Dear Vampire Rave,
I ask this of you, each of you have an opinion on this I am sure, but what is 'GOTH', and what is not?
I have had some interesting views put forward to me.
While I for one love black, the darker things in life etc, I have never considered myself to be 'GOTH".
So I ask you, what is GOTH and what is not?
My Fav Color's Are Red/Black The De4vil Color's And That To Me Is Goth I'm Gothic I Love Being In The Dark And All I Ever Wear Is Black So Yeah.
Thats something that id never try to define just because it can come in many forms so ill just repeat what you said and say the darker side of things/life
This has been mulled over in the threads time and time again.
It's a lifestyle and thought process through which many find themselves in. It's not just about wearing black constantly. In fact, I don't wear it all the time-- you'd never think I was 'goth' seeing me on the street.
I appreciate all opinions, whether they are being posted 'once again' or for the first time, I basically am interested in peoples views, and while there may be many that have seen this question posed time and time again, I ask you to appreciate that their are many that may also have a fresh opinion to the subject.
I ask that the question be given respect, and the time for all those to voice their opinions.
We are all individuals with our own opinions, voice them.
stupid steriotypes...thats all pretty much, most think its all gloomy
GOTHS:
Dont always wear black
dont worship satan
are not evil
do not want to kill people
do not hate everybody
are not always depressed
can be happy too
are usually nice people
are normal, just like you (last one might not apply to everyone here)
i think GOTH has changed over the years. everyone sees it differently. i never thought i was goth even though i dressed in black. i never followed the life style and that to me is goth.
It's more about a state of mind. I can wear whatever color I want (although usually I have on at least one black thing), I listen to a variety of music (although I can't stand country or rap), but I have a rather twisted mind.
with me it depends, nowadays i call it new age goth ya know wear all black, black lipstick, the whole i love death state of mind, but the original "goths" we the visagoths who were barbarians over in europe back during biblical times.
i'm going to have to say a pessamist, someone who is always negative, always wears black, and completely hates life in it entirety
Billy You're great You and I would get along.... oh and my response Why do people feel they have to classify everyone and everything? My Mom calls me a Gotha hippie S8R FREAK!!!
iam with Tikkimunster that like going back in time and try to tell a cave man or woman how a tv works thers just no way of defineing it every one see it as a diff thing some as a fad some as a life stlye
I was going to come out with the visigoth statement. They were a Germanic tribe, who were patitaly responsible for the fall of the Roman Empire.
On the other hand, I think that goth is being able to appreciate the darker side of life, be it with litrature or music. It's a form of self expression, and the reason I have been dumped, some men just don't like women having opinions that they made all on their own.
goth - Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 :
Goth:
1. (Ethnol.) One of an ancient Teutonic race, who dwelt between the Elbe and the Vistula in the early part of the christian era, and who overran and took an important part in subverting the Roman empire.
Note: Under the reign of Valens, they took possession of Dacia (the modern Transylvania and the adjoining regions), and came to be known as Ostrogoths and Visigoths, or East and West Goths; the former inhabiting countries on the Black Sea up to the Danube, and the latter on this river generally. Some of them took possession of the province of Moesia, and hence were called Moesogoths. Others, who made their way to Scandinavia, at a time unknown to history, sometimes styled Suiogoths.
2. One who is rude or uncivilized; a barbarian; a rude, ignorant person.
There is no one defintition for "goth" each person has there own, you don't have to be certain things to be goth, I know alot of ppl that are gothic that don't even dress in all black, the clothes are just a small part of it, it is what you feel in your heart soul and mind that makes you gothis.
according to the dictonary-Goth is a modern subculture that first became popular during the early 1980s within the gothic rock scene, an offshoot of post-punk. It is associated with characteristically "gothic" tastes in music and clothing. Styles of dress range from death rock, punk, Victorian, androgyny, some Renaissance style clothes, a combination of the above, and/or lots of black attire, and makeup.

i agree with lostinyourtears, it cant be described...as a quote i found the other day says, "you ask 10 goths what it is to be goth adn you will get 11 diffrent answers"
goth is a name that pp call u when they don't understand why u wear so much black, look different than all the rest...so on and so forth...i just don't understand y everyone has to fit into a catagory anymore...i wear a lot of black, i dye my hair black and my fave color is pink...but because i have black hair, black nails and im naturally very pale, i get labeled...i think labels are stupid...but that is just me
good to know the people on this site still talk crap...
I halfheartedly agree with most of these statements, even though [yes] some of them are a bit, er, childish.
Goth is many things, but I think today's label definition, /not/ the dictionary definition, but the first thing that comes to mind when someone says it is:
An obsession with the dead/undead, such as vampires, as is most common.
A tendancy towards the darker colors, black, greys, reds, purples, greens.
A taste for angry, loud music with much growling and screaming involved, or [my preference] melodramatic, strung out, almost unearthly music, usually sung by a female.
Someone with a 'dark' personality, an air of mystery, as if they have many secrets and seem like they have been involved in what society deems forbidden.
GothSCENE:
Tattoos, piercings, clothing, hairstyles, and the like. Different in a moody, nearly frightening way.
I think today's definition is all stereotypes and predjudice. It bothers me a bit.
I wear black pants with pink Hello Kitty on them, a black shirt, and my hair is black and pink. Therefor I'm 'that goth kid'. It's annoying.
I know there's SOMEONE out there who must agree with me, I'm not the only one this bothers.
Right?
Goth is a culture that has many forms.....There is no true definition of the culture as it has many offshoots...
I am Goth in my believes but I listen to a myriad of music....I tend to steer well clear of Rap or R&B though as on the whole i find it sucks...
Threads about this subject will never end.
Being attracted to things that others fear and transform negativity into something beautiful like poetry.(My opinion)
What it became today?
A label to show how much cool you are.
If being goth was being different in the 80's then now it losts it's significance cause all of them are the same.(My observation)
I don't even want to imagine how the gothic scene is going to be in 20 years time,I fear that tought!!!!
''So c'on let's dress in black and show the world how cool we are at hating others.''
the term goth comes from an ancient term meaning the dark ages if i am correct it is during those times that the witchs were burned at the stake now a days goth is considered anything dark and morbid
I dont hate others and I dont always dress in black...Infact a lot of the times when i go out I am rather flourescent and glowy, being more EBM than EMO
Deathnitegrl, I really respect what you said. You're right. These labels we throw out there, they're all just trends.
I fear the future too, doll.
Ugh.
Labels will always be there...It is the way of society....Without them how would i be able to see the difference between coca cola and pepsi????
Sure but why is it important to put labells on people?
Do you really care who is goth,prep,rapper etc...?
I talk with people of every label,religion,nationality,race,sexual orientation,culture....should I talk to those who arei nt he gothic sene only?
Should I talk with those who have my label only?
Is it important to be labelled and be part of aa group?
Can't you just say I am myself rather than a label?
I know everyone labels and they are part of our lives...but seams they are very important to the point that we should talk to people that have our label only.
And btw before I et attacked:
I am in the gothic scene as well.That comment wasn't for everyone.I mentioned no name,it's just an obsevation I made.
I heard of perople who call themselves goths saying such things that's why.
So now don't attack me if you disagree with me.Attack meo nly if I direct my opinion on a name only.
Thank you.
And like it was said before,goths are found in history.
The astro goths and the visigoths but the goth term in this topic is referred to the modern one.
No it is not necessary to have a label, but if I have to be labeled as anythign then Goth is good for me...
I agree that it is not important, all I was saying is that unfortunately society seems to deem it fit to do so.
I have friends that could be placed under a myriad of categories but they are still my friends as I find them interesting, fun and on the whole honest.
At the end of the day it matters not wheterh your a Goth or a Chav/Prep, as long as you dont judge me for what I am and that your honest and true to yourself i dont care.
However if someone wants to label me a goth and deem me an unsociable psychopath....F*&K em i dont care. I know who I am my friends know who I am the world is big enough for us to live side by side, if he/she is offended by me they can walk away...I am not asking them to be in my company.
A label is just a label, if they want to stick on one me and judge me on that basis, it shows their ignorance why should i let it bother me.
Same with me I get labelled a lot of nasty things by people who hate and wanted to do me harm,yet am still alive unlucikily for them.
Labells will always be there,when you are a teenager you get labelled goth,prep etc...when you are an adult you'll be labelled according your job,social status,marital status,etc...
Usually I am seen in jeans,sports shoes and a cheap coloured top.
If anyone wants to talk with me,talk with me for who I am not the label I have.
I am also fed up to be compared with other people,so nowadays I dress gothic only when going to gothic parties and feel myself.
The third reason is that nowadays I have to obey dress codes.
But even when you grow you can't get off from labells,people will always label you,hate them or love,it's part of our existance.
Labells were given even here if you noticed,so they are everywhere.
well i cant define what a goth is, its jsut what a person believes in, you cant go by clothes or how they speak, at the end of the day, colours are colours, i dont judge i wouldnt like to be judged, so i keep my opinions to myself unless asked for them
goth is not a type, it really is a stereotype of those who don't care to follow the crowd
It's a title that people have given to those who choose to dress a little different or act a little different. Come on everyone knows how society loves to put labels on everyone nowadays!
Goth!
If I had to classify goth as something simple, yet articulate,... it is the solemn acceptance of darker side of life, as well as the imperfections in your personal self.
Some people are willing to express it.
Some are not.
Some people will come across it painfully.
Some will not.
Some people take it into themselves wisely.
Some... do not.
Goth is its own spectrum.
Nevertheless, it orbits around that one ideal.
ROFL at BillyTheJust's post,now am reading it.
Thanks very much for the laugh.
But you're following a crowd anyway when you label yourself as 'Goth', so how non-comformist can you actually be? Go drink some coffee and cry yourself to sleep. lmao
Ok, maybe that was a little mean. Sorry. I think.
Seriously though, I tried to call myself a goth in high school, but everyone said I was too happy. Had the clothes, had the makeup, but I just kept having to make people laugh.
In my opinion, if you're calling yourself anything, goth, prep, and it refers to more than the style of dress, then you're hiding. Be who you are and if others call you a goth or a ...freaking, chav, or something, go them and their ability to pick out fashion styles, but it doesn't have to affect you.
What is GOTH you ask, well let me tell you something.
30% of the world is GOTH...!
7% of the world are GOTH pertenders
63% of the equals to other
That's just the facts, but in my opinion, a GOTH is anyone who rufuses the light, accepts the darkness, and grasps the name.
Exactly if you give a label to yourself you can't be anti-confirmist.
Anyway I got the label of goth and I don't even know I have it.
Ok fair enough let it be.
I've got an entry about my journal about the gothic stuff and there is in my profile as well.
If being a goth makes me appriciate such art then am glad I got this label.

If you do not consider yourself Goth, then you arent. It is not only a look but also the feeling. If you dont feel it, u arent. Maybe you just like the colors. Many people can like dark colors but arent Goth...
mm... interesting threat... well it's all about how u feel. a goth is a person that sees beyond this world. his thinking is much deeper....anyway if u want to recognize one, u can look for someone dressed in black and red, long black or red hair, usually not really social...
most of us here are goths
*sigh*
Or would it be better for me to say that goth is an intangible concept?
I'm not sure... many have different ideas on what it really is. Some consider me " GOTH " Even though I have tended to wear colors other then black....
I hate to post something this long, but it contains the answer you search for. Truly, this is a great article. All of the article legal information is at the bottom.
"Goth is actually much more than the sum of its parts, and, depending on who you ask, you can get a bewildering array of contradictory answers, many of which are valid parts of a much larger subculture. It is more than a label or description. Goth is at once a lifestyle and a philosophy that has its roots firmly embedded both in the historical past and the present.
The central Ideal that characterizes Goth is an almost compulsive drive towards creativity and self-expression that seeks to reach out and ensnare its audience using our current society's covert but deeply rooted fascination with all things dark and frightening. This act can be either subtle and seducing or nightmarishly terrifying, but it must play on what society secretly knows but can not acknowledge to itself about its duality. The mediums of self-expression and creation can be anything from a mode of dress to novels or music. Imagination and originality have always been key elements in Goth.
As a lifestyle, Goth is as diversified as its adherents. There really is no true unifying stereotype or dress code as it were. Not all Goths are depressed, nor do they all wear black, listen to the same music, or employ the same modes of self-expression. This tends to make Goth-spotting a little tricky and creates part of the tangled confusion over what it is to begin with, but this diversity also is one of the defining factors.
So how does one identify a real Goth if they are all so different? Now we reach part of the heart of the counterculture! You see, as mentioned earlier, one of Goth's defining characteristics is the need to take the underlying darkness that is in all of us and bring it into the light in such a way as we can recognize it as what it is-an integral part of all of us, for better or for worse.
To better understand what Goth really is, it is essential to know where it came from. It has been with us for much longer than the label we have given it. This is a subculture that has appeared, flourished, then died, only to rise again in many eras and in many societies. Its adherents have always been the young intellegensia, frustrated and bored by the parent culture. The parent cultures were usually restrictive, highly stratified into rigid caste structures, and intolerant of diversity in schools of art and thought. Because of this, nearly every manifestation of this particular type of counter-culture was greeted with suspicion, hostility, and sometimes active aggression on the part of its parent culture. Only rarely was this brand of subculture welcomed and allowed to flourish, as it was during the Italian Renaissance.
Goth, as we currently know it, has its roots in Western Europe and North America during the late seventies and early eighties. The counterculture was, and still is, dominated by dissatisfied youth hailing from the middle classes, which were at that time just entering a new period of prosperous stability. The children of these newly wealthy were left, unlike their parents, with a strong feeling of instability and lack of identity. They were unable to reconcile the new values their society was trying to impress upon them with their newly fragile sense of self. The tightening lines of social restructure were separating them from their accustomed peers in both the upper and lower classes.
Responding to the confusion and theft of identity, a few of the brightest and most creative children of these newly prosperous families began to create their own social structure. It was a counter culture based on a synthesis of historical elements, leaning heavily on dramatic traditions, philosophies, and schools of thought such as were popular in Byronic England, World War Two Germany, and American Beat. After spending some time with no real name for themselves many dubbed themselves New Romantics while others just called themselves Deathers then swiftly settled on Gothic as the counter culture grew and became more stable.
Always more than a little bipolar in nature, Goth split into two distinct factions, one Appolonian and the other Dionysan in its approach, by 1981 when it had reached its peak. Each faction was a personification of the mixed fear and fascination the Goths felt for the darker side of their parents' legacy of materialism, elitism, and false sense of moral superiority. The difference lay in their ways of expressing their sense of alienation and abandonment.
The more Appolonian faction were mainly concerned with the artistic and philosophical facets of Goth. They were, for the most part, fairly non confrontational in their means of self-expression. They were in most cases all but obsessed with the act of creation and the appreciation of literature, art and music. A number of them attempted to legitimize their subculture in the eyes of the parent culture with very little success. Because they were regarded as harmless, if morbid dreamers, they were tolerated.
The more Dionysan faction of Goth passionately embraced the more hedonistic and sometimes self-destructive facets of the movement. Their contributions to Goth were more ephemeral and less easy to define in traditional terms as creativity, but still were vibrant with the haunted, dark spirit of the counter culture. Some of the more prominent Goth musicians and thinkers belonged to this faction. Being more confrontational in their self-expression, they were regarded by the parent culture as dangerous and undesirable.
The modern stereotype of Goth is a twisted caricature of the more Dionysan faction that captures its decadence and tendency towards self-destruction while entirely missing its subtle artistry and depth, not to mention the entire point of Goth as a whole.
By 1987, both factions of Goth had almost completely vanished, absorbed back into the parent culture as their members were forced to accept conformity to ensure individual survival as adults. A marginal percentage of the original Goth community were able to adapt to adult life remaining essentially and visibly true to themselves, while still managing to keep the income necessary to maintain the rising price of living in the style to which they had become accustomed. By this time, the new generation of disaffected youth had already begun to imitate what they perceived of the Dionysan Goths. They had embraced the dark and dangerous style of dress and felt that the lonely, arrogant music was written just for them. The stereotypical lifestyle was adventurous and daring enough to spark their already bored and world-weary imaginations.
The "kindergothen" were met by rejection and almost knee-jerk disapproval by their parent culture and the remainders of the Goth community alike with almost no exceptions. Those few original Goths who tried to embrace the new groups were usually met with cold hostility and anger by those who had already either been rejected by others or had heard of the rejection. The schism between the Olde School and the new was widened even more by the labels of "Poseur" and "Faux Goth" that were bandied between the sides.
By the nineties, the artistry and philosophy that drove the Goth culture had been by and large replaced with attitude, posturing and dress code. The few remaining Olde School Goths and their protégés had gone underground and were not a part of the new rise of Goth, refusing to have much to do with what they considered shallow, inarticulate upstarts that paid to much attention to what the media thought was Goth. They saw the new Goth as little more than a group of image driven drug addicts that had nothing better to offer than a dress code and a bad attitude. The New School's opinions of the originals wasn't much better.
In the last few years, both Olde School and New have embraced the Internet. It has become both a medium for self-expression and a battleground between them. Oddly enough, the advent of easy access to the W3 has revealed in the New School an increased drive towards the creativity and self-expression that the Olde School Goths hold in such high esteem. The New School Goths, or Goffs as many of them have begun to call themselves, have become more like the originals than either side of the schism seems to wish to admit. Hopefully this trend will continue to thrive on the Web, bringing fresh blood and a new outlook to Goth's grasp on the dark undercurrents of our society's imagination. After all, the sweetest of flowers always did have a tendency to rise from the darkest and least savory of soils. "
Azhrarn, 1997-1998 © Feel free to distribute, mirror, or otherwise reproduce this either in part or in its entirety. I ask nothing but credit for its making. That I will insist on. Strenuously
I wear black all the time, I like the darker things of life myself. I am a Witch and a Vampire. I am NOT Goth or Gothic. I am just me..I think Goth or Gothic was just a label given my society to define the rebellious youth, when they had no labels. Has anyone ever looked up the word Goth in the dictionary. These are my views.
i dont really know what it is because it's so hard to define.... but my mom said she always knew i'd be a "goth" because i only ate the black crayons as a child.
Lol badkitty.
I'm glad you all liked the article. Reading it really opened up my eyes.
Well, its not your favourtie colour is it. Deary me.
Make of things what you will.
madbeau
thanks for posting that icon thing...i listed them, but wasnt able to show the picture.
Goth is a term that is often attached to a dark dressed pirson... nope its actualy an poem
GOTH
G-good
O-old
T-tomas
H-hinglesburger
Tomas was a good man who lived his life as a coal worker, he refused to wash his attire so it was all black so his buddys called him GOTH.... dont believe me... you shouldent
goths don't where pink. my fav. color's black and i'm going to keep wearing it till something darker comes along, mmmmwwwaahhhaaa!!!!!!
i'm sure no one will read this lonely post at the bottom of the list, but i gotta toss in my two bits here.
it would seem to me that many (too many) people today define a lifestyle visually - what a person wears, what kind of tattoos they have, what their hair looks like - rather than in terms defining/exploring the REASON behind it all. There was a reason that bacavers (anyone remeber that term?) began, and it had nothing to do with fashion. just two decades ago, it was VERY different to be goth. Now there's a store in the mall.
it reminds me of a comic i saw once: one panel of these three punks sitting on some stairs, watching a businessman go by. All three punks have mohawks, cross earrings, boots, checkered knickers. the caption is one of the punks saying to the businessman with disgust, "conformist."
i certainly am not bemoaning the proliferation of all things goth - i'm the first to agree that the more hot chicks in black eyeliner and combat boots the better. i'm just pointing out that the discussion seems to have mostly revolved around the external, rather than the actual reason for it all. and that's not all that strange; we are taught to categorize people in visual terms. ok, i'll stop before i go off the handle. *but i will add that the mainstream has been appropriating lifestyles from the fringe for some time now - it's becoming a proven way of making an easy buck, and is one of the main tenets of postmodernism. that's why i hate 'pomo'. the film 'hype' is a good example of this in relation to the grunge scene.
what used to get your ass kicked (and needed to be special ordered from london, or sewn by hand ;) is now in people magazine! hey, that's progress for you.
for me, i lean towards goth because the music, the darkness, even the fasion, help me. somehow, it helps.
i would say then, that the fashion side of it all is simply the physical stamp of the battle going on inside.
---but it does look cool, doesn't it? ;)
ooops. gee wiz, no matter how many times i check my spelling, i always screw it up. stoopid. 'batcaver'. there i did it.
goth is a term that people give to those interested in the darker side. they give this lable to us who wear the dark clothing and have an interest in death and the darker aspect of things.
Biily, that was hiliarious!!!
As for me..
How can you describe the unseen void
that is The Abyss?
That primal rendering of matter and energy of lost souls?
That constant Darkness that envelops all who're near?
That black reflection that is the essence of your own self?
No, for it is a feeling felt by none but yourself.
Alone.
Very good Semper it's always in the visual.
I think I would be hated and called poser by a lot of people here since I'm always in jeans and sports shoes.
Hahahaha!
if you need to ask you'll never know,
your either goth or your not
Heh who said Goths dont wear pink....You should try some of the clubs I go to...
Where the hell does the sterotype Goths are not happy come from anyway....Every Goth I know are happy, well most of the time anyway.
Lol I know I was kidding but I know how certain people think as well hahah:)
billy the just, your response was clever and amusing ,It put a smile on my face. Around these parts "goth" is also described as "granola" and basically people peg by the looks of first impression (if you are wearing bondage pants and dark eye shadow , LOL) I dont agree but thats just the way it is.
I agree *points up* i mean, goth IS kind of a stereotype. It just really depends on who you are and what personal choices you make.
I always thought that you could define a goth through the dark clothing (leathers etc) and the music (electronica, EBM and industrial).
( goth) a style of rock music derived from punk, typically with apocalyptic or mystical lyrics. • a member of a subculture favoring black clothing, white and black makeup, and goth music.
I am not goth.......just darker then most.
hi, i don't think anyone should try to define 'goth'
'goth' is what you make it , its just a pathetic little stereotype people who arnt scene made for us, i think if you were to try and define goth, it would take a hell of a lot of time , to explain to people, about industrial,new romantics, mainstream, black wiccan, albino goth, and all the other 'types' of goth there is!!!!!
thats like trying to define 'normal!'
people please feel free to argue, but that tis just my opinion xxxxxxxx
To me Goth are the less desirables or misunderstood. We often are hurt by life and those in it more than what would be considered typical...I myself have lived through several events that people with less heart would let it consume them instead of using your empathy and understanding of true pain to help lessen that pain on others. It is not about the black clothes, leather, fishnets and hair gel...it is quite nearly the loss of one's soul...!!!
"goth" Has become nothing more than a fashion statement now. Just visit ur local wal mart and you'll see what I mean.
I immediatly think of the folk that had a good go with the Roman's as did the Scottish folk we managed 3 invasion's and they were here only 50 years then ended up building a dam wall across the country to keep us at bay unlike england who had 450 years of occupation .....
But in this new world i would define it as anyone differant that is has been labelled from people that are shallow and are wrapped up on thier own little world with a closed mind ...........
Yes often seen as someone different.
But is it being goth is different nowadays?
Just look at most ''goths'' they look all the same,so what's individual in them?
And one of the reasons why goths are disliked is cause most of them are snobs themselves.
They blame others for labelling them,yet they still label others and hate those that aren't like them.
Forget the stereotyping..... Goth is a lifestyle and train of thought. in one word Goth is Non-conformative.... meaning they do not live by the general publics views on most things. I am somewhat Goth but not because I wear black all the time (Which I do) but because I believe in a simple phrase...... "To hell with the mainstream!!!"
Goth itself is a bit of a rather broad topic. Be it music, historical, fashion, life style, or art. In my opinion, there is no set definition as to what Goth is or isn’t, it is what each person feels it should be at the time. How would you define the word art? Or even the word music?
my defanition of goth would be expressing your creativity
Goth would be state of mind in witch you see the truth and discover it.
Yeah, deathnitegrl, i know what you mean about the jeans... the girl at my local video store couldn't believe i was wearing blue levis the other day. i told her not to worry, my heart was still black! hehe.
i also wanto to say bravo to everyone for keeping a cool attitude with this discussion. there was a time when far too many had a 'more goth than thou' attitude, as though such a thing could be measured. and it sucked, because me and my few friends had the feeling that we were once again on the fringe, in a kind of limbo... so your open mindedness is appreciated.
and i'll add one more tidbit, something i wrote a while back (i hope i didn't already post this - going mad is a pain sometimes):
did you know that there are goths in hawaii? it's cool. i lived there for a while. and there are two broad types there: those who shun the light and haunt the night, and those who in every way are goth, but have fun in the sun and are really tan. it seems it's related to the bloodlines, and the fact that locals are tan no matter how much sun they get. so why not just go surfing. for anyone who is not terrified of that firey ball in the sky, hawaii is surprisingly cool for goth types. it is a beautiful sight to see someone's eyeliner smearing down their face while riding a black and purple board on a big wave. i won't mention the rainbows and dolphins. wait, i just did.
night surfing is so very fun, what with the black water and the feeling that something big with sharp teeth is swimming around under you, watching, waiting, hey - just like in real life.
I would love that I like the sea and warm wetear a lot!
its whatever u want it to be if ur got hur goth if ur not ur not
Wow... this is a question i havent heard before in my life. Goth... its an attitude or an lifestyle, it can make people whatever they want them to be and it isnt something to obsess over but it is also not a thing to take lightly. People have names which are stupid but whatever, its best just to go away from it all.
I would like to state right now that there is a difference between someone who calls themselves goth and goes around bemoaning their life and someone who simply sees and accepts the darker things, and perhaps finds beauty in the dark.
Mall goth vs Poetic goth I suppose. Just try to be yourself. If yourself wears black and heavy eyeliner, then so be it. You're all so sexy. Goth boys and girls for all!
Good God. While I read and appreciated the post that Lord Vespertillo offered to explain the “goth culture” I couldn’t help but be struck by the reductionist argument offered by the author of that article, Azhrarn. I think he may have some interesting information in there, but one has to trust his sources are correct as he offers no citations as to where he received his information.
What concerns me is that his article seems to turn on a misunderstanding of the Apollonian/Dionysian split; most heavily discussed and explained by Nietzsche. The problematic issue is that Azhrarn throws in just enough “key words” to make his explanation seem correct, but it doesn’t accurately reflect either side of this “cultural personality split”. Also, this binary dynamic can be applied to ANY two sides of an “issue” such as male/female relations; This author just transported the idea onto “goth subculture”.
Nietzsche wrote in reactionary response to the period known as the French Enlightenment. He thought everything was getting too cold…too analytical and it removed us from a very important part of who we are as human beings. Michel Foucault later carried this fascinating idea further when discussing the origins of medicine and law that we tend to “criminalize” madness and have thus given license to remove the most creative members of our society, by labeling them as undesirables because they do not operate in the realm of “normal.”
At first Nietzsche played along with the government; He played his part in defending Prussian culture, but he soon realized that the military foundation of the German Empire destroyed all culture. At this time, he defined philology in terms of a 'philosophical' aim at cultural unity. But the actual philologists destroyed their subject by reconstructing details without any overall vision; in response to their lack of cultural passion Nietzsche turned his back on professional philology. This is clear in the 'philosophical' (i.e. 'musical') shift in his philological work on Die Geburt der Tragödie. Here he made a distinction between Socratic or ironical science, artificial or lying science, and Apollonian/Dionysian or tragical science. Socrates' ironic appeal for a truth that makes people happy served as a model for the optimistic search for knowledge in modern science. (The Enlightenment)
The first step in overcoming this one-sided conception of science was to recognize earthly suffering. By creating artificial representations, ('Apollonian') science would be able to conceal unbearable truths. The second step was to see what lay behind this concealment. The tragic combination of heroic Apollonian illusions and self-abandoning Dionysian wisdom offered a two-sided alternative allowing for organization of the chaos within oneself without neutralizing its 'musical' moving force.
Nietzsche's aim in the writing of Birth of Tragedy was to demonstrate how art and society function in relation to ancient Greek aesthetics and was heavily influenced by Schopenhauer's metaphysics. He draws much of his discussion, admittedly, from Schopenhauer's philosophy of the Will as well as his views on music and art as representations of this Will. Nietzsche agrees that music, in particular, represents the world better than all the other art forms because of its link directly to the Will and emotions (Young 20-21). To describe how art represents the will, Nietzsche divides art into two opposing forces: Apollonian, or the intellectual and rational aspects of art, and Dionysian, the emotion, intoxication, and tragic element of art. These two forces blend in different ways to provide different levels and categories of art. The balance between the two is a constant struggle, but Nietzsche suggests that there is more of a need for Dionysian influences in the world of art.
The Dionysian side is one of succumbing to emotions and allowing oneself to be caught up or intoxicated in art, and ultimately, THE REALITY OF THE WORLD. The Apollonian side is one of intellect and man-made influence - what Nietzsche calls ILLUSIONS,DREAMS AND DISTRACTIONS (Nietzsche 27). These two characteristics constantly influence one another, in the development of art over time. Their influence waxes and wanes on each other, but Nietzsche claims the need for more of an influence from the Dionysian aspect in his time, in order to have a more balanced art and, consequently, life.
Nietzsche, in claiming that the world needs more of a Dionysian influence in the world, admits that it cannot be pure. Metaphysically, it is impossible without dying. To perceive something means that one takes it into Apollonian consideration. Nietzsche also describes here - the total submission to death. The Dionysian life cannot exist because it goes towards death, THIS is the reason it inspires tragedy.
Azhrarn’s article is admittedly an interesting take on the idea, but he makes the common error of assuming that in the A/D split, the Apollonian “side” is the favored of the two, when in fact, Nietzsche makes it quite clear that reliance on science and reason alone is central cause of the decline of Western civilization, and that BOTH forces must be present and balanced; and that in fact, Western civilization is lacking adequate Dionysian influence.
So the question remains, what are “Goths”? Whatever you, or anyone else says they are.
Nietzsche, Friedrich. The Birth of Tragedy & The Genealogy of Morals. Trans. Francis Golffing. New York: Doubleday. 1956.
Young, Julian. Nietzsche's Philosophy of Art. New York: Cambridge, 1992.
the definition of Gothic as it was Originally ment:
Gothic Goth"ic, n.
1.Of or relating to the Goths or their language.
b. Germanic; Teutonic.
2. Of or relating to the Middle Ages; medieval.
3.
a. Of or relating to an architectural style prevalent in western Europe from the 12th through the 15th century and characterized by pointed arches, rib vaulting, and a developing emphasis on verticality and the impression of height.
b. Of or relating to an architectural style derived from medieval Gothic.
4. Of or relating to painting, sculpture, or other art forms prevalent in northern Europe from the 12th through the 15th century.
5. often gothic Of or relating to a style of fiction that emphasizes the grotesque, mysterious, and desolate.
What the 90's did for the meaning:
Teen definition- To some, goth is a style of dress; to others it's a lifestyle. Either way, the gothic look involves very black clothing and very white makeup with edgy, tough accessories, Welcome to the Gen.X group. Former Prime example of classic gothic style: Marilyn Mansion so says the 90's
What I see goth to be:
There really is no exact definition of goth, its just how people interpret it that matters, I really don't think anyone could define goth in a way all goths would agree with, or even respect. It's very personal. I consider someone goth if they're intelligent, enjoy romantic/gothic literature and poetry, seek truth where others might blindly follow the crowd, and have understanding for the orginal meaning of the word.
I don't think to be goth you have to wear black velvet head to toe every day or to follow what the 90's did for the meaning. but I think appearance does have something to do with it. For me some of its about, understanding and accepting the darker aspects of life. I do like the darkness, I do like dark clothes, but I own and where lots of colors, I am pale but thats because I don't go outside much. i've come to accept these things as part of my life, There is beauty in it, when you know and understand where gothic life came from and don't just get trapped in where it is.
i go around in black, wear extremely heavy eyeliner, and write heartbroken/morbid poetry, but im not really goth. i listen to goth rock occasionally, but i am not a goth. i like the style that people would call "gothic", but this doesnt make me a goth.
i actually call myself a neethie just for the hell of it (nerd/geek/goth/hippie) and because labels are stupid and dont do anything for us.
so i am a proud neethie
NEETHIES UNITE!
ok now i just sound stupid
I can get away with having many titles.
But someone in their late 40's calling themselves Goth? That's just too funny and strange even to type about.
Not to mention use.
i have always defined Goth as part of a larger movement in history. History moves like a sine wave swinging back and forth between a romantic period and realistic period. In Voltaire's book, What is Goth?, he claims that the word "Goth" was first used during the neo-classical period in the Renaissance.
In particular, new churches were built to reflect the ancient Rome. The churches built in the dark ages were considered "gothic" or barbaric or of the Germanic hordes not of the Romans (the civilized folk).
After the Renaissance and Age of Reason, lierature and thought turned towards the romantic (1790-1830). During this time, the authors wrote on themes of violence, passion, the supernatural, and the dark. Frankenstein is a good example of this period.
Then literature went back to realism: Dickens, Dostoyevsky, Tolstoy
At the end of the century to about World War I, there was another romantic movement or the decadent period. Stoker's Dracula was written during this period.
Anyway, it seems we are in another romantic period from about 1980 until 2020 then the mood will swing back to realism.
i was felt the goths were a subset of the romantic genre. If you look back in history, during these romantic periods, you will always find people using tarot cards, ouija boards, drinking absinthe, snorting coke - looking into the dark side and pushing society's limits.
Goth is indeed a subculture..
Even according to the dictionary, and history, it began a while back. Goths were people who took pleasure in things dark, and what everyone else would find disgusting and hideous. Usually have a taste in literature and art.
Goths also concidered barbarians, as most were indeed barbairian like in the past.
Goth's meaning has changed over the years, and somewhat strayed from its way.. Though the often clothes they would wear.. from Hottopic as an example, most people don't really like, and would concider you an outkast pretty much if you do. I kno this doesn't apply to everyone, but this is how I have learned it in my time of searching for the answer.
It's like any other stereo-type. You can look like a Goth but act totally different. I don't consider myself a goth either... thats just not me. A goth i think is somewhere near punk but waaaaaaay past it. They wear more black and do the whole make-up thing or listen to the sceam-o. I know that's not a very good definition but really u are defined by your likes and dislikes. I dont know.
Does it really matter what people define as GOTH? What's the point?
I know I'm a metalhead - but look at the music I listen too! It would be blatantly obvious to anyone. But does that really matter? Does it further your life, or your views on the world?
I personally couldn't give a monkey's arsehole.
I know this sounds hypocritic, but GOTH is one of those things that everyone seems to have their own views of. For example:
Mr X: "Hey there, Mrs Y, what music you like?"
Mrs Y: "Slipknot and Korn."
Randomer: "GOTH!!!"
Everyone seems to think they are gothic when they are clearly not. I was talking to an emo girl last night and she called herself a goth and I was thinking: "What the fuck is gothic about someone with drainpipes and an emo haircut?"
Only the people that are TRULY gothic seem to know what they are talking about. And they seem to be the ones least bothered by all this shit.
They are too busy running from the little black p/u.
Uhh, right, like You never went 'Goth Hunting!'
jk, :O
Lol I don't even label myself as goth I have a name that my parents gave me and that is not goth:)
I don't see any reason why I should label myself,if I did I would draw a tattoo on my forehead -_-
The definitions of goth are as plentiful as there are ants (umm...what a crappy metafor...). Goth means different things fordifferent people; some might choose to adopt the stereotypic "goth-style" (black, lace, heavy make up etc.) to rebel against their parents, for others goth means the music genre that goes by the same name and for some it's a life style on whatever deep philosophical level that appeals to them. So the question "what's goth" might not be a relevant question, it depends on what forum and basic concept it is discussed.
goth as we know comes from the word gothic which was a period in the 1800's and it is a style of buidings like churches the arched windows and the stone carvings of the creatures set around the church, its also a style of writing take edgar allan poe for example in my opinion the best gothic novelist of his time many horror and terror. the way people dressed in the period was in black like black suits: white shirts, black jacket, black trossers and a black top hat 'goth' is really no more than a lable that we the modern people going back a few years here have made up wareing black. so theres no real suck thing as a 'goth' its just the name or lable if you please that we have been given.
this is the way i see it anyhow.
Goth is sumthing that is different in many different countries.
Ville Valo even sed this.
In Germany it is like a cult, in Britain it is like having the plague (every1 hates u), in America it's often a fashion staement and in Finland it's the way of life.
define goth! you simply cant without being stereotypical.............par exemple, black clothes. lolz
I think your born that way you don't become something by what you wear or to fit in with fads.It is about being comfortable with who you are no matter how much people stare.
"goth" is just what ppl use to try to single out the ppl who aren't what ppl define as "normal". if you aren't like everybody else you are a freak so they find one or two things to pinpoint a certain aspect of a minority group.( such as wearing black)/ ppl use it to try to make one group of ppl feel inferior. just be yourself and you will be cool.
I can’t but speak for my self with “Goth” it is really just a state of mind. If you want to take it to an altogether different perspective then you could say “Goth” is exploitation. An exploitation of a fashionable alienation by utilizing fear in the unknown by dwelling in the Macomb aspect of life. So again Goth = exploitation of fear.
Goth is a way of being, a mental state. It just happens to be a darker way of being.
A real goth is a person under a dangerous amount of deppression and will try to relive there pain by cutting themselves, cutting your wrist makes you feel better and watching someone you really care about do it, it makes you feel Divine and it seduces you....
Goth's DoN"T cut their wrists!
The depressed people do!!
Hey, get you facts straight!!
No wonder why certain goths are hated and misunderstood,the pity is that cause it's for certain ''goths'' that the rest get the bad labells.
Goth to me is an additude. Waering black and what not is just the style for it. Yes I dress in black and am morbid. but I think that you could dress in white and be goth its all in how you act.
i sure as hell know what it is not goth it not the way you dress or the way you act like around here you where a lil black and they call you goth but there not they think they are cuz oh they where black and they want to cut their selfd let them cuz there still not goth goth is a state a being it is mind over matter thing
does black mean goth?
No.
does depressed mean Goth?
No.
Does listening to rock music mean goth?
No.
Goth is deeper than any of it.
and does not apply to any1 thing or combination of things.
It is undifinable in the languages i know.
1 word describes Goth and that word is Goth.
Ghouse that is freakin offensive to myself as a Goth.
It aint just Goths who cut themselves and self harm, people in every walk of life do this...ITS CALLED DEPRESSION NOT GOTHISM....
Ghouse,
are you uni-polar or bi-polar?
maybe you should see a psychiatrists and stop making such small-minded comments about goths.
Very true.
But apart from the gothic person there is gothic building,literatue,art...
As for person I would feel it's all in the inside but like it was said before still people see the visual.
Of course Goths can be in their 40's.....No matter what you think Goth is...The Goth culture derives from the late 70's. Early 80's so someone who was a late teenager then would now be in their 40's
personally when i think of goth i think of the medevil times. now a days goth means that "you don't know pain im going up in my room to worship the dark lord" and really people that accept labels are true losers that have no life and want to be considered something special.
people consider me goth.
I WEAR HOT PINK
AND I LOVE TO WEAR
JEANS!!
im not your stereotypical "goth"
im just individual and i like to
dress in different styles.
xxx
ashley