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It became clear to me that people often have a self conceived perception about the spiritual or metaphysical world and the intentions of those within it.

The idea seems to be that preparation and knowledge will be good enough protection and that their deity or guardian has no other intention than watching out for them.

Does this mean that most people believe that concepts like greed or a thirst for power end when we begin talking about the other realms? I recall so many different tales of ancient gods and almost all of them involved the same drama, politics and jockeying for power that we see in the physical world. Wasn't Osiris plotted against and murdered by his own brother? Wasn't Parvati born out of the deceit of Shakti over Shiva? Didn't the judeo/christian god claim to be a jealous god? These are all very human emotions and temperments but they seem to continue in the spiritual world.

Whether or not there is absolute truth in these legends, it would seem an ample warning to me that the afterlife, the metaphysical world, and even the gods and goddesses that some may worship, are just as frought with drama, deceit, jealousy and politics as the physical world. This makes me wonder just how someone could expect to ask a deity or god for advice or protection without worrying that they might become the tool of that deity for it's own selfish purpose.

I absolutely agree with this thread in that I feel that organized religion of anykind is simply that...a way for those "dieties"to use us in thier bitter games.
But in the same token I believe that we, as humans, have chosen to put so much stock into those religions and thus thier gods in order to always have a scapegoat. When we were given free will and granted self realization, we were also given the need for self preservation and instinctually that means at all cost.
Thus religion was created so that we (humans) would have a higher power to blame our losses, gains, failures and successes on. When in reality if we could finally look introspectively and see that the fault lies within us...Gods could be seated in seats of unscrutable power, grace, and trust...but as long as man uses them as a scape goat...they will forever be doubted.

I think the similarities in dubious character speak to the notion that man made his gods in his own image as opposed to his gods doing the reverse for him, in my personal outlook.

- D

I agree that the realm of the deites is not anywhere near as quiet and peacefull an many would like to think.

There is just as many issues there as here, and maybe even more.

Wont it be fun to find out?!?!?!?

The after life is a mirror to this world and vice versa. When we die we loss our physical body but we still have the same likes and dislikes, the same craveings for food and drink and so forth I believe this is why so many people when they die donot want to accept it is because they cling to there earthly lusts.......the closest movie that I have seen that potrays the afterlife in a very close reallity is the movie Ghost.

The Wraith

all these diffrent stories of gods and so on were written by man so who really knows what god or the gods are like anyway

Dark Greeting's, All have valid point's but for me I ask my God's/Goddess for thing's but expect no response,as for being involved in their games who know's and i really don't care.If I get what I ask for fine if not I never expected it so no loss.
Dark Blessing's,
KA

First, I will say that I agree with mrd, if I understand correctly, gods were created in the image of and through the imaginations of humans.

The second thing I find interesting about this discussion is the notion of greed. In fact, dont' people just use "gods"? Not only to justify actions, life courses, and behaviors; but it seems to me inherently selfish that a person can feel comfortable and even justified to discount their actions in this world in hopes or belief of a reward in the next. It doesn't seem to matter in many cases how destructive certain actions seem to be if a person believes they will achieve a divine reward for themselves in the "next life".

This strikes me as a hypocritical tenant of several major world religions.

Let's look at this from the outside in...All the issues being listed are human, and have nothing to do with higher realms...As long as everything is humanized, no understand of what is beyond can take place...Step out of the human ego for a moment and understand that things beyond are not similar in any way...Think Pure Energy and expand your thoughts in a non-human manner, if you can...

i think that when you die, you dont go into the Summerland (or Heaven or w/e...) untill you fulfil your goals that you had in life.
and then, a personal belief, i think that when you enter the Summerland, you begin to get youger, like the reverse aging process. and when you have been in Summerland as long as you were on Earth, you are reincarnated...
lol
but that is just something i have thought.

We as Human Beings are here for a purpose to experience mortal life and it would be safe to say that our bodys crave the things we lust such as cigarettes, Food, drink, ect. although there is also a spiritual connection to the things we crave......when we die we take with us the knowledge we gained well in this mortal toil as well as our likes and dislikes, ect. We are energy yes but with a consciousness and intelligence and when we die I feel it would be Il'logical to think that we no longer have likes or dislikes or even addictions or craveings. We are hear to experience everything in a carnal way.

The Wraith

We are all tools and pawns for the god's and goddesses, weither we like it or not. Yes, we still have a choice and free will, but that does not change the fact that we are merely pawns in what appears to be one large chess game.

If there is an afterlife, I would not be surprised in the least if there was 'drama'.

A question for the man a few posts up there who talked about dehumanizing our thought processes to understand what may lie underneath; if we are human, then how can anything come from us that is not completely and utterly human? You speak of humanity as though you have a distaste for your own, as though in order to be better, we must stop being human.

Were you meaning this literally, or were you simply implying the concept of evolution?

Enigma - True that we tend to look to deities from a human perspective but isn't that why most people turn to gods anyway? We look to them as Sevenn said, to solve our problems or offer us solace and reason for the decisions we make. If we are to assume that these higher realms don't function in that way, then why would we expect those of that realm to have any interest whatsoever in what we want or need.

Cancer - true that many of our spiritual prophets have spoken to simplicity and humility as the most valuable tenet in earthly life...but these weren't the gods in question though...in fact, the two prophets you mention weren't gods at all. They also didn't believe in these gods. Jesus felt that any god or spirit but his god was in fact a demon (which would likely be more in support of my argument of their greed or deceitfulness). Jains don't appear to have original deities other than the Vedic or Hindu gods which I've already shown have legends of a very 'human' nature.

Many of the gods and goddesses people pray to (including the judeo-christian god) are looked to as a provider of something. People often pray for for their god to interfere in this world on their behalf. I guess my point is that IF we are able to conceive of a god/goddess or other deity who would step in and solve our problem, then it would seem equally capable that such a being would have it's own motivations and reasons for doing so. It would seem that the legends of the rather human emotions and motivations of these beings would support that.

When engaging in religious debate (especially in regard to Christianity), it is best to provide supporting evidence with any statements you make. The bible is misquoted and misrepresented far too often. Most people make arguments based on false premises.

Christianity is a monotheistic religion. There is no room for secondary gods. Jesus’s entire message is based upon unconditional love. He provides the roadmap to Heaven. I find no evidence in any of his teachings that would lead me to believe that there would be “drama” in Heaven. The characteristics that accompany “drama” and its facilitation would prevent a soul from entering Heaven. If you are aware of a scripture that indicates otherwise, please provide it.

The Buddha did not ascribe to a monotheistic god. However, in both the Pali suttas and the Mahayana sutras, the Buddha does teach the existence of gods (called devas). These devas are heavenly beings that have reached nirvana. These Buddhist devas are very different from Hindu devas. I purposefully did not mention Hindu in my original post. I am of the opinion that it is very difficult to discern truth from modern-day Hindu. The religion has become very convoluded.

While it is true that Jainism does not believe in a centralized omnipotent deity, Jainism does hold that the soul is eternal and that all individuals are responsible for their actions across lifetimes. In this way, those souls that reach enlightenment are god-like.

Taoism breaks down into two subcategories, philosophical belief and religious belief. There is of course some overlap between the two. I was referring to religious Taoism.

The Jade Emperor is the primary god in Taoism. Taoism is polytheistic. There are several other lesser gods.

My study of Taoism is far from complete, however I find no evidence of “drama” in the Taoist afterlife.

Your original post cited Osiris, a god of Egyptian mythology (I am also of the opinion that Hindu has become more like mythology over the ages). There are key differences between mythology and modern-day religion. A common theme that I see represented in most modern-day religion is the purification of the soul and a release of material attachment. It is unreasonable to think that a soul which has attained this state would participate in the types of activities (drama, greed, and jealousy) you have outlined.

Since I am not the biggest fan of organized religion on the Rave, I thought it fair to tell you that the conception of gods and goddess and their human traits are all man's creation. The Higher Being or Beings are not suppose to be in my opinion prone to the same behaviors as we are. They are suppose to be able to rise above petty jealousy and greed. I think that the stories of gods and goddesses that are flawed serve as a type of morality tale. If you do this, you can expect the same result type of thing.

I find one question her and have thought long on this I believe what Cancer has said for I have read what Jesus said and find no where to support anything about him but the deepest love for all mankind..
Wouldnt the Stories of these same Gods/Godesses be infact stories that are man made..
Many cases taken out of context of the orginal stories men tend to chenge things to fit there own values or to make the point that we dont need to have a basic belief in something..
It would be nice in my mind could get around things that are infinate but right now my mind isn't a infinate thing as I believe it will be once I'm no longer living.
I've never read any of the Taoist texts...
So I couldnt say anything about them at all although I should now read it there seems much to be learned from them..
I dont believe in an organized religion simply because it is run by men and they are fallible.....

I sure hope this isn't the case. I don't do drama, I hate it and I hate the think my afterlife is going to be drowned with drama as this life has been.

I think I must agree with KA way up there at the top. If the Gods want dick us around and make us part of there little game, whoopie. I couldnt care less. Im fairly certain that the Gods of all religions are over there having a pissing contest half the time over HAHA I just got a new devotie! Ive got 8 more than you now!....Oh Shit, an entire clan just came to you, damn! Bet you fifty bucks I can get them over here......who gives a rolling rim job what they do? There Gods, what they do is what they do and theres not a damn thing anyone can do to stop them.

It is possible that one only dies and goes on to Heaven or Hell after they fulfilled all there duties here at this stage. On this planet.

well yes those are all true and yes i have thought about the emotional part of religion and why thing are the way they are but we also have to remember that people have changed things over the years and that means we dont really know what is true or what is false except that beliefe is unstopable and that if someone believes in something than that is trueth and it doesnt mean that everyone else is going to agree, but that is why it is what it is, its beliefe not fact or fiction.....

FelixFelix: about the thing on sacrifing their first born it was the pagen who did it, I know cause I study the bible and other scriptures for 17 years and still have all my book research, along with 5 versions of the bible, and cd auxilliairy for bible research, so anyway my point in the view of the christian there is only one God (and not 3 in one, in the original sciptures) his on Jesus is the way to him, so we can serve him, since we were made out of love to serve him, so we are merely a product of love. And there is no after life really according to the orriginal scriptures, the oldest ones I found, so meaning sadly no drama, but of cousre this leaves us wiht drama here, why? Because God as he stated does not interfere to prove we cannot manage without him, and so fare I must agree, we cant.

Jakyna - The first born to which I was referring is the final plague of seven visited upon Egypt when the Pharaoh refused to let Moses lead the people out of Egypt. It was not a pagan sacrifice but a "plague of god".


rivers turned to blood
frogs
lice
flies
diseased livestock
festering boils
fiery hail
locusts
darkness
death of the firstborn

One can't help but think that if that was how god goes about convincing a pharaoh to make a decision, that this god might have a bit of a flair for the dramatic.

Dferent religins have dirent idea of life after death, as we all know catolics and otodox have allmost the saim thing, haven -hell.. asians have Budda and reencarnation, usama beladen have Islam,
Alah and his profesi Muhamed with there idea that the men after death will get in a palas with 1001 vergins girls or in a big hole with fire... but the ideer is that ich of them are right and wrong at the same time... it all depends on person if it dont belive he will get nowhere he just will end his way of life...
i belive in energi, like in the general law if univers that says: if something get out from something than it seternlly will get in something... ini eani from chiainees

I am not sure what stand to take on this so I will just say there are many ideas about afterlife and I believe that it will be what you make it or believe it to be. All Religions couldn`t have gotten it wrong and not all could have gotten it right. I guess we will see.

im a catholic, so i beleive in life after death, many religions beleive in reincarnations aswell, or being reborn means havin ur soul cleansed and to start over a fresh new life

If indeed the afterlife is how some describe it, I do not think we have anything to worry about. I mean, all those worries will dissapear at that time.

Okay I am putting my neck on the line here but, I was a Jehovah's witness and true we do not beleive in trinity cause it don't exist since as stated God was first and He made his son so therefore Jesus is second and below God.
As for the play of the first born its the pharoe own's fault since he threat to kill all the first born of the hebrew and God just sned out a reply using Moïse saying: this shall be your own , so by it the play is the pharo's fault not God since he was the one who send it first. So I am sorry and I mean no offence but I do not know about other belef but about the bible and its originalk scripture I did study them and do possess some auxilliaries and reference books to do all my researches that I did over the years, I have done them since I was 17 and I am 35 so I might say I know a bit, plsu I do have cds for more reseach if needed and I may be in trouble but I beleive in freedom of speach, sorry if I sound rude.

Well, I am currently reading up on and learning all the cool stuff in Taoism. No drama...lots of balance and acceptance.
As for all the human qualitiies named upon gods...the only thing I can say is...perhaps we placed them there to better relate to these beings...should they exhist.
I really dont think we could comprehend/fathom the entirety of such beings. Besides...would we really understand such beings if they actually "spoke" to us?
I think I'll stick with the elements and tangible spheres of energy. I do agree with the whole drama thing, but only because we put it there, and I want no part in it.

Wow this has became one hell of a debate.
I do believe that much drama goes on in different realms just as it does here. They all have problems to work out. Lessons to learn. And in any place were souls reside there will be drama. The most peaceful realm i can think would have to be the fairy realm.
I do believe though that we all have watchers/protectors. They do as they're supposed to. Protect us. But they also have other things to do. They're there when we need them. But they're not by our side 24 hours a day. But i've had numorous expieriances with my protector and firmly believe that they do care about us. Or they wouldn't be our protectors.
Just my beliefs and opinions.
-MixedBlood-

Jakyna - so because someone threatened God's people, it makes it ok to respond with vengeance...again I say that is a very human response and not the best example I've seen of rising above the petty acts of man. And using the plagues in general instead of just removing his people from harm. Tell me that 10 plagues isn't a dramatic move that comes across more than a little egotistical.

Lilith - Of course your right that all of these qualities may in fact just be a form of anthropomorphism but then if we couldn't hope to understand a deity, what makes us think that they'd be interested in helping us win a race or hold someone to their word or fall in love as we often pray or cast spells with their assistance. It just seems that we want it both ways. An all powerful being that is supposed to be above the petty acts of mankind but genuinely interested in our short term happiness and the fulfillment of our desires.

Mixedblood - These protectors you mention...what is their motivation for watching over us? Why is that their job? Who decides that something protects or does harm? It sounds like these are some kind of slave if they have no other interest than to help us. No freedom of choice.

FelixFelix: the pharo was ask with each plaie to let them go but he refuse, and was warn before each of the consequences of his choice, its as if your child is held as a slave prisoner and you ask to him or her to be release, you would be in your right to say unless they release the child punishment will come, the child is yours and they are abusing and hurting it so its Your right to take it bakc in any way necessairy, and God in that matter, use his right over the lements and forces of Earth, he was in title to use and in his right since he warn them and send out more then once like you stated 10 play showing he was patien enought, personnaly after the second I would not have ask the poeple politly I would have use my streinght and powers but I am human so imperfect, anyway, he warn, and waited, so it was a last resort and the play were not send out for fun but to prove he could do it since pharo refuse to let the poeple go and even was more crule and provoc God , saying he did not know him and that God could not do anything against the gods of egypt, so thats why it was use in almsot each play one of the egytien god to moke them, but thats out of the subject, so anyway God would have stop as soon as his poeple was free, just as you would stop if your child was free, its only a logical course of action.

Felix- Don't we..as humans..have a tendancy to want things both ways......it's quite a common pattern in our history. As for the asking of assistance. Who's to say these beings weren't "made-up" as it were, so that we had a focus for things. Instead of using stone or tree as a focal point and keeping them as they are...just a tree or a stone. We give them human like properties (dryads...gargoyles) and ask these "spirits" for guidance or help.....in reality we have just made a being apart from our situation...yet connected to us in a worldly manner. So that we can then ask these "spirits or beings" for help.
We take our connection to the universe in general, seperate it from ourselves and anthropomorphize it. When we are asking for help we are really attempting to tap into our own divine or universal nature.
Just a thought.....

A comment at the plague thing. It isn't a question of whether or not God had a right to free his children - that is irrelevant. The point for that example is that God could have used ANY means possible because he is God. He could have just made them appear somewhere else, frozen all the egyptians while they walked out, replaced the pharoah, given them wings, given them a spaceship, - anything at all. Instead he chose a very flashy flamboyant testosteroneish (woohoo new words), flexing of his muscle to show off while freeing them. That, Felix is saying, is a very human trait. Posting this for clarity, I have no opinion to share on that example.

For the rest - Perhaps all dieties in religions have such human tendancies because it is the only way we can comprehend them? I simply present this as a countpoint - If any of them were true, and one of the gods were real (or multiple depending on the religion), and assuming they were truly a benevolent diety void of egotism and jealousy - would they have any need to correct our very human portrayals of them?

Vulash - BAM! Thank you! That is my whole point of this thread. You're analysis of my position was dead on.

Now my point isn't directed specifically at the judeo christian god but gods and deities in general. If we are to believe any of our myths or histories of these beings (one or all) then we should really take a look at how we have decided to portray them. In almost every legend of a god or goddess, these beings have been selfish, or deceitful or 'testoneroneish' and egotistical. That is not exactly the type of being that you want to go asking for favors all the time. In fact, that seems like the being to avoid and hope it's interests are elsewhere for your own safety. It doesn't seem like the kinds of places one wants to end up in where you'd find yourself even more at the whim of something supernatural and far more powerful than yourself.

Now Lilith - I agree that a lot of this is likely athropromorphisizing. And your point may be totally valid that they didn't actually exist at all and were more or less a focus or fetish for contacting your inner divinity. But if one acknowledges that (and that would be heavily debated), then praying to it still a little weird if you realize your not really praying to who you say you are.

Okay maybe I'm confusing this but I think the origional thread was about the harshness of the god/s, goddess we pray to for help. I think perhaps the harsh stories are also in place to try and get us to rely on ourselves more. That's why we're supposed to have free will, I hope.
I've always suspected the scary parts were exaggerated to impress us. Like lots of parents do with their children to make them learn the lesson better/faster.

Felix darlin your forum threads are awsome, lol. Usually a bit out of my league, but an awsome read none the less.

That is one thing I have never understood about believing in a "higher power." If they are truely as all mighty as people make them out to be then why is this world going to shit (for lack of a better phrase). I can't even bring myself to watch the news anymore because it just gets more and more saddening every time. Quoting a very sappy movie here, but I love the line and find it a bit fitting for my post. "Without suffering there would be no compassion.............'Yeah, well tell that to those who suffer.'" If these so called gods have so much power then they could have avoided every tragedy that happened. For them to not do that makes them like us one of two ways. Either they have the power and simply chose not to use it........or they never had the power to do it in the first place.

all this theory and conjecture is wonderful, but you all are missing the point: none of you will ever know until you pass from this plane of exsistence and move on to the next. as far as i can tell, none of you have done that and have come back to tell the rest.

sgtsneaky,

There are some who hold to a theory of reincarnation which states, in their belief, that it is possible to recover past life memories and subsequent identities.

Psychic mediums do claim communication with post-life event soul/spirits.

One other potentiality, might be astral travel, since it is theoretically a place of non-time and space.

I really don't think anyone has missed that point. The point of posting a thread is to get the view of others.....if you didn't expect that then there wouldn't be much point in making a thread in the first place.

Nobody said that they are an expert and know for a fact that this is the way that it is.........if that's the only kind of posting that were allowed in the forum threads then nobody would have anything to say about most of the threads.

Good day.

i stand corrected. i was refering to the fact that it seems that none of us on this thread has crossed over and came back to enlighten the rest of us as to weither the GODS are apolitical or have the same troubles as we do

Well, the interperatation of 'the gods' can be quite subjective, dependant upon your current view of the cosmological heirarchy at the time of interaction with them.

I am just a lowly grunt in the army. I never paid much attention to history back in high school those many many years ago. I suppose that now I should have actually stayed in class instead of corrupting my mind with mood altering drugs.

Well, to be frank, nothing I learned in school had anything to do with metaphysics. Even the religious studies curriculum was limited to examining 'holy' texts.

I agree with you. And my answer to your querie...
It is about trust. You must trust the beings you may live among one day, even though to deceive yourself would be only too easy.

That is very true though most people have a faith just for that reason because if they have faith it makes them feel secure

Faith is just another way of putting trust to use. Faith is trust without sight. Blind faith could be the same as trust. You trust in things you can see and feel. But have faith in those that can not be seen or felt. Placing the fallable attributes of humanity on supposed dieties of perfection is ridiculous. You would be trying to place trust on things that can only be followed through faith. The problems of humanity are removed in the afterlife as depicted through a good percent of the multitude of religions. The burdens and shackles removed once crossed over. Granted these are words of men by pure interpretation. So what is the real truth of the matter. It is all based on faith. Following without seeing or feeling.

that was exceptionally well put :)

the gods where created by humans to control less inteligent humans and they where based on humans so that they could be understood easier,
i personnally do not believe that the real dietys are at all understood and i do not believe they are there to look after you but are there to look after your loved ones in your time of need,


that is only my opinion on the matter, and i do not want anyone to be offended, by my saying i do not believe that any religion has understood god correctly yet

ContactZero - For sure, one can say that much of organized religion (especially Eurocentric ones like Roman Catholicism) have been abused in order to keep those in power in power while those 'underfoot' wait for something better in the next life. But I don't believe that those same self serving people would strive to make God or gods so human since that removes mystery and therefore power.

Remember that in those dark times of inquisition and feudal abuse of the church, having a bible in any language but Latin was forbidden, thus making it unlikely that anyone of base, common or popular origin would ever be able to read the bible for themselves.

But in all things there is a bit of truth and I admit that it's just as likely that we ascribed many human characteristics onto deities in order for us to understand them or be more comfortable with their power and influence. Which simply translates to how little we do understand them and how unlikely we would be to gain their interest, favor, or help.

I should point out that we're overlooking one aspect of my original post...that of the 'dearly departed'.

We often say that upon death, we rise above the petty things in life...but it would seem that we have just as many tales of those trapped by their emotions or chained to their memories and loved ones. It seems a bit of a mixed bag in fact as to whether the spirit world is in fact a higher state of being or whether its implication is that of tortured souls wandering the planet.

Spiritism seems to portray that almost anyone is accessable to the right medium and that would imply that these spirits are available and interested in our lives...but that's in stark contrast to the idea that death brings peace and the ability to move past the world of the living.

Alot of good info...shit it took a long time 2 read....but my idea is...U get what U put into it..karma!! and enviorment set's the stage for life..."There are many road's to travel...witch one did U chosse????

Here's a good thread to *bump* back to the first page.

I guess it all depends on your beliefs. I am of the belief that there is no 'drama' on the other side. I'd like to keep thinking that.

all religions were created by humans.. so isnt it natural that they have human nature as part of themselves?

Whether we create gods or gods create us is hardly relevant. in the spirit realm, only spirit is real - so if you create or invoke a spirit, it is still real on the spirit plane. Humans are capeable of good as well as evil - and the concept of guardian and protector is not entirely alien to us. so if we create or invoke a spirit guardian/ god of protection, it will protect and guard us.

Karnstein - are you saying that because we invoke a spirit, we've possibly created that spirit for our invocation? What about the idea that when you invoke the spirit of a dead relative or friend...are they not the real spirit of that deceased? If they are, what are they doing mixing it up on the physical plane...they're supposed to have moved beyond that and recognized that physical matters are unimportant. That's what we all hope anyway right? So if our dead friends and relatives haven't moved on enough to learn to ignore us, then what does that mean for us? By that same principle, we'll be caught up in the lives and goings on of our relations still living and we won't really be able to rise above all of that petty living drama if we're still attached to it after death (answering the calls of mediums and prayers).

This is why I switched to Discordianism. I dont have to be balanced, righteous, or even a good person. So long as I do right by my goddess, I get to go to the Elesian Fields, a wonderful place where I can relax and hang out with like minded fellows for eternity.

And have raunchy sex with all manner of fantastical beings.

Woohah!

Personally, reading through all the comments responding to the topic, I mostly agree with Cancer..
I believe in God, I'm Christain
Jesus spoke of undying love, free of all earthly...hm, I can't think of the world..
earthly needs..
I believe the afterlife will be completely different than the one we live in..
that we will be stripped of a human forms and only live in spirit
and if you dont have our human needs and materialist additudes and so on and so forth..
I dont think its possible for there to be drama in the afterlife, there would be no need..
no conflict..
just undying love for everyone and everything

I'm not a great speaker, so this isn't the best written opinion on this page..
but i tried, and its what i believe, no matter how jumbled it was written down on this page
=D

well if you go by the christan bible it says that god made us in his image and gave us the gift of choosing for our selves, dont know if that makes any sense but thats what ive got

Do you folks then not believe in spiritism or do you believe that these spirits that are summoned aren't really the spirits they claim to be?

Are all those who claim to speak to the dead charlatans? If not, why are these dead people still here, still interested in the living world, and still interested in us?

I just do not see how there could or would be any drama in the hereafter yet that is just an opinon

i am of a mind that organized religion is nothing more than someones sad attempt to justify their own existence with som need of purpose. why does their have to be perpose, just be. live and do what you will, make that the justification of your existance , the fact that you lived fully and the way you wanted to. if you do that no god or gods or any other being can ever tell you that you wasted your life or didnt live "right"

it is quite possible that when we summon the spirit of someone dearly departed, we are not really bringing them back from the afterlife, but creating a facsimile of them from our memories - a sort of artificial inteligence so to speak. not the spirit of the departed, but a copy. just a thought.

Life, much like the spiritual realm is dualistic in nature, even to the point where duality is not immune to its own sets of laws.

Regarding drama in the afterlife, I wouldn't so much call it "drama" as I would "sandbox squabbles". When looking in religious texts, there are even said squabbles amongst the gods themselves, thus reflecting life itself.

Personally, I regard the concepts thereof as a mere manifestation of one own's perception. If you don't find drama in the afterlife, you're part of the cycle, and thus, ignorance becomes bliss. If you do find drama you're either attempting to break free of the cycle, have already broken free, or are part of the problem. Sometimes all 4 options are the case, much in the same way that none of the 4 can also be the case.

Hence, if this were not the case, duality itself would cease to exist.

This is a topic that can be answered in any way one sees fit since after all belief is very likely the most personal thing one can have. Even with organized religion, whether you take the whole of it and choose to believe it all or whether you choose pieces of it like a religious buffet, or whether you choose to create your own and get your own followers, the choice of what to believe or not is yours alone.

That being said, my intent of this thread is to focus on some of the dogma that has permeated a great many of organized beliefs. Spiritism, religion, magic, etc have all taken on a certain amount of dogma in their more widely accepted forms. People often choose these beliefs and accept them with their dogma as truth. But there is a certain amount of duality (as the previous poster mentioned) that comes with those beliefs.

In many if not most of those cases, we believe that the spirits, or gods are interested in us and act like us, at the same time we believe that the afterlife is a place of piece and moving beyond the pettiness of life. I wanted to point out the possibility that IF the beliefs of gods or spirits that acted like us were accurate, it could point to an afterlife that is as crazy, dramatic and well 'human' as the one we live in now. It makes for a startling re-evaluation of things like 'wanting it to be over' or 'wishing the end would come' or suicidal/depression thoughts of that nature since it might be no different on the other side.

You speculation is bringing you much closer to the truth than you could ever hope for.

How very cryptic and vague of you :) lol

If I weren't, then it wouldn't be me. :P

In the end, Truth does not yet appear to be a commodity that any belief can rightly claim as wholy it's own yet. Either way, you telling me that you know the answers is likely to fall on jaded ears which is not to say I don't value your belief in your faith but that it is afterall just faith.

You're getting closer. However, it is said that true wisdom and clarity can be found and understood by pursuing that which is not, and vice versa.

Can you stay on topic please.

Thanks.

their will always be a fight in the spirtual relem because one doesnt get along with another, so on and so forth.

Precisely.

While I don't pretend to have all the answers, I do have my beliefs, which I will not bore anyone here with. I'll say this much. One thing I learned from being in the Boyscouts, is be prepared...for anything. With that in mind, I take my leave and wish you all good hunting. -47

i can totally respect the power struggle thing in the afterlife because like you said there are loads of stories about gods and angels and so on talking about them being in battle with each other and stuff...like in the bible...its always heaven versus hell...demons against angels...i think that when we die we strap on some armor and head straight into battle....thats just my thought

Personally I think that the gods don't really exsist, that humans made them up to explain their world and how the universe was created.

wow there is gods and goddess i have felt a few in my 24 years of life and i have beed saved by a few

I agree with mrd in that gods are anthropomorphic beings.....I think that Gods are the ultimate form of humanity in regard to their behavior, reflecting all feelings, emotions, and wants of the human race......

Wraith's post reflects the ancient world's concept of the realms of gods & goddesses.
Man created God or (the Gods) in his own image.
The Egyptians (originally pastorial people) had gods that were part man & part animal (originally the Egyptian gods were about half man & half animal,then they were human with the heads of animals).
The Assyrians,also,had it where some of their gods were part man & part animal.
Abraham,the Judeo-Christian patriarch,
was born & raised in Ur (1 of 7 main cities in Sumer/Chaldea/Babylonia) & would have been raised according to the belief system.
Marduk was a major god to the culture.
He drove out the "dark gods",riding on a white horse with a sword coming out of his mouth.
Revelation,in the New Testament of the Christian bible,states that one way that Christ will return to the Earth to destroy the "evil" forces on a white horse with a sword coming out of his mouth.
Abraham went to Egypt at the time that the Hyskos ruled there.The Hyskos worshipped Osiris & Isis as their chief deities.
Osiris was murdered by Set (or Seth),was resurrected by Isis,using the eye of Ra & became kind of the land of the dead.
Christ was killed,resurrected & became king of paradise.
The myths have survived under new guises.
Then there's the Council(s) of Nycea.
This group chose to edit the "word of God",because they believed that certain passages would be "bad press" for the new religion.
No offense to anybody who has any spiritual belief,but yes,the concepts of the "divine" are man made & we do not change the theme all that much.

I agree with mrd...That it say's that WE are made to look like the god's...So I think that because we act the way we do that of coues they would do the same...But to us it would be drama and not just life wich it my just that to them, life....But that is just what I think..
.........xxx.......

I agree whole heartedly with this thread. Organized religion is just that, organized. The gods//goddesses//deities//and/or whatever else might be exalted or praised use the followers. The physical world and the metaphysical world are very similar. They both contain emotions.