commonly rebuked for inquiring.

To often I see people present the accounts of others as their own, changing nothing but the "My friend and I .." To My sister and I.. "

People questioning the validity, and account of experiences, is not necessarily questioning the persons belief.

True there is a differnce, yet some to cloud the two together for their own security blanket.

Mean while people seeking physical affirmations are prayed upon by those who know how they suppress critical thinking to be sensational assured of their beliefs.

Yes i totally agree experience and belief are different.. when you experience somekind of paranormal experience does not mean that your beliefs would be the same.....But it might be awakening you....

Does a magician actually believe he is sawing a woman in half, and then magically reconnecting her?

If a person told you they witnessed a person being sawn in half and joined back together by a " Guru" who professed to tap a devine power.. would you
actually consider that a person witnessed a demonstaration of divine power?

People will believe any thing popular, and well packaged.. Thats fine.

But when a person ( wether they share base beliefs, or not) scrutinizes a personal observation professed by a believer, the believer is often offended
( unless the person is a fellow believer, who then is expected to reply. But how does a believer expect other believers to respond to far fetched "experiences" and " alledged sightings".

I know that "magicians" are fake and use misdirection and props to fool the viewer.Unlike some who actually believe Chris Angel is demonic or possessed to do the illusions he performs.

you can become a believer in something if you have had an expieriance. ... now try to explain that experiance to a non-believer and they will try to make you feel insane.
i think it is important that we listen to each others accounts of things and not be so fast to judge them. many storys sound far fetched for sure but unless you see it for your self you take a persons word for what they have exp or believe in because of those exp's.

Thats is a backward take, it usually happens the other way. Even as a one time seeker/ believer I was less then impressed to accept every professed experience. I notice also how most experiance testimonials evolve with some, usually in relation to what others have Testified to regarding experience.

If a person tells me I should consider their investment plan, I am first not obligated to consider it. If they go on to profess that they made a 75 percent
after fees profit, in a few months.. I will likely question such a claim , even if I subscribe to the investment plan, I can scrutinize the individuals claim.

by all means you have a right to chose to believe or not to believe a persons accounts of what they claim. however if your closed minded you may never see the things that may be right in front of you...its like taken a car and paint one side blue and the other side black and you put 2 people at differant vantage points of sight one person is gonna swear it was a blue car that drove by and another person is gonna swear it was a black car and technicly they both are right from thier own point of view of the subject. :P

So do you believe everything people tell you? Are you familiar with the distinct differences between believing, and conviction are, can you tell when a person is disingenuonuos .

An experience is any event which you observed;

belief is having a judgement about the event for which you have only your own previous observations and conclusions;

and science (pseudoscience) would be having a judgement about the event based on observations validated by other objective observations.

Oops...

the difference being that there are some peopl out there who will state that they have had an experience without making any form of judgement call on teh observation, simply that it occured and that they are not trying to squish the experience into tehir ptrobably limited POV.

And it must be taken in to account ( as the Alpha Project demonstrates) that even trained/ professed observerers can be fooled.

i dont believe everything people tell me my dear, i take what people say and rationalize it with my own personal expierances and then i chose what i want to believe. the world is a strange place and there are many unknowns and no one person ever has all the answers ...it takes more then eggs to make a cake.

So would you rather a person simple share beliefs with you, but question your professed experiences?

oh deffinately i want to share in other peoples exp's. like sweat lodgen or for instance if someone takes the same meds they react differantly in each person one person may get a rash and the other may vomit and yet another may get light headed, i have a very eclectic belief system from what i have actually learned and from what i have exp. i have adopted chinese beliefs and many other cultures .

ThothLestat
Posted: 10:50:37 - Apr 08 2009
Times viewed: 233

"Observable demonstrations" implies that recordable evidence may be available to back up such claims, but "claims of experience" requires the audience to take the speaker's word at face value.

Most people have more faith in the former, less in the latter."

I am in total agreement with his statement.

Dabbler...(to you're original post.)

I think part of it is the fact it's the internet, that it's a public forum, and there's the element of proof, lack thereof, and credibility.

Also, some experiences are pretty personal in nature, in the explanation of them, certain details we might not necessarily want out there for everyone to know are compelled to be explained.

As an example..I think awhile back I was fairly vague in an explanation of something I experienced that causes me to believe we do exist in some form, after death.

Back in 1996, I was in a relationship with a man for three years, we planned to get married, but he got killed by a drunk driver. We were extremely close, usually aware of each other's presence around the house even if we werent always within eye sight of one another. The night he was killed, I was still very much in a state of shock. But I had the strongest, purely subjective I'm sure, feeling that he was in the house, in the dining room, in a rage and feeling completely helpless about what had happened to him. It was just like when you walk into a room with people and there's alot of emotional turmoil...you can sense the tension and the emotion coming from them, only in this case, it was just him, and I could feel his emotions roiling off him as though he were standing right there.


That's an extremely personal story, one that cant exactly be duplicated by way of scientific experiment, and there was no proof to collect when it happened, much less now, 13 years later.

But here's the real rub...it IS a true story. But you dont know me from adam really. You have no idea if I'm telling you the absolute truth here. What would it take to prove that I ever had a fiance, or that he was ever killed by a drunk driver in the first place? Well, I could fax you copies of photographs of the both of us, his old drivers license, and all of the court documents, his death certificate and the newspaper reports published during the trial, which incidentally, also lists my real life personal information..not something I'd want floating around the internet.

Not to mention I'd need at least a fax number from you do so....do either of us know each other well enough to trade in this information at all? No. Certainly not publically, over a forum message board.

Then there's the fact that the whole experience is one related well after the fact, purely subjective in nature, and had, while in a state of shock and grief. Not exactly a state of mind most scientifically minded people would consider credible either.

I wouldnt blame anyone for having doubts as to it's validity, but why would I up and volunteer it for possible attack by a group of strangers? For that matter, human nature being what it is..even if I did lose my ever-loving mind and fax you every document related to the crash, the trial, the sentencing, it's a thick file, and I doubt you'd really want to sit down and read it all.

I can relate to that . To me it comes down to account, or narrative. I much rather have a person find a creative outlet. Pretty soon all the exasurated experiences reach beyond complex..

Somethings really spook people who profess much.. And when they are " put on the spot" feign any number of social evasive exercises.

December I can relate to how that feels. A sentimental twing.. It wretches the vitals, so with that degree of understanding that as a moderate person I seek applicable ( hands on) crafts : hobbies. My hobbies have included spooking people together ( it builds team work, and allows fresh men to be candid .

I have observed how people react to others being scared, formulated by residuals from astonished accounts. When something do subtle is hyped
By astonishment, it leads people to jack shops, it demeans the application
and allows for turning sketics into cynics.

On public.. Share your beliefs.. In circles of three in agreement share testimony. Depth is equal to devotion.

I agree with ~DN~ completely, some experiences are unprovable even if she gives all the evidence of the story their is so way you can prove her feeling of the presence of her couple at that moment of experience, skeptics want things they can't get just by asking, some things are worth finding to understand the nature before jumping into conclusions or flagging someone as delusional, if it was just like that, then the whole world is delusional and insane for believing in a unseen,unproven higher form..it takes personal experiece to grasp on something, some accept it other questions it..the keyword here is reasoning, what for you and others is ideal for their acceptance of reality. I know the confusion between what if she is lying with her story or what if she is making this up, you can just in your own concience take what you think is true and what it is not. To those who process to be vampires and have abilities or traits as the myth holds, we can't never know if it's real or not in here, to ask for proof of that with links it's never enough to judge, we can only question why's and what's, belive them or ignore and think of them as roleplayers.

Testimony of experiences are best shared among those within ones faith.

When people relate experiences, and events they observed it is just as much what is not said that cast reasonable doubt on their personal conviction. You can find an example in DNs post.

In fabricated, or embellished stories leave out, or offer too many details.

It's not always possible to prove something and is not always possible to talk about it, and it's not always easy.

I had ghost/paranormal experiences, I have no proves about it except my experiences, what can I do more?

Others can choose to believe me or not. It doesn't make any difference to me unless, that particular someone thinks I'm a liar or crazy. Certain experiences should not be told, I never hidden my ghost/paranormal experiences but it's not safe to tell everything.

As well as it's not that easy either if I have everyone who is skeptic, yet I'm not going on TV or whatever to tell the whole world: ''look at me I had ghost/paranormal experiences, now believe me because I'm saying it publicly.'' That's why I don't go around and tell my experiences to everyone, I know where I'd be send if I told my experiences to everyone I met. Even though this could be contradictory because I'm telling it on the internet-but it's not the same-this is a forum and I'm being vague.

Then maybe that's why someone says: ''I can't tell,'' but it could also mean that they just want you to believe that.

Even though I had my experiences I don't believe everything, I say anything is possible but there are some things which I refuse to believe, usually I say because they're too fiction related or the particular person changes her/his version often, or is exaggerated. Not everyone who believes is a fool or crazy.

I don't ask for proves because I know that's not always possible to prove so, let's take religious faith for example, can that have proves? You either believe in it or you don't. It's like when you hear something about someone, you can believe or not-even though this is a different example from the topic-yet it is something that happens constantly, yet we do the same thing, we either believe or not or choose to get to know the person-yet we can get a different impression, because everyone views things and people differently, or gets a different experience.

Liars exist as much as those who tell the truth, then to know difference between the one or the other, it's not always possible unless you are omnipotent. *giggles at the omnipotent word* that's why you choose to believe or not.

~looks at Dabbler a moment~

No offense, but no you cant relate in the least, and to be blunt, I hope you never find yourself in such a position where you truly could.

As for your comments espousing disbelief...I took the risk of being called a liar, so fair enough. You remark that accounts, when fabricated, are either too detailed, or not detailed enough....

I'm going to assume you mean the account was not detailed enough, because yeah, I left a great deal out. It was a violent crash Dabbler, most people dont like it when I mention my late fiance, nevermind the details. The sense of his presence after death was the least disturbing part of the story, really.

But that's okay you think I'd lie to you about something like that. You proved my whole argument right there.

No no.. December N, I find your account an exeption! It lacks the hall marks of fabricated tales/ accounts, I am sorry if I was not clear. I find your post to shed light on the topic.

I believe that having an "experience" is to physically see and feel. To "believe" is something in your inner self. What makes you who you are. The "experience" may teach you or give you a new perspective on your"beliefs".

In my opinion if the experience was so amazing and so enlightening and since many non believers are just looking for some sign/proof then isn't it selfish to keep it to yourself?

Why bother mentioning it around either believers, or nonbelievers if you are not willing to answer some direct inquiries into your alleged experience.

I have actially witnessed people presenting others peoples testimonies as their own, on this site..

Dabbler that post gave me de jau vue, I swear you posted it before,

And true no matter the topic in society there are those who rebuttle anything based on what they have read and percieved. This is so great with our culture and which makes us human and not robots. we are entitled to our opinions and we stick out from others on this bases.

If you believe in something, you accept the possibility that it may be real. If you have experienced it, you are claiming that it exists and you've seen it.

Through ages people have done this. It's human nature. People want you to believe that their way is better and they related to bad experiences that they had. It's the art of persuasion .

Simple response. Some people are jerks just looking to start crap.

People are always searching for answers to the unknown. It is our curious nature. for if we know everything than we would have nothing to fear. for everything would be black and white.

Well, throughout the hallowed halls of VR -- I do find that more often than not, people want to have some sort of "relevant" contribution. So, that shadow that they jumped away from that was really a tree branch becomes claws and glowing eyes... If you don't believe the narrator, then damn you! How dare you call them out on their non-experience.

It's interesting, even on a site that deals with all things "less ordinary" how many people suddenly become overwhelmed with the compulsion to force a square peg of a normal story into a more mysterious hole.

All of that being said -- there are those who must come up with some story, true or otherwise for the need to be noticed and belong. On the flipside, there are some that have stories that are laden with relevant facts and have a level of plausibility that lends more credibility.

i think the difference between believing in something and experiencing something,is that believing is based off of faith, and experiencing something applies to one or more of the senses. whether it be sight, sound, whatever. just believing something is out there is just an idea, basically that you think, or maybe even have a gut feeling about...but no real tangible evidence. ya know? but experiencing something, you have that tangible evidence...again, whether sight, sound, feeling, what have you.



but yeah...
thats basically all i have to say.

most people are not really sure what they believe and in defense of said beliefs they get defensive and say things that make no sense. I am sure of my beliefs so I will explain, not argue anything you want me to

Some people feel like if they believe it they do not have to explain it. But when they actually experience sometimes they feel the need to talk about it because it proves their beliefs in some cases.

I'm not really sure what the difference is, I suppose it comes from an individuals perspective.

However I think the response "I don't have to explain my beliefs to you." Is often used as a defense. Some people are up for a good debate and others are not. On the same note some people's idea of debate is to go for the throat until they make the other person submit, and it's hard to have a "conversation" with people like that.

I for one avoid even commenting on some stuff in the public forums simply because there are people on here who seem to feel the need to crush everyone's opinions that do not line up with their own.

Maybe people should try allowing other people to express their ideas and opinions with out being met with animosity.

Just because you claim you are not being a jerk, doesn't mean that you're not being a jerk.

Well the example of the flat vs round earth was only to show that those on the far end of beliefs can be loony as well as those who are constantly skeptical. Nothing more. You have people fighting now as to whether the US actually landed on the moon or it was staged to get ahead in the space race. I personally don't know. I was alive then and I think they went there. Could I prove that, hardly. I believe they haven't gone farther with manned space flight due to the harmful effects of space radiation and the length of time it would take. We need to progress farther.

Now in the late 80s I went to Orange County to a meta-church to see a very famous British Psychic who was visiting the US speak and then read. (he is so famous I have forgotten his name, lol) He was a trance medium and channeled. We did meet him prior and his wife who is from Ireland originally. We talked about family things in regard to Ireland but nothing more.

He called up my daughter and of course I went up with her since she was under 18. We sat there. Mind you we only spoke of casual things. I had never met any of them prior nor had my daughter who was I believe in late elementary school. He was being observed the whole time by someone from "Eye on LA" at the time who spoke of all that had happened. Some unusual. One funny thing just to show that it can come out of the same area of belief but still have skeptics there. He went off on a mentalist who is well known in Los Angeles and basically called him a fake. He also talked about J.Z. Knight (Ramtha). He didn't say she was fake but that she doesn't channel, that the entity is possessing her...long story. Well anyway after telling my daughter various things I can't remember now he turned to me. He was channeling a guide and he said, "your grandmother watches over you." Now this is a very open statement anyone could say. I said, "which one?" Both were passed at the time. He said, " the one who sews." Now they most likely both knew how to sew, right? The thing about it was this. About two weeks or less prior to going here I was in my Mother's bedroom talking to her. I had been taking quilting classes. No one was around and this daughter wasn't even home then. I wanted to take a quilting top into my class my grandmother had made. We got to talking about her, my Mother's mother and she started telling me that my grandmother had worked in a sewing room as a job and how she could make her own patterns and things like that. Sooo, naturally when he said this the hair stood almost on end on my arms when I got goosebumps. There was no way he could have known. The church is maybe 30 miles or more away from where the house was and there was nothing in the trash or anyone around. It could have been a good guess perhaps or maybe it was mind reading, lol. I have dreams where I see my grandmother's rocking chair in them rocking. It is like she would let me know she was around. I have heard her voice calling my name and out of the blue this man says this. It was something never talked about by many in the family. This man was from England. So I cannot explain it to myself as being anything else but paranormal.

Since I am telling stories I will relate another incidence. I was at this same church but living where I do now which is at least 30 miles away. I went there to see two friends ordained as ministers. After the ordination I went outside and was sitting on the patio under an umbrelled table. A lady I did not know and had never met prior came over and asked if she could sit there and I said sure. Everyone was having punch and cookies there.

We started to chit chat and Labor Day was not far off. We started talking about what we were going to do over Labor Day weekend. I don't know why to this day but I got nostalgic. When I was in 10th grade I had a crush on a senior. He sat in front of me in biology and was captain of the football team. He was a really nice guy and VERY good looking. All the girls would talk about him. He was killed early on in the Vietnam war but I never knew anymore details than that. I cried when I heard about it.

I mentioned to her that I was going to go to this little fair that was nearby where I lived. Then went into the fact that the park where they held it had been named after this guy and how I had had a crush on him and such. It brought tears to my eyes. The lady suddenly looked at me very funny and said, "he was my son." I thought I would fall off my chair. I had NEVER met his family. I didn't know much about his background at all. It was just one of those High School things and here it was some over 20 years later I meet this woman in orange county at a metaphysical ordination when I live in Riverside county.

I was so shocked I couldn't believe it. I asked her if she would mind telling me how he died. She said the enemy had thrown a grenade into the midst of his platoon and he jumped on it to save everyone else. This sounded like George but I started to cry. I barely knew him really. It was one of those admire from afar and hello once in awhile. The HS alumni still talk about him. I can't think of this as a coincidence because to figure it out mathematically would be astronomical. She said she had moved out of town because people were always asking about him. It wasn't to this area but the other direction. She asked if I had known his brother. I only knew his name. She said she ended up pursuing many things and came to spiritualism because it gave her the faith that he lived on. It was one of those moments that cannot be explained to someone else who hasn't experienced something beyond coincidence. The logistics of it all made it more than that. I had never even seen this woman before at this church. So this is the difference. When things like this happen over and over and you have experiences of your own beyond this as well...would you think it was your imagination? I can trance and channel but I have chosen not to do this for personal non religious reasons.

Thank you for a concise accounting AzureD,

I have only one bit of insioght. You state.

"He went off on a mentalist who is well known in Los Angeles and basically called him a fake."

A Fake? The definition of a Mentalist is a person who uses mental manipulation to entertain, they claim no supernatural influences. To say that one is Fake, is a common slander of mediums to those who use menatlism without pretense.

Well, that is a very hard question to explain things about.

It just mainly depends on if a person has an open mind to the speaker. If they don't believe in their beliefs or think their lying about their experiences, there will be others who will.

Me, I have a very open mind, but usually know when being lied to and somewhat get sore about it.

Eh, but anyways. There is what I think.

Perhaps it takes personnal experiences to create beliefs?
As far as requiring proof of one's belief, it would then no longer be a belief, but rather a fact.

Didn't Aracon already post this? Entitled the same?
It explains each persons indifferences to the very issue in question here.

Experiences are not always recordable...lol.

That is hillarious. How many of you walk around with a 360 degree camera strapped to your backs and always taping. That isn't possible.

Experience means it happened TO YOU ONCE. It may never happen again. It may not happen to anyone else period. It happened to YOU...once. Now, it could happen repetitively forever, or to other select few, but that doesn't always apply to most situations.

Jenna Karro