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I found the following information on the internet and wondered what others thoughts were on demonology.

Demonology

"The other shape,
If shape it might be call'd, that shape had none,
Distinguishable in member, joint, or limb;
Or substance might be call'd that shadow seem'd;
For each seem'd either; black it stood as night,
Fierce as ten furies, terrible as Hell,
And shook a dreadful dart; what seem'd his head
The likeness of a kingly crown had on.
Satan was now at hand; and from his seat
The monster, moving onward, came as fast
With horrid strides; Hell trembled as he strode."
-- John Milton



Introduction
The term "demons" was not always understood to have the absolutely negative connotation that it does today. Homer used the terms "demons" and "gods" more or less interchangeably. Another opinion was that demons were intermediaries between men and gods, and that demons had once been men. Plutarch speaks of "human souls as commencing, first heroes, then demons, and afterward as advancing to a more sublime degree." Philo of Byblus seems to draw on this same tradition when he states that, "The most ancient of the barbarians, especially the Phoenicians and Egyptians, from whom other people derived this custom, accounted those the greatest gods who had found out things most necessary and useful in life -- and had been benefactors to mankind."

Our current use of the term "demon" is to denote a malignant spirit, and comes to us primarily form New Testament writers. However, there is still uncertainty as to whether or not demons are considered to be distinct and separate from the Devil and his fallen angels.



Demoniacal Possession

Demon possession - that is, a human who has become inhabited or "taken over" by a demon and who cannot, consequently, exercise his own will - is noted in the New Testament, specifically in Mark, Chapter 5, ver. 12. Josephus also mentions a method of exorcism prescribed by Solomon, which had "prevailed or succeeded greatly among them down to the present time." Unfortunately, Josephus does not describe the method used.

There is little doubt that most of what was described in older times as "demon possession" would today be diagnosed as some sort of mental illness, and treated accordingly. Nevertheless, a few cases of possession do seem to crop up from time to time, and the Roman Catholic Church does continue (sparingly) to perform exorcisms.



Periods of Increased Demon Activity

Some historians of times past believed that there were cycles during which demonic activity increased, and used this theory to explain various occurrences, much in the same way as today's economic historians might explain historical events in terms of trade, productivity and other factors. These older historians saw a rise in demonic activity accompanying such occurrences as the destruction of Jerusalem, the fall of Rome and the French Revolution, and would in all likelihood also have viewed the demonic theory at work in relation to the rise of Nazism and World War II.



Demoniacal Prophesy

Ancients also had a sort of faith in the prophetic words spoken by those whom they believed to be possessed by demons, and this was sometimes a component of ancient oracles. In connection with this, it is worth pointing out that a respected modern-day professor of psychology once witnessed a friend, who was suffering from paranoid schizophrenia make a specific and surprising prophecy that turned out to be perfectly accurate. The professor had no explanation for this event. although one is tempted to hypothesize that there is a link between altered mental states and psychic ability. Some also associate the ouija board with demoniacal prophesy, and those who have seen Linda Blair in The Exorcist will recall that this was how her character's problems began.

This information was found on the following address:

http://www.djmcadam.com/demons.htm

Our thoughts on specifically what about Demonology?

Any aspect of demonology atall, particularly the information in this thread or on the website i have given.

I think this question is still too broad given the information you've given as it covers such a broad range of things that it will end up with little focus and direction.

Personally my take on the bit about human possession, I think it's crap. And that the primary people that experience it are weak of spirit or folks that do something stupid to invite the Demon around.

It is my thought that too many people are arrogant enough to think of themselves as gifted magicians, where they have little discipline and even less studies completed that were not done on the World Wide Web.

could be something to do with thecontent and printers not liking to associate themselves with such content?

Leibe i tend to agree with you in the fact that the idea of demonic posession is indeed quite hilarious in my view.

Infact i think we should maybe start with demonic posession as the first part of this topic to converse about....i will repost the information about demonic posession below.

M

Demon ology - I take it is the study of demons, but I feel the introduction should stand up to scrutiny so people can have something to build on

The only thing I know a little about is the possession part, so I checked the main text.

In the reference to St Mark 5:12 it actually shows the devils themselves asking Christ to send them into a herd of swine and away from their human host. Its a poor reference for that text

It also states that the Catholic Church still does exorcisms, officially they stopped in June 30th, 1976 - I know a lot of people reckon otherwise but this article doesn't support what it has said with one shred of evidence to oppose the Vatican

It is written by a guy who mostly gives advice on book collecting and offers his opinion on astrology books, Bicycle Playing Cards, birthstones, classical guitar music, hobbies, holidays (including Valentine's Day, Thanksgiving, Halloween and Christmas), jigsaw puzzles, laws of etiquette, literary taste, love letters, Native Americans ....

I simply feel its not the best introduction to other folk on such a complicated subject

Demoniacal Possession

Demon possession - that is, a human who has become inhabited or "taken over" by a demon and who cannot, consequently, exercise his own will - is noted in the New Testament, specifically in Mark, Chapter 5, ver. 12. Josephus also mentions a method of exorcism prescribed by Solomon, which had "prevailed or succeeded greatly among them down to the present time." Unfortunately, Josephus does not describe the method used.

There is little doubt that most of what was described in older times as "demon possession" would today be diagnosed as some sort of mental illness, and treated accordingly. Nevertheless, a few cases of possession do seem to crop up from time to time, and the Roman Catholic Church does continue (sparingly) to perform exorcisms.


What do people think about this?

In my opinion it is a farce, especially the part about the fact that the catholic church performing exorcisms....that made me laugh.

In my opinion there are many more demons than the ones that the church deem themselves responsible for that have been named by so many people. Satanic demons are the type that the catholic church are apparently qualified to exorcise. However, consider the fact that there may well be other forms of demon (such as astral demonic entities and such) that could possibly posess a soul.

I just do not believe for one minute that it would be easy for any form of demonic entity to posess any mortal as if they could we would be seeing posessions as an everyday occurence would we not?

What do you think???

I agree that demonic possession seems silly; especially since in modern times a lot of possessions could be explained by psychological problems.

I don't know enough about exorcisms to talk about that. That's my husband's area.

Catholic Church performing exorcisms made you laugh? Why ? They definitely did it, the vatican website goes into some detail about them.

In the other exorcism / possession threads, I said that I believ that the victim simply believed that they were possessed, when in fact they were ill, and they were just as convinced that the ceremony would send the demons away - so it worked.

I think this is the reason that al catholic exorcisms were always performed with no witnesses - the explanation was always that the driven out demn would enter the non-devote witness - imho it ws more likely that a witness would add an element of doubt that would stop the victim from believing that the demon would be driven out.

I mean no disrespect to the church in any way, i know that many exorcisms have been successfully performed. What made me laugh is the fact that the church can only perform exorcisms of the demons that they acknowledge, so what happens to the poor fools who have summoned a demon that the church refuse to acknowledge, do they get left in the gutter to suffer, or will the church take them in and help them, and if the church try to help, are they themselves trying to fool themselves?

M

don't know much about this subject i mean i knoe about demons and such just not excosism not being of a religious mind i think and agree with artemka about it to be sure most of them were ill and needed only psychological help.

I also think menerfecious has a point too what does happen to those who are possesed by unrecognised demons? and which demons are recognised and which are not?

Ah I see what you mean now.

I thought part of the exorcism was to get the possessing demon to identify itself, so the church surely wouldn't know what demon it was dealing with until well into the exorcism and banishing it

I think the church had success with exorcism (based on my theory) because, in thosre days people had an unswerving and unquestioning belief in the church. So they beliveed themselves better if that makes sense

Yes i know what you mean, what i wonder about now is because there are not as many that have that faith in the church or in themselves anymore as science continues to challenge the bible, would that affect any exorcisms that the church may deem it necessary to do, i believe they continue to do them in very special conditions.

All I have read of them is on the vatican website. they did stop them for a long time and then allowed an extraordinary one on Emily Rose in 1976 - that was an extraordinary event and they recorded it, don't see why they would not record any others.

I honestly don't think that science is ever challenging the bible, because the bible is not a book that can be taken literally - science is challenging what people of that time believed in and presenting many new ideas to explain why things happened.

Was there anything else of your own on demonology that you can offer us?

Queenlilith, in my original post there is a web address, maybe you would like to look there as there is a list of what are generally known to be demons.

M

As i said in my original post i found this information on the internet. I myslef have not studied demonology very much atall and not for over 10 years which limits my knowledge to very little.

M

Hmmmm are you guys done fighting ?

As I said before I don't think that particular site is such a good example, his opinions don't stand up to any real looking at and he, himself, doesn't pretend to be an expert just interested in a wide range of (mostly non-occult) subjects. ... I know its the first hit if you google 'demonology' but that's more to do with the exteranl links rather than the quality of the contents.

Imho I would think a slightly better introduction would be here, good ole wikipedia, whose listing summarises 37 reputable reference books

It defines demonology as

Demonology is the branch of theology relating to superhuman beings who are not gods. It deals both with benevolent beings that have no circle of worshipers or so limited a circle as to be below the rank of gods, and with malevolent beings of all kinds. It may be noted that the original sense of "demon," from the time of Homer onward, was a benevolent being; but in English the name now connotes malevolence. Demons, when they are regarded as spirits, may belong to either of the classes of spirits recognized by primitive animism; that is to say, they may be human, or non-human, separable souls, or discarnate spirits which have never inhabited a body. A sharp distinction is often drawn between these two classes, notably by the Melanesians, the West Africans and others; the Arab djinn, for example, are not reducible to modified human souls; at the same time these classes are frequently conceived as producing identical results, e.g. diseases.

I agree, demon possesion does seem pretty bogus to me. There are documented cases, but, just like with everything else, you can't believe everything you read.

I've done a considerable amount of research (I have more than 300 pages of info) on demons and demonology for the novel I'm writing, so if anyone wants any more info, feel free to let me know.

This is a very interesting topic and one which I have no significant knowledge of ty fo bringing this into view if either of you have any liable sources on this topic please feel free to message me .

I know little on Demonology. I understand that once upon a time someone with epilepsy would have been seen as having a Demon in them in fact there is still superstition around today, stupidly enough!

However Demons seem real to me, that the universe would have to have a negative force just as strong as the positive to always have a good sense of balance. So therefore to me Demons have to exist as a part of the universal balance. No one can prove or disprove their existance.

Also Demonology has been around since ancient times, long before the catholic church were performing exocisms... Pagans have been performing their own exocisms long before christianity took is hold on the world. Just food for thought there.

I think a person may actually beleive that they are possessed by a demon even though thats most likely not the case.
The human mind can develop a different or virtual reality in some people who may be inclined to mental illnesses for physiological or psychological reasons.

As some have stated before, being possesed by a demon is only by those with weak spirts and do things to invite the demon in. There are many ways to do so, and one can be turning a cross upside down for many hours. I can not be in the same room with a cross turned upside down, it gives way to bad of vibes.

I do not beleive in the demonic possession but I do beleive in the demonic control, taking control and possessing is to diferent thing. as to possesse would me the person no longer exist as it no longer possesses, so there demon would be the owner, which is not possible but it can tho control a person.

my view on demonic possession is- that anyone with a weak mind can easily be persuaded to do things by such a entity that would be out of their controll-also i feel it is possible if one plays with conjurings and opening of the gates without realizing how to harness the power correctly and then possession may be possible in that stae of manner...there are many levels of possession that one can have occur upon themselves.

well I have a diffrent spin on this I don't think true demons can enter this plane...only there servents who came from this plane to begian with can......

Thanks for the link leibe, rather an interesting site.

Dragonspawn

I know what you are trying to say, but what of those like alister crowley who has indeed drawn such demons and even named them in much of his work?

Works of fantasy? Works of a drug induced state? Or maybe something that he could well have experienced.

Also I have seen people perform automatic drawings of such entities and then label them with a name, and after some research ahve found them to be among the list of demonic entities known to the vatican. Can you explain how this could be accomplished if they can not actually enter our plane of existence.

I believe that they can, but i also believe that their access is very limited so they cannot manifest here completely.

Why is it that the catholic church does do excorcism to this day? They do eliminate all possiblities and then when all else fails the eexcorcist is called..it does happen

a person has to be dead first to demonize a person who is alive right...?

I think you'll find (as artemka correctly stated i believe) that the catholic church do not perform exorcisms any more....the last one was performed in the 70's and was very controversial. I am sure some of you have seen the film....The Exorcism of Emily Rose.....well it IS based on FACT and actual events that happened.

Since then the catholic church have not performed any that i am aware of (if they have then they have kept it very very quiet). I do know that they do still perform cleansings and blessings though.

After searching the vatican site for any reference to recent exorcisms that have been performed, i have to report that since the exorsicm of emily rose there have been no other exorcisms documented.

M

I know very little about demonology, but what I know is what a friend of mine, who is a catholic priest told me once about the exorcisms... the catholic church has performed some in the past, but after have found that the person is not faking, the person has a real behaviour according to their books, and meanwhile they study and think about it, many people died because of injures, since they can't control their bodies...

I do think that religion has played a big part in the move demons have made to the black arts or evil side of the supernatural. Obviously Christianity played one of the biggest roles since it proposed that any form of divination or work with 'spirits' was a form of demonology and therefore a sin.

Earlier religions were not quite so firm in their condemnation. Early Jewish and Islamic paths allowed for working with beings and efforts to control beings who may even wish to work against mankind. Djins & Afrits (effrits) were looked upon as something not to be trusted but something that could be worked with. Later they became more Christian demons. Early jewish work and beliefs with the sublunar demons claims that they were made by god and subject to him...they wouldn't harm humans unless annoyed by them.

Japanese culture has as much to do with working WITH demons as one would work to confuse or keep them away. Some demons are uncontrollable but some were kept active in duties for monarchs and 'wizards' or even simply those who knew how to trick them.

one of my studies and one which is never boring indeed.To practice takes great care however, one never knows what one may get.
Many close the mind to this aspect of life and study.and more is the lose for them, even if one does not believe, knowledge is always good.

I agree nocturnis, there are too many that do not wish to study and close their minds to such things due to fear.

However, I am a great believer in the saying "know thy enemy"....and if demons decided that i was their enemy, or i decided that they are my enemy, at least i know enough to be able to say that i know them.

wow Menerfecious wide spread on a wonderful topic. Ok possession …
I don’t want to sound ignorant but “The church” has utilized this phenonimum.
Most of the information only backs the church as having power over something it clearly doesn’t.
Promoting a lie I guess. Dear Alister Crowley worked with some keys and made a book on it bless his cotton socks.
I believe they are part of us, engage them and understand them take the power away and you become whole.
Ignore them and deny your deepest feelings and they will consume you.

From my study of psychology I have found that people who are psychotic often here an alien voice in their head. When the voices tell you to take action, to do something, it is called command hallucination. This would seem to be consistent with the person behaving as though they were "possessed".
Deamons have power because we give them power over us because this is what we are taught. They are the spirits of old gods and goddesses who were "deamonized" long ago by the Israelites. Such names as Baal, Asthoroth and Asmodeus, are ancient middle-eastern god and goddess names, now known as deamons, because they are the enemies of Jehova.

I think the church still do exorcisms they just do not publicize them because they do not want to look like a bunch of nut cases to the general public...

I believe that deomons are real as is possession. All the details about the hows and whys are currently unknown to me, but this thread has definatly made me interested in at least looking into it. I mostly agree with Felix on the part of the "Christian" church and their role on demons and spirits. I also believe that its due to their own failing to understand the whole Bible (that being the book from which they get all their answers from supposedly). The book of Jude speaks of spirits and how to judge them. From a Christian perspective this, along with other parts of the Bible dealing with spirits, lets us know that they are real. However if we are supposed to judge them, does that not imply that we are supposed to be working with at least some of them? After all how can one judge something that one has no interaction with? Will post more on this once I have done my homework on the subject. I strongly agree with your desire M on studying them, and for the reasons you stated.

I think its fair to say that the Catholic Church no longer 'have' to do exorcisms, they now accept that a great many people who were exorcised were, in fact, mentally ill

The ceremony simply convinced sick people that they were going to get better in some way. If the ceremony was more convincing than their illness, they were cured

The church started to be very scientific in their approach and found that, once mental illness and fakes were ruled out, there was nothing left to exorcise

The church, of course, will argue very strongly that the devil and demons DO exist, they will battle against them and influences every day - they would never ever regard any battle against evil as making them looking foolish

While the church believes very strongly in evil, it has now laid down its beliefs very publically, that demonic possession of a human can't happen - so they don't have a need to exorcise

The church continues to perform lots of other ceremonies every day without fearing looking foolish in their beliefs.

I don't think its correct to come up with a statement that says "the church still does exorcisms but doesn't tell you because it doesn't want to ...."

I believe that evangelical christians have taken up the mantle of exorcism in recent decades...however, the Holy See has still kept rules or modified definitions of exorcism.

"In a simple form, exorcism is performed at the celebration of Baptism. the solemn exorcism, called "a major exorcism," can be performed only by a priest and with the permission of the bishop. the priest must proceed with prudence, strictly observing the rules established by the Church." - Catechism of the Catholic Church (April 2003 official Vatican text)

The Bible and I believe the Torah specifically forbids sorcery, interpreters of omens, spell casters, spiritists and those who call the dead. However, even that leaves some wiggle room if you read that working with demons might not necessarily be spell casting or sorcery. Still, it's a very tiny tiny loophole and really if one believes in their god, it's not about what the book says or doesn't say but what they feel their god will judge them for...conscience be your guide and all that :)

I don't have a religious faith so my interpretation of demonology is simply this...any binding or bargain or command that a demon obeys is likely due to the power you have given in to it and not due to some inherent power of a sigil or name. It would also strike me that since a demon is literally a metaphysical being, it's belief in otherworldly power is probably greater than yours and you'd be at a serious disadvantage if you should decide to take on an adversarial role with something like that. The normal normal warnings about this sort of thing would likely apply in most respects that the newly initiated or acolyte would be hard pressed to get the results they want and would likely get results they didn't want.

There is more wiggle room than you might believe Felix. The texts in the Old Testament that refers to those "professions" if you will, are not the same as they are today. If you look, most of the different versions of the Bible either A: are related to the King James Versions in some way, usually just upgrading the language of it. or B: use the same terms as used in the King James. The reason I am pointing out the King James version is not to soap box it, but simply because it was the first version put in English and therefore had the largest impact to society. Now if you get a 1611 english dictionary (1611 being the year that this version of the Bible was released) and look at the terms that we associate with the above stated "professions" you will see a large difference in what the terms ment then as to what thy read now. Sorcorer can actually be made to be equivalent to a modern doctor. There are several other instances. As proof that there is more to it than what the modern church teaches here is another example. In the book of Acts a sorcorer comes to Peter and trys to buy the power of the Holy Spirit. Peter tells him that it can not be bought. The sorcorer then begins to fly around, and Peter takes the guys power away so that he falls to his death. No mention is made that this guy having this power to do stuff is wrong. The only thing he gets flak from Peter for is trying to buy more power. This tells me that its not as simple as the church would have u s to believe as to what is correct in learning and practicing.

while the catholic church may no longer do exorcisms, there are very fanatical branchs of protestant faith that do there own rituals for such situations. quick lil flashback... when i was young, my mom was a southern baptist which eventually became nondenominational. i remember coming out of the restroom when i was 6 and seeing a guy @ the front of the church convulsing and foaming @ the mouth while the pastor and a visiting evangelist tried to cast his demons out. talk about freaked out and slinking my way into my pew... i had nightmares about this incident for a long time...

It's hard to find the truth now...at least for me it is. Everyone lies too much.

I agree wholeheartedly raven, there are way too many lies surrounding subjects such as this.

I have to say that christianity has caused more war and suffering than any other religion on the planet. The holy wars etc etc etc have helped to kill and maim thousands and thousands of innocent people. The witch trials were performed by the "faithful" as according to "the good book" and yet how many of those involved in the many witch hunts that were performed over the world were actually innocent?

I think that maybe religion in itself may well be one of the largest demons on the earth. They claim to be good and yet they cause so much strife and conflict.

Well I don't think your intent was to turn this into a Christianity bashing, it's clear that in order to grow and evolve through the multitudes of cultures and nations, organized Christianity and more specifically early Roman Catholicism did play a part in 'demonizing old gods and deities' and that in some cultures pre-judeo christian working with demons was acceptable so long as you were smart enough to know what you were doing.

It's also worth pointing out (and perhaps I already did) that originally, demons were considered made by god and that they were in fact 'part of his/her plan.

Although it's funny that one story claims that God was making demons but didn't finish in time before the Sabbath (7th day of rest) and so left them without making them bodies. I find it ironic that the creation of demons could be ascribed to the "mistake" of an all powerful "all knowing" being but there you go...mans interpretation of the divine will always be skewed by projection of his own qualities.

Well said felix and I agree whole heartedly.

Indeed, this was not really meant to become a religious debate or bashing, it was meant to be a thrread about the existence of demons.

So back to the topic in hand.......

Has anyone ever heard of a neutral demonic entity (please not i did say neutral) that is known to me as the chaos demon (and this is not something i got from a book or a RPG game conducted by TSR or Wizards of the Coast, this is infact a real demonic entity as far as I am concerned).

I'm not sure i've mentioned this before but Chaos magic is interesting to me because it revolves around using anything you want as a focus to harness your energy or the energy around you. Fiction and RPG is actually completely acceptable means of focus. Spell writing is an art much like story writing only your goal is to focus yourself towards a goal or event. Those who practice claim that the success is far more often because they aren't held back by a kink in someone else's theology or earlier belief.

That being said, a chaos demon could be related to that in the way of being an energy being that coalesces around your own imagined purpose or it could be natural energy that you shape to the desired affect. I would think that many demons that have been spoken of or described in detail were shaped by their summoner or took a form they thought pleasing or were invented wholly in the imagination.

I don't believe that anything is strictly evil or good and it's a reason behind my lack of faith in these bigger than life supernatural good and evil gods and devils. Neutral is natural. Neutral is choice. Perhaps it's my own shortcoming but I can't envision an alignment without choice. Being strictly evil implies as stagnant and unmoving a choice as being permanently good. In this way, a neutral demon would be the only way I could really see them...though perhaps leaning this way or that :)

Thankyou Felix, as a chaos warlock I can relate to what you have said entirely. I have been practising chaos magick for many years, and do indeed, use fiction and fantasy in some of my work to visualise what it is that I am trying to actually achieve.

Some extremely wise words from you there.

M

I do not know much about demonology but i believe in possession 100% their are probably thousands of undocumented cases of demonic possession all over the world, and i have to believe that their are some truths to atleast some of thoes cases...

I am sure that you are right Raven Knight.

I have looked at the databases held by the catholic church and since the exorcism of emily rose in the 1970's I can see no further documentation. However, I cannot believe that there have been no more exorcisms since then, nor can I believe that demons suddenly stopped posessing people just because the church stopped performing these rituals (if indeed they have).

I have to say that I have witnessed an exorcism and a blessing myself, so I know that the church of england have not abolished them. My next stop for research is indeed the church of englands archives.

Mener

interesting read :) but arent we all demons in a way?? noone is 100% good

i do belive there is some truth behide demonic possesions. I wouldn't go as far to potrey it like on constantine, or emeily rose. if the cathlic church has stop recording exorsisms sanctioned in its name. there must still be exorsisms done.

I was surprised to learn that demons were once thought of in a good light, never know that.

This is something I would like to explore further, when I get my mind round chaos/energy....one thing at a time for me lol