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i don't wanna go in that religion/brainwash thread, i was just thinking about the concept of religion...

the living in society needs rules, and laws, rights and duties...
those could be given by a religion.
the teachings of that religion says what's bad and what's wrong: most r obvious 'living in society' rules like: u won't kill...
in that point religion r helpfull...
but in todays society, with all those religions, people don't act following the religion, but they choose a religion that allows them to do what they do...
do u c my point?
if anyone has a religion that enables him to do whatever he wants, it's just anarchy!!!
an anarchy that could lead us to a new religion war.

I would have to agree, though it would seem that the world is already on the verge of a religious war. With the issue in the middle-east going on, i would expect something more drastic to happen very soon.
Though, on a lighter note, there certain types of religions out there that allow you to live as you already do, so long as you follow a few of the codes written down.
But, in the end, the religions of today are nothing compared to what they once were, heck, most weren't that good to begin with.

Just remember, they are only a guideline on what they believe is the best way to live. In the end, it all comes back to your choice.

By the way, for those playing at home, i do not follow any real religion, and i am not one of these really strange religion fanatics. I'm just a guy with an opinion.
Thanks.

I agree completely D. I think you hit it right on the nose. My beliefes are that most countries were origonally founded on religion, and religion has led to wars in the past, and history seems to repeat itself. Religion has led us through crusades and revolutionary wars, desperate feets to gain "the holy land in the name of god(s)" Why should this century be any diffrent than any other? I believe that though notions are founded on religion, they lose that which they once sought, and hence a new war for a new religion breaks out, or two religions conflict so much that they go to war to preserve their god, and to find if their god(s) is/are really watching over them. It's an endless cycle.

Note: like D I am not a religious person myself, granted I have my spiritual beliefes, but nothing more

This is a hot topic folks, let's try and keep it clean...

Remember, nothing fires up the belly more than religion and politics.

Thanks love, we'll do our best to keep it at a dull roar

Will do. Don't want to incite the masses ;).

i also want it to be a clean thread!
i was just asking myself about the place of religion in our society.
the concept of religion, any religion...
i wasn't trying to argue about 1 religion in particular...

and btw i'm not the religious kind either...

sorry but I dont see wear religon is linked to anarche so if youd like to explain that feel free

if anybody chooses his religion according to his own sense of good and bad, would still good and bad mean anything?
and if no good and bad anybody could do whatever he wants...

true but that has nothing to do with anarche which is without structur a religion is structur and any ways anarche would never exist becouse humans would not allow it

Well, in a scense, anarchy is a religion, is it not? Think about it. Religion is based on worshiping something in order to better yourself. In such, if you are following anarchy, or chaos, you are "worshiping" that which is disorder, making that the center focus and the so called "religious figure".

I am not an anarchist, so if there are any here, and I offend you, its not my intent, its just the way I view it ( human nature, find something that makes scense to you) So, again apologies if they are required

appology xcepted

Hey, here's something to get you thinking. You know how it is pretty much excepted that Cults or mostly bad things, though there are a few exceptions.
Anyway, what do you call a cult on a world wide scale...

Religion.

it doesnt even need to be on a world wide scale

true, but my point is made none the less.

hang on, i'll make an amendment.

What's a cult on a LARGE scale:

Religion

There we go, that's better.

yes thats perfect

Hey OB, I donot know what to say ,cos I agree with every single word you said!!!

When it comes to religions and the beliefs in them I have always found two groups: The ones that use their beliefs as an excuse to do as they wish and the ones that believe that everyone should do what their beliefs say. There is always going to be a conflict is one way or another. That is why that phrase "Why can't we all just get along" will never work. It is in our nature and our beliefs (to some extent) not too.

hmm....anarchy i guess what ur sayin is pretty much true. Thats why i say fuck religon and i believe in myself.

Yeah, lets keep this thread clean :-)

I think that at the time, before any proper judicial system, religion was a useless thing to control people, and make them more subordinant by giving them a sence of personal morality.

I do think their is something more to life than 'this', but I dont believe in the religions of society. Theres definately something we are missing....

i completely agree with you ob1. people now a days just choose what religion will let them do what they want and that is anarchy.

interesting topic
the larger problem is in fundamentalist fanatics only using parts of the texts
I have read the bible, koran, book of mormon, parts of the talmud, and a few other bits and pieces
what i have found is they are mostly saying the same things
the problem appears when people use one small phrase instead of the greater concepts they teach.
how thou shalt not kill turns into we are gods people and others must follow or die i've never known
but i'm ranting now
I may add more later
my.02$

its always good when dearmon comments

So true, it's always so enlightening to hear from him.

Your point has been heard and accepted.

I dunno whether to blush or bow
hehehe
really people it's only common sense...the ability to engage brain before mouth
as elder dan does...write out your responses and think them over before posting.....think about how you would feel about attacks on yourself and your beliefs...and respond accordingly and politely....although I do get a little harsh myself from time to time also.....
but I don't claim to be more that human either

and the typos are a great example of such

Religons do not exist. If God put Adam and Eve as the first 2 people on earth then we are all related, right? Keep it in the family. Has anyone actually seen the Big Guy? No. So its crap if you ask me.

for the most part i am think skinned to the religion and politic thing, unless well you just happen to catch me on a really bad day, with all the religions and ways of doing thing i think you have to develop it just to get through the day.
i don't particularly subscribe to a religion, i use christianity as my base though, because that is what i grew up with. in other words if what you say makes sense then i will adapt it into my beliefs. so although i am basicaly slapping together a my own belief system, which incorrperates things from more places than i know of, i have more or less developed my own code of morals, based upon what seems right and wrong in how i see things working in the world and what works for me. so not that you have read a very long story.....
i think that for the most part people will just make their own morals, even if they subscribe to one organized belief system, and for the most part we get along just fine.
it may seem like a lot of people do wrong, but in proportion to the people that don't, i think that anarchy is not something to worry about.

opps typo, meant to but now that you have read a long story...

don't miss self esteem so much daermon,
u waved a great point there!
not only they r lots of religions but people also take only the parts they want in it...

and 4 vampyric666, religions do exist!!!
religions r an important social fact, driving a large part of the history of many countries...
what u meant was maybe: "religions r wrong" which is not the point of this thread!

I see we have some new faces on this thread, I am pleased it is spreading.

From what I have just read (and it is quite a lot from my last post...sorry) I find that there are so many valid points made thus far. I never thought I would have a disscussion with this many people, as it usually incites hard feelings and puts people on bad terms with eachohter, but I'm going to continue knowing this.

Although religion has always been put foremost in societies and culturs past, it seems to be losing its grip on our presant state, ecspecially in the United States, but I don't want to drag that into it. I agree entirely with what was said about religions posing a foundation for fundamental values and in taking the place in the absence of laws. It appears that most laws are founded on most religious beliefs, but it seems that they also get added to certain peoples personal values.

As for personal beliefs, as also mentioned above, I think everyone starts off being brought up in some form of religion, and from that they start to form their own beliefs from it. It seems common now a days to see two people from the same religion to be bickering over how they traslated a verse or scripture, and I find it appawling that we can't "all just get along"

I'm pretty sure religions were created by tribal elders to answer the three questions, why am I here...etc.

If a mass of people didn't have a common belief systems, or anything to fear beyond the local population, anarchy reigns and you have no sense of security. You can tell the kids not to kill, but if they don't think anyones looking what's the harm? God is always looking and you will pay.

William Penn started a new revalution with the constitution of Pennsylvania, Thomas Jefferson picked the ball up and ran with it. Even though the founding fathers believed in religion, mostly christianity, they understood that freedom of any "safe" religion was more lucrative. I think they wanted people to follow A religion because of their codes of conduct, but not any perticlular. This has worked out great for the past 200 years. What tomarrow might bring will be seen...tomarrow.

Most other countries still hang on to their national religion thing, which causes problems world wide.

Spell check.

now thzt u mzntion it loki, i realize that even if i'm no longer a believer, much of my beliefs turn around my young age as a catholic...

good point OB1
I was raised baptist.....and even though I stay far from the christian ideals now.....I am greatly influenced by them
i'm just glad the the main ones instilled in me as a child were all men are creted equal
and judge not lest ye yourself be judged
and the sunday school teacher I had was open about revering all of gods creation...trees, animals, each other, and the very world itself....this is what led me into my current set of beliefs

That's a great point ob1. I was raised a christian but right now i don't have a religion. Even though i don't have a religion i still go by some things that my parents taught me trying to teach me. Like good morals and how everyone is equal.

Great thread.
I see religion as a good means to instill "virtues or morals" into kids, I certainly am glad for my strict religious upbringing - and although I am no longer big on religion, I still have my kids attend church and youth activities.
Especially these days when effective parenting seems to be a thing of the past, the role of religion in defining a moral foundation seems to be growing.

I almost agree with everyone of you.I don't want to accuse anyone or offend any religion but there are some people who accuse someone for doing a bad thing cause religion says so, and those people themselves don't obbey those rules and do much worse.In my country there was a tv programme which was on religion and was said that people who like rock or dress black are bad people and are of a particular religion that is evil( I don't want to mention what cause I don't want to accuse or judge anyone)and this thing really made a panic in the country and caused me n to some of my friends probs.So my point is that most people are so brainwashed by religion that don't realise that they don't think with their brains but with other's.

     Religions? ...There's really no need for such concepts... Morality is the best way on to live your life... People waste time on memorizing prayers, novenas, creeds and other litanies; giving offerings to inanimate objects; sacrificing their whole life for entire devotion for their god; celebrating on such nonsense as the birth of their god; asking forgiveness on clergy people you don't even know; and giving your whole heart trusting that they will save your soul on a supposed eternal damnation.

     Have your own scales of morality, your own sense of goodness and badness in acts... that's how you can live as a rational human being, rather than a seemingly fanatic person idolizing a supreme being.

     Don't you think that this concept of religion are going way over our heads? I say live your life and figure out your real goals. Don't be trailed away from it.

     Sacrificial for the sake of the mankind? Geez... can't you even see what is the real purpose of your life? Happiness Pure happiness this is our main goal, everyone wants to obtain this and you must not forget that you also have this same goal.

Religion is boring... all those rules, a waste of time really, although one might memorize them, they almost always end up breaking a rule in their religion.

in my mind religion is a good way to teach childs morality!
my main idea opening this thread was about the need of religion (4 morality) and if now a days with all religions this still work...
the last 2 posts seem to think it's again a 'do u follow a religion? y?' thread...
it's more like a sociologic thread to me...

I see it this way...you go by all the rules you miss all the fun *wipes blood from my friends neck*....like this

Thats the wonderful thing about religions, you can follow them without being persecuted!!! I AM A CHRISTIAN!!! you know... and the only way it would lead to war, is if a radical group decides to try to force their religion on someone else. So in America you can be a Christian, muslim, hindu, or whatever, and not be persucuted by the law. Yes, I do attend church regulalry, and yes i do practise that faith every day!!!

i would have to say that religion is ther for reasons that people choose and the world is already at a war over religion this world is currup and for that they will all suffer

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.............*giggles*

well im an athist i dont beleive in that crap

been an atheist hasn't anything to do with this thread...
noone seems to get the point now...
i'de better let the thread die now...

hmmm....

I think there is something missing when a person thinks that a religion is required for children to be moral....

if you ask most children what is right and wrong they have it pretty straight....

it's the adults whom are confused mostly.....

religion to me seems like a powder keg waiting to be abused and missused.....

As it has been over and over again......

What most people end up fallowing is some form of natural law that is to their own benifit....

That being the case I try not to look at a person as a function of their religion, but sometimes that isn't prudent

You are wrong ob1. Civil law and religion should be separate.

For instance, homosexuals : under civil law they have the full rights and privileges of citizenship (and that is a good thing). But that doesn't give them the right to choose a religion that allows them to do what they want.

Mainstream religions have laws that are more binding than the laws that bind a community together.

I have never read of a Tibetan Buddhist monk that raped children.

There is nothing wrong with religion. There's a lot wrong with imperfect people.

You must always ask yourself why some people are so obsessed with removing religion from every vestibule of society. These are of course, usually the same people that champion civil rights and freedom of thought and speech. Hypocrites.

i'm totally with u Mr Prince!
even if i never thought about u as a bouddhist!
no ... forget it(or answer private, this thread won't get religious...)
well teached religions r no bad!

personaly i agree with you ob1, when a someone is raised with religion, even if they move past that one, they still hold the morals. so religion is a good thing.
atheism, is a religion though. a religion is a system of believes, and well they form their believes around there being no God, or god(s). it is natural for us to simply believe in things because we can't know how everything works but we still go with the fact that it does. before you knew about gravity you knew you'd fall if you jumped out of a tree.
to make sure this stays where it was designed to...
yeah religion helps with morals

DeathIsBecoming ... not quite correct on the definition of atheism.

"The average theologian (there are exceptions, of course) uses 'atheist' to mean a person who denies the existence of a God. Even an atheist would agree that some atheists (a small minority) would fit this definition.

"However, most atheists would strongly dispute the adequacy of this definition. Rather, they would hold that an atheist is a person without a belief in God.

"The distiniction is small but important. Denying something means that you have knowledge of what it is that you are being asked to affirm, but that you have rejected that particular concept.

"To be without a belief in God merely means that the term 'god' has no importance or possibly no meaning to you. Belief in God is not a factor in your life. Surely this is quite different from denying the existence of God.

"Atheism is not a belief as such. It is the lack of belief."

Click here to find more about atheism - this site is where I pulled the above information.

Perhaps I should have said "incomplete" rather than incorrect.

Apologies. :)

i agree with requiem on that point...
atheism is no religion, or in fact not as i c them in this thread..

religion.........hummmmmmmm, big money..but I agree with cancer the monks have it right they are self supported.don't anything for anyone...

i would have to agree with cancer to, but what the problem is, is people who do not except other religons if everyou was exepted for who and whatthery were then maby you would never here of anyone being raped

to answer the other religion=hope thread, it could be interressant to make this one live again...

Cancer hit the nail on this one I think...though in Buddhism there is no deity per se that is worshipped. And therefore no real "god" that is to be followed at the expense of other non-believers... Still the point remains...it's not religiostity that causes the problems...it's imperfect humans that do.

religion is pure people are not. I found my path when the one society said was acceptable in one breath and hurt before the second breath. Your religion is what matters to you, But I also think that when you stand before your maker and say I was a 'good' person that it will not matter what name you called she/he

i'm wondering...
would life in society be possible without religions?
even if france is a non religious state, (church and state have split centuries ago), the laws seem to follow catholic morality...

and most of what we do is driven by morality more than laws...
there is no parking place there, but it disturbs nobody and nothing, so i'm parking anyway...

with all the religion existing, often contraditing each others about morality, i think people don't get there own morality from religion, but choose a religion according to a shaky selfmade morality...
in such case, morality is no longer an objective value, but it's turning to a subjective thing!

man needs a set of rules for without them our socity(sorry for speling its early) will fall into the middle ages yet abain for with out the force of religeon morality there would be 1,000's more children born everyday

things are really possible with out religion alot of people dont realize that but its true.

For some people religon is there life. I cover shifts at a local monastry thats open to the public. They're life is religon based. But i dont see the point takin the piss outta them for it!

Cancer hit it . Think about this one even the apostles who walked with christ had diffrent veiws on his preachings. we are just diffrent ppl. no one apostle walked away with the same understanding as another. john wrote a totally diffrent gospel than thomas or mary magdelen. religion is all based on ideas or points that are misunderstood or misinterpetid. Churches in the first century who organized the bible added the gospels of only certain ppl who would best help them control their followers. now as for other religions i imagine it is the same. religion is a tool and a guid no one is right but, no one is wrong it is up to the indivisual to decide. War will always be over religion,ideas,and change it is in our nature to war and fued. If gods rules dont applie to you then mans rules will as in america at any time the country, goverment could decide to put the country under martial law. this would have nothing to do with religion but. goverment they are the same all is law. either gods or mans and we will war to decide who is right and who is wrong for what we belive is freedom.

>>the living in society needs rules, and laws, rights and duties...
those could be given by a religion.

"re·li·gion (rĭ-lĭj'ən)
n.

Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.

A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

The life or condition of a person in a religious order.

A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion."


I consider everything above absolutely useless and wrong! If god created us that means that we all have the same set of rules implemented in us and its called instinct! Why do you think that someone perfect and flawless, who created nature to function absolutely perfect without any additional set of rules, would create a new race and then say:"Oh, shit, I forgot to implement the rules in them, Okay, here's a set of books..."? And if we aren't created by god and if we are not perfect then we are doomed to extinct with or without religion, because something that is corrupt tend to corrupt more and more!

... I forgot one more thing why religion is bad thing: It makes people more different!
If there was no religion, there would be one thing less to defend and to offend!

i do get the original,and it makes sense,but the world went through and going through a 'religous' war

Dang, i leave the forums alone for a short while and then this thread just booms. It's great to see so many peoples thoughts on the subject.

Ob1 does have a really good point, like i said earlier. Religions just started out as, basically, a moral code. What we see today is thing blown totally our of proportion. The churches are more interested in their internal politics and coffers nowadays. Instead of hording a lot of cash why not use that to help people around the world. Granted, they may be doing that to some extent at the moment, but i believe they could do so much more.

Anyway, i got off track there. Ob1 has made a good point about whether we could live without religion. I believe personally that we could live without religion. All we need is what those religions started as...a moral code based on common sense.

It's that simple...

that's it vampirehunterd!
that thread isn't about religion true/false, but good/bad sociologically...
and i agree on your vision of beginning of them: it all started with moral...
the stories coming with r like legends to interress people...
like many legends it counts a part of truth...

Yes, exactly. It's good to hear that i got it spot on again. :)

Yes, exactly.
It's good to hear that i got it spot on again. :)

Opps. Posted that message twice by accident. Meh, happens to the best of us.