.
VR
Can A Reality Come From False Concepts
General Discussion
•  General Discussion Home  •   Forums Home  •



Erinyes
Erinyes
Royal Sire (206)
Posts: 2,040
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Vampire Rave member for 19 years.
05:06:51 Oct 29 2010
Read 1,723 times

If say for instance Jesus Christ never existed and was a false being but with all of the works/writings and beliefs and practices do you think it's possible that through time of the ages that He could of been created spiritually if He did not ever exist physically?

What I am trying to say is do you think that believers could create such an existing spiritual being based on false or made up teachings?

If so or if not, how do you think such a non existant being could be created by a person?




•  REPLY  •


XxImmortalAngelxX
XxImmortalAngelxX

No Longer Registered
05:30:31 Oct 29 2010
Read 1,720 times

That is very close to the term called "conjuring".

The mind is capable of doing a lot of things by using one's energies and Will to bring it forth to reality. Such as people who work with their energies to heal someone instantly of a physical issue.

Now if we take an impression and worked as a unit FOR a certain goal, it is very possible that because we are using our energies for a single purpose with more oomph behind it, why couldn't we conjure up said person on a spiritual level?

It really depends on how open-minded people are to such possibilities.

I'm sure there are many cults that have teachings on how to conjure up said entities by name but does that mean they are really THEM, or just some spirit lingering portraying them?

This is a great question to ask ;)



•  REPLY  •


phantomsgrief
phantomsgrief
Incendiary (86)
Posts: 92
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Member of Wolves of Odin (Coven)
Vampire Rave member for 15 years.
14:01:31 Oct 29 2010
Read 1,711 times

i guess it depends on how strong a mind can be and how much a person might or might not need that other reality. some need it to make it through the day others need it to keep body and mind together. i do know that sometimes when a person passes away they do not always cross over. the reason i say this is because we use to live in a house where a child had died.. she fell out of her bedroom window and it was a two story house. we had rented the place and dad said he had seen her and my little cousin use to play with her. so i am sure if anything is possable that this just might be



•  REPLY  •


Oceanne
Oceanne
Noble Sire (160)
Posts: 4,490
Honor: 11
[ Give / Take ]
Vampire Rave member for 18 years.
15:14:03 Oct 29 2010
Read 1,708 times

I look at it this way..Jesus christ would be the embodiment of a side in us of mercy and all that he stands for.While Satan would be the same ,only in all he stands for.Energies to be sure,and very possibly already out there is one form or another,but as to manifest them into a man-like being? Doubtful. So, in that light,it wouldnt really be considered a "false" concept,meerly different in name only.



•  REPLY  •


dabbler
dabbler
Venerable Sire (130)
Posts: 11,418
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Vampire Rave member for 18 years.
15:22:41 Oct 29 2010
Read 1,706 times

Apalonissis was doing the same things Jesus was said to be doing, but was not said to be son of a deity.

Apalonissis was a Fariker, and. Farikers were Trained in Egyptian Magic Craft, as in using illusions to mystify, and astonish people. The rope to the sky was a Fariker standard trick.



•  REPLY  •


tigerzplay
tigerzplay
Sire (107)
Posts: 2,228
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Vampire Rave member for 18 years.
18:10:31 Oct 29 2010
Read 1,699 times

The only thing I want to contribute on this subject is simple because I have such strong personal views.

How to word this so as not to offend anyone and still get my point across.

Its only right if you believe it to be right. Magic only works if you believe in it. Miracles only come around if you believe in them or a chance of them happening. Because to believe is to open yourself up to the possibility.



•  REPLY  •


FateUnseen
FateUnseen
Shaitan (64)
Posts: 562
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Member of Wolves of Odin (Coven)
Vampire Rave member for 16 years.
19:52:47 Oct 29 2010
Read 1,694 times

I think people create their own realities everyday. And even when they are aware that they are the one who made the reality they cannot help but believe in it, otherwise their world would come crashing down.



•  REPLY  •


MasterPhoenix
MasterPhoenix
Disciple (53)
Posts: 6
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
House Eternal is a member of an Alliance

Member of House Eternal
Vampire Rave member for 15 years.
21:07:00 Oct 29 2010
Read 1,688 times

There is an extremely simple way to explain this. Anything can have power if you believe it does. Whether jesus christ existed or not is absolutely not the issue. What is the issue here is that he most certainly does have alot of power spiritually because so many have given him that power. In other words, if enough people started worshipping a matchbook, we would have a lord of matches on our hands and people lighting matches during worship to show their allegiance. If something is purported to exist, someone gave it power by believing in it, then told someone else of their belief (or killed them because they didn't agree).



•  REPLY  •


Erinyes
Erinyes
Royal Sire (206)
Posts: 2,040
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Vampire Rave member for 19 years.
21:48:35 Oct 29 2010
Read 1,684 times

very good so what it comes down to is the believers faith but such a faith in a non factual concept do you think it's the prayers,rituals etc that give faith to such a thing or do you think it's just blind faith in that they believe without any research of their faith



•  REPLY  •


FateUnseen
FateUnseen
Shaitan (64)
Posts: 562
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Member of Wolves of Odin (Coven)
Vampire Rave member for 16 years.
22:37:18 Oct 29 2010
Read 1,680 times

i think the majority of people don't research their faith



•  REPLY  •


XxImmortalAngelxX
XxImmortalAngelxX

No Longer Registered
23:23:19 Oct 29 2010
Read 1,677 times

Well i know that's completely not the case for me. I believe in my own personal experiences and it didn't have anything to do with my faith.



•  REPLY  •


MasterPhoenix
MasterPhoenix
Disciple (53)
Posts: 6
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
House Eternal is a member of an Alliance

Member of House Eternal
Vampire Rave member for 15 years.
00:36:08 Oct 30 2010
Read 1,673 times

I don't think it necessarily has anything to do with someone performing rituals, or any other religious ceremony. Simply believing that something exists gives it power. Once enough people know that something is purported to exist, it has a great deal of power over those who know it exists - and this power is many times subconscious in nature.

On the subject of ritual - if there is a large group of people praying, meditating, or generally focusing their energies on one specific thing, the level of energy generated is very powerful. If humanity could learn the value of focused energy, honing and directing it in a specific fashion, much could be accomplished.

On the subject of faith, this is where things get interesting. Personally, I have to be able to feel the energy I am working with - I have a hard time believing in a source of energy (god) that I cannot see. Faith is simply thinking that god exists and knowing inside that it will assist you in your existence daily.

I believe in the forces of the natural universe, the great web of energy to which all things are connected. The energies of the earth and the elements are real, tangible concepts that can be felt and worked with. Everything in the universe operates in a thesis and antithesis manner - in other words everything has an opposite on a scale based on the principles of hermetics. Hermetics teaches us that cold and hot are one in the same, only in different varying degrees from one another (At what point does something stop being cold and start being hot?) This conceptual scale works for all things opposite (good and evil, hot and cold, slow and fast, etc.)

Throughout human history, many people have created the realities of generations to come from false concepts. If one thinks about it, many religious concepts were created in that fashion. Do we know for sure that what is depicted in religious scriptures actually happened? Where in the religious scriptures does it talk about the dinosaurs and every other species that has come and gone throughout earth's history? The bottom line here is our culture in its entirety is completely based on stories and ways of life that have been passed down through the centuries to one capacity or another by our ancestors. Every time a story is told, it changes according to who is telling it. Each of us needs to find our own story in our lives - whatever makes sense to our soul is what makes sense, and it doesn't matter what others think. There are simply certain things about certain religious faiths that blatantly distort the truth for their own benefit and for the purpose of controlling the masses - Mine doesn't and never has, in fact those who practiced my faith were killed by the christian church during the inquisition because they refused to convert to christianity. I know enough about christianity to know that the christian god does not condone the murder of those who do not follow him. Period.



•  REPLY  •


MizGunny
MizGunny
Transgressor (54)
Posts: 17
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Member of Legion (Coven)
Vampire Rave member for 15 years.
02:12:16 Oct 30 2010
Read 1,666 times

As Umberto Eco said, “If God had not created man, man would have created God.”



•  REPLY  •


Erinyes
Erinyes
Royal Sire (206)
Posts: 2,040
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Vampire Rave member for 19 years.
03:05:57 Oct 30 2010
Read 1,661 times

ok but that has nothing really to do with topic as this is not about creation but about creating a faith through a false pretense and how it's done



•  REPLY  •


MasterPhoenix
MasterPhoenix
Disciple (53)
Posts: 6
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
House Eternal is a member of an Alliance

Member of House Eternal
Vampire Rave member for 15 years.
03:51:15 Oct 30 2010
Read 1,656 times

If you want to know how it's done, ask the billions that have been duped by the christian church - because its all based on control (which is another way of saying false concept). When a person is controlled by another person, their reality is based on whatever concepts are put in front of them. What I am trying to say is if the christian church decided to start making its parishioners dress in frog suits for mass each week, their reality would be based on false concepts if the church told the parishioners it was god's will to do so. So the ultimate answer to all these examples is:

YES. A reality can absolutely come from false concepts - through the power of suggestion.



•  REPLY  •


Vampgon477
Vampgon477

No Longer Registered
05:56:38 Oct 30 2010
Read 1,649 times

they say..''IF you believe in somthing so much,it can actuall become real,but only to your sences alone.''
Now,
think about that one.
IF anyone believes in somthing...from anything,like a story or movie..or even a dream.. i can become very real to them.
BUT,CAN a being be created on beliefe alone?!
that is a good question.
no one can really answer that.
I seen this movies once...about a being that only survives on beliefe alone.I no one believed in her..she then dies from no beliefe..thus becomming a myth and story.
A story always starts from somthing.
In time it gets twisted untill people start yapping about it to the point that so MANY people talk about it,well then it must be real.
If an explosion happens on another planet,
and kills all life,but we are not there to see it.
does it still exsist?Cause we dont know about it or seen it,did it even happen at all?
Yes.
it did..and it does,BUT to ONLY to thoes aliens that got
distroyed or seen it.
do you know what im saying?!
i hope so,cause sometimes i confuse myself.LOL



•  REPLY  •


dabbler
dabbler
Venerable Sire (130)
Posts: 11,418
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Vampire Rave member for 18 years.
16:47:04 Oct 31 2010
Read 1,634 times

I find that many fail to find a reasonable context for belief, and faith, such people are often Zealots, and Fanatics.

It is not enough for them to "keep it among the flock" but they crusade. Thus imposing their accepted "reality" on others.

Such people are offended even by a non-believer, or person of a differing faith or Philosophy reasoning why they opt not to subscribe, they take everything as an affront to their "reality".

I often wonder why the desperation (aside from proselytizing) to reach out with their faith, and convince others that it is more then just the Faith, because it is faith :Belief Without Evidence, yet every day you get more people testifying to extraordinary, and farther reaching experiences.. and the pitch is more and more transparent..

so no matter how many times they tell it.. it is most likely not an angel that flew past their window, but a cars head light..

It is not a demon that attacked them in their sleep, it is Sleep paralysis, because claiming to be attacked is often followed with testimony on how they were saved by being a believer..

However the pious are dangerous, when they start formulating ways to fulfill dangerous events dictated by their faiths Text.






•  REPLY  •


Apocapus
Apocapus
Carnal Creature (56)
Posts: 100
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Chateau Orleans (Coven) is a member of an Alliance

Member of Chateau Orleans (Coven)
Vampire Rave member for 19 years.
17:05:56 Oct 31 2010
Read 1,632 times


Actually,

I believe that's how the universe itself was created.
...Well this universe at least.

The big bang happened, when a higher being from another universe used it's imagination and the idea was so grand that our universe was born out of it.

Similarly that being's universe was created in a similar way...and so forth and so on.

In a eternal cycle so old that it's impossible to trace who started it.



•  REPLY  •


Erinyes
Erinyes
Royal Sire (206)
Posts: 2,040
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Vampire Rave member for 19 years.
23:02:37 Oct 31 2010
Read 1,624 times

@ Apocapus,sorry but this topic once again is not about creation but on how one has developed faith through a standard of a possibility of a false pretense per say such as why and how did you come to believe or disbelieve in a faith was it because of the pack syndrome or on your very own account do to an experience or what not



•  REPLY  •


Firmament
Firmament

No Longer Registered
04:52:22 Nov 01 2010
Read 1,618 times

A reality has come from false from false concepts, and is continuing doing so as humans evolve into the reasonable stage of disposing the way they interact with each other the way they do in order to obtain that in which they see as "truth", Reality has being changed long ago Jesus being or not a incarnate or subject with such abilities or not. There is the perceptual reality and the physical one, both interact to achieve that in which is held as current flow of information or mechanization of that time reality related to space and influences. Since we are bombarded individually with many influences by many characters and events pre-determinably by "nature or coincidence"( which ever you find most convincing), the stream of reality becomes more narrow and individualized so the idea of using a mystical or a figure to hold as in regard for "abilities and exclusivity to divinities" in order to grasp all individualized parts into a whole, in a sense to create a social way to merge groups with differing factions or cultural background, as time progresses it all becomes less compartmentalized and becomes more unified into a singular "divination or ritual of the masses". In a sense that are steps of an evolving race, from the primitive and desired based nomadic groups to the civilized and unified terms of power driven by a single aspiration, this aspiration could be religious or purely rational, since rational is what propels innovations the rational tends to be the one that ultimately develops fully capacitated civilization. So in other words what Im trying to say, things are more complex than it seams, even thought this figure you call "Jesus" never existed it became an integral part in the evolution of men up to this date. Weather or not some of the content of his representation in "sacred text" brought the dark ages and "slowed our evolution regarding the previous argument" Its irrational working with present time-framed reality, there could've happened millions of things that would've happened if Christianity wasn't around to create an dark age and the whole chain of events that also brought the unfortunate divisions up to this date in regards of theistic spirituality and rationalism. False concepts can lead to a shift in reality just as much as a truth can, there are multiple realities in which we are predeterminally "willing" or able to have influence in the present one with the limitations of falsehood being a integral part in the present interaction of it.



•  REPLY  •


LordWolf
LordWolf
Charmer (84)
Posts: 1,328
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
House Eternal is a member of an Alliance

Member of House Eternal
Vampire Rave member for 17 years.
08:16:45 Nov 03 2010
Read 1,600 times

here is one from history:
once upon a time there was a second american revolution. a part of the nation wanted to break away and become a separate nation. this new nation supported the idea of black slavery (as did the u.s. at the time), and even included slave owners of black african descent; but included in its constitution a law prohibiting the importation of new slaves. high officials in the govt were jewish. among the generals were irishmen (at a time when the irish were considered a minority race unto themselves), american indians, and americans of mexian descent. in the army of this country, over 87000 black men of african descent served in the military forces, and from day one received the same pay as any other man of their rank. ( the north didnt allow black men to serve in the military till the middle of the war- 1863- and at first only paid black privates 10 dollars a month when whites got 12... a significant difference at the time.
this fact and easy to document. they were doing the same thing that the 13 colonies had done about 90 years before.

but today there is a new reality based on a false concept: the concept is that the war was entirely based on slavery (a very small minority of southerners owned slaves), that the south was a completely white bread place, and if you werent christian and protestant, you were shut out and probably persecuted for your beliefs.
the north was all about freedom, and the war was fought to free the slaves.

this is one example of how a new "reality" can spring from partial truths and false concepts. you can see examples around you all the time if you are well read and have a bit of common sense.
~W~



•  REPLY  •


dabbler
dabbler
Venerable Sire (130)
Posts: 11,418
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Vampire Rave member for 18 years.
15:37:36 Nov 04 2010
Read 1,580 times

There will never be a Jolly Fat Man that has elves who build toys that get delivered by a magic sl;eigh.



•  REPLY  •


Theban
Theban
Great Sire (115)
Posts: 470
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
The House of Umbrae Octo is a member of an Alliance

Member of The House of Umbrae Octo
Vampire Rave member for 20 years.
15:52:41 Nov 04 2010
Read 1,577 times

Yes there is Dabbler Father Christmas is real dam it and how dare you say otherwise!!

I remember I would curl up into a ball so that Father Christmas would leave me more presents because as I got older they became less and less.

So I thought if he thought I was younger I would get more....it never worked!

To get back to the topic

What about the placebo effect. That is a reality from a false concept of sorts



•  REPLY  •


dabbler
dabbler
Venerable Sire (130)
Posts: 11,418
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Vampire Rave member for 18 years.
16:19:02 Nov 04 2010
Read 1,574 times

Intresting mentioning the Placebo effect.

People tend to think themselves sick, so the cure is causing them to think themselves medicated to get better..



•  REPLY  •


Theban
Theban
Great Sire (115)
Posts: 470
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
The House of Umbrae Octo is a member of an Alliance

Member of The House of Umbrae Octo
Vampire Rave member for 20 years.
16:41:56 Nov 04 2010
Read 1,571 times

Not just people thinking themselves sick Dabs, then you already know all this I am sure.

In recent decades reports have confirmed the efficacy of various sham treatments in nearly all areas of medicine. Placebos have helped alleviate pain, depression, anxiety, Parkinson’s disease, inflammatory disorders and even cancer.

Placebo effects can arise not only from a conscious belief in a drug but also from subconscious associations between recovery and the experience of being treated—from the pinch of a shot to a doctor’s white coat. Such subliminal conditioning can control bodily processes of which we are unaware, such as immune responses and the release of hormones.

Researchers have decoded some of the biology of placebo responses, demonstrating that they stem from active processes in the brain.

From (Scientific American)



•  REPLY  •


22:42:17 Nov 04 2010
Read 1,562 times

Faith. You don't need anything to be real to have faith. You can believe in whatever you choose.... anything off the wall and make believe....and make that your faith... but keep in mind, people who do these things are often thought of as crazy... Madmen... psychos... to have a reality or a faith that is not of the natural...

heh... says a lot about religion in general, I see... Large groups of crazies, we are. But it makes us happy. If a man has nothing else... let him have faith.



•  REPLY  •


Firmament
Firmament

No Longer Registered
04:19:17 Nov 05 2010
Read 1,554 times

The question is, If what is conceived as truth or fact a line of reality or the experience is purely perceptual. In other words is reality well defined or each perceive the personal vs the collective. For instance, Dabbler example is not far from validating in this context, Santa Clause is not a living fact but that of perceptual construct, it does exist and is accepted as reality on n age by external influences, there is a fair amount of years when that idea was a reality, and widely expected one for the youth, The story is undeniably real and truthful for the level of awareness shared for that program persona, while in the other side, the mature side- the idea holds a purpose with a ritual far different of that of the kid but still "real" enough to become a ritual for the children living it. There is no living elf making gifts on the north pole in the concurrent reality we are living, but there is a living reality for those experiencing the deception. Same happens with war interests and coverage, religious and scientific works subject of scrutiny and further analysis. In the present perception of reality, "we" believe we came from monkeys evolving in the lapses of time or a all intelligent designer created all that is. Truth to be told one or both will pass as false concept once understanding of our origin has being mapped, nonetheless the present is being forged by the friction of one or both influencing our perception of life and reality itself.



•  REPLY  •


dabbler
dabbler
Venerable Sire (130)
Posts: 11,418
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Vampire Rave member for 18 years.
14:38:59 Nov 05 2010
Read 1,548 times

GoC, I can see faith for what it is, sadly the Pious clash with anyone who personally opts to not subscribe to a faith.



•  REPLY  •


ThothLestat
ThothLestat
Great Sire (119)
Posts: 1,307
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Vampire Rave member for 18 years.
18:33:31 Nov 05 2010
Read 1,541 times

Can 'reality' even be known or perceived? We only get the merest glimpses of it with our rather narrow range of senses.



•  REPLY  •


20:53:36 Nov 05 2010
Read 1,535 times

reality is a perception.... it's what YOU find to be real.



•  REPLY  •


Erinyes
Erinyes
Royal Sire (206)
Posts: 2,040
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Vampire Rave member for 19 years.
08:53:42 Nov 10 2010
Read 1,519 times

i have come to the belief that concepts give light to particular beliefs

and ones own mindset gives fire for creation of a belief or practice

what may be not tangible to one can certainly be tangible to another

i think sometimes we all see that light that gives us such insights on things and who can say one persons faith aint genuine while saying anothers faith is

we all have a common reality of living and dying and the things we do in-between that can vary from one to another.



•  REPLY  •


Angelus
Angelus
Premiere Sire (129)
Posts: 1,988
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Vampire Rave member for 21 years.
13:19:59 Nov 10 2010
Read 1,515 times

.. all very interesting, but: how do you know the Nazerene was who the Bible said he was.. 'coz a chosen group of four said so, a hundred years after he was supposed to live.

.. myself, I believe there was a preacher called jesus, who died in India. But, there is evidence of such.

There is no real evidence that 'the Jesus' as written of, was who they say, yet does it matter?

What gave credance to the teachings was the belief of the followers, thereby giving it form.



•  REPLY  •


ContessaIsabella
ContessaIsabella

No Longer Registered
14:15:03 Nov 10 2010
Read 1,512 times

Absolutely, the belief and following minds of others;
Schroedingers Cat experiment shows how a human observing "matter" affects its position and thus what happens next. Its a fact.
If my observing a cat can influence matter on a quantum level and thus determine the life or death of that creature.Then a thought or look can change the future.The butterfly affect shows how that Cat, if it had lived;Would have run out in front of Irans great leading causing a terrible crash and thus preventing world war3.
Now with thousands of people all praying ad thinking and looking who knows how many quantum shifts there are.
They might even manifest something, matter behaves very strangely on the quantum level and does NOT obey normal Newtonian laws so much to the disgust of the Nay sayers. To Conjour and alter matter is technically possible, it's all in the mind.



•  REPLY  •


TheMonsterYouAdore
TheMonsterYouAdore
Vexer (13)
Posts: 48
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Vampire Rave member for 19 years.
03:39:29 Nov 11 2010
Read 1,503 times

If you want to see a good example of falsehoods turning into reality:
Read an american history bood from preWWI, then read one used in schools today.



•  REPLY  •


AsphaltTears
AsphaltTears
Elemental (77)
Posts: 422
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Member of Legion (Coven)
Vampire Rave member for 16 years.
09:02:07 Nov 11 2010
Read 1,495 times

Spiritualists believe that if enough people believe in something it can manifest as a thought form. There are different names magickally when this is a premeditated type of thing. This is why Jesus warned people to be careful about their thoughts. Some of the writings (codexes) were written 150 years after the fact so I would guess that it could change by century too and a new reality be created or more than one. I quite frankly think this accounts for a lot of the scary things some people have experienced based on false thoughts of what things exist. So many believe in it that it takes on a life of its own. Obviously this could be many things based on the differences in belief. This is all supposition though.



•  REPLY  •


Erinyes
Erinyes
Royal Sire (206)
Posts: 2,040
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Vampire Rave member for 19 years.
12:45:45 Nov 11 2010
Read 1,492 times

well i really don't know who the nazerene was who people called jesus,i can only suspect that people will keep to their faith and belief system on that

i seen a documentary that spoke of jesus and other gods/demigods being aliens that visited,now to me i think its plausablle heh



•  REPLY  •


savedbygrace
savedbygrace

No Longer Registered
19:43:37 Nov 11 2010
Read 1,485 times

ok i know that many of you do not wish to hear what i have to say being the nature of where i stand in my faith and my choice to believe in what i do.

To give and answer to the stated question above there is some truth to whether or not we can create our own realities of deities and beings of power. Look at the Greeks and there many Gods that they whole heartedly believed in them. To them they were real. We can also look at the Egyptians and the Norse as well, and to include the (as we call them) the Native Americans they had there structure of Gods and deities. So in a sense we can believe in it, put faith in it, and lead other people to believe it is real. Dose that really make it real though. Not necessarily its in the Eye of the beholder so to say on that one.

But yet to add in this what with out proof can be real. In other words can some thing be real if you can disprove its reality.

To cover one other subject faith is the evidence of things not seen in other words what this means is that Faith is the proof that some exists when there is no physical evidence of its existance. Faith is not some thing that you can shake or cause to stumble( as a figure of speech)

Now I will not say to condemn you that only what i believe is real and only what i follow is the only way. Even though that is fully how I feel I have personal experiences that daily prove me that What i believe in is real. All I can do is share these experiences and it is up you to believe them or chose to find a reason other then what I have to say regarding them.



•  REPLY  •


UpirLikhyj
UpirLikhyj

No Longer Registered
17:12:08 Nov 12 2010
Read 1,476 times

A reality, any reality, based on false concepts and evidences... is false, regardless how much one might believe and subscribe to it.

Those of the "Heaven's Gate" cult who committed mass suicide several years ago believing that their spirits were going to be transported somehow up to a giant "mothership" spacecraft hiding behind a comet that was in the sky at the time did not make that false concept an actual reality despite their willingness to kill themselves for it. (Apparently, not one of these geniuses had the brains to ask themselves what a disembodied spirit could possibly need with a "mothership" spacecraft, whose very purpose is to sustain physical corporeal life during space travel.)

Yes... without a doubt there are many faith-based and otherwise false "realities" promoted by self-serving individuals and organizations both religious and political that are so inculcated into our culture as to be largely indistinguishable from actual reality. As always, it is up to us to investigate and research and ultimately decide what is and what is not real.

Unfortunately, as pointed out by others here, far too many are far too content to just go along to get along, to become and remain distracted and complacent with life and society as is, and blindly choose to enjoy the "bliss" of ignorance rather than seek and determine for themselves what truly is and is not Real.

This, in my opinion, is the real definition and tragedy of a life unfulfilled and unlived: to never truly question and then seek out what is Real... at all costs.


- Upir'



•  REPLY  •


dabbler
dabbler
Venerable Sire (130)
Posts: 11,418
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Vampire Rave member for 18 years.
17:26:59 Nov 12 2010
Read 1,472 times

"This, in my opinion, is the real definition and tragedy of a life unfulfilled and unlived: to never truly question and then seek out what is Real... at all cost. "

That Upir, Is Prose



•  REPLY  •


CryingMist
CryingMist
Royal Sire (212)
Posts: 2,049
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Vampire Rave member for 20 years.
19:24:10 Nov 12 2010
Read 1,460 times

In order to create a being from simple writing from the imagination of humans, it would take more then just a few books here and there, but lets say for the purpose of the exercise we take as if;

So a bunch of guys write a story, make it believable, make sure to get several witnesses as if all was legit, they spread the word around, discuss in public to get notice and increase the spreading. And do a little enhancements here and there, a few murders (fake martyr) a few miracle (fake sick or voodoo dead)

Now make sure hide the writing in some strange place, with loads of strange writing, and make sure someone finds it centuries later so they believe it is legit, and teach generations one after another to believe it is true and that you want to make sure that the story stays the same.

Make sure to leave behind material that can be link to the period, and also with DNA, objects, traces that can be scientifically analyze or proven.

Once all that has been going for centuries, or even longer it would not make a difference, if it never existed it never did. Its like dragons, beside the komodo dragon it existed and still does, dinosaurs too, but the dragons from fairy tales never did and never will. No matter how hard we want it too.

So without offending anyone or wanting to, clearly logically, Jesus existed and there is no doubt about it. There is to many proof physical that the mind can not just create or it would take a world wide organisation to create such a huge phenomena and it is impossible to attain especially if you look at the time frame it covers.

So a being can not be created by the will of a group, it can only be created when it has existed. It would be possible to be a being that was just a joe there and got raise to the level of faith giver and by so his reputation change forge and made to make us believe, that could be a possibility but I doubt it would stand the time so long. So I think Jesus existed.



•  REPLY  •


ContessaIsabella
ContessaIsabella

No Longer Registered
05:57:25 Nov 15 2010
Read 1,448 times

Interesting I like the analogy between belief in Dragons and Jesus.
Little children and Chinese people gave dragons credence hiding under covers....meteors overhead had spectral atoms altered on a quantum level and a few kids in the village saw a searing dragon streak across the sky;Thus the thought power was relatively little for that demi-god.

Now magnify that by centuries , reports of women sitting on read hot Iron Chairs, rather than denouncing faith...now that may cause a quantum shift in reality.Her kith and kin may conjour that which they yearn for.
When one examines the Huge spaces within atoms one realizes we are just a thought anyway...
False concept, no problem.Just harder to conjour.



•  REPLY  •


shadowknight23
shadowknight23
Grave Robber (22)
Posts: 2
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Member of Legion (Coven)
Vampire Rave member for 15 years.
16:33:17 Nov 23 2010
Read 1,434 times

In my eyes, the answer to that would be yes, only to the fact that to one religion or society another societies deity is false but the othre society will still believe in it. The fact that spiritual belife is still there means that there will always be a spirtiual form of the holy person(s) of the different religions/societies.



•  REPLY  •


UpirLikhyj
UpirLikhyj

No Longer Registered
18:28:12 Nov 24 2010
Read 1,420 times


The question has been specifically raised here as to where Yeshua Ben Yosef ("Joshua, Son of Joseph", as Jesus would have actually been known in his native language of Aramaic) could have been invented by others intent on establishing a church founded upon such a fictional and false "Messiah."

While this question has been kicked around for centuries and one I have personally invested a great deal of time to investigating as well, there seems to me that after all evidences are carefully considered on both sides of the question, there is one piece of evidence that unavoidably trumps all other evidences and swings the vote. And that would be the writings of the Roman Senator and historian, Tacitus.

Publius (or Gaius) Cornelius Tacitus lived from AD 56 – AD 117 and was a senator and a historian of the Roman Empire. His writings cover the history of the Roman Empire from the death of Augustus in AD 14 to the death of emperor Domitian in AD 96.

Tacitus was most avowedly a Pagan and decidedly anti-Christian. And, as a Roman Senator (the highest governmental position attainable by a Roman citizen) and noted historian of his Roman government and culture, he was in the unique position of having full access to Roman records and logs that detailed exactly what happened, especially events contemporary with his own time. And it was Tacitus who wrote the following regarding Jesus:

Consequently, to get rid of the report [of the fire of Rome], Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite punishments on a class hated for their disgraceful acts, called Chrestians by the populace. Christ, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.

- available in the original Latin here


When carefully examined, this statement by such an esteemed 1st Century Roman Senator, who was a Pagan and very clearly had no sympathy for Christians or anything coming out of Judaea, cannot be explained away or brushed aside. His is an undeniable voice of unquestioned governmental authority living only a few decades after "Christ's" death, the circumstances of which he describes in sufficient detail as to leave no doubt of whom he is speaking, and whose followers were at the time of his writing being murdered en masse by Nero.

Thus, there can be no doubt but that Tacitus had investigated the facts sufficient to accurately state the case. And as we know today, there was only one group called "Chrestians" (Christians) who were well documented to have been officially persecuted and murdered by the thousands under Nero, which group was, as Tacitus stated, founded upon the teachings of "Christ" who had been executed in Judaea by Pontious Pilate during the reign of Tiberius.

For me, at least, this is sufficient 1st-Century evidence from an official Senatorial authority who was also a noted Roman historian and who was most assuredly quite vociferously anti-Christian, that Jesus (Yeshua) did, indeed, exist.


- Upir'






•  REPLY  •


UpirLikhyj
UpirLikhyj

No Longer Registered
19:28:04 Nov 24 2010
Read 1,417 times

Now... with the evidence that the historical Jesus did, in fact, exist and was executed by Pilate (see above entry), the question for me is whether the church that arose thereafter was actually started by Jesus and whether its dogmae and teachings were Jesus' own.

On this question, there is to my view more than sufficient evidence to clearly show such not to be the case, at all.

While to provide all the evidences in support of such a view would fill a book, at least, I shall provide here what I view to be the key piece of evidence that, like the above entry, trumps all others.

As clearly stated in the New Testament, the Christianity that finally arose out of the hubris following the destruction of Jerusalem (ca 70 CE) and the Roman persecutions that continued until Constantine finally made Christianity the State religion in the early 4th Century CE, was largely the result of... one man. And that man was most assuredly NOT the historical Jesus.

The man truly responsible for Christianity and the Christian Church that followed was not Jesus but... Paul.

The apostles stayed in Jerusalem and its immediate environs while it was Paul, himself a Roman citizen, who traveled and proselytized with followers of his own choosing throughout the Roman-Greco world and taught a unique brand of what he called "Christianity" that in so many ways differed with and on several points was quite anti-thetical to that which Jesus taught. Paul's blatant misogyny and anti-marriage views are but two examples of the huge differences between Jesus' teachings and Paul's.

Additionally, as stated by Paul in his own book of Acts (written by Paul's scribe, another Roman named Lucas [Luke]), on two separate occasions, Paul was summoned to Jerusalem before the true apostles for teaching contrary to Jesus' own teachings! And yet, it was also Paul who repeatedly stated in his epistles to his followers that should anyone teach contrary to what he and his own followers taught "...let him be condemned to hell." (Galatians 1:8-9). Thus, even should the real apostles have arrived and taught anything differernt to such Pauline congregations, they would have been rejected.

Paul never once acknowledged before his own churches and congregations that he was in any way subordinate to the true apostles in Jerusalem. In fact, except in derision, Paul's epistles don't speak of the actual apostles at all. When reading any of his epistles (pretty much all the New Testament books following the four Gospels), he speaks almost entirely in the first person, declaring that everything he teaches... though claimed to be through Christ... comes only from himself, Paul.

Thus... in this manner and with the deaths of the other apostles, Paul succeeded in basically hijacking the entire Christian movment under himself, alone. Perhaps even more tellingly, history reveals that subsequent Roman persecutions succeeded in burning great numbers of original Christian documents. And yet, perhaps quite notably, almost the only books that survived those centuries of persecution and book burnings... were Paul's epistles. We have almost nothing remaining of the writings of any of the other apostles, and those few writings attributed to them have been revealed to have been written centuries after their deaths.

There is additionally the fact that prior to his claimed "conversion," Paul... as he, himself, admitted... had originally been employed by the Sadducean High Priests (Roman appointees and puppets, themselves) to deliberately arrest, imprison, interrogate and occasionally kill Christians. Thus, as a Roman citizen, himself, and thus obligated as such to support Roman authority, the additional question is raised as to whether he might have been ordered by his employers to "join them" rather than fight them further, and perhaps hijack the Christian movement (whatever it originally was) and turn it into a Rome-friendly institution to rival Judaism, itself... which is exactly what happened!

Given all of this, it certainly seems that what we know as Christianity today is but a shadow of what it was under the actual apostles.

Of course, this leaves entirely unaddressed the far greater question of whether the historical Jesus ever actually intended to start a new religion, at all! There are many evidences that he did not so intend given his frequent acknowledgments in the Gospels that, while sometimes corrupt and misguided, yet Judaism was the true religion and that the Temple was the true House of God.

So many fascinating topics for discussion in all of this, to be sure!


- Upir'









•  REPLY  •


Cabrion
Cabrion
Archfiend (57)
Posts: 429
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Member of CryptKeeper (Coven)
Vampire Rave member for 18 years.
06:21:46 Nov 25 2010
Read 1,409 times

There you go again, being all awesome and whatnot.



•  REPLY  •


FallenStar
FallenStar

No Longer Registered
06:34:48 Nov 26 2010
Read 1,398 times

Thanks Upir it seems Paul was the megalomaniac? The trouble with historical entries is they are only as good as the man that wrote them.
For instance a thousand years from now they will debate the religion of Obama, stating his visit to the East, his parents religion etc yet the fact he was hated by many Muslims and I suspect it will be seen as a paradox.
Did Paul try to please everyone like all politicians do, stating he is Pagan and burning the extremists to please his masters.Look at Tony Blair, gained power as the UK church of england man and then when the E.U presidency job appeared he converted to catholicism. it seems the EU is now disintegrating so he has moved to L.A. setting up a new hedge fund. Funny that, money ,power, religion and the truth all in a short paragraph and anyone who attempts to separate them is a fool.Oddly enough they genuinely believe they are doing the right thing, murders do the same.Justify things.

Probably Paul was the same, it is human nature to be self serving, greedy and unable to see the truth, it is weak. The strong see it for what it is and do it anyway.



•  REPLY  •


King`Tarquin
King`Tarquin
Sire (106)
Posts: 1,120
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Vampire Rave member for 21 years.
07:31:54 Nov 26 2010
Read 1,395 times

The power of the mind and influence.

Let's say for example - the world is ending and everyone's desperate to look for "Freedom" or "salvation"

Someone - out of nowhere - would just appear and claim that he has "answers" to what we're "all looking for."

But then again, it's a test of faith and nerves of steel, even.

A faltering faith and unsteady mind is always the first one to fall prey to false concepts and would eventually believe it to be reality.



•  REPLY  •


dabbler
dabbler
Venerable Sire (130)
Posts: 11,418
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Vampire Rave member for 18 years.
15:39:20 Nov 26 2010
Read 1,392 times

Thusly Cults thrive so well!



•  REPLY  •


UpirLikhyj
UpirLikhyj

No Longer Registered
20:02:39 Nov 26 2010
Read 1,387 times

AN, I don't recall having made any mention to Paul being a megalomaniac. What I said was that he might well have been operating under orders from Rome, as relayed to him via his employers, the Jewish High Priests who had already tasked him with destroying the Christian movement:

"I have heard many reports about this man (Paul) and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem. And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name." - Acts 9:13-14


It was in the course of accomplishing that very Gestapo-esque assignment that Paul suddenly claimed to have had... a "vision." And yet, when on at least three separate occasions in the New Testament that Paul recounts that vision, he can't get his story straight! In Acts 9, Paul states that those with him heard the voice that Paul heard... but saw no one, while the account given by Paul in Acts 22 has him declaring that they saw the light but heard no one.

However, for me at least there is a more blatant evidence here that Paul was probably working "undercover" for the Romans through their Rome-appointed Jewish High Priests. And that is the fact that on so many occasions, just as occurs today with undercover agents when threatened during covert assignments with great bodily injury, Paul is constantly being escorted by, protected by and even rescued by the police and armed forces of his day! In Paul's case, these were Roman soldiers, as summarized here:

Paul's Roman citizenship rescued him in Macedonia. A Roman soldier rescued him from the mob at Ephesus. Roman soldiers saved his life when the mob in Jerusalem wanted to kill him in the temple area. Roman soldiers escorted Paul from Caesarea to Rome on the voyage in which they suffered shipwreck. Roman soldiers delivered Paul to the Roman garrison of the Praetorian Guard for his imprisonment. Paul led a Roman governor to Christ in Cyprus. He was protected by another governor in Achaia. And a third governor sent him from Jerusalem to Rome.


As pointed out in the book "Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity" (fabulous book, btw), while Christian apologists downplay the great deal of special attention given Paul by high-ranking Roman authorities as simply being a function of Paul's Roman citizenship, yet this hardly begins to explain it. Paul was only one of thousands upon thousands of Jews who were Roman citizens and who frequented Jerusalem during those times. No such were given such personal protection as was enjoyed so often by Paul! Additionally, unlike other Jews, Paul was supposedly doing the same thing as what had caused Jesus to be crucified. And yet... yet again... Paul is given special treatment and is only imprisoned when in contact with local Jewish authorities for short periods of time... until he appeals to Rome. And why would he do this... except, yet again, if this permits him to be placed into contact with his Roman supervisors so as to be set free, which is what happens each time!

By the end of Acts ... where do we find Paul? He is set up quite nicely in Rome, in his own private villa, with his own entourage consisting of scribes, his own physician, and free to direct his (not Jesus') church as he pleases! Sound to me, at least, like the rewards given a man for a job well done.


- Upir'











•  REPLY  •


Cabrion
Cabrion
Archfiend (57)
Posts: 429
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Member of CryptKeeper (Coven)
Vampire Rave member for 18 years.
21:25:57 Nov 26 2010
Read 1,383 times

Mm, unfortunately i understand why Paul would have been imprisoned rather than crucified. Jesus was proclaiming to be the son of god, whereas Paul would only have been his prophet.



•  REPLY  •


UpirLikhyj
UpirLikhyj

No Longer Registered
00:00:09 Nov 27 2010
Read 1,378 times

Actually... I don't believe you are taking into account the fact that it was not just Jesus who was put to death. The first "apostle" to be killed was Stephen, whose stoning was accomplished under the direct supervision of Paul, himself. Thereafter, James, the true first successor to Jesus and also Jesus' own brother, was thrown from the walls of the city by the High Priest, Paul's employer, and then stoned to death. After this the rest of the apostles, so we are told anyway, were each put to death.

Paul... on the other hand... was not and, in fact, as we find him at the end of the Book of Acts, he is living in comfort in Rome with his own retinue or attendants while he continues to preach and otherwise direct the affairs of his church. And that is where history leaves Paul.


- Upir'



•  REPLY  •


Cabrion
Cabrion
Archfiend (57)
Posts: 429
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Member of CryptKeeper (Coven)
Vampire Rave member for 18 years.
08:39:18 Nov 28 2010
Read 1,369 times

i didnt read into the accounts of other prophets >_>
but from what i've heard a lot of the ones put to death were the ones who did outreach to a less-than-welcoming crowd.
it is really interesting, i've never thought about Paul like this before



•  REPLY  •


FallenStar
FallenStar

No Longer Registered
09:20:55 Nov 28 2010
Read 1,367 times

Wow, very cool Upir you know your facts.I love the story of Paul he sounds just like Blair. He eventually got sweet contracts with Morgan stanley and government Sachs was rescued from war crimes and torture accusations. Preaching to the green flock in the land of Arnies oranges.
I am just waiting for Blair to announce his 34th version of the green Bible.
Master King, just on a side note.I do not think a lack of faith leads to confusion, just unhappiness. Funnily enough I myself absolutely do believe.
I just refuse to be a"good little doggy "and no I won't fetch your ball or play your game. Unless you make me.
(So they did)

I am still wondering if this is a false reality and if all you crazy V.R folk are the ones throwing the ball?

How say you ~Sires?



•  REPLY  •


UpirLikhyj
UpirLikhyj

No Longer Registered
21:30:01 Nov 28 2010
Read 1,361 times

The subject of the historical Jesus is immensely intriguing to me. My research into who Jesus might truly have been was in part motivated by my research into the origins of the "Vampire," believe it or not. And what I have discovered re: the Historical Jesus is, frankly, as Earth shattering as was the movie "The Da Vinci Code," whose main theory, btw, is related to not only who Jesus truly was but also who and what the "Vampire" truly was and is, as well.

But... as regards this topic, there has indeed been an enormously deceptive "reality" spun from false concepts of who and what Jesus was so as to hide entirely who he truly was and what it was he was really attempting to restore back to this planet, for which reason he was "betrayed" (and not by Judas) and murdered. And none of this had anything at all to do with him being the "Messiah" or the "Savior." The strange thing is that... like the facts about Paul I have shared here... are RIGHT THERE in the New Testament, yet have been overlooked.

For example, why is it no one has bothered to recognize the enormous unanswered questions surrounding such basic Gospel narrative plot points as Judas' "betrayal" of Jesus (e.g., as everyone knew who Jesus was and knew that he often went to the Garden of Gethsemane to pray, why did they supposedly have to pay Judas to lead the guards to him and point him out?!) or the point of Peter being at the HIgh Priest's house in the company of the guards during Jesus' trial after he and the other "apostles" had previously ran away (supposedly) when Jesus was arrested by those SAME GUARDS only a few hours earlier. Why was Peter outside the High Priest's house with the guards just before dawn to begin with?! In fact, the entire events of Jesus' supposed betrayal, arrest and trials ... at least as found in the New Testament... make little sense and contain glaring omissions and unexplainable discrepancies. However, only if viewed stripped of it Pauline Christian "lens" does it all fit perfectly into place.

If one is interested in researching Jesus' true teachings and his actual mission... such can easily be found largely in the "Gospel of Thomas" (which Gospel is actually older than the oldest Bibilcal Gospel) and the "Gospel of Philip." The best translations for both that I have found can be read here.


- Upir'







•  REPLY  •


Cabrion
Cabrion
Archfiend (57)
Posts: 429
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Member of CryptKeeper (Coven)
Vampire Rave member for 18 years.
21:58:36 Nov 28 2010
Read 1,359 times

i was mad that the gospel of Judas was excluded from the bible, where he and Jesus sit down and Jesus explains what to do, and promises Judas that "His star will shine brighter than the rest" for playing the role that he did, a necessary role in Jesus' plans, assuming he did actually plan to get martyred, and that the gospel of Judas isn't just the coverup of a guilt-ridden man trying to justify his actions >_>



•  REPLY  •


FallenStar
FallenStar

No Longer Registered
14:38:58 Nov 29 2010
Read 1,353 times

Cabrion why be mad, people are always lying and making up the truth.Take today...wiki leaks.According to CNN an evil wiki leaks man posted illegal documents stolen by a military traitor and they are going to be "hanged".Reality? Right...wrong the BBC News says the US has been breaking international law by collecting DNa and hacking into United Nations members.Interesting that, they are testing their DNa why? I think they are making sure they are Human.He Hee.
which reality would each of us choose...depends on your perspective.
I agree with Upir the Paul vs Judas story will never be solved as there are too many lies.



•  REPLY  •


DieHardKilljoy
DieHardKilljoy
Evil Spirit (60)
Posts: 65
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Limbus Patrum (Coven) is a member of an Alliance

Member of Limbus Patrum (Coven)
Vampire Rave member for 15 years.
15:02:31 Nov 29 2010
Read 1,347 times

I think the author Terry Goodkind started it best when he wrote.

People are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want it to be true; or they're afraid it's true.
Given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe its true, or because they're afraid it might be true. Peoples' heads are full of knowledge, facts and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool.

And I do believe it's true, people can a reality come from false concepts. simple because its easier to believe their version of reality then reality itself.



•  REPLY  •


UpirLikhyj
UpirLikhyj

No Longer Registered
17:03:29 Nov 29 2010
Read 1,335 times

I'm not quite sure how we went from a discussion regarding the historical Jesus to the current topic of the recent disclosure by Wikileaks of secret government documents and DNA testing. However, getting back to your statement, Cabrion, regarding the supposed "Gospel of Judas," this pseudographia is dated to no earlier than the 4th Century CE, at least 300 years after Judas' supposed lifetime. Additionally, if one follows the strange development of the Judas story in the Biblical Gospels, one clearly sees an evolutionary process taking shape with the intent to both exonerate this "Judas" character while also making Jesus' betrayal and murder seem fore-ordained from the start.

In the Gospel of Mark, the only Biblical Gospel actually written in the First Century CE and, thus, within only a couple decades or so of Jesus' actual life, the account of Judas' supposed "betrayal" is covered with him as the bad guy and Jesus largely oblivious as to what he had done. However, with each Gospel thereafter in chronological order, the story is retold and each time it is, it is changed to have it seem more and more that Jesus knew about it and, by the time we reach the Gospel of John, it seems as though Jesus actually condoned it and that it was a key part of his earthly mission to be crucified. All of this went toward making the betrayal and Jesus' death seem... a wonderful and necessary thing! Thus, given this story arc taking place with each canonical retelling, it makes perfect sense that the ultimate destination that this continuing fictionalization would take... in fact, must take... is to have a final (and thankfully non-canonical) retelling in which we see Jesus actually orchestrating his own murder (?!?!?!) so as to make it truly appear to have been divinely commissioned and carried out with both God's and even Jesus' blessing.

And the Gospel of Judas provides exactly this. And thus, from the 4th Century CE on, we find that Pauline Christianity hinges solely (as has all the later branches of Christianity ever since) on Jesus' crucifixion as necessary and wonderful in saving Humankind from their sins... a view completely anti-thetical to that found in the Gospel of Mark but completely in alignment with what Paul taught, in direct contradiction to the teachings of either Jesus or his own true apostles.


- Upir'



•  REPLY  •


shadowknight23
shadowknight23
Grave Robber (22)
Posts: 2
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Member of Legion (Coven)
Vampire Rave member for 15 years.
18:19:43 Nov 29 2010
Read 1,331 times

to all the christianity stuff, who said it even happened, this is a perfect example of this topic, y'all say it happened without proof it happened and in my mind it never happened and it wasnt real so yes a reality can come from false concepts.



•  REPLY  •


FallenStar
FallenStar

No Longer Registered
18:36:01 Nov 29 2010
Read 1,328 times

Well shadow it is one thing to deny a belief but another to deny hard facts.Upir is talking about actual documents not could be, maybe, should be's.
It is like those people who deny the Jew hollocaust, even though there are pictures of their teeth and hair piled up next to lime pits full of bodies.



•  REPLY  •


UpirLikhyj
UpirLikhyj

No Longer Registered
19:06:33 Nov 29 2010
Read 1,326 times

shadowknight23, as we all are, you are of course welcome to believe what you will, of course.

However, where actual hard evidence is concerned regarding the truth of a historical Jesus, we have the writings of the 1st Century (i.e., contemporary with Jesus and his followers) of the Roman Senator and historian, Tacitus, who... though he hated Christians... stated clearly that "Christ" had been executed by Pontius Pilate in Judaea and that his followers were at that very time being put to death by Nero for supposedly having started the fires in Rome. All of this definitively identifies both the group and the founder of that group with Jesus of Nazareth.

I posted the entire statement by Tacitus, which you can read in my earlier entry here about halfway down this forum thread, including a link to the actual statement in the original Latin by Tacitus.


- Upir'



•  REPLY  •


Cabrion
Cabrion
Archfiend (57)
Posts: 429
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Member of CryptKeeper (Coven)
Vampire Rave member for 18 years.
23:33:15 Nov 30 2010
Read 1,314 times

AN, sure people lie all the time, but it doesnt mean i can't be mad about it. It's an injustice, no matter how many times it is performed.



•  REPLY  •


Cabrion
Cabrion
Archfiend (57)
Posts: 429
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Member of CryptKeeper (Coven)
Vampire Rave member for 18 years.
19:53:14 Dec 01 2010
Read 1,281 times

I doubt anyone trusts the banks these days. If anyone were to say how they're screwing people over, regardless of whether or not it were true, we'd believe it; mostly because we all have personal experience with how they've screwed us over.
Did you know that Hitler ate babies? I have documentation proving it, as well as pictures of him eating them. Pictures also include the widows, who only had those kids to keep their dreams alive. He preferred Portuguese children over Creole, saying that Creole tasted like stale bread drizzled with tomato vomit and milk.
That isn't true of course, but if i really wanted to i could make people believe it, spread it around, and in a year or so it'd be accepted as fact.



•  REPLY  •


Oceanne
Oceanne
Noble Sire (160)
Posts: 4,490
Honor: 11
[ Give / Take ]
Vampire Rave member for 18 years.
01:50:46 Dec 02 2010
Read 1,276 times

I think that false concepts can come from realities...
And do.
Alot.



•  REPLY  •


bloodtrope
bloodtrope
Lusus Naturae (45)
Posts: 82
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Member of The Coven of Purgatory
Vampire Rave member for 16 years.
01:52:28 Dec 02 2010
Read 1,274 times

The original question posed Jesus and Christianity as an example of belief being shaped over millennia not as the actual subject of discussion, imo. I immediately thought of current dynamics in the web world and how opinion is manipulated. That said, I can go either way. I believe Christ was a real historical figure not only because of the documentation that Upir sites, but because why not?

Lot's of dissension in the Hebrew ranks back then, and Jesus was just another one. That's not where the hype lays. It's in all the son of god and miracle stuff.

The Lord must die in many legends (Campbell). Some of that mythology transferred over to Jesus.

As for Wikileaks. So far I celebrate it. Will continue to celebrate it up until I get the feeling that the information has been leaked to up the ante in military spending because of the fear mongering. that would be the height of brilliance: creating a revolutionary icon whose ideal is honesty, but with the intent of heightening fear to achieve your end goal of more taxpayer investment in your ultimate interests: the enslavement of the populace.



•  REPLY  •


FateUnseen
FateUnseen
Shaitan (64)
Posts: 562
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Member of Wolves of Odin (Coven)
Vampire Rave member for 16 years.
18:09:25 Dec 03 2010
Read 1,261 times

Yes I do think that whatever else, Jesus the man was real, just like I think Muhammad the man was real and so was Buddha



•  REPLY  •


TerminalVelocity
TerminalVelocity
Shaitan (64)
Posts: 95
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Member of Legion (Coven)
Vampire Rave member for 16 years.
18:23:50 Dec 04 2010
Read 1,249 times

What's that old Hindu saying, " If to ponder God makes him so, then is it not that God needs us more than we need him ?

Yes physical things can manifest from false concepts. Just look at taxes,lol
But there has to other parameters, other than belief, to make it so. There are many beings involved in such a process. greed certainly does manifest into the physical, and its false sense of satisfaction, so why not other things ?



•  REPLY  •


Cabrion
Cabrion
Archfiend (57)
Posts: 429
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Member of CryptKeeper (Coven)
Vampire Rave member for 18 years.
19:04:15 Dec 04 2010
Read 1,245 times

I think Hercules was a real dude, cant tell me not, i read about him in a TON of books, even ones that werent about him!
Disney even made a biography about his life, DISNEY.
That's a reputable scientific community, what with their House of Innovation and whatnot.



•  REPLY  •


dabbler
dabbler
Venerable Sire (130)
Posts: 11,418
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Vampire Rave member for 18 years.
19:52:13 Dec 04 2010
Read 1,227 times

Folk Legends are made from ordinary characters into marvels by tale, and Hyperbole.



•  REPLY  •


vampierjazz2010
vampierjazz2010
Wraith (46)
Posts: 219
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Member of Legion (Coven)
Vampire Rave member for 20 years.
02:35:32 Dec 07 2010
Read 1,213 times

i honestly think the idea of jesus has been so change so much that we wont kno the whole idea of the things that happened back in that time period.



•  REPLY  •


littleflames
littleflames
Great Sire (118)
Posts: 5,024
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Vampire Rave member for 14 years.
01:54:23 Dec 12 2010
Read 1,198 times

well i think that no matter what changes people make to the bible it will always be the same its all how you see things not how you read them...
And as for being a Jesus being real we know that He is because he was written in history books not just the bible ...
and if we start to think that the history books are all lies we have nothing...
We all can think what we want to but if we think that we can just think someone out of this world well its not going to happen no matter how hard you try that...
Its like this if you kill a man does not mean that he will not live on, he does he lives on in the hearts who loved him.
There for if you think a man gone he is only gone to you but he is not gone ...
My point yes reality can come from a false concept one that a person dies when he dies is fales but people believe that its true they dont like to think that this life is the only one we have . because then if they are unhappy now they might be more unhappy when they die so they say to them self , when i die nothing happens i dont feel any more and i just stop feeling .



•  REPLY  •


ecovampira
ecovampira
Marplot (14)
Posts: 13
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Vampire Rave member for 15 years.
02:50:48 Dec 16 2010
Read 1,180 times

Historians argue whether Jesus ever really did exists a unique being!

Conjuring is indeed the manifestation of something from the energies around us. Perhaps a creature such as Jesus was created less from false ideas and more from powerful beliefs...

Although not a Christian, I do find some value in the myths and legends of Christianity. The wisdom is essentially the same as countless faiths before and after it. The power those teachings inspired in others could conjure a manifestation of a Jesus figure.

Consider this... perhaps this Jesus was not conjured from the light of the teachings, but the dark and ugly hatred Christianity has festered over the centuries? What kind of a savior might these Christians face if those forces bring him into existence?



•  REPLY  •


Magic25UK
Magic25UK
Premiere Sire (122)
Posts: 401
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Vampire Rave member for 18 years.
00:25:59 Dec 17 2010
Read 1,167 times

Anybody could create a spirit concept of some sort. A individual or a group of people create an egregore spirit through intense imagination and meditation, which is a concept representing a thoughtform. They create a spirit or collective group of spirits in their own deep minds, by raising them, and they create a personality and a characteristic for the spirit. Try looking up the meaning of Egregore spirits. They are created and made up by an individual or a group of people.



•  REPLY  •


Angelus
Angelus
Premiere Sire (129)
Posts: 1,988
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Vampire Rave member for 21 years.
23:44:53 Dec 18 2010
Read 1,156 times

tempted to think.. on this.. again.

ALL the major religions, talk one thing..

do not kill..


what the frell is the first thing THEY doi to 'defend' their faith, KILL.



•  REPLY  •


Magic25UK
Magic25UK
Premiere Sire (122)
Posts: 401
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Vampire Rave member for 18 years.
22:26:28 Dec 19 2010
Read 1,150 times

They killed heretics and witches in the 16th century, and they say it's a sin to kill.



•  REPLY  •


Angelus
Angelus
Premiere Sire (129)
Posts: 1,988
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Vampire Rave member for 21 years.
00:48:56 Dec 20 2010
Read 1,148 times

heretics, those who questioned a religion run from Rome...

witches? anyone, just anyone different.. like those with schitzoid tendancies and, those who practicise herbalism and..

yep, I stick by what I said, formal religion, of any kind.. STINKS.



•  REPLY  •


LordKeymoths
LordKeymoths
Needler (12)
Posts: 7
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Vampire Rave member for 15 years.
00:50:22 Dec 24 2010
Read 1,140 times

Yes.... We can make really ANYTHING we want real if we truely believe that it can exist



•  REPLY  •


Cabrion
Cabrion
Archfiend (57)
Posts: 429
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Member of CryptKeeper (Coven)
Vampire Rave member for 18 years.
21:47:02 Dec 24 2010
Read 1,129 times

"well i think that no matter what changes people make to the bible it will always be the same its all how you see things not how you read them..."

did you know that not long ago there was official debate as to whether or not God would start being referred to in the bible as being Female as well? Meaning they would actually go in and write it down that way, changing what was in the bible. I'm sure you can get that version online.
But anyway, what of the other books that were never put in the bible? After all, all the bible is is a compilation of letters written by the famous prophets at the time.



•  REPLY  •


toxicenvy
toxicenvy
Malignant Spirit (49)
Posts: 19
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Limbus Patrum (Coven) is a member of an Alliance

Member of Limbus Patrum (Coven)
Vampire Rave member for 15 years.
08:37:39 Dec 25 2010
Read 1,124 times

yea man i hear you there people tell me all the time ima go to hell becouse i dont beleave in the bible i cant trust a book written by man i just lisstion to my heart and dose what it tells me and if god really wants me to know anything he can let me know i mean comon he is god he dont need you to read a book written by another man i have been to quiet a few churches and everyone of them interpits the bible diffrent same passage came out with diffrent meanings and then theres the old and new testiment umm the bible is suppoused to be gods word right why you gotta change it and im pretty sure its says your not suppoused to change it if i remember right i have even asked a few pasters why most couldnt give me a reply to my question and the rest told me it needed to be changed to keep up with the times so like i tell everyone i meet dont bleave what another man tells you bleave in what your heart tells you pretty much this is what i got from the bible

1.god created every thing
2.dont do bad things kill steal well you guys know
3.you do any thing bad you go to hell
4.you do bad things ask me to for give you its done
5.hey i had a son jesus
7.hey charity helps gets you in to heaven
8.opps heres a plauge for egipt and sodom and gomorrah gets destroyed and 2 girls gets there father drunk and well you know
9.heres a list of comandments
10.hey ima have a rapture and take all those loyal to me and leave the rest of you to be destroyed and live in hell in earth wile i have a war with hell

wow thats was fast yeah yeah i know this is gonna give me some bad karma but oh well


Cabrion
Carnal Creature (56)
Posts: 285








Can A Reality Come From False Concepts
Posted: 16:47:02 - Dec 24 2010
Times viewed: 5

"well i think that no matter what changes people make to the bible it will always be the same its all how you see things not how you read them..."

did you know that not long ago there was official debate as to whether or not God would start being referred to in the bible as being Female as well? Meaning they would actually go in and write it down that way, changing what was in the bible. I'm sure you can get that version online.
But anyway, what of the other books that were never put in the bible? After all, all the bible is is a compilation of letters written by the famous prophets at the time.



•  REPLY  •


Lblood
Lblood
Nihilist (19)
Posts: 16
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Vampire Rave member for 15 years.
18:50:29 Jan 02 2011
Read 1,102 times

Yes, this can happen. That is how religion was created. You can see religion, it doesn't physically exist, but it is the strongest human influence in the world. It is entirely spiritual, and created by belief.



•  REPLY  •


Cabrion
Cabrion
Archfiend (57)
Posts: 429
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Member of CryptKeeper (Coven)
Vampire Rave member for 18 years.
04:22:21 Jan 03 2011
Read 1,093 times

All my heart says is "beat....beatbeat....beat....beatbeat..."
If i took that advice i'd be in prison by now, surely



•  REPLY  •



• • • • THIS THREAD IS CLOSED • • • •
•  Closed by Vampirewitch39 on Feb 15 2011  •

•  General Discussion Home  •   Forums Home  •

COMPANY
REQUEST HELP
CONTACT US
SITEMAP
REPORT A BUG
UPDATES
LEGAL
TERMS OF SERVICE
PRIVACY POLICY
DMCA POLICY
REAL VAMPIRES LOVE VAMPIRE RAVE
© 2004 - 2026 Vampire Rave
All Rights Reserved.
Vampire Rave is a member of 
Page generated in 0.7446 seconds.
X
Username:

Password:
I agree to Vampire Rave's Privacy Policy.
I agree to Vampire Rave's Terms of Service.
I agree to Vampire Rave's DMCA Policy.
I agree to Vampire Rave's use of Cookies.
•  SIGN UP •  GET PASSWORD •  GET USERNAME  •
X