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Vampire fact vs. fiction
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PrettySamantha
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14:26:10 Dec 05 2006
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Allright we all knnow the myths from the movies and books. Vampires are afraid of sunlight because it makes them burst into flames. Crosses and holy water and other religious things can harm vampires. A vampire cannot enter a persons house unless invited in. And so on....But how do we sift through what is right and what is wrong. I am a vampire,a dn it's hard to explain that to people, expecially non believers. Me being a vampire means that I drink from donors and I survive off of others blood and vice versa with my blood. Then I have the people who ask about stakes through the heart and sunlight. Where did all these myths come from and do you other vampires have any of the weaknesses listed above? How do you explain what you are to a non-beliver?




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Joli
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14:37:42 Dec 05 2006
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When you ask a question that relies on "believers" and "non-believers," you enter into the realm of faith. So upon that premise, you would explain the way all faith is explained...your own personal experiences, those of others you know, and the traditions, stories, and witness accounts of those who came before you.

If you are discussing something that can be observed, tested, and explained, you point to the body of evidence that is documented in repeated experiments so that the conclusions can be studied further.

For example, you explain why you categorize vampirism with the definition you choose...why you drink blood...how it makes you feel...what your doctor's interpretation of that is...the clinical studies you have participated in, and the body of evidence that you have accumulated.

It's hard to nail down the hows of explaining until you're clear where you come from on the matter... Will your explanation require trust and faith on my part or will it point to understandable laws of nature?



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aliravrykul
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16:02:02 Dec 05 2006
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I agree with you mcrgrl....its really hard to get people to understand you when they think you might be some sort of actual freak or needing mental help..vampires do exist, I am one of them actually. I live off the energy of blood and also off of the lifeforce that surrounds a person when I dont have a donor for blood purposes. But instead of people asking me if we are repulsed by garlic and such I get.....OMG you drink blood....ewww!!!



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Zodiacstwins
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16:30:48 Dec 05 2006
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Well sometimes the sun hurts my eyes but thats usually because I've been inside to long. lol



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trissy
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17:25:02 Dec 05 2006
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i think to many people only rely on the old myths about vampires thinking that vampires are more like the myths and what they watch on tv..... when people only belive what they see or read its hard for some to keep an open mind about the outher truths about the ones who actually partacke in the shareing of blood and the psy vamps......



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VAMPARIAH
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17:45:01 Dec 05 2006
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dispensing the allegory of sacred scripture as fact, or understanding that hollywood or written text of vampirism is metaphor, is key in finding the truth.

No one will ever understand true vampirism unless they feel it, and the ones who run around trying to behave like the vampires written about in fiction or displayed on the silver screen will also too wonder what it is to be a vampire.

Since vampirism is a personal journey, and what you find can never be turned into fact, and is covered up for a reason, no one will ever understand it, or ever be able to explain how fiction differs from fact.

Vampirism in truth for me is alot uglier than you'll ever want to know. Even for someone so adamant for truth such as I - there is a need to cover up just what we do to stay alive. But in the process of either becoming a permamnent vampire, or an immortal one, the things we do to get to that point are evil, but if evil is a tool for creating life and resurrection, then evil is not bad, and then therefore the demons utilized to make oneself whole should not weigh on the mind.

The demon would prefer we dwelled on using evil even for good, so, I will go the other way, I will accept that little bit of evil in me so it doesn't consume my mind.



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SatinMist
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18:24:47 Dec 05 2006
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Everyone makes such good points and observations. I don't think one can convince another of who/what you are because of all the stories throughout history. And I agree w/VAMPARIAH, unless one has experienced it, than its' truly hard to explain or express. You are who you are and what you are and there is no changing it. I don't believe nor would I ever believe we are or will be immortal. We are human beings, we are just different in many aspects. To the others, (outside world) we are freaks, or we live in a fantasy world etc. I have been told on numerous occassions I was a nut job..I wasn't fit to be a parent or anything else for that matter. I will not shut my eyes or mind to those that have no clue or concept.



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FelixFelix
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18:37:30 Dec 05 2006
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I don't think that it is either fair or wise to question one's belief in the old myths of the vampire anymore that it is wise or fair to question your belief in the new or modern vampires. Whether I feel that fiction refers to something more ancient and real or whether I feel that fiction is as far as vampirism went until adopted by the modern vampires is for me and me alone.

You would not suggest that I question your belief or suggest that your belief is somehow hampering my own faith or lack thereof. I would put it to you that the old myths, the old fiction, older beliefs of reality and the current fiction of today will not soon disappear to make way for your beliefs and it is a wasted time to try and convince others to leave those behind or qualify them against your reality.



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UpirLikhyj
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18:48:55 Dec 05 2006
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If fact is being sought after rather than fiction, then don't you find such terms as "belief" and "faith" counter-productive to such an endeavor, Felixfelix?

If belief in vampires is to be made basically synonymous with, say, religious faith... then I guess I can understand how not seeking out primary source material might be preferred. However, for anyone seeking the root truths of any mythology (which is, after all, the topic of this thread) one must approach the subject as would any true researcher or scientist.

And as such, if we are to attempt discerning "fact" from "fiction" re: the vampire, it only makes sense to seek out the original accounts from whence the very name "vampire" originates, after all. And those accounts do not at all mention any of the traits that only developed bit by bit over the course of centuries of pulp-fiction storytelling by published authors primarily of Western Europe.



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Annakeeya
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19:05:08 Dec 05 2006
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ok I know what I have said in the past, but I believe that it is all a state of mind. I think that there are those out there who seem to think that they really truely are vampires, then there are those out there that really truelly need to go to the nut house.



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UpirLikhyj
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19:13:04 Dec 05 2006
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LOL... well put, especially the last sentence.

Seriously though, in the short time I have been a member here I have seen many Forum entries seeking answers to this question re: what might have been the truths/facts behind the vampire myths. Thus, for many here, this is an issue of some importance and not merely a matter of either "state of mind" or "belief"/"faith."

The Slavic Vampire is a topic of immense fascination for many of us. Thus, given this ever-growing popularity, it only makes sense that to help us discern better those aspects more in line with the original accounts as opposed to those more indicative of the nut-house bound, we seek to discover what the original potential "truths" might have been. Hence, the many many Forum threads addressing that very issue... such as this one.



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PrettySamantha
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19:44:16 Dec 05 2006
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Well i'm glad to see that I did get some responses on my question. I am glad to see that people here on VR are so wise. Questions arise everyday, about vampires, and other paranormal things, and i see that I am finally getting some answers. Though i am unsure if I got the answers I needed, so i pose a new question....

What can we do to better help others understand our "condition", no not condition, our way of life?



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FelixFelix
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20:45:55 Dec 05 2006
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Any condition requires self examination or meditation in order to accept and learn what we want both from and for ourselves. Any answer here can only point in directions not solutions. I know that sounds like cryptic bullshit but the fact is that if you want someone here to give you answers it's still going to be up to your own desires and goals as to whether or not you take them.

The answers you got from the people thus far have shown you that there are multiple beliefs of the vampire.

Upir - we are dealing with something that for many is a mystic or supernatural belief and not the specific historical lineage that you subscribe to. While your belief is based perhaps more along research and history, that is still requiring a faith in this nephilm representation since nothing has been scientifically proven about that history...only your current condition and documentation that points to a possible historical context.



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Illuminati
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22:03:29 Dec 05 2006
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Felix,

Not only that, but it seems Upir is confused, mixing up solid answers with geneology. If you are of Slavic descent then you could be in the line of Slavic vampires. I am of Romanian descent so I am in the line of Romanian creatures that have vampiric qualities, ie: Vampires. Vampire--it is just a word that defines. It could well have been called Whoshissnatchire, or something like that. Humans used their sight to observe something, then throats made sound, and this is what came out.

It is about metaphors and how strongly you believe in basic definitions of the words, in any language, translated into--Vampire.



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VAMPARIAH
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22:58:25 Dec 05 2006
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um, felix and the long blonde haired vampire maker, bring up some points, but they are both right.


I once came across a page on here of a girl who hadd all the different vampire lores in the different parts of the world.;

I was surprized to find the amount of vampirism in the abduction of children. Most of them were.

Vampires I guess seemed to like at the time new bloodlines.

So, taking in to account blonde vampire makers statements that we must go bnack to the beginning, and felix holding steadfst to the concept the evolution of the vampire tale changes as according to the demands of windows in history.

Now, the time is of a new age. First vampirism is a driving force of biodiversity, but the amount of destruction to the gene pool has made the biodiversity of humans so poor, so that now history is asking vampires to repopulate the human race.

The funny thing in this vampire nephilim fallen angel scenario coming down to earth to repopulate the earth, from the Bible, is more true to day, but it seems, that there is a more alien aspect to it, in the idea of controlled organ harvesting.

They resurrect vampires to mate with human's but they make sure to destroy certain parts of their DNA.

The purpose of vampire fiction is at first to populate the earth with vampires through seduction to the dark side, and then once recreated, vampires, through the fact of evolutionary driving force moving through them are asked to descend to earth once again, if they asked to leave, and populate a new "revamped" strain of humans, since evolutionary forces have their checks and balances.



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Vampyre17
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23:26:20 Dec 05 2006
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Really all those "weakness" started from Bram Stroker, and yeah i know what you are talking about when you say its hard to explain to non-belivers.



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Illuminati
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23:35:31 Dec 05 2006
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Well, these weakness were gathered by Stoker. They were already there, seated around the world in the form of myth. These mythical creatures were a genuine source of fear. They were either acted upon or prevented against. It is just a matter if one thinks the fear was due to a true danger or a metaphor for control. Many of the myths of vampires are due to some commited sin, and the curse is the result of said sin. Like I said, it is all a matter of what you feel to be true, fact.



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dampyr14
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23:53:42 Dec 05 2006
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A lot of people are hard headed and don't believe that vampires exist.
As for weaknesses, I think that vampires have no real weaknesses. When vampires hear about stuff like crosses and sunlight that can inflict pain or even kill their kind, they themselves become afraid of them. I think that the pain is really only caused by their own fear. They fear that they will die or be injured by these things so much that they forget that silver and crosses are mearly objects that really posses no real threat to them.



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VAMPARIAH
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23:59:55 Dec 05 2006
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FEAR is a human trait


fear is what makes vampiresw hunted and misunderstood

one thiing that is clear between fear and the vampire

is that about the crosses, they can only hurt the vampire if they fear them.



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Illuminati
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00:03:42 Dec 06 2006
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Factual or Ficticious vampire, Vampariah? *winks*

This thread is touching on both of them, but to believe in a single one comes by choice.



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UpirLikhyj
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00:41:04 Dec 06 2006
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Illuminati, et al, it is presumptuous and fallacious to ascribe confusion to another's views simply for differing from your own, especially when my views are the only ones provided with the actual primary Slavic accounts to back them up.

As I have stated throughout my views here, when the original Slavic accounts are investigated, which no one else here has bothered to review or cite, the conclusions I have drawn are identical to those made by Drs. Perkowski, Dundes, and many other prominent vampirologists that the vampire was considered by the early Slavs not as a blood-sucking, non-sexual, crucifix-fearing, fang-brandishing creature, at all. But instead was described as a "handsome young man" who seduced women and engaged in such energetic "orgies" with them lasting days and nights on end as to be called "plague carriers" for the manner in which their female lovers would afterwards appear weak and emaciated. Often by such women they had children, called "dhampirs." The blood-drinking trait was added to the myth far later when corpses believed to be vampires were dug up and found with appeared to be fresh blood on their mouths and whose bodies appeared to be full of blood when pierced (modern forensics revealed that this was due to the liquifying of the bodies organs in the decomposition process causing the resultant fluids to seem blood-like).

Those are the un-"confused" facts from the Slavic accounts made by experts, medical doctors, Slavic historians, etc., as found in "Vampires of the Slavs" and "The Darkling" (Dr. Jan Perkowski), "The Vampire Book (J. Gordon Melton), "The Vampire: A Casebook" (Dr. Alan Dundes); and many, many others.

Instead, in reading the entires herein, almost all reach conclusions re: what vampires "factually" were based primarily if not solely on their own anecdotal experiences and/or views as shaped largely by the very vampire fictions they themselves often criticize.

And you call me "confused."



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Natriel
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01:00:16 Dec 06 2006
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Bravo, VAMPARIAH. Your words are overfilled with knowledge on this present matter. I must agree that in order to concieve the facts of vampirism, one must view and realize the fiction. For any to truely understand "us", they must experience it first-hand, and there is absolutely no other way to go about it. I really don't care who you are, where you are from, or what you believe in, you have "to be there to do that" in order to decipher fact from fiction and past from present for that matter. Those who claim to be, or even want to be, based on what they see on TV or on a movie-screen anywhere, have no concept of the reality of the truth and therefore are *ill-advised*, for lack of a better word at the moment, in their own journey and personal quest. In order to know yourself, and be one with yourself, you must face yourself and for many, that means facing your inner demons that do, humanly, make you fear yourself for what you are and what you do. If you cannot, or choose not to because of fear, conquer your demons, than you, yourself, are living a life overcome by fiction.



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Illuminati
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01:02:41 Dec 06 2006
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Now you have me confused. (har har) Seriously, read some other books, or documentation from other regions. Most myths from other cultures involve the risen bodies of the receintly departed. Not ugly, fanged beasts. Just them as they were laid to rest. Many of the myths of Romania deal with unfaithfull spouses, rising after death, due to being cursed for their sins. They were not monsters, just risen. I may not be as schooled in one regional department as you, but I know enough from a large range of cultures, and that give me the ability to see holes in your view. Respectfully, this is just my opinion, and not an attack at you--to cause hurt. History of vampiric creatures goes back farther than Stoker, the Slavs and many other civilizations. Look into some of that, and then you will understand why I say what I say.

I drink blood, Upir. That is my definition of vampirism (vampire). If there is anything else I can do, that is secondary to my vampirism. It is hard for me to believe in any myth, this includes a large amount of religious theory. However, I do believe that stories, as fantastic as they are, are written around real people and events. This is the way I am currently learning to write, so it would seem natural that storytellers of the past would do the same. This is also why I used the term "vampirc creatures" in the previous paragraph. They may seem like monsters, but possibly representations of real aspects of vampires.

Respectfully,
Illuminati



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VampyreHeart
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01:08:44 Dec 06 2006
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I have a severe problem with sunlight, hurts my eyes, makes my head hurt and actually makes me feel sick...as for what I tell others I tell them the truth, most people do not beleive me so I feel it is better that way for humans hate what they do not understand.



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CTyler
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01:24:01 Dec 06 2006
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You mean, like: An abnormally heightened response, especially of the skin, to sunlight or ultraviolet radiation, caused by certain disorders or chemicals and characterized by a toxic or allergic reaction. That's not a symptom of your vampirism, but a rare, but natural disease or allergy called Photosensitivity.



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AntiEveryone
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01:32:53 Dec 06 2006
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Who are we to diagnose ourselves. We can make assumptions on what we are, but can we really be sure.....when is "feeling" something is true ever enough? "I know vampires exist" is a hard angle to get across to people, smart people...ask questions, and do not buy into things just because you tell them to, especially the things that have other non outrageous explanations. It all comes down to interpretation of what you see. What you see as a "vampire" someone else might see a "medical/mental condition" and if physical symptoms do manifest it may not be what you THINK it is. Anyone can label a can of unopened corn as green beans. An explanation of the "weird" or supernatural kind should be the LAST option, never the first conclusion.



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UpirLikhyj
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01:56:30 Dec 06 2006
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Illuminati, thank you for your reply; your views are appreciated.

As I do not wish to repost citations further on this point, suffice it to say that which we call "vampires" did indeed originate only in the Slavic countries. Just because there are myths in other countries that might share what could be described as a "vampiric" trait or two (blood drinking or flesh eating [e.g., Kali or werewolves] or rising from the dead [e.g., ghosts or zombies] or having sex with the living [e.g., incubi or succubi], etc.) does not make of such myths examples of "vampirism."

What has happened in modern culture is that, due to the inordinate fascination Hollywood and authors have imbued upon the now highly bastardized concept of the Slavic "vampire," everyone wants to identify therewith. Thus, all too often any social misfit who feels alienated from society tries to identify or invent traits within themselves that will have them believing they, too, are "vampires." Hence, those claiming to be hypersensitive to light (a Stoker fiction of vampirism, or a non-vampiric medical condition) or drink blood (a false conclusion based on faulty forensic observation of dug-up corpses in Medieval times), or feed off energy (never mentioned in any Slavic account), or otherwise imagine themselves "darkly" empowered and/or feared as a result.

Frankly, as depicted in all the later Slavic accounts and the fictions after that, vampires were believed to be the blood-drinking "Undead."

If blood drinking is believed a trait of the true vampire, then so almost must be considered the trait of not being mortal. After all, both traits are found universally in all fictions and/or later accounts of the "vampire." Thus, by the definition of the very fictions you claim to adulate and emulate, if you are mortal, you are not a vampire... regardless whether you happend to drink blood or not. If you accept the blood-drinking trait, then you cannot separate from such the equally important "immortal" "undead" trait, either. Yet I seriously doubt anyone here would claim they are no longer mortal, much less opt to try proving it. And despite the many here claiming to not be Human, their DNA will surely prove they are.

If we are trying to separate "fact" from "fiction," then would it not serve to first rid ourselves of such vain delusions? These are the cold, hard facts, which facts this forum thread claims to seek. Yet apparently I am the only one who dares point them out.

Respectfully and with Concern for All,

Upir' Likhyj



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CTyler
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01:57:24 Dec 06 2006
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So, you would prefer a fictional explanation over scientific facts? Would think this is a prime example of why these threads keep coming up. They are never resolved. Photosensitivity is a -familiar- reaction, as this can of corn, as you call it, has been opened for quite a while.

The thing is that it might be a symptom of the modernisation of the early versions of vampires who had no such faults. Like was stated above, if Stoker gathered these weaknesses from myths and legends and applied them to Vampires, such an illness could very well have been the cause of such a myth, just as there are diseases that cause the gums to retract, making teeth seem longer.

This thread truly fits the title, as there seems to be no reasoning between the sides who steadfast hold newer attributations to the vampires, and those who look into documented 'vampire' incidents in older history. I have doubts as to this will be resolved at all.



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pandora4563
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02:07:00 Dec 06 2006
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To me personally it is what you belive is true.



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CTyler
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02:08:23 Dec 06 2006
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See what I mean?



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DeathKnightShimitar
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02:18:23 Dec 06 2006
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If a person already has the idea that vampires are not for real...Then you will never change that.



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Joli
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02:31:08 Dec 06 2006
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I certainly do, Tyler. How can you have a thread to discuss separating fact from fiction when truth is simply what you think it is?

The thread further began with the question of how to explain to others about vampirism. Just a heads-up...we will have other threads similar to this one again. Good people will weigh in with history, science, and empiric evidence. You will have the "it started this way" and the "science says" and the "feel it within yourself" groups.

Personally, I love the debate and discussion. I typically find at least one new thing that challenges me, and one or two people who are like-minded, so even though it gets repetitive, I'm still entertained. But I'm not so bright...cats stay entertained by balls of yarn, too.



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Illuminati
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02:38:03 Dec 06 2006
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Upir,

I am sorry to say that this next question will be leading, and possibly a trap.

What group of Slavic people do you say this one definative myth of vampirism come from? The ones that settled in Germany? Romania? Poland? The ones that took over lands cleard by the Huns or the Magyars? ;)



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VAMPARIAH
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02:55:41 Dec 06 2006
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well, even with the Vampire babe abduction for bloodlines in South America and Africa, or the hot mom best selling books right now, I am not going to go into what drinking blood means to me. Personally I go along with Uber Vampire Maker on this one, even though he contradicts himself, that white skin has nothing to do with it. All Europe was white. When Jesse Owens defeated the Germans in Berlin in 1936, lots of people were like what is a black man? Vampirism is about getting whiter and whiter, and going Norther and Norther, and then ultimately leaving Ireland or travelling like Vikings to repopulate the globe even find new worlds 500 years before Columbus.

Hollywood fiction is misdirection, the metaphors hold true though.

Any global view of vampirism outside of the vampiric white peoples' of Europe is wrong. It of course originated thousands of years before in Africa, but the migration of vampires across the Mediterrean to live in cooler climes is where vampirism grew feasting on itself.



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UpirLikhyj
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04:59:06 Dec 06 2006
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Illuminati,

To ask a question designed as a trap, you would first have to know the history of the Rephaim, which you do not.

However, I am happy to reply to your question obliquely: encounters with this bloodline in Medieval times were reported by populations as far south as Anatolia (Turkey) and Greece, as far West as the Balkans, as far north as Poland, and as far East as parts of western Russia.

Whether you feel that sprung a trap or not, and for all the good such a factual tidbit might serve you... there it is.



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steavetheundead
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05:53:07 Dec 06 2006
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i have trouble with sunlight, it doesnt make me burst into flames, but it makes my skin itch, makes me tired, and i burn easily. i actualy love the taste of garlic, and the way crosses look, though i think of them from a celtic standpoint rather then a christian one. and i think most people would have a problem with having a steak driven through their heart, vampire or mortal



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UpirLikhyj
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06:13:02 Dec 06 2006
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Illuminati,

As one good question deserves another, allow me to ask you a basic one in return. And while not fashioned as any sort of "trap," nevertheless, you will be unable to answer it.

Why was Eastern Europe the "homeland" of the Rephaim ("vampires," if you must) for millennia prior to the repressive rise of Christianity? What drew them to that area and kept them there?

Yes... there is a very real reason why. But, unless you know the history of the Rephaim and the truth behind who and what they were, you can't answer the question.



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VAMPARIAH
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06:57:47 Dec 06 2006
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Uber you speak quite vague. How about some dates?
Then maybe we can answer your riddles.



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CLIX
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07:25:57 Dec 06 2006
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So here I am the "non-believer" but still respect that you believe yourself to be a Vampire. The reason I don't believe? Simple..If there ever was such a powerful creature would he not still be around? If they possessed immortality and all the powers that I am learning about since I became a member of VR, would such a creature have not allready by this day in time be well known to all of mankind? I am fascinated by Vampires but I admitt I'm thouroughly confused. What is the difference between a Vampire then and a Vampire now? And psy Vamps? Most everyone on earth feeds off of others energies and such so what is the difference between a Vamp and a non Vamp?



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VAMPARIAH
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Alright Uber, went to your profile. One philosophical understanding of life is insufficient.

There is something at the heart of the matter you do not even see I am sure. Yes men are generally jealous of his fellow man, this I have felt from the other end. But I fear no man, or any simple traps, even if they are 10,000 years in the making.

The killing off of the nephilim offspring has resulted in women not desiring to mate with the best men possible. I know this first hand. Why mate with a male whom children the children of would be slaughtered. Women are smart.

I don't know where you got the great civilization arising out of modern day Iraq, they were replaced quite quickly and that area was overrun by many different peoples. I have studied that land for quite some time. I don't think Hammurabi was even a king of those peoples you claim to have been the greatest civilization ever. We need all different civilizations to have a global view, we need more than one over simplified philosophy to understand and master life.

Yes, I have stated in the past that vampires are fallen angels, and I was shot down for it, and now it appears the whole of the actual plot to the creation of vampirism, that can be traced back to the beginning of civilization was because of angelic powers which were turned to black.

I was right, you are a vampire maker. You hold your tenets up high and claim it is wrong to slay the powerful, but then you do the opposite.

A trap is a trap, but a trap is for an animal. And traps make life fun, do they not?

I will wiggle out of this trap, and pull on the line that leads me to your domain. I have seen my enemy, the man that has been hunting me all these years in the flesh, and I will not quiver in fear. I fear no man.

Women yes I fear, but I do not envy their sexuality which seems to be another tenet of your "religion". Yes women must be worshipped, and all the life that comes from them must be protected, even if it takes an angel to give up his wings to crawl down to hell and grapple with the demon vampire maker and unveil their perfect mask guise for all to see.

I would give up 10 mortal deaths, and all the immortality in the world to destroy the demon that has created all this fabric of civilization, designed to kill the evil.

I will carry the cross and cross it even if it is not to be allowed to cross it. You see the first time you cross the cross it is to answer the devil, and the second time is to answer the plea of god.

The fangs? Well that is something you would not understand either. I don't think you get me at all, that is why you do not ever even acknowledge I am on the same thread as you. We belong in the same House of the Bel Obscuridad, and yet you do not even speak to me?

Why do you fear good so much?

Why do you fear a good who has fully undertaken evil into his breast into his loin, and even had a fang suck the energy out of life to die, only to know the fang is a good thing the second time. It tells me it is time to bare my teeth and attack, for under the full moon when you see a glimpse of your enemy one must strike, for cowards do not display themselves often.

I accept all evil, I will accept the devil in me, but I will not accept evil posing as good. I am evil, your trap showed that to all. I don't care what others think, unto myself I accept the evil in me, because in order to conquer your enemy you have to know your enemy.



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UpirLikhyj
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08:14:47 Dec 06 2006
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Vampariah,

I have not intentionally ignored your remarks; I simply find them difficult to follow. And none more so than this latest, to be honest. However in an attempt to reply, I will pull what I can from your statements and reply thereto, so far as they relate to this thread.

First off, I made no mention of "traps" to you or for you. You are somehow confusing this with Illuminati's statement to me re: an implied "trap" she set for me in her earlier question to me. No other mention of "traps" occurred except in relation to that context.

Secondly, Sumer did not "arise out of modern day Iraq," but instead it was just the reverse. And Sumer was not at all "replaced quite quickly." Instead, Sumer reigned supreme from approximately 3500 BCE to about 2000 BCE, over 1,500 years. And, no, Hammurabi was not a Sumerian king at all; he lived over 300 years after Sumer and ruled the Babylonian Empire at the time.

As for the rest of your post, better minds than mine will have to ponder its significance. In any event, thank you for your remarks. I wish you well in life and hope that you likewise wish the same for all others.



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MisfitChick423
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08:56:32 Dec 06 2006
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I know that is difficult to explain mcrgurl. My mom beleives the myths, and so I can't tell her what I am. I can't explain that the myths are wrong. The only aspects between myth and real life that I find that correlate are:

Sunlight hurts out eyes, and in some cases, makes us feel like we are burning.

Our eyes are more noticeable and stand out.

We are very pale in complexion

There are others, but that would take too long to explain



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SouthernFreak
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09:00:07 Dec 06 2006
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Me personally I don't try to tell people! Most will believe they way they always have & you'll never try to find a way to break it down to them or changed their mind. Most of the general public think of the hollywood type vamps. Just my opinion on it. Personally sun light bothers my eyes extremely badly. All my life my pupils have been abnormally large. I was taken to an eye doctor for it as a child. The eye doctors opinion, nothing was wrong, no medical name for it, some people are just like that. That's the only trait I can relate really.



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meeper
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Changing people's beliefs and ideas is a hard notion. We are all familiar with the generic myths of vampiric qualities. But can a society of vampires even agree on traits that hold to everyone?

Maybe there are some that claim to be vampires and don't go out into sunlight. There are vampires that feed off of energy and not blood. Perhaps there are even vampires that wont go near garlic, and rid their house from any sharp wooden object.

I believe we would be hard pressed to explain what a vampire is let alone debunk myths..



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PrettySamantha
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18:02:56 Dec 06 2006
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Suppose i ask another question, what makes us know that we are vamps? This hunger we feel and the abnormalaties could be something different. I am not saying i dont believe, but what if we find out that we are really all psych, and in our own realitites.



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UpirLikhyj
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18:19:10 Dec 06 2006
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I fully recognize that to most here I am the odd man out (nothing new, there!). However, my view is that we are all unique in different ways and some of us do possess unusual traits or perhaps even abilities. It is in identifying any and all such factual aspects of ourselves as belonging to those ascribed to the fictional "vampire" that gets so confusing and convoluted.

This doesn't make any of us psycho; it just can have us denying the greater truths of who we each are individually in our mad dash to identify such traits with a wildly popular fictitious creature of largely Stoker-ian creation... that was itself founded on far earlier accounts of the same name whose attributes were markedly different.



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meeper
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18:21:35 Dec 06 2006
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Interesting twist...

I cannot by any means atest to what makes people believe themselves to be vampires. I do not see it in myself, but the mystery and the romantic legend is what pulls me to this community. I do know that psych vampires exist and that energy can be taken and channeled from one to another. But sometimes it is a hard leap for me to automaticly attribute that to vampirism because so many do it but are unaware of it. Perhaps everyone who claims or doesnt claim, is participating in the drawing of life/energy from others...



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FelixFelix
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19:35:28 Dec 06 2006
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Upir - while I am fascinated by the historical facts you lay on the table and understand your theory, there seems to be some confusion both on the part of your theory by some and on the part of conflicting or parallel theories by others. Let me try to moderate one or two items of interest in order to make some sense of the various thoughts and ideas floating around here.

Firstly, while the modern psy and sang vampires have adopted that name, there is debate even amongst them as to whether or not any traits of the myth or fictional vampires apply as well as whether the myths and folk tales were actually about their kind. After having been involved in discussion and debate on a number of these issues, I've found that the modern belief while parallel to myths is not founded using those myths to support their argument. Therefore, looking at historical evidence of those myths and their origin, has little or no bearing on the modern vampire's theory. This may be different for some but the overall viewpoint seems to be that the name vampire was chosen not because of a belief in a direct lineage to early myths but because the definition was similar enough to be used. Most will argue against 'Hollywood' traits (ie, undead, silver, crosses).

There are also those that believe wholly in the ancient myths or folktales as being representative of some larger truth. A truth wherein there existed some kind of ancient predator that in different forms received different names in different cultures but in some way fed on humans. Whether or not this myth got mixed up with the original upir / vampire name or was completely separate from it isn't so much the issue as to whether they existed. Vampire is used simply because of it's accepted definition (which may be historically inaccurate but accepted nonetheless) but this is in no way a conflict with the historical upir you put forward merely a point where myths may have collided.

Your historical theory is that there was a lineage of sexually fortified descendants from a point in ancient history. This lineage was never a blood drinker or a energy feeder but the name upir stemming from one of the lineage was changed to vampire and the myths built up around that were due to a jealousy and fear of the sexual predators in that lineage. Again, that myth and lineage could have been an early 'soup' of different beliefs pushed together for the sake of simplicity and applied to the unfortunate upir.

There are also beliefs of the fallen angel, the dark self destruction and the rebirth of our own selves through our dark lives and our own self determination. I believe that is what Vampariah is finding in common with the historical nephilm origin of your theory.

While all of these could not possibly be the same person/creature/angel, all of these could be called vampires based on their individual reasons and or relations to the myth/definitions/beliefs and metaphors. These are not mutually exclusive beliefs. They only conflict with each other in name and that name has simply come to mean a great many things these days.



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VAMPARIAH
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19:43:07 Dec 06 2006
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I dunno garlic being bad for vamps seems bogus to me.



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CTyler
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19:49:09 Dec 06 2006
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I dunno. Using enaugh of it, it could be bad for anyone...



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meeper
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21:07:14 Dec 06 2006
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Maybe since garlic is good for the heart and since Vampires are the undead so to speak that they don't need the health benefits that it offers..



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Illuminati
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21:25:24 Dec 06 2006
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Upir,

Actually the trap worked just fine. Why can't you just say what regional areas you are speaking of. Is it because you wish to look smarter than others? No, wait--that came out in the way you spoke to me. Yes, I did not know what that word ment or what its language of origin is. If you are, in any of your Slavic love essays, are speaking about any of the country myths I speak of, just admit it. They know your smart Upir, now speak with the rest of us.

The Slavs were nomads, a traveling group of people sharing simular dialect and genetic features. They didn't have a country or soild structure, until they settled in the countries that own the myths I speak of.

Myth or Fact, once written on anything, is up to the reader to decied, without force.



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UpirLikhyj
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21:32:50 Dec 06 2006
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FelixFelix,

I very much enjoyed your last entry; it was well reasoned, informed, and most certainly politically correct for this forum (and, no, I don't mean that at all disparagingly).

Indeed, if we choose to view as equally legitimate the modern definition of the vampire and their reputed traits as portrayed in modern movies and novels, then the logic of your position makes perfect sense. If we additionally choose to conclude that it is not possible to definitively differentiate historical "vampire" fact from fiction given the supposition of a mythological "soup" (good metaphor) of beliefs and legends from the Slavic countries, not to mention the additional introduction of "vampiric" soups from myths worldwide, then all your points and your conclusions are dead-on accurate. Such would be the only intelligent conclusion therefrom!

If, however, upon deeper investigation and research an historical key were discovered that clearly delineates original fact from fiction, a mythological soup strainer... if you will... that decisively permits drawing out therefrom the meat from the broth...

... well, then the argument changes immeasurably, does it not?


In any event, your position is certainly the most well-rounded to this discussion and the most eloquently presented. I happily applaud you for it.



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UpirLikhyj
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21:49:46 Dec 06 2006
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Illuminati,

I answered you as best I could given the parameters of your question. The difficulty in answering your question was that the Rephaim were not and are not numbered among any known peoples of Eastern Europe. Thus, as they are not numbered among any such, I could only give you geographic boundaries of their reported contact with the Slavic populations of the area.

The Rephaim were not Slavic though they could be considered indigenous to Eastern Europe from about 5,000 BCE on. And while generally correct that initially the Slavs were nomadic, from about 1000 CE on, they had ceased to so be. By this time they were well established in the area with many permanent cities, fiefdoms and kingdoms. Now, during Medieval times and later, there arrived another influx of peoples to the area who were quite nomadic: The Roma (Gypsies) from India. However, this occurred en masse centuries after those peoples known as "Slavs" had permanently settled into the environs of Eastern Europe.

And... like it or not... that 's the best I can answer your inquiry up to this point. Should you have additional questions, I'll be happy to answer as far as I feel comfortable.



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VAMPARIAH
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01:35:24 Dec 07 2006
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Listen Illuminati and Felix Felix, Uber is a Guardian of the secret, he does not know the secret because if he did then he would understand where I am coming from. He is an ally, that is why his profile has 1000 visits and mine around 700 in half the time. He is not only the guardian of the secret, but he is the container that holds the secret.


He does not have in actuality a philosophy that he has worked on himself, but it is more of one philosphy that he has subscribed to, and I hope it keeps him safe.

Fact or Fiction?

Hollywood is the new religion folks, it is just as vague as the bible but it can govern who lives and who dies. The metaphor in the Bible or Hollywood isx the same.

Science is the juxtapostion of it, which is as swe as vampires actually feel with out own senses.

Uber is the guardian in him is the holy graile but like in the Raders of the Losgt Ark those that open the holy graile are destroyed, they know all about it biut they are dead.

I believe he is right even if he doesn't know why.

religous texts are sacred, all of them if not the word of god are the words of peope with the godhead knowledge. Please do not take this as an attack on the value of his words. They hold very important value, but like religion and science in the apst try to describe the very same thing from different sides so does religious text/Hollywood and science today based upon empirical evidence I feel.

We all are right.



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sg2001
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04:28:47 Dec 07 2006
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i am also a vampire! i have been one for a long time now. as to ur questions on sunlight crosses, garlic.... etc. sunlight really hurts my eys, so i wear sunglasses all the time in light. i don't like garlic, but i like garlic salt, but not alot of it. i am very found of the cross, but i will not and shall not have one in my castle ( home ). i crave the thirst of blood as well.



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VAMPARIAH
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You see Illuminati, cuneform was the first language, and with the first writtn language one can get many things done. In 1,500 years, many lifetimes can be skipped over, and one can learn exactly from the first vampires how to come back from the dead or how to avoid being made.

What I went through is just basically a nervous breakdown in simplle explanation, but if you kill something that is already dead, then in essence you bring it back to life.

There isn't much cuneform tablets left to this day from the first people with an alphabet, and most of what we have from the time are in essence receipts.

One fish received from Gabe, tax paid to the king, and some cinamon.

There are lots of these tablets, and unfortunately for Uber his sacred text, or story from the timie period does not have a cuneform representation though the story does originate from that time. Yes II am sure there are all sorts of texts from the time period beyond receipts of barter, and these texts may have been kept in the Nineveh (spelling) vaults that were sacked throughout time.

Even without doing research I can say this is probably true. But they were smart for not writing on papyrus parchiment for then we would not even know what they ate, or what they did at the mall way back yonder.

I think somewhere in the future we will uncover a clay tablet that holds the first story of vampirism in Uber's philosophy , but until we find the original, we must remain skeptical of what Uber professes, yet at the same time learn from his stories and apply them to real modern life today.



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darkstarladybug
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20:41:02 Dec 07 2006
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it's hard to explain or tell anyone that you are a vampire and you need to have the energy that coming feeding off blood or a lifeforce

they seem disgusted and they think something is wrong with you

or you get the people who think you've hit your head one too many times.

so i just keep it all bottled up until i met my friends who i could hang with and they'd understand. we could feed off each other and be our true selves with.

i suppose it's best to keep it to yourself unless you're sure they would understand.

is anyone else been born into a household whose religion forbids feeding off an person?



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Mikhail
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20:42:04 Dec 07 2006
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This thread is very interesting mcrgurl16... I love the history that has been talked about in relations to where vampires came from and what they were or considered to be..
Bravo UpirLikhyj for having such knowledge on this subject.
I am a psy-vamp and personally no I don't fear any of the things that myth claims vampires are supposed to avoid.
Why would they the vampires of myth and legend fear these things even if they are the magical un-dead of Hollywood movies if they were Christains in life or chefs LOL they wouldn't be avoidant of these things at all...
What is the Vampire had been Jewish??? would he then be avoidant of the sign of that faith???
I think these things are set up to carry along a story line nothing more then that they add flavor to a popular story about creatures that are supposed to be considered damned by there very nature..



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darkstarladybug
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i once read a story about a Jewish vamp...he was deeply tortured having to feed on other living beings...

i think that if he had felt that conflicted he would have abstained or killed himself...



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FelixFelix
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22:38:01 Dec 07 2006
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Is human blood Kosher?



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darkstarladybug
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i don't think so because kosher is when the animal is slaughter in such a way that it feels no pain, is looked over for sickness and it may be blessed i'm not sure about that last part...

feel free to correct me



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FelixFelix
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00:12:53 Dec 08 2006
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Vampariah - there are so many moral land mines in your theory that I'm actually a little frightened to take that on. I tend to get just a little skittish when theories start to include Nazi motivations the 'Jewish brain' being different than others.

However, if a mythological vampire can create the hypnotic effect of no pain (as told in the folklore and fiction) then drinking human blood would be kosher? Again I think I may have opened a can of worms.

Perhaps it's best that we scuttle both of those thoughts/diversions and return to the ideas originally put forward.



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VAMPARIAH
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Well the Jews did go to Iraq. The whole babylonian captivity, this would mesh with uber's philosophy? That seems what the thread is centered around, going back to the beginning.

I do not include details that do not have merit. The Jews may have learned from the story of Uber's peoples and that is how it got into their bible.

If they did learn from the land of Ur, that might be the reason why the Jews are so smart, and they are smart, there is no argument agianst that. They own all of Hollywood and like I said in the thread Hollywood is the new religion, not the ATM as some comic stated. Chris Rock.



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satanicvampyre
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05:12:08 Dec 08 2006
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explanation? you don't, just feed. The tradition weakmess of a vampire was created for the mind of man to accept the evil can be killed easily.



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arashi1281
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05:28:13 Dec 08 2006
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Respect and graciousness will take a person, demon, vampire, or Lycan farther than being harsh or abrasive. As for the sunlight, ask a Vampire in the Lone Star state.



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VAMPARIAH
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06:21:18 Dec 08 2006
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well, there are alot of women singing that famous country western song WHERE HAVE ALL THE COWBOYS GONE

keeping secrets under 10 gallon hats has devestated not only the Lone Star State, but also all of America and Europe. The other countries seem to be with the program, they have less fear of the truth with their masculinity not in question.

It can be a vampire planet. There are not enough watchers, and guardians, I am just a vampire rat.



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Cinnamon
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07:13:35 Dec 08 2006
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You know, I really hate it when I get to the end of a thread and I can't remember what it was even about in the first place... So many people take so many different twists and turns in an attempt to put on display just how intelligent they are. This was a major factor that kept me away from the General Discussion area in the first place. However, with the Sandbox no longer being sturdy ground I have been forced to take on the sometimes...ok, oftentimes...chaotic General Discussion area.

I am not a vampire so I cannot answer the first part of your question. I don't know about the weakness that modern day vampires share with vampires of myth and legend. As for the second part...how do you explain to a non-believer??? Well, let me answer that with a question of my own. Why do you need to explain anything to anybody?? In the end what does it matter? Are their opinions of you going to change you? *shrugs* I guess I just gave up trying to explain myself long ago. You either accept me just the way I am or you walk away. Your loss.

On a side note: I'm terribly sick and if my posts make no sense then I apologize. Ok. I'm off to find more topics that utterly confuse me. *smiles*


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Joli
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08:25:07 Dec 08 2006
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Just a quick little insert, if you'll indulge me. I'd hate the "kosher" question to get away from us. It doesn't refer at all to animals being slaughtered without pain...it's ritual slaughter that severs the jugular vein, carotid artery, esophagus and trachea in a single cut with a smooth, sharp knife until the animal bleeds out. It can be quite painful.

But "kosher" refers to more than just slaughter...it's a pretty hefty set of rules that deems whether an animal is fit for human consumption, so by design, a human cannot be kosher.

As to the nazi/jewish theory, I'm just stunned. I'm so stunned that I'm going to go look up new adjectives that mean stunned because stunned just isn't cutting it.



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dravenlore
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16:06:56 Dec 08 2006
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depends on your faith and what you feel... me I am what you call a "crow" mixed with the pleasures of vampireism... extended life but not immortal... just enjoy most pleasures... non believers lack faith and question everything... they do not know thyselves



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raziel
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16:22:22 Dec 08 2006
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there is no real fact about vampires as they are seen now, its all fiction, u may think you are feeding off someones energy but it may just be illusion, as the mind over matter can cause your body to do things that couldnt be done with out it. like when danger arises u get scared and actually get stronger physically when you need to fight or flight. the human mind has many things that can fool the body and make it do things that arent a normal function



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meeper
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17:08:12 Dec 08 2006
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Faith is a strange thing... its hard to believe in anything that is solid and concrete in the world.. so to stretch that to the truth about myths and legends - it is even harder to believe.

to each there own i guess.



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LordFangor
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19:33:40 Dec 08 2006
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I guess the real question becomes if you are a vampire what so called "facts" apply to you

Are you afraid of crosses? Do you not go out in the daylight? Have you entered someone else's home without being invited(a burglary :)) Are you obssessed with knots?

Perhaps no "facts" exist



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FelixFelix
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19:50:28 Dec 08 2006
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If one really wants to avoid the comparison, I'd suggest that any admission of being a vampire immediately be followed with "but not like the ones you've learned about."

I don't recommend creating a seed of argument by stating that the mythological or even fiction vampires "had it wrong" but more simply stating that what you are is very different from in not wholly unrelated to the original myths.



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FrgttnFllnAngl
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01:23:32 Dec 09 2006
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I don't know where these myths started but I do know that, in the case of true vampires, the only way to kill them was to chop off their head and stuff it with garlic and then burn the body. The stake didn't have to be in the heart as it was just used to hold the vampire down as they chopped off the head.



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HorrorXcore
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07:41:12 Dec 11 2006
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Well,
There are people whom are allergic to the sun they get burns of 3rd degrees.
This is called Polymorphoic Light Eurption.
Excuse My spelling.
Which I do Have.
But this does not make someone a vampire.
-Jenn



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enchanted1369
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13:02:41 Dec 11 2006
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nothing is impossible my open mind has let me experence things people told me didnt exist so therefore i will rule nothing out



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Wildsorkid
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17:02:52 Dec 11 2006
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I am open to finding the truth. Elizabeth bathory was known as the blood countess because she drank the blood of her enemies, SHe is said to be one of the original vampires from what i have read. Belief is in the indivigual and there personal interpritation of what vamperisim is to them.



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Vampirologist
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17:24:06 Dec 11 2006
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FACT AND FICTION CONCERNING THE HIGHGATE VAMPIRE CASE

[Extract from Seán Manchester's unpublished memoir Stray Ghosts]

© Seán Manchester, 2003

“I will show you fear in a handful of dust.”
(T S Eliot)

The journey had been long and oftentimes difficult, and I wondered what the French vampirological and biblical scholar, Dom Augustin Calmet, would have made of it all. He entered the Benedictine Order in 1688, becoming ordained into the priesthood in 1696, after which he was offered consecration to the episcopate by Pope Benedict XIII, but turned it down. More than anything else, Calmet is remembered for his 1746 work on vampires: Dissertations sur les Apparitions des Anges des Démons et des Espits, et sur les revenants, et Vampires de Hongrie, de Boheme, et de Silésie.

My own experience in this field, which, of course, commenced with the Highgate case, leaves me in absolutely no doubt that such things can be. Calmet’s attempt to establish the veracity of such predatory demonic entities lacked first-hand evidence. He seemed to concentrate on the collecting of vampire reports, which he certainly did not dismiss out of hand, and then offered his reflections on them. Calmet defined the phenomena as corpses that returned from their graves to disturb the living by sucking their blood and even causing death. The only remedy was to exhume the afflicted body, sever its head, and drive a stake through the heart. Cremation was also considered another effective alternative. Using that definition, he gathered all the accounts he could find, and it is these reports of collected data that take up the majority of space in his volume. He justifiably condemned the hysteria which accompanied several of the reported vampire incidents, and he also properly considered all the natural explanations that were offered for the phenomenon.

His findings were inconclusive. However, Calmet did not state that the reports could be explained away by natural causes, but he shrank from proposing an alternative answer. In other words, he left the entire matter unresolved. Yet he seemed to favour the existence of vampires by noting “that it seems impossible not to subscribe to the belief which prevails in these countries that these apparitions do actually come forth from the graves and that they are able to produce terrible effects which are so widely and so positively attributed to them.” Calmet had posed five possibilities for all the accounts he had considered. Three of these he dismissed. The remaining two consisted of the possibility that vampires are the result of the Devil’s interference, or just superstition. No firm conclusion was apparent until the third and last edition, published in 1751, where in his bestselling work he makes clear that he could conclude naught save that such creatures as vampires really did return from the grave.

In the wake of my mysterious and terrible discovery at Highgate Cemetery in August 1970 no such dilemma about their existence would ever assail me again; though I did speculate on explanations for the peculiar abilities attributed to this phenomena.

“They exist outside of normal time; therefore, when discovered after centuries, a [corporeal host] might appear three score years at most ― possibly much younger. … Time will do nothing thereafter to efface its condition … Our earthly bodies move in time. The vampire’s does not.” [The Highgate Vampire, Gothic Press, 1991, page 39.]

Much confusion surrounded the Highgate Vampire case when it first hit the headlines. This was due in part to fear, foolishness and fraud. The latter was (and still is) orchestrated by someone known at that time as "Allan," but whose actual Christian name is David.

“Allan,” having been made homeless following his eviction from a nearby flat in 1969, sought refuge in someone’s coal cellar. Partial to alcohol, “Allan” would later be arrested and held on remand for shenanigans not entirely unrelated to his drinking in August 1970. A handful of months before the arrest, he wrote to his local newspaper, at the behest of the person whose cellar he now occupied, to declare that he had seen a ghostly figure some nights as he “walked home past the gates of Highgate Cemetery.” Thus he became one of the many people I interviewed, and was included among those briefly interviewed in the press and on television throughout 1970. There is an obvious flaw in his overture to the press in as much as it is physically impossible to “walk home” from any of the pubs he frequented in Highgate Village and pass by the cemetery gates in Swains Lane. Any map of the area will confirm his cellar lodgings in Archway Road to be located in a completely opposite direction. But, then, “Allan” was less than serious when he wrote his letter. Indeed, the exercise was an attention-seeking prank. To that end, I suppose it succeeded. I learned these facts later from the person who had offered his cellar to “Allan.”

It would seem that “Allan” had discussed faking a news story with his new landlord. It was decided to invent a story about the escape and recapture of his macaw, Oliver, now in the care of someone else. This was hardly original. “Goldie” the eagle had escaped from London Zoo in 1965, only to be later recaptured. This became a national news story at the time. “Allan” thought he had found a bandwagon on which to catch a ride. The other person, unimpressed by the Oliver story, jokingly suggested a fake suicide attempt from Archway Bridge with a no less bogus “rescue.” This, too, was unoriginal because a news story about the actor and comedian Peter Sellers persuading a depressed person (about to jump off Archway Bridge) from committing suicide had also made the headlines. While “Allan” was thinking about how to go about manufacturing one or possibly both stories, he heard rumours of an alleged vampire in Highgate Cemetery on his visits to the Prince of Wales and various other pubs in the area.

The escaped bird and fake suicide attempt stories were ditched. “Allan” was determined to exploit the three-year-old word-of-mouth reports of a vampire by writing a letter to the editor of the Hampstead and Highgate Express in early 1970, ending with the frank admission: “I have no knowledge in this field and I would be interested to hear if any other readers have seen anything of this nature.”

Readers of the newspaper were certainly able to confirm plenty of sightings. The Highgate phenomenon was a story about to snowball. This had the unfortunate effect of dragging me into the forefront of something I had decided hitherto to keep a lid on. I felt that it was incumbent upon me to make some sort of statement in view of all the readers’ comments. Thus, on 27 February 1970, following batches of readers’ letters, I appeared on the front page to summarise the view of the British Occult Society and the newly-formed Vampire Research Society. It did not make easy reading. Two weeks later, I featured on Thames Television’s Today programme for the same purpose.

The rest, as they say, is history.



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VAMPARIAH
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17:39:52 Dec 11 2006
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mmmph, mmmmmph, (struggle struggle)

I never was banned from the forum when I was Vampyreinthesun99, and I was really irreverant back then, so I guess I must have done something really really bad.


fiction and fact acomplish the same mission

fict and fact, so it boils down to the differrence between the letter "i" and "a".

fiction safely talks about the truth in a format where people think the plot is not part of reality. Everything stems from reality, and the further you go into vampirism, you see that life is either made up of born vampires, made vampires, vampire makers (demons), and people who don't have a clue. There are also angels. And I am sure the cast of characters in this "FIX SHUN" plot have different stereotypical roles which I cannot assign a name.



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PrettySamantha
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18:12:51 Dec 11 2006
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Ok here is a new question...what do you do or say to people who claim to be vampires, but you know are not even close???


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FelixFelix
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19:46:04 Dec 11 2006
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mcrgurl16 said "Ok here is a new question...what do you do or say to people who claim to be vampires, but you know are not even close???"

Well in anyone's claim of vampirism, you have only their word to go on (unless you know something the rest of the world doesn't). And since proof of vampirism is at this point impossible, it would seem that every case of self proclaimed vampires are cases of personal belief or faith. That means you can't say much unless you wish to call into question EVERY belief of vampirism.



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CTyler
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19:58:10 Dec 11 2006
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To that question, I would think "bring out the straightjackets", but what to say, what to say...

I don't think there is much to say. If they were joking, that's one thing. But if they are serious, whether or not they are, nothing one can say will change their mind. "The mad do not realize they are mad" it is said, and telling them they are would do little good.

Other than that, there are still the issue that everybody seems to have their definition of Vampire. For some, blood drinking is enaugh. Some claim photosensitivity is a symptom of vampirism. Hell, even I've got pronounced canines.
If immortality isn't a requirement anymore, then...



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FelixFelix
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20:07:21 Dec 11 2006
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"the only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad" - Salvador Dali...thus proving that madness is really a question of perception.

However, I will at least agree that with the requirements for the definition of vampire to be an ever lowering bar, one can hardly argue facts with anyone who espouses their belief unless they begin to make claims which can in fact be proven wrong. As long as the claims are also a question of perception, the validity of their faith can either be accepted or not, but little in the way of debate will move forward much the same with any other religion.



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VAMPARIAH
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14:10:20 Dec 12 2006
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Salvador Dali is one of the artists I have written about, and in the interviews I have done his behavior is erratic and almost childish at an advanced age. Towards the end he designed bathrobes made of terry cloth, and my father photographed him on the beach. My father said take off the suit and tie, and Dali said no "I am going to wear my pink robe over it."


He made have thought he was not crazy, but my father took the one picture of him and then left him and his melted clocked on the beach alone. Society never used the photographs because, basically he had flipped and society as a whole had recognized it.

To answer McrGurl's redirection.

Well there are the real vampires and then the ones whom act like vampires. They are merely at different stages. They both claim to be, but one is further on the path than the other. You will be pleased to know the more you act like vampires the quicker you turn into them.

It is a madness of sorts, but mad is a relative term, if you can make what you do look like someone else might want to try it, then you have made vampirism the ultimate fashion statement and you are not a crazed old man in a pink terry cloth robe on a beach ready to die alone.



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Sevenn
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15:43:02 Dec 12 2006
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With all due respect, if there is another entirely separate question here, please start another thread in order that this one stays on track. Thank you.



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FelixFelix
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21:49:40 Dec 12 2006
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To bring this all full circle, i guess, and to answer both questions, fact vs fiction is a question of perception unless you want to begin asking for irrevocable proof of any supernatural event and being. So you never know if someone who claims to be a vampire is in fact 'nothing close to one' and you really couldn't say anything about it unless you wished to argue faith and belief which is rarely successful.

Vampire fact and fiction are easily swung back and forth across different legends and myths and personal beliefs because what one person believes to be fact, another believes to be fiction.



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Twixel
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13:24:41 Dec 13 2006
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It is hard to make non-believers undertand what a vampire really is. They automatically assume that if u are a vampire then u like to kill and that u are evil. I for one do not believe that all vampires are eveil but that they do what they must to survive.



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UpirLikhyj
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17:44:00 Dec 13 2006
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While true that over the course of the past thousand years, there have been so many different legends, stories, and depictions of vampires, thus making it next to impossible to determine what the truth might have been. Frankly, the same can also be said of the truths re: religions, heroes of the past, and/or any significant influence on modern-day society and culture. After all, look at how much has been written re: Jesus (called "Christ"). What is the truth? And what is fiction?

However, as with all such historical questions, truth can be discerned from fiction to some extent if we first seek out whatever oldest primary source materials can be discovered. Only then can the clearest picture of all relevant facts together with their historical and sociological contexts be best evaluated and discerned.

And where the Slavic Vampire is concerned (the archetypal "vampire" of history), one must begin where first the term "Vampire" appears: 1046 CE in the person of the Novgorodian Orthodox Christian priest "Father Vampire..." (Pop Upir'...). His existence is beyond dispute as also is his name, from whence we today have the word "vampire," as well as the fact that he was both Christian and a mortal, two distinct traits that immediately contradict and, thus, dispel two of the more prolific fictiious traits of the modern definition of "vampire."

Much more can likewise be determined re: what originally constituted a "vampire" if sought out in the same manner.

Thus, to say that just because today there are so many different views, legends, and fictions re: vampires does not at all mean that truth or fiction is not possible to discover, thus relegating all such inquiry to the unsatisfactory arena of superstition and religious faith.



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FelixFelix
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21:55:47 Dec 13 2006
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Upir - I understand your point. You're looking at the historical context of the etymology of the word vampire and how those early / 'original' legends began.

The point I'm making is that there are new definitions being pushed for vampire. I believe the original poster of this thread is a self proclaimed modern vampire (sang right?). How that relates to a priest in Novgorod I have no idea. But both could be factual without with having to cancel the other out.

Look at the term B-boy or B-girl...in current language or slang that term can mean 'break boy or break girl' but the original usage of B-girl (in 1936) was for a 'bar-girl' who was employed by bars to convince patrons to buy her a drink thereby spending money at the bar. Both are correct and both are true but one clearly has historical precedence.



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meeper
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01:57:25 Dec 14 2006
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definitions change throughout time as the ones with power in turn become the definers. plus there is evolution into different forms. the historical context of where and what the term "vampire" meant originally can and has altered.

as to how that relates to fact v. fiction, i'm sure some of the old folklore play into it, but relatively recent creation of hollywood and mass publication of books have also been instrumental in crafting the vampire image.



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VAMPARIAH
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02:07:43 Dec 14 2006
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what does CE stand for Uber?



Uber by the way is German for like "ultra" or "chic" in someways, do not think it was slander on you. I hold you in high regard, and you have brought much to the table in terms of discerning fact from fiction, by going back to the beginning.








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andaluz
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02:27:53 Dec 15 2006
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Back to the point of the thread, not disrespect intended, I've yet to find a way to explain who I am to those around me. I work in a VERY sensitive atmosphere as an educator. There have been only one or two people I have trusted with my true self. VR has been a life saver to express my feelings and a great learning tool.



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Danaxii
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04:36:48 Dec 15 2006
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There is no deffinative that states there is one type of vampire difinitively



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campeador6de6eternus6patientia
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06:51:16 Dec 15 2006
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my advice would be not to try to explain anything to a nonbeliever, unless you believe that person could be open minded enough to or respectful enough to consider what you tell them. too many people are quick to just criticize you, or act immaturely about the whole thing, which is where most of the falsehoods come from, and who needs to be bothered with that?



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Vampirologist
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07:42:35 Dec 15 2006
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I have said it before, I will say it again:

To those who accept the existence of vampires no explanation is necessary; to those who do not, no explanation will suffice.



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ButterflyxTemptress
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08:00:18 Dec 15 2006
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I must say that makes sense. There will always be a skeptic. People want to believe what they read and see on tv. If it dosnt fit that mold they question it. Each person has there own gifts,likes,dislikes. I dont believe there is a set style.



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VR System
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08:00:18 Dec 15 2006
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This thread has been automatically closed for length.



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• • • • THIS THREAD IS CLOSED • • • •
•  Closed by VR System on Dec 15 2006  •

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