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DJJarak
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05:12:29 Apr 28 2009
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Nearly every culture believes that there once lived powerful beings which were worshiped as gods. Some could control the elements, some were the avatars of human virtues, and others were simply immortal. Do you believe beings such as this could've actually existed? If so, whatever happened to them?




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Artume
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06:09:25 Apr 28 2009
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Those beings that were claimed as "gods", were just ordinary individuals that accomplished improbable feats. Folklore distorts the images for better visualization and appearance. In the future, are we to call Voltaire, George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Sacrates, Constantine, Jules Verne etc. "gods" becuase folklore may distort their images to better suite their children? Only time will tell.

Basically, in any king making ceremony as introduced by the Sumerian rulers, the kings were to be positioned as "gods" for better respect from their followers. Plain and simple.



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Cadamia
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14:28:18 Apr 28 2009
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My aren't we religious this week. Yes I do, they are still around but I think the gods we refer to as false gods were in all actuality demons and their worship just died out. I base this belief on the fact that we form our belief systems on our experiences. The Judeo-Christian faith tell us there is only one God.

If one thinks they have seen yet another god then it calls into question the validity of the documents that the Judeo-Christian hold dear and then goes along way to changing peoples beliefs.



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Bloodmother
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16:28:30 Apr 28 2009
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Here's a link to a thread which touches on this question:

How do you make a God?



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cadrewolf
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16:42:26 Apr 28 2009
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Wow, touchy subject.....

In the days of old when knowledge was not known of certain aspects in life, they thought the gods had a hand in such things. And their were quit a few of them, for hunting, fertility, seasons, night and day.

Many figures were infact so powerful they themselves thought they were gods.



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Daeva
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17:23:57 Apr 28 2009
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This is the only concrete example I can give and I honestly agree that these were most likely real people of old. This shows the transformation of one, a goddess into a new belief system and what happened. I also know that El and YHVH are not the same being. YHVH was a god of war and why there is a difference and disagreement in view because most of the angels written about were in allegiance to El. Micha-el, Gabri-el, etc. Moving on, lol. I write all the time so have a lot of references. This is just fyi and not my views but that of scholars and why I feel they were just people who got immortalized.

* * *

In the Ancient Near East the Goddess Astarte was worshipped by the Hebrews. Her oldest temple at Byblos dates back to the Neolithic and she flourished in the Bronze Age where she was also known as Demeter in Greece and Ishtar in Babylonia. King Solomon worshipped Astarte when the Israelites had not yet fully committed to monotheism with the Yahweh cult (1 Kings 11:5). During the Bronze Age some Israelites perceived her as the female consort to Yahweh. Her symbol was the dove and coinage portrayed Astarte as the heavenly dove of Wisdom (Walker, 1983, p. 253-54). At the height of her powers there were many gods and goddesses one of which was Yahweh; the Psalmist refers to a "Divine Council" of these gods which Yahweh addresses:

God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment: "How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Selah. Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked." They have neither knowledge nor understanding, they walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken. I say, "You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you; nevertheless, you shall die like men, and fall like any prince" (Psalms 82:1-7).

Yahweh is upset with his fellow gods and accuses them of not looking after the needs of the weak and destitute. If they do not help, Yahweh predicts that they will be overthrown--a prediction which unfolds within the Hebrew Scriptures as the gods (to include Astarte) are eventually cast off for a monotheism under Yahweh. The Egyptians and Syrians reenacted the ancient sacred drama of the rebirth of the sun through the virgin Astarte on December 25--at the winter solstice when the sun is at the lowest point in the sky and so requires a "rebirth" to begin its northward journey again. This drama will find its way into the early Christian mystery as the Virgin Mary. The newborn savior-god Jesus who is born on the winter solstice will behave similarly to Astarte's newborn and become a sacrifice for the benefit and immortality of the Goddess's followers. Christian iconography will preserve her in her dove form with "seven rays emanating from the dove of the Holy Ghost: an image that went back to some of the most primitive manifestations of the Goddess (Walker, 1983, p. 253). 3

Different versions of Astarte’s name appear nine times in the Hebrew Bible most often Ashtereth. As previously stated, Solomon is said to have worshipped the goddess Astarte while Josiah was said to have destroyed her shrines. “She was a lunar goddess and was adopted by the Egyptians as a daughter of Ra or Ptah.”1

Hebrew scholars now feel that the goddess Ashtoreth mentioned so often in the Bible is a deliberate compilation of the Greek name Astarte and the Hebrew word boshet, shame, indicating the Hebrew contempt for her cult. Ashtaroth, the plural form of the goddess¹s name in Hebrew, became a general term denoting goddesses and paganism.16

Yet in later years the name Ashteroth evolved to mean a male, Christian demon, which was to discredit the goddess Astarte. This demon was depicted as an angel riding a dragon and holding a viper in his left hand. Astarte is often represented with horns on her head.

* * *

Therefore some like Astarte are very old and I really believe she was most likely an anciet Queen that was eventually worshipped even after she died, but as cultures evolve and intermix the beliefs change to fit the times and needs of the society.



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TumorNamedMarla
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23:35:02 Apr 28 2009
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I don't think he was referring to GOD...the bible version.I think he meant GODS as in Zeus,Hera,Apollo, etc.



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Kglitterous
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No prophet in written history has taught polytheism... Even Ra is monotheistic. Yet it is as popular a belief as the popes infalibility. This makes me think that at some point in history that it was not discouraged, or that at some point in prehistory it was even taught. Likely this was helpful to preadamic cycle men to understand that there were powers greater than they were. It was likely told as a parable (like fire to the Zarathustrans) and man corrupted the parables and mmade them litteral.

No, I don't think there are other gods in our reality. All the names of gods are regional variations of varying aspects of the one God, or of prehistoric prophets that have been deified .



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TormentedOne
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17:51:03 Jul 28 2009
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i believe that this happened. i believe that the gods thought that man would start to get outta and didn't want to be on the planet. i also think that the gods coulda got a lil arrogant and decided to go up to heaven instead of staying down here with us.



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S0RVENA
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18:03:44 Jul 28 2009
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I believe humanity were very quick to label something a God or Goddess based on something that made them seem more inhumane. People in this age, are known to be smarter, quicker, stronger.....and these people would be interpreted as a God back then, but not so much now. With our growing technology some believe this will one day kill off the God complex as time progresses into proving how something came to be. Perhaps it is simple evolution, dna enhancements, mutation, etc. Where are they now? Who knows. If reincarnation is a fact, they could be anywhere, and anyone.



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Bloodmother
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18:53:36 Jul 28 2009
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Exactly the premise of "American Gods" by Neil Gaiman. See my link above.

When God was a woman, the great goddess allowed for other permutations of her powers and personalities, reflecting the human experience of nature.

Kind of like setting up an alternate profile on VR.

She was very clear on this - the other representations were just that.

When the power center changed to a male god, things got more competitive and centralized. No upstarts were allowed. Single vision, straight line, monovision only.

Still, life and death or more complex, and old beliefs persist.

As long as they do, then they're real. Our brains can't distinguish a belief from "what is" all that easily. As clinton said, it all depends on what is is.



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TormentedOne
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19:11:17 Jul 28 2009
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ain't that true bloodmother.



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10241024
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19:31:44 Jul 28 2009
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Soulshroude has a good point, many gods were probably humans that folklore turned into gods. Also, I think some gods were created to help explain what was unexplainable at the time such as crop failures, floods, earthquakes, lightning, the weather, the seasons, death, life, the stars, the sun and the moon.

You know it is interesting, when you look at even monotheistic gods, they have still have a host of powerful beings surrounding them, even if they aren't gods in their own right.



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Bloodmother
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00:40:54 Jul 29 2009
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The Toltec, a pre-Colombian culture, stated that we are a dream of God. We can also be his nightmare and what distinguishes the good dream from the nightmare is our presence in this world. In a way, fulfilling our personal legend brings us closer to the good dream of God.



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Seti
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01:35:36 Jul 30 2009
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I have a section in my journal on Egyptian gods if anyone is interested in looking who they worshiped.



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hottubmolly
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18:36:44 Jul 30 2009
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I'm still pretty certain we made god and not the other way around.



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dabbler
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22:17:12 Jul 30 2009
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I suggest the link bloodmother leaves. "How To make a God"



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Cloudx9
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22:30:31 Aug 04 2009
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I believe that "Gods" of any kind exist. I believe in the Native American way of life. Basically it's respecting the world around you whether it's nature or your fellow man.



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DarkRedemption
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06:43:15 Aug 05 2009
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All gods are man made.They were created to explain things that primitive man could not explain by reason.



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idbeholda
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08:56:34 Aug 05 2009
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And because Gods are man-made, they are just as fallible as the beings they were believed to have created.



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SatanKimi17
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13:59:05 Aug 05 2009
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I think they were real they just were more like jesus and they were like prophets and they eventually died.



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IlLuminaria
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19:12:13 Aug 05 2009
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To the main subject and inquiry,- I can conclude so; yes they existed to an extent and in a case not so popular but corrosive in assertion.
Although it may not be the case you are implying, for that you must broad more on what you speak of; Egyptian denominations? Abrahamic rootings? Tribalist? Greco-Romanian Denominations? "Atlantean enlightenment"or resolution of what might be seamed as God?



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IlLuminaria
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19:23:50 Aug 05 2009
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Akkadians & Sumerian might hold some light on something more antique than itself, perhaps tainted as any other- yet viable of completion in puzzles. And by that I mean is "evidenced" as the first nation that documented stories and organized sects, so here-says may go far long and this influence tainted or not had a impression in the first dated text, so it all works in chains as today adoptions/adaptions of old sakes, the confusion is the key element denominator which gets out, which stays in the influence.



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hisdarkestdream
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19:52:56 Aug 05 2009
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I wonder everyday if this is true. If they really existed. Going back to the christian bible for a second. In it, it says that God created Adam and Eve. My question is, who created God? Some people say he just existed. But how do we know for a fact? We don't.

I believe that something exists. I just don't know what higher power it is and I don't know when. It's very confusing.


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Artume
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05:53:02 Aug 06 2009
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The Arcadians and Sumerians were followers of the Atlantian ways. As the Atlantians were their ancestors. The "God(s)" as I had stated previously were humans turned gods by their activities before they passed on.

Unless the individual dwelves into the celelstial (intergalactic) state of mind and proclaim those who came from above (space) were the original "God(s)" to begin with.



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IlLuminaria
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06:11:36 Aug 06 2009
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Well if another being of say : supreme enlightenment who came here to bare life and to design the foundation of our existence, what would you name such thing? even if it is a equal to us in regards of physical characteristics and corporal similarities, still your creator.



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Artume
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06:49:13 Aug 06 2009
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Well, I wouldnt call them "God(s)" or anything lame like that. I am not that feeble minded. But I would welcome them with grace and kindness.

If they did claim to be human kinds creator, then I would ask them to present proof of their claim. I am sure that as old as they seeem, they would have records of our DNA within their system(s).

I would call them my ancestor(s) if anything, but I would NOT worship them in any way, shape or form. Thats just ignorant.



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MaximusPain
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16:01:24 Aug 06 2009
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Personally I don't believe in any type of gods...............They are only made up figures to enhance a persons storytelling.



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gaulder
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18:10:43 Aug 06 2009
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Yes i do think they are VERY real. What happend to them? They have turned there backs to us bc man for the most part has turned there backs to them & has forgoten them



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UpirLikhyj
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16:59:47 Aug 11 2009
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As the earliest mention of "Atlantis" occurs in one of Plato's Dialogues ("Timeaus"), written no earlier than ca. 360 BCE, about an island and a civilization thereon he claimed existed over 9,000 years before his time, as he was also not an historian nor did he subscribe nor attempt to support his mention of "Atlantis" by any actual historical evidences, and finally... as a philosopher and a teacher well versed in "Socratic Dialogue" in which the use of allegory (fictional tales containing moralistic or philosophic lessons to teach) was commonplace, all evidences strongly point to "Atlantis" as having been of Plato's sole creation used as an allegorical device.

Regardless, and with all respect to SoulShroud, there is no credible evidence at all that the Sumerians were descended from such fantastically fabled "Atlanteans." In fact, evidences currently suggest that the original Sumerians might have been descended from the Indus Valley civilization and traveled west to the Mesopotamian area from there.

Mention of "Nibiru" as a planet with a 3,600 year orbit whose inhabitants were the original Sumerian "Anunnaki" as well as the theory that "Atlanteans" were the ancestors of the Sumerians are all the theories of one man: Zecharia Sitchin. And I, for one, had to learn the hard way that this man is extremely inept at correctly translating the Sumerian language. This I learned after making somewhat of an ass of myself corresponding with lead members of the University of Pennsylvania's "Sumerian Dictionary Project" in which I learned that one of Sitchin's most basic theories regarding the meaning of the term "Anunnaki" as "Those Who from Heaven to Earth Came" was completely wrong. The term "Anunnaki" means "Sons of the (Heavenly) Prince." Quite a bit different, huh?!

What is interesting, however, is how close the term "Sons of the (Heavenly) Prince" is to the later Semitic term for these same celestial visitors as recorded in the Old Testament (Torah) in Genesis 6:4 in which they are called the "Bene Ha Elohim," which means... "Sons of God".

Kinda makes ya go... hmmm!

And, of course, this leads back to the discussion at hand. Who are the "Gods"?

As it would appear the entire concept of "Gods" might have well begun with the most ancient accounts found worldwide of a small group of celestial visitors, usually male, arriving from the skies and teaching Humankind, mating with the females thereof, and thus founding Earth's greatest beginning civilizations, it only makes more important, perhaps, the question of who these original visitors were.

Add to this the fact that these same celestial visitors were vilified as "Fallen Angels" and, later, as "Vampires," too, makes the question of who they truly were even more intriguing, especially to all of us here at VR... at least so I would think.


- Upir'




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UpirLikhyj
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21:41:49 Aug 11 2009
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By the by... it might interest a few out there to additionally consider the following similarities in how these fabled ancient celestial visitors were called by various cultures:

Canaan: "Bene Ha Elohim" (Sons of God: Gen. 6:2)
Sumer: "Anunnaki" (Sons of the [Heavenly] Prince)
Egypt: "Shemsu Hor" (Family/Sons/Companions of
Horus*)

* - "Horus" was both a God and a Prince (the son of Osiris and Isis)

And then came the historical "Jesus," also reputed to have been the offspring of both a God and a Human female... and also called (so we are told) a/the "son of God."

Of course, as in Jewish scripture not a single mention is made anywhere in the Old Testament (Torah) of the "Messiah" prophecied to be the "son of God" but, instead and contradictory of any such, to be the son (direct blood descendant of) King David, the appellation of Jesus in Jewish circles as a "Son of God" would have marked Jesus as a Pagan. Either that, or it would have been to declare himself a descendant of the only other declared "Sons of God" found in the Bible (as found in Genesis 6:2 and Job 38:7) that specifically referenced the very "Angels" who descended from the Heavens and mated with Human females. In other words, for Jesus to proclaim himself a "Son of God" would have been to directly indict himself as and link himself directly to... the "Fallen Angels." And perhaps, just perhaps, this was exactly what he intended and exactly who he really was: a son of a "Son of God."

- Upir'



, only a patriarchal blood descendant (in other words "son") of King David



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AlexandraAshes
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22:00:03 Aug 11 2009
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The concepts which I personally find problematic concerning "The Gods" is their nature, and the fact that humans seem to have a great deal of difficulty viewing the world outside an anthropocentrical view.

Do we really like to believe that the (hypothetical) Gods are as petty as we, who squabble, bicker and manipulate?

I wonder if those that subscribe to such beliefs require a passionate scapegoat for their actions, decisions.
To place personal responsibility upon deities that make sense to our temperament and logic.
To lighten the load upon ones own conscience?

Regarding the exaltation of mortals to God status, I think it is highly possible.
Another behavioural trait observable to this very day, the idolisation of chosen humans.



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maxximus765
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23:57:45 Aug 11 2009
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i believe in a higher power but no specific gods... for example... science could be the higher power... ponder on that



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PHXnightshade
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01:40:52 Aug 12 2009
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Everyone's path is different one persons god is anothers devil. Everyone has valid points and opinions, I study religion, I feel if i'm told or taught to hate such and such religion might as well not be ignorant. Mostly what we here today is the monotheistic faiths (Christians, Judiasim, Muslim), but even those "polytheistic" faiths that now fall under pagan (or devil- worship as most would call it) actually by their followers is considered monotheistic in the fact that though there many gods they follow the path of one or two specific gods. It all really depends on the person and the sect of whatever numerous faiths they believe in, even satanist have sects that fall into 3 categories and none of them are remotely the same.



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IlLuminaria
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01:46:41 Aug 12 2009
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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
-Epicurus



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TormentedOne
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01:53:15 Aug 12 2009
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That is a very true sayng Illumnaria.



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PHXnightshade
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02:16:34 Aug 12 2009
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very good point. I might have an idea why Cause in human folly we look for someone or something to make greater than we are to strive to be like the now "god" and its all in vain is kinda of masochistic



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LINOGE
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02:17:04 Aug 12 2009
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just cuz you cant see it does not mean its not there after being around forever there probably at rest but not dead and gone



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TormentedOne
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02:20:44 Aug 12 2009
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I belive a god but just it also doesn't mean it isn't there either. This my be conttradicting but it is what it is.



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PHXnightshade
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02:24:23 Aug 12 2009
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that almost sounds like the theory behind the Chululu gods of old who rest beyond our reach and sight till the stars are right for their return.


But also thats why we have faith and belief cause we can't PHYSICALLY see our deities of choice. And with faith and belief comes the ones who believe that jesus has them on speed dial or Satan told them to kill their grandparents. Thats what "resting" gods give us faith and belief and we still have nut jobs in EVERY religion.



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LINOGE
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02:39:35 Aug 12 2009
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without faith you have nothing



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PHXnightshade
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02:44:21 Aug 12 2009
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thats very true with out Faith you got nothing but literally with faith you get EVERYTHING. both god and bad spurs from faith. Faith can make a drug addict turn clean, can give a battered women the strength to live on, Faith gives children hope for a better future, for any faith believers are given a promise of paradise a glorious afterlife.... Faith also starts wars, has women and children slaughtered, people strapping bombs to themselves. Faith does a lot of good for a lot of people but it does just as much evil.



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Kashka
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03:05:44 Aug 12 2009
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A lot of good points have been brought out so far in this thread.

As for my personal views on God, the Omnipotent, the Almighty or whatever name have you, I can only base my core beliefs on what I truly feel in my heart. I cannot image life without an after life. There just has to be something more, I believe. We cannot jsut simply cease to exist.

Think about science for a moment. You clap your hands, and create a sound. That sound never really disappears or stops existing. If the sound is about 30 db, it would reduce it's self to 10 db, quickly, and then to 1 db, perhaps, and then on to .00001 db, and on to 1 x 10-10 db. Since there is no limit to how many zeros you can put after a decimal point, the sound continues to reduce itself infinitely.

This is my view on life. Once we come into existence... we cannot just cease to exist. I firmly believe our soul is immortal.

I am also inclined to believe that there is some force, greater than ourselves, and whether that being is just a force of nature (like Karma) or a soul that is holier or more powerful than us, is still up for debate with me. This high power, would be central to our afterlife, it would play a major role, in my opinion.

I guess we'll see when we die, which religion is right, or which principals are true.

I for one, am anxious. =P



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TheBitch
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03:12:40 Aug 12 2009
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You PHXnightshade have a very good point. But isn't the value of the good worth the threat of the bad? I guess that could be seriously debated and...to each his own.
As for the original topic...I think it is just personal interpretation. Whether you think there used to be several gods or whether there was just one god, or whether you think no such thing ever existed...it is what ever you chose to believe and you have the burden of deciding what is fact and fiction depending on whatever influences your decision.

Personally I believe in God (yes I am a christian), but as to whether there were ever more than one...i don't ponder it. There will never be any hard facts laid in front of me so...I don't know. And I have decided it is not in my liberty to make an uneducated decision.
*this might sound like a load of crap but whatever, to each his own*



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PHXnightshade
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03:32:40 Aug 12 2009
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To each there own is a good standing point you can't step on peoples toes that way.

Maybe everyone has a paradise waiting no matter their faith? What if no one path is right? Heck if we want to delve into the Chululu faith (which i do NOT follow) Us humans live on a sleeping goddess who has dreamed up these deities to bring us some form of comfort and they get to answer peoples prayers when another god decides they can. Why does one path have to be right? If 30 people decide to go up a mountain not one is going to go up the same. one may take a truck, one may travel on foot, one may be prepared one may rough it . Why make it so absolute that only ONE way is the RIGHT way?



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UpirLikhyj
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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" -Epicurus


Hmmm... this works but only if one views "God" as little more than a Cosmic "Santa Claus" and Life little more than a perpetual Christmas morning in which we get whatever we ask. However... if Life is, instead, more intended as a school of learning, then this quote falls on its face, as demonstrated thusly:

Is the college Professor willing to prevent "F"s, but not able? Then he is not truly in charge of his class and cirriculae. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. If he is both able and willing, then whence cometh "F"s? Is he neither able or willing? Then why call him Professor?"


- Upir'


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IlLuminaria
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04:49:55 Aug 12 2009
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I only brought it seamingly on the presentation of "God/Goddess"- orientated philosophy of life within an individual theological base, not others frontiers in philosophies un-adherent to the subject inquired, all in all- you are correct.



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Artume
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06:34:43 Aug 12 2009
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Thankyou for the enlightening evaluation as always ~Upir~, but I hardly read sitchen's works. As well, I only threw the Sumerian's and Nibiruan's out there just for more speculative discussion.

I love the levels this thread has taken, very mature. I actually have no negative thoughts regarding stupid posts since none have been added. Thanks for that.

Not to go to off topic here, but in my research ~Upir's~ statement: "And then came the historical "Jesus," also reputed to have been the offspring of both a God and a Human female... and also called (so we are told) a/the "son of God." " caught me a bit off guard since the "then came" statement would regard in a scenerio of "which came first."

In my research, Mithra was the first to come into play several hundred years prior to the character known as Jesus and thus would answer the speculative theory of human born of a god and female. As being mithra was rumoured to be born by a "medusa" named myrrha in a cave in the town of Bethlehem. I wont go into other details, just wanted to mention this small fictitious fact.

The reason why I brought this up in the first place is the literal confusion between these two characters, since they are both usually confused for the other.

Now back to our discussion...



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AsphaltTears
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06:40:05 Aug 12 2009
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They were not talking about the Greek and Roman gods. There were many gods worshipped. I think many fall back too much on the Judeo/Christian theme as being the only correct ideas and that comes to the religious end and belief. Many have been called gods in cultures and some clearly were mortal beings. Folklore is oral and handed down in that way. Generally it is later written and becomes myth. Just like anything else if it is kept in an oral tradition for long it can change as it is passed down and culture's values and customs change or are conquered by another group. The idea of who or what God is will be different by culture and time period. The only reason it is called Judeo/Christian is because the Christians took writings from the Jews to make the Old Testament which isn't exactly from one book. The first five are the Laws...can it be fallible yes and why? The Council of Nicea and other groups. Some of the gods/goddesses had many faces and are but one in all actuality and on occasion broken up in aspects but cumulatively one person. Look at the Romans, their Caesars were all called gods but they were merely men. Some of this is so old that scholars may or may not be able to figure it all out but they will like they always do come up with theories which people will take and run with as the truth.

As far as Yahweh and others of the time he was a god of war that was adopted and worshipped because of a need to fight off those raiding the area. El was abandoned but still worhipped by the Caananites and Yahweh had them massacred because of it. For a long time they kept household gods anyway even when they switched from many gods just to the one.

I do believe people who were revered became gods to people after centuries and those who went out of favor including existing gods became demons.

As for the Old Testament: (excerpted from various parts of wikipedia)

Note: Judaism uses the term Tanakh to refer to its canon of the Masoretic Text. In academic circles, the more neutral term Hebrew Bible is commonly used to refer to the Tanakh or Old Testament.

In Christianity, the Old Testament refers to the books that form the first of the two-part Christian Biblical canon. These works correspond to the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh), with some variations and additions. In the Eastern Orthodox Church the comparable texts are known as the Septuagint, from the original Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures. In the Syriac Orthodox church, they are known as the Peshitta. The term "Old Testament" itself is credited to Melito of Sardis. Tertullian also used the Latin vetus testamentum. The Old Testament in the Protestant, Roman Catholic, and Greek Orthodox Bibles have 39 books in common.

Scholars believe much of the Old Testament was written in Mesopotamia. It is believed the Old Testament was composed and compiled between the 12th and the 2nd century BC. Jesus and his disciples referenced it when discussing Jesus's newer teachings, referring to it as "the law of Moses, the prophets, and the psalms ... the scriptures". (Luke 24:44–45) The accounts of Jesus and his disciples are recorded in the New Testament.

The Tanakh (Hebrew: תַּנַ"ךְ‎, pronounced [taˈnax] or [təˈnax]; also Tenakh or Tenak) is a name for the Bible used in Rabbinic Judaism, also known as the Masoretic Text. The name "Tanakh" is a Hebrew acronym formed from the initial Hebrew letters of the Masoretic Text's three traditional subdivisions: The Torah ("Teaching", also known as the Five Books of Moses), Nevi'im ("Prophets") and Ketuvim ("Writings") - hence TaNaKh. The elements of the Tanakh are incorporated in various forms in Christian Bibles, in which, with some variations, it is called the "Old Testament".

According to the Talmud, much of the contents of the Tanakh were compiled by the "Men of the Great Assembly" by 450 BCE, and have since remained unchanged. Modern scholars are less certain, but some believe that the process of canonization of the Tanakh became finalized between 200 BCE and 200 CE, see Development of the Jewish canon for details.



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Artume
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06:47:24 Aug 12 2009
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~SteelIndigo~ states: "I think many fall back too much on the Judeo/Christian theme as being the only correct ideas and that comes to the religious end and belief."

I respond: Of course they would deliver answers relating to the Judeo/Christian aspect since this theme has been implanted on the brain since day one. I would call it the theory of get this "relativity." The theory of relating one idea and virtually outcasting the rest since they do not make sense to the individual who was brought up through an individual belief system.

This would be a wide spread phenomena throughout society. Thus is why this discussion could be taking place.



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UpirLikhyj
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As always, SoulShroude's posts are intelligent, on point and enlightening. And his mention of Mithra as predating Jesus by centuries is absolutely correct. Yet while some of Mithra's characteristics might have influenced Romanized (i.e., Pauline) Christianity, yet the parallels between the two have been greatly exaggerated by many... including Joseph Campbell and, perhaps most recently, Bill Mahrer's delightful film documentary "Religulous."

However Mithra, being Indo-Iranian in origin, was not reputed to have been born in Bethlehem nor anywhere else in Canaan. Though Mithra is reputed to have many parallels with the Jesus story, including such events as virgin birth, born in a cave or grotto, had 12 disciples, was crucified and resurrected on the third day, etc., yet few if any of these bear academic scrutiny. As specific to Mithra's birth, it is clear that he was not born of a woman at all, much less the result of a mating between a virgin and a celestial father ("God" or otherwise), but was instead emerged from solid rock as an adult man:

"This theory is in contradiction to the traditional understanding of Mithras' birth. In Mithraic Studies it stated that Mithras was born as an adult from solid rock, 'wearing his Phrygian cap, issues forth from the rocky mass. As yet only his bare torso is visible. In each hand he raises aloft a lighted torch and, as an unusual detail, red flames shoot out all around him from the petra genetrix.'[31]"

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_Mysteries#Other_similarities_with_Christianity

Thus while the debate will forever rage regarding how much, if any, of the Jesus' birth story is in any way historically accurate, yet it was most certainly not lifted from Mithraic religion and remains one of extremely few such stories in Jewish religious lore of a child born of a celestial visitor and a "daughter of man." Noteworthy to this is the fact that no where else in the Bible is such a story given... except to report the similar alleged occurrences of celestial males descending and, likewise, mating with "daughters of men" and siring thereby children.

As relevant to this topic, in particular, it is most noteworthy to this discussion to point out the fact that so many of the stories of gods and mortals (though not common to Judaism, at all) involve extremely similar tales of Gods (and very rarely, Goddesses) descending and mating with mortals.


- Upir'



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UpirLikhyj
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Great post by SteelIndigo!

Few realize that the "Talmud" and/or "Torah," the foundational books in the "Old Testament" (to use the Christian vernacular), were not written until during and, mostly, after the last Babylonian Exile period, which was in the 5th Century BCE. This was when Judaism as we know it today really began. Prior to this, despite what the "Old Testament" states and as verified by current archaeological evidence, many gods and goddesses were worshipped by the Israelites. Only during the Post-Exilic period did Israel truly become a mono-theistic religion so as to better nationalize the religion, isolate and dedicate itself to reforming and regaining its religious and cultural identity following the destruction and humiliation experienced by the Babylonian conquest.

And, understandably, there is indeed a pre-eminence here given to the Judeo-Christian religions owing to the predominance of such religions here in the West. It would, indeed, be fascinating to hear from others whose cultures and religions are far different from these. It would be fascinating to enjoy the differences and, perhaps, parallels and similarities between Judeo-Christian beliefs and those of all other cultures as re: Gods/Goddesses.


- Upir'



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unknownbeauty
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02:39:43 Aug 13 2009
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I believe they are at a diff realm, looking, waiting for their time to come out and play. Which everyone is feeling will not be very long at all.



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S0RVENA
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04:28:39 Aug 13 2009
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Call me crazy but i feel the more people believe in something that's going to happen, might actually make it happen.
I think the Gods were just beings that were part of what Upir was talking about. They decended to the Earth, possibly taught mankind many things, mated, and whatnot and those beings were considered the Gods. These are just stories afterall but that doesn't make them less true either.



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CruelHatred
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05:58:03 Aug 13 2009
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It is a long debated topic.
There are so many ways to look at this subject.
For me, in the bible it speaks of the Nephilim a superior race of giants, believed to be fallen angels.

"There were giants in the earth in those days...and when the sons of god came in unto the daughters of men, and they bear children, the same became mighty men, which were of old, men of renown." Genesis chapter 6, verse 4

The sons of the Nephilim born of regular women were men of renown.



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IlLuminaria
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06:35:49 Aug 13 2009
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I believe certain individuals within this discussion have shared a certain amount of insightful theories/posts to the misconception throughout time about the presented subject of "God/s" and "Goddess" alike. While is how they connote it, some of it is not "authentic" in my fair view, some things are pure theories from the readings of others "archaeological findings" and " interpretations" of sacred text and stories, which some are flawed in reliability, but as in whole, they are right in the conclusion, I must also add; not everything in the "archaeological" approach has validity, you must discern between what is put in play with what are reality based topics, this Sumerian studies go way before Sumer itself, yet it has been discarded throughout all times as mythological creeds of that certain groups of civilization including the Gods in Sumerian denominations, which it had shed light about technology far before you even imagine, many of it is the reason, "we" had the boom of scientific and technological knowledge-advancement in the 20th century; and the reason we now acquire results of knowledge in less period of time than perhaps centuries ago, just because it was such a motivation to achieve the factive and evidenced source to this -clay tablets- left by them many many thousands of years (more like a challenge to the scientist).

As for the "God/s" yes they were misinterpreted, and some of them live among you and look like you and you wouldn't even notice it, they were like you and I, and they were just read as "higher beings" simply because the extent of knowledge they had about technologic mechanics,- that were limited in understanding and could only describe in things as nature let them see them. They are beings that did procreate with their own design, that had hybrids, that teach about astronomy, agriculture, ethics, construction, etc..- some were giants, some were in fact watchers, as guards, the omnipresence is exactly that, they are here watching, the omnipotent is exactly that, they have manipulated the course, thus you have paths to choose, they have abilities you can achieve in "time"(and other things to be described), they are higher in conscience, they are not evil, they are not far, and is all well kept by your governments and certain private groups annexed to assure your safety and human civilization safety, in regards of "our" not so advanced levels of conscience and "our" ways to resolve a difference in regards of arrogance reactionary, and what keep "us" from growing in emotional levels, buddhism can broad this more to an extent and some of jesus teachings as well. Some of this you don't have to take it as anything factible, you have your interpretations of life and, Im not here to impress anything or debate anything in regards of the validation of my "assumptions" as it may seem to you, this might sound like everything you knew was all a false, but is a false your world government have kept well preserved including to even scientist that support many of their theories very arrogantly about physics, evolution, biology, archaeology, chemist, psychology and even astronomy.

This is a certain portion of "authentic" realization in a extent in my knowledge, I believe is interesting to share; https://www.youtube.com/watchv=2mHe211mLV0&feature=related



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Artume
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06:46:04 Aug 13 2009
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Could you possibly post a valid link, it does not seem to work.



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IlLuminaria
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06:53:24 Aug 13 2009
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I apologize for this, I have trouble with embedding codes in this source. This is a lecture-conference, I found it to have some clues of the puzzles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mHe211mLV0&feature=related



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UpirLikhyj
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07:14:44 Aug 13 2009
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I agree with CruelHatred's assessment re: those called the "Nefilim." They were great men and their children were, indeed, the fabled "mighty men of old; men of renown."

One important caveat I would like to point out: the word "Giants" does not actually appear in the original Book of Genesis. What happened was that when the King James Bible was translated into English, the translators chose to change Genesis 6:4 by removing the actual word, "Nephilim" and replacing it with the word "giants." They chose the word "giants" because they didn't know what "Nephilim" meant... so they simply mistranslated it as "giants."

Now... how the rumor got started later on in the Old Testament of these descendants as giants (which was what caused the King James translators over 1,600 years later to use the false term "giants") is a fascinating study of how an admitted and deliberate lie told to Moses (as recounted in Numbers 13:33) that later resulted in the deaths of those who had lied, was ironically and inexplicably regarded ever since as... accurate.


The point being that they were not giants at all. As CruelHatred also opines, The "Nephilim" were indeed the "Gods" of greatest antiquity and their "renowned" children were this planet's first "demi-god" kings, pharoahs and emperors.


- Upir'



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Artume
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07:17:25 Aug 13 2009
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Makes one wonder exactly how tall the Egyptian Pharoahs actually were, as depicted in the movie: 300.



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Artume
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07:17:47 Aug 13 2009
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Or was that Persian?



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HardBiter
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07:44:43 Aug 13 2009
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You know every culture needs something to believe in whether be a God, a Prophet, or a Spiritual Being of some kind. Now me myself I'm not Religious or anything like that. I just follow the science.

Don't get me wrong things happen for a reason be it Karma, Fate, or Divine Intervention. Take how ever you want.



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IlLuminaria
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Tiamat,- in Sumerian and Akkadian denomination bare different definitions of this certain Goddess, It is described as deity because it was adopted as that by pre-Sumerian sources, it was portrayed as the primordial chaos because in the event of creation of a planet is the imagery the creation take place, "they" ( the Sumeriann) never first handedly experience mysticism of any of this Gods, it is all here-says of retell stories based on the creation of how it came to be life in earth. The Tiamat is usually interpreted as a Goddess who personifies the sea , in my realization "she" (or however directed) was the one, who bore life to earth by the collision with the early earth by a much bigger celestial body, which broke the planet in half releasing fair amount of debree from both bodies to create the new earth, and the moon is retell'd that it was brought or created from this event (within the studies is still unclear which one, since some sources retell that the moon is older than earth by around 1 billion years and others still say it was created few million years when the new earth came to be), with this new elements to make the new earth, the abyss were filled with waters that bore life forms similar to the other celestial body, "Nibiru" theorem, which somehow -Soulshroude- expanded in another thread.

"Apsu (or Abzu, from Sumerian ab = water, zu = far) fathered upon Tiamat the Elder deities Lahmu and Lahamu (the "muddy"), a title given to the gatekeepers at the Enki Abzu temple in Eridu. Lahmu and Lahamu, in turn, were the parents of the axis or pivot of the heavens (Anshar, from an = heaven, shar = axle or pivot) and the earth (Kishar); Anshar and Kishar were considered to meet on the horizon, becoming thereby, the parents of Anu and Ki.
Tiamat was the "shining" personification of salt water who roared and smote in the chaos of original creation. She and Apsu filled the cosmic abyss with the primeval waters. She is "Ummu-Hubur who formed all things".
In the myth recorded on cuneiform tablets, the deity Enki (later Ea) believed correctly that Apsu, upset with the chaos they created, was planning to murder the younger deities; and so slew him. This angered Kingu, their son, who reported the event to Tiamat, whereupon she fashioned monsters to battle the deities in order to avenge Apsu's death. These were her own offspring: giant sea serpents, storm demons, fish-men, scorpion-men and many others.
Tiamat possessed the Tablets of Destiny and in the primordial battle she gave them to Kingu, the god she had chosen as her lover and the leader of her host. The deities gathered in terror, but Anu, (replaced later, first by Enlil and, in the late version that has survived after the First Dynasty of Babylon, by Marduk, the son of Ea), first extracting a promise that he would be revered as "king of the gods", overcame her, armed with the arrows of the winds, a net, a club, and an invincible spear.

And the lord stood upon Tiamat's hinder parts,
And with his merciless club he smashed her skull.
He cut through the channels of her blood,
And he made the North wind bear it away into secret places.
Slicing Tiamat in half, he made from her ribs the vault of heaven and earth. Her weeping eyes became the source of the Tigris and the Euphrates. With the approval of the elder deities, he took from Kingu the Tablets of Destiny, installing himself as the head of the Babylonian pantheon. Kingu was captured and later was slain: his red blood mixed with the red clay of the Earth would make the body of humankind, created to act as the servant of the younger Igigi deities.
The principal theme of the epic is the justified elevation of Marduk to command over all the deities. "It has long been realized that the Marduk epic, for all its local coloring and probable elaboration by the Babylonian theologians, reflects in substance older Sumerian material," E. A. Speiser remarked in 1942 adding "The exact Sumerian prototype, however, has not turned up so far." Without corroboration in surviving texts, this surmise that the Babylonian version of the story is based upon a modified version of an older epic, in which Enlil, not Marduk, was the god who slew Tiamat, is more recently dismissed as "distinctly improbable", in fact, Marduk has no precise Sumerian prototype",

So if in fact you somehow triggered a light in your acquisition of knowledge, you might know or get to think we have beings upon other beings in the universe. Makes "us" much more fragile beings of another scale of things, if you get to the degree of realization, designers of designers in conclusion, for all you know this could in fact be myths of an 'higher beings' given to us long ago, makes me smile.





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imavampyreprincess
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10:31:02 Aug 13 2009
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I would think that if I were a fallen angel with a special gift, I would set myself up as a god.
Since 12 legions of angels were kicked out of heaven with Lucifer, that left approximately 60,000 angels jobless and in need of entertainment.



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IlLuminaria
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This fallen angels were misinterpretation of what it was written in Sumerian text, which was itself interpretation of Sumer understanding of what was given in acknowledgement. This 12 angels weren't anything related to a evil entity (Lucifer) in my understanding; this were Demigods as teachers of the abundant civilizations and the genesis of the new civilizations of the time.

The Anunnaki used their detailed sky charts to group the stars into constellations, and then honored their leaders by naming the constellations after them. Thus, the Sumerian god EA, ("Whose Home is Water") was honored by the zodiacal signs of Aquarius and Pisces, and the "priests who oversaw his worship" were dressed as Fishmen.

Enlil, the strong-headed one( as depicted as Lucifer in your interpretation,The god of the air (from Lil = Air) and storms (Pan-Mesopotamian) at the E'kur temple - Nippur. He was usually portrayed in human form but also appears as a snake to the humans eyes), was honored by the sign of Taurus. Ninmah was Virgo. The warrior Ninurta was Sagittarius. Over time, ~Sitchin~ (A vastly discredited archaeologist even evident in this thread) explains, as second and third generation Anunnaki 'gods' joined the scene on Earth,

"all the twelve zodiacal constellations were assigned to Anunnaki counterparts."
He argues, "not men, but the gods, devised the zodiac."

According to Sayce:
"In historical Babylonia the gods were in the form of man. Man was created in the image of God because the gods themselves were men. But the conception cannot be traced back further than the age when the Sumerians and Semites came into contact with one another. In pre-Semitic Sumer there are no anthropomorphic gods. We hear, instead, of the zi or 'spirit', a word properly signifying 'life' which manifested itself in the power of motion. All things that moved were possessed of life, and there was accordingly a 'life' or 'spirit' of the water as well as of man or beast. .... Sumerian theology, in fact, was still on the level of animism... Vestiges of the old animism can still be detected even in the later cult : by the side of the human gods an Assyrian prayer invokes the mountains, the rivers and the winds, and from time to time we come across a worship of deified towns. It was the town itself that was divine, not the deity to whom its chief temple was dedicated. So, again, the god or goddess continued to be symbolized by some sacred animal or object whose figure appears upon seals and boundary-stones..."

"With the advent of the Semite all is changed. The gods have become men and women with intensified powers and the gift of immortality, but in all other respects they live and act like the men and women of this nether world. ... The Semitic god of Babylon was 'lord of gods' and men, of heaven and earth; Assur of Assyria was 'king of the gods' and lord of 'the heavenly hosts'."
"It was natural that, corresponding with this lord of the heavenly hosts, there should be a lord of the hosts of earth, and that as the divine king was clothed in the attributes of man, the human king should take upon him the divine nature. Like the Pharaohs of Egypt or the emperors of Rome, the early kings of Semitic Babylonia were deified. And the deification took place during their life-time, in fact, so far as we can judge, upon their accession to the throne. In the eyes of their subjects they were incarnate deities, and in their inscriptions they give themselves the title of god."

Their exodus in power were to be made when the civilizations became independent for themselves in every level, so they will no longer teach but,- watch the development in time.
"According to said mythology, the gods originally created humans as servants for themselves but freed them when they became too much to handle."



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UndoneByBeauty
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17:26:35 Aug 13 2009
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There were a whole bunch of responses to my "Man or Myth" forum post, about this exact same topic. If you want to read what others who haven't responded to this thread said, you could read it there. Its still floating around in General Discussion.



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PHXnightshade
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18:48:25 Aug 13 2009
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why does Lucifer (known as Enki ~ BEELZEBUB would be displeased to have his name misrepresented which is Enlil)
Have to always be portrayed as evil? In my faith we are taught he is good. In the Diabolicon it tells the story oF Lucifer and his angels. According to the text it says Lucifer was not created solely of Jehovah Lucifer had another creator as well. Lucifer was upset at the robotic lifestyle of the angels and reached with in himself and found the light of free will giving him the name the bringer of light. In a struggle with Michael the archangel Lucifer shared his light with the host of heaven and 1/3 answered now having awakened the light of free will as well. The archangel called only messiah who was beloved of Jehovah commanded Micheal to destroy them all, so the great seraphim war ensued. But since angels and now demons are immortal they can't die so Lucifer and the 1/3 left and traveled to the place that would never know Jehovah and called it Hell. Then Lucifer had to watch as his gift of freewill that he had given to humans were turned into sin and the host of heaven slaughter his good, to where his Lucifer's human followers had to meet him in the disguise of night. The church would kill these patrons if they were caught, and indeed in the history books thousands of men women and children were slaughtered in the name of practicing witchcraft and selling there soul to the unholy devil.



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voodooman
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22:53:05 Aug 13 2009
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i believe in gods that control all elements of the universe they just exist in other plains



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Artume
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01:23:59 Aug 14 2009
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~PHXnightshade~ asks

I respond:

For a suggestive answer to your question, please read the following:

Note: This article is speculative in nature and may or may not be correct

Lucifer was a planet as well as a super being. This planet was located between our present Mars and Jupiter(where now lies the inner asteroid belt). The planet Lucifer is known by many other names: Maldek, Phaeton, Rex, etc., but is most aptly named after the super archangel who ruled over it -Lucifer. Lucifer was a perfect and beautiful being and his planet was one of ten in the solar system of that time. The planet Lucifer rivaled the Sun in splendor and may in fact have been a second sun or binary. The Luciferians living on it were a godly people until their leader fell from grace and brought them to ruin along with a third of the entire solar system.

Lucifer was of course thwarted and defeated in his attempt to become the ruler of our solar system, who was then Michael or the Sun, and his home planet was destroyed or flung into the far reaches of the solar system. Planet Lucifer may have exploded into billions or trillions of pieces creating at least three rings or asteroid belts. The most famous is of course that between Mars and Jupiter, but there is a smaller one around the Sun, and of course a larger one beyond Neptune now known as the Kuiper belt. The Oort cloud may be the final ring of accumulated debris. It was this explosion and the resulting debris that cratered the planets and moons and produced their rings, disrupted the planetary orbits and rotations, and gave birth to the meteors and comets.

Astrologically, Lucifer was of the combined nature of Virgo, Libra, and Scorpio, which according to esoteric tradition, were then one sign(and one planet). Virgo was Lucifer's purity and dedication. Libra was Lucifer's perfect beauty and wisdom, and Scorpio was Lucifer's dark or extreme side. These three qualities made Lucifer too powerful or gifted for his own good and led to his conceit, rebellion, and downfall. Before Lucifer's unruly power got out of hand, he was supernaturally cut down and changed forever. His essence was literally divided into three separate parts so that he was greatly weakened and no longer posed a threat. Lucifer became the new signs of Virgo, Libra, and Scorpio, increasing the zodiac from ten to twelve signs. There were now also twelve major planets instead of ten.

The large planet Lucifer had many moons or small planets some of which may very well have survived its destruction and which were were blasted to the ends of our solar system("cast into outer darkness"). The largest of these may be the current dwarf planets or plutoids two of which are Pluto, Eris. Vulcan? may be the third, and all three represent separate aspects of Lucifer. These remnants of Lucifer straddle the Kuiper belt and beyond exercising great power over the collective aspect of being and preserve the history of a turbulent past.

In the book, Outer Space People and Inner Earth People, the author, William Lester Blessing, states that Lucifer was in fact our own planet Earth, in its previous incarnation. The Earth was then as large or larger than our Sun making ours a BINARY solar system. It was populated by LUCIFERIANS and named after its leader LUCIFER. Around the planet Lucifer revolved many planets and moons includiing Lilith(named after Lucifer's wife) which are now scattered across the solar system after it was destroyed or went nova. The people on Lucifer must have been giants and lived to a least a thousand years old. Was the creation story of Genesis in the Christian bible a description of the rebirth, reconstuction, or partial restoration of a former and greater Earth?

Click here for more information.



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MysticalJade
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01:42:48 Aug 14 2009
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I do believe that these beings existed at one time or another. I also feel that they were human once, just like you and me. The reason they are held in such high regard is because of the values they were known for, and when they passed away they ascended to some plays where their spirits still were left behind either by what they taught to their followers or even objects that were still here, because objects carry a person's energies.



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SheWolf85
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08:46:08 Aug 27 2009
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I strongly believe in the Elements.. and I feel that the Gods and Goddesses are representations of these elements.. and maybe, just maybe exaggerated by all the mere mortals before us..
faith, Hope, Love.. that's all we need.. and religion should be the basis of these 3 things we so need in our lives..
Love... that's mine... And to all the Gods and Goddesses who represent this aspect of life, I love you.. *smilez*


Lotsa lurve.



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Valik
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08:59:42 Aug 27 2009
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I bieleve in element gods but i also bieleve in odin and thor also and valhala



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UpirLikhyj
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16:49:47 Aug 27 2009
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As the specific subject of who and what "Lucifer" is has been brought up a few times in this forum topic recently, and given the widespread misunderstanding of what this term actually means (yeah... kinda like that surrounding "vampires," too), I thought it might be beneficial to clear the air on this subject.

The term "Lucifer" is mentioned only once in the Bible, and first only in the Latin Vulgate translation (later used in translating our English "King James Version"), at that. While this term did refer to the planet Venus as the "Morning Star" and also while this term was used as a metaphor to reference an actual person, yet the person was not "Satan," nor a "fallen angel," nor anyone of supernatural origin.

As can be found in numerous places online, as well, here is perhaps the best explanation I have been able to find on the subject:


Lucifer makes his appearance in the fourteenth chapter of the Old Testament book of Isaiah, at the twelfth verse, and nowhere else: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript, written before there was a Roman language? To find the answer, I consulted a scholar at the library of the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati. What Hebrew name, I asked, was Satan given in this chapter of Isaiah, which describes the angel who fell to become the ruler of hell?

The answer was a surprise. In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference. The Hebrew scholar could only speculate that some early Christian scribes, writing in the Latin tongue used by the Church, had decided for themselves that they wanted the story to be about a fallen angel, a creature not even mentioned in the original Hebrew text, and to whom they gave the name "Lucifer." ...

The scholars authorized by ... King James I to translate the Bible into current English did not use the original Hebrew texts, but used versions translated ... largely by St. Jerome in the fourth century. Jerome had mistranslated the Hebraic metaphor, "Day star, son of the Dawn," as "Lucifer," and over the centuries a metamorphosis took place. Lucifer the morning star became a disobedient angel, cast out of heaven to rule eternally in hell. Theologians, writers, and poets interwove the myth with the doctrine of the Fall, and in Christian tradition Lucifer is now the same as Satan, the Devil, and --- ironically --- the Prince of Darkness.


(John J. Robinson, A Pilgrim's Path, pp. 47-48)


- Upir'



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nobodysfallenangel
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23:30:27 Aug 27 2009
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In my beliefs there is a Goddess, and a God. Goddess Diana and Dianus as her masculine partnering. I follow the religious aspects of Stregheria.

We believe that the Source of All Things(The Great Spirit) is both masculine and feminine in nature.

~We believe that humans bear the Divine Spark of their Creator within themselves(soul/spirit). And that we are actually spiritualBeings who are temporarily encased in physical matter.

~We believe in Reincarnation and view it as a process for Spiritual Liberation from the physical dimension.

~We believe in psychic abilities and the supernatural as normal conditions which have been suppressed by the Judaic/Christian Culture, but can be restored through the practice of the Old Ways.

~We believe in Magic as a manifestation of energy that is directed by the mind through various ancient techniques.

~We believe in Spiritual Worlds and Spiritual Beings.

~We believe in the Law of Action and Reaction, and that what we do affects others, and what others do affects us. Therefore we strive to live in peace with those around us.

~We believe in Karma, meaning that we believe in responsibility and consequences.

~We believe in love, life and harmony as the spiritual foundation of our ways.

~We believe in the expression of religious beliefs through rituals and festivals.

~We believe in Earth Energy, meaning that we acknowledge places of natural power existing upon our planet. We hold that the same is true for natural objects.

~We believe in a positive Afterlife and a successful Spiritual Evolution.

~We believe that everything in Nature is of equal importance. Everything is linked and entwined beyond seperation.



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thegothprincess
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23:50:43 Aug 27 2009
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their is a theory that poeple of old in certain cultures have found bones of prehistoric animals and thought these were the bones of god that walked the earth.

I belive that their were creatures of great power who were here to help us weather of female or male persuation they did extrordinary things .



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