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What does it take to be experienced as a magick user?

Some would say that they have been practising for years....does this make them an authority in magick and witchcraft?

I personally do not believe it does.

Many users of the crafts have said that they know a lot because they have been practising for a very long time. I find this amusing as in my opinion it matters not how long you have been casting/practising for. What matters is how much research you have done, and how much you have learnt by casting spells.

I personally have been practising magicks for around 20 years or so. This in no way makes me an authority on magick and or witchcraft. I have, however, been researching a lot more than I have been actively practising the magick. I make sure that I know as much about my work as I possibly can before casting any spells.

Some say that paganism is the best magick, but in my opinion the more ancient magicks seem more powerful and much more satisfying. I also believe that as you serve a god/goddess you are limited somewhat to what you are/are not allowed to do.

I have seeen threads on the three fold lore (a subject I am sceptical about, and many know my views), I have seen threads about Karma (again I am sceptical). I have seeen thread about wiccan, druidic, satanic and high magicks, and yet they fail to notice that they all serve a higher being. They must conform to the regime set out to them by others or by their respective deity.

This actually holds them in a place that stunts their growth as a user of the arts.

Magick, to me, is the art of creating changes in the world by force of will.

I tend to practise chaos magicks and astral magicks as I find them more to my liking. This is because in Chaos Magick there is no deity or being in which you should believe or serve, therefore your room for growth is not stunted in any way.

I wonder why it is that someone who has been practising pagan magicks for many years (for example 45-50 years) could actually believe that they would know more about the magicks that I use than I.....

Further to that notion, I have met up with other users of the art that actually agree that those who stick to one particular path cannot possibly understand the fundamentals of true magick. And therefore do not really KNOW magick truly.

I was once asked to join the order of the golden dawn but refused as their way or working with magick was not really to my tastes. Does this mean that I know magick? Not really, it just means that I was invited to join a magickal association (albeit the most widely known one).

I have had conversations with many users of the art, and all seem to have differing opinions on what magick is and the way that magick should, in their opinion, be performed.

In my opinion, this just proves the fact that nobody really knows magick, they can only ever form an opinion of what magick is and then maybe act on that opinion.

That is certainly true for me, and I have found that I welcome the opinions of others, whether they conflict with my own or not.

To finish, I would like to know other peoples views on what Magick is, how their views have influenced the way in which they practise magick, and how long they have been practising magicks.

Thank you for reading this lengthy post. I am sure there will be some excellent answers and I look forward to reading them.

Mener

well, it's very interesting... 20 years in magick... that's a long time.
Well, i agree with you I don't think that for being an authority you need years of practice... not only that.

I mean, the most important is if you have the gift or not... if you believe in what you do... i know that words are a strong tool if you believe...

so maybe the mix of experience and belief could be a good thing...

Knowing magick means, knowing one self first.


cuz, the Self, is made out of magick.


It is a technical knowledge.

To pay attention to the machine and what else it is capable of.

Once you learn it, you use it.

Knowing ones self is one of the aspects of knowing magick.
But just to know yourself....is that really enough or is there more?

Personally i think you have to do lots of research into all aspects of magick, know yourself, be confident, cast spells and learn from them before you can possibly say that you know your own magick. To know all magick you must cast all magicks, to know yourself, you must allow your inner demons to burst out aswell as your inner calms.

Sounds realistic.

Ooops, I failed to mention that you also need to take into consideration other peoples views on magick/the occult/esoteric as otherwise you can never really hope to know magick at all.

Thanks for your post, I value your opinion.

Mener

I agree that the magick starts with the self, you have to know your own gifts and abilities. The things you need to work on and your weakness, strengths, etc.

You can start straight away, but it is important you know what your doing. You don't go jumping head first into a lake without checking the depth and for obstacles that can break your neck and kill you right? Well its the same with magick! Its important to study, research and put what you have learnt into some practice with minor experiements. Starting off small of course. There is no point in just researching, until you test the theory.

The rest of it is mind over matter, if you have doubts or negative thoughts nothing will work the way you want. You have to be clear and precise.

I have been using and practising for some time, and I know I will go to my grave and still not know everything there is to know. But it won't stop me from researching and learning.

For me magick would be simple using energy to a specific end. I think that the strength of the magick would depend only on the srength and faith of the person practicing it. Therefore someone who has not been practicing long could be just as good at it as someone that has been practicing for say fifty years. Someone that has studied magick for a long time would definatley know more about magick that someone who hasn't studied as much or at all. The person who knows alot about magick would not necessary be better at magick than anyone else.

Yes Mener, I beleive that that is the only aspect and wich we should know(who we really are), and wich will perfectly suffice, beacuse all these thing came out of one place, out of ones inner(and we know there is a whole universe in side).


The whole magick comes from there only.

Thankyou for the comments everyone. I would just liek to say that I am not asking about who is more powerful than the other or how we can judge whether we are more powerful than another, power is not the key point here. Knowledge is the key point here.

Some say that knowledge is power and that the pen is mightier than the sword etc etc. I don't think this is true to form. The pen is only really mightier than the sword if you have the vocabulary to write the mightier words down and what if the ink runs out??? As for the phrase "knowledge is power" well that is only true to form if you have the brain capacity to assimilate the knowledge correctly.

Mener

Simply being able to assimulate all this knowledge isn't enough either if one isn't capable of putitng it together into a working form.

Many have the knowledge and are learned individuals ... but their lack of ability in doing what they say they have learned about is a very different matter altogether.

and that's all I'll say on it 'cause it lead to flaming on another site.

You are very humble and not arrogant in the least, and that's something that I value very highly.
20 years is a lengthy time, and time is pointless. It measures nothing. It doesn't matter. The amount of time one has practiced magick should not be taken into account when measuring one's ability.
One may have said that they been practicing for 50 years, but left out the fact that it has been off and on. Therefore, someone who has only been practicing 20 or so years diligently and studiously may have a greater knowledge, thus be superior.

If you agree to serve a god or goddess through magicks, there is no superior but the one you serve.

KathryynKrypt

Thankyou for your post. You certainly seem to have grasped the idea of this thread firmly (as have others whom have posted). Thankyou very much for your post, i appreciate it very much.

I would not call myself humble, but nor would i say that I am all knowing. Anybody who says they are all knowing is either very foolish or a liar (no offence to anyone).

I hope this thread continues to grow in the way it seems to be. I value everyones opinions highly. Opinions are knowledge, knowledge helps me to grow.

Mener

If not humble, then certainly realistic...
And it is true, if anyone actually believes they are omniscient then they are a fool.

To answer your first question... in my opinion, a experienced magick user is not only someone who has done the research and is knowledgable on the subject.. It is also someone who has used Magick and acheived their desired outcome.

I know a lot of people that constantly read books, and study up on the different ways of approaching using your Will to effect reality(I use the term loosely)... and yet there are very few who I know personally, that actually apply the knowledge. An Experienced practitioner of the Arts is someone who is both knowledgable, and applies what he/she knows.

I personally spent a lot of my earlier years using my Will to manipulate outcomes, before I even started reading about it. For me, the reading became necessary when to many things got out of control, and started effecting my family and people around me. I'm not saying I "cursing" people or anything of the sort. Rather, my uncontrolled actions rippled out and had impacts where I didn't want it to.

So, I just want to reiterate again and again... and Experienced Will Worker is someone who knows their Art, and applies that knowledge. =D

As a side note, I wasn't trying to get into saying How, Why, or When such things will work. I re-read some other posts, and it seems that a lot of people are going into what they believe magick is, and how it works. I'm sure that threads been up before, but I'd love to see it again. Its always beneficial(in my mind) to learn who other people view their Art. If nothing else, it helps you get a broader scope of how to work your Will, how to focus, and how to find that elusive "means to an end."

i have friends who had cast spells on me and i dont feel them.. nore do any thing what they say the spell is...

is that saying im not a believer of magic spells

I'd say the fact that your allowing people to attempt casting spells on you is a clear indication that you at least WANT to believe in them. But if your looking for short term proof that magick exists, I doubt your going to find it. I've never seen someone do a spell that had an immediate effect, outside of Wind, Rain, and illusionary sorts. =D

I, I, I, eye ye eye...

It doesn't matter what form, amount of time, or personal flavor you care for your magic to be in. You do it, then you must know it and be good at it. Your results are the only judge of your skill.

If you are not intending of showing it off or teaching it, then you are the master of it--for you. I would say give yourself a personal congrats and live your life.

If I was to practice conventional witchcraft I would certainly not be initiating any pissing contests for it.

EverythingGoesSour

Thankyou for your posts. That is exactly my point. I have also been using a form of will magick, chaos magick is very rewarding for me as it is possible to literally formulate and cast a spell using nothing but will and imagination. The iamgination is to formulate the spell and decide what i would like the outcome to be.

I have done a lot of research into things such as sumerian religions and their associated magicks, egyptian magicks and some aspects of their religions.

I use the same method to perform astral projection so as to learn more efficiently. If researching something particularly time consuming, I sometimes use astral and ethereal projection to aid me.

I would be honoured to chat to you about your work sometime. Please feel free to message me anytime.

Mener

I have a lot of resources I can send to you in PDF form, especially if your into Runic/Glyph magick. For me, its a great tool to focus on my projected outcome, but... well, I find it highly restrictive too.

I'd love to chat about practice and theory, anytime. =D By and large, I have over 400 documents/books on the subject. As I said in my previous post, I was working my Will on the realities around me before I fully understood what I was doing, and the possible outcomes. Now, I make it a point(in MOST cases), to check and double check things. Especially when it comes to Spirit Trafficing, and dealing with entities. Which.. if the question ever came up, obviously awnsers it.. Yes, I believe in Ghosts. XD

Great to meet ya Mener, and looking forward to discussion. But my resounding cry, as always: Low Expectations. We'll keep it simple to start. ;)

I'm on the side of EverythingGoesSour; i had the same issues growing up, using the energies 1st, then when things spun out of control, read up on what the &^%$ i was doing.

people come to magick in their own way, kinda like religion. some feel a need to serve a higher form, some are independant, doing their own dang thing, some stick to spells, some just manipulate the energies to their will. some people live in the fear of the power of 3, some believe in karma, it all depends on what makes "sense" to you.

i don't think there's one "right" or wrong way...many paths, similiar destinations.

Knowing magick means, knowing one self first.

an opinion, and a road. like i said hereforth, hop on a different plane, but we're all heading to the same city.

i say any transcended and self-aware person takes the time to know themselves. it is a rare bird who doesn't; i mean, after all, we live with ourselves and think our own thoughts.

Condrats Mener on an Awesome thread.

For me I have been working with magickal arts for 18 years. Different systems spending days on end just researching on notion after another, to what culminates in the different things I know.

For me to say I am an experienced magick user is to say I have an intuitive understanding of how I percieve myself, and the world at large. Its not so much I bow down to one concept over another, but that I am aware of the cycles in the microcosm and macrocosm of my being and thus the relations between me and other things.

I hold very much to the hermetic structure on the laws of magick. I have a patron goddess force which i work for. I am also free reign to do as I please but so long as it serves balance. I make no arguments that nothing doesn't serve something else. I serve myself and my interests, and when the situation demands it, i serve the interests of the those spiritual forces from which i have related and linked my personal power with. Having gone through the spiritual trials, and physical trials to learn my art. I have studied everything i have come across trying to expand my own cosmology.

There are still a great many things I will never know. That is what I have the rest of my life attempting to learn however. As a pagan I will do what i can for the earth and such my Lady, but I will do so in any means I see fit using any power I have in which to be able to secure said ends.

So for me its the old forgotten magicks, the ones what don't have the restrictions and trappings of morality that limit the path of the spirit. Because I work with such a figurehead whom balances out my own purposes, it doesn't stop me from learning and growing with the things i know to expand and grow as an individual.

amen and very well said.

for me magick and the practice of magicks is a state of mind and a way of creation actions and reactions,one is only as powerfull as they let themselves be, for you cannot read a closed book.
i am a strong believer in the universal unison of magick and tend not to go with one path nor the other

Iv been practicing well I found magic as a kid, we lived next to some stones in England where regular rituals are performed…. I found a book of shadows and latter met the woman who left it… she felt I was chosen.
My mum was also heavily involved .. well people in her more like she had extreme visions asleep and considered clairvoyant of sorts… she didn’t make sense half the time … still love her to death thou.

I found a article one day in a discarded mag about the text called the ban and I started to use it to write cool looking letters and some wiccans warned me of the three fold … I laughed then as I do now “it don’t make sense”
Still I got deeper into it and I agree im still learning as I progress more and more on my own steam.
Im a little more than 20 years and agree were just learning and just messengers only of the great understanding.
Just like shamanism around the world with no link saw the same creatures n spirits so do us magic users have the same idea’s and paths in the end

"...matters not how long you have been casting/practicing for. What matters is how much research you have done, and how much you have learned by casting spells..." (sp corrected)
Does this not mean experience? And to be an authority in anything means you must have experience in that particular field and most likely cross fields for comparative purposes. As for research of today I see far too many using nothing but google which spreads internet trash. The books available to the public now are different than they were twenty years ago, and they were different still from the ones available forty years, etc. The numbers of years one put into study and experience will always out-weigh and outshine one who does not. Teenagers will always think they know more than adults. The adults can only wait until the teenagers use their eyes to see instead of their mouths.

I am amazed when I find rudeness in anyone's forum thread. Do you go to someone's house and insult them? My unsolicited advice...Play nice or don't play.

A belief is just that...a belief. Regardless of what someone's belief is, it is their belief. I for one do not practice magick. It has never been a point of interest to me. But, I do respect the beliefs of others.

Thank you for an informative thread that has opened my eyes to a new topic for me to study.

Rudeness will and has been deleted.
Yes, play nice.
~ billy

Practice, Practice, Practice....

i will agree that research is one aspect and partaking in casting spells is another personally i ty to research as much as i can and i still dont consider myself good enough with 15 years maybe i will never know enough but the best part for me will be to gain the knowledge and understanding of it all through alot of patience and persisitance

it depends on what kind of magic you are doin,,,,,,,

to be a Elder in Magic or One who is a Upper doesnot require many years of training but how much info You retain from Your learning and How much experience You have in doing so i would think not by a number of years

For me, knowing magick is knowing myself, and I feel this will be a neverending lesson. As for Deity, I call upon the Gods/esses for guidance on my life's path..but I do not ask for Them to aid my magick as my will is my own.
As far as being more adept or knowledgable than anyone else, I'd prefer to judge my own personal growth and abilities instead of comparing myself to someone else. I know that I have much to learn and always will.

personally i think that magicks are to be learned/researched before you use them i have practiced magick since i was about 8/9 years old but have known and was learning about magicks form the age of 6 and i still have a long way to go before i know all ther is to know (i will probably never know all there is to know) but in my opinion if you research and learn before casting this could save you from making the little mistakes that others need to correct we all have our talents and gifts and i say use them to the best of your ability and be true to yourself and all should go well.

There are peple i know who have been practicing for less time than i who have a greater knowledge than i do myself and i don't envy them their gifts it is good to find people who take time to read and then put to practice their gifts insted of some out there who seem to think that all you need is a spellbook to be a witch.

I can pull a rabbit out of my trousers...that's about the extent of my magik

I'm still not what many would call EXPERINCED! in the art! I am young and still have much to learn but I am having many second thoughts on my comitment to the art I am not sure what I will do sorry i can't contribute. but perhaps you can help me. who knows?

I agree with the majority here. It does matter how much you study and practise, it also matters how much you learn from that. I also agree that it is important to know yourself well, but there is one key point that only a few have made.

This is the fact that it's one thing to learn and cast. It's another thing to fully understand.

Thankyou everyone for keeping this topic alive and please continue to post. I have already learnt a lot from those that have posted, I am sure I will learn more.

Mener

EverythingGoesSour

I have a lot of pdf files on my pc that deal with various aspects of magick and the occult. Maybe sometime we can get together and compare notes. It would be interesting to see where you pull your resources from.

Mener

U may find some information to help u here : www.Onenightspirit.com . It is mainly about magic, astrology, History.
I am always looking to trade info with like minded people.

Anyone can learn magick. It's every where. But to be able to use magick you have to feel it in yourself. It's not wave your finger turn your brother into a frog type of thing. It's a gift that was given to us all that has to be awakened. If you follow a book you won't learn all that is needed to know. You have to search yourself and find your own way because we are all different and we practice different.
We learn in many ways and we all feel power in endless ways. You just have to open yourself to life and take it from there......

very interesting mener.

i have a wicca friend and she says she knows alot about magic..im starting to learn the protection one..

People may say they know a lot about magick, but that does not mean they know magick truly.

If they know about one or two types of magick then great, but knowing just a little magick is nothing compared to knowing magick properly.

Mener

Catalunah

Thanks very much for your post. I too sometimes wonder how I know things that I do know, and also research into these sorts of things.

I have found that many things that dwell within my mind are from past lives or astral research however.

Mener

I think it is knowledge and practical use.

Practicing magick is just that...a practice.

doing it - getting involved, rather than just reading about it - that is what experience means

i have friends who had cast spells on me and i dont feel them.. nore do any thing what they say the spell is...

is that saying im not a believer of magic spells

heh, your friends' skills suck arse if you feel nothing. good magick, properly done magick, works and is felt.

i honestly didnt put a lot of faith into magic until about 2 years ago. im a science person and i like to have a tangible thing when i can. i was involoved in magic but i thought its power was more involved in a power of suggestion and will power. you know, when you think something will happen it does because your subconscious has you working towards the goal.

but i ran across an experiment that might actually prove that magic isnt all in people minds. i was watching 'what the bleep do we know?' and the experiment was that they wrote words on bottles of water. the words were emotions like happy, sad, angry, blah, blah, blah... anyways, they flash froze the water and took pictures of the ice cyrstals. each emotion had a different alinement of crystals.

if just the writing of an emotion can effect the way molecules line up, imagine how full on concentrated emotion could effect it.

I have not STUDIED magic EVER, but i am a quite skilled magician. Unless you have the foundation with being magic yourself, one can never become a magician in the soul, only preform from a book. I hate to sound so "holier than thou" and it is not my intention at all, but one needs to have magic in ones blood to experience it truly.

Where to start this is very interesting because I have heard of some that are taught by books. Others have the gift of majik naturally. I myself believe that the first thing that someone should know is themselves, should they not know themselves how can they be able to succeed in majik?

Personally I am always learning a lot of different things even with my being a natural. I think that its best to always be of an open mind as when you are there are more things that you can learn about it. I am glad that this thread was made because it is one quite interesting and two it has shown me by the posts of the ones who have posted that they are of an open mind and willing to not only learn but better themselves.

Thanks for another interesting subject.

Cobalt

i think no matter how much we may know we are ever learning......

the more you research the more you know, knowledge is everything when it comes to magic, it is definitely not about casting or practising, i mean i can sit here and say i have been practising for so many years, but i wont, what i can say is this, i have been researching magic for more than 7 years and i know quite a bit about it, that is the key to it all, read, read read

bump i love it when some one copys your post..... i love to learn magic and it may take me forever ...

Billy

I would like to thank you for such an interesting post. I agree with what you have said, and find your story of the dragonfly very interesting.

Blessed Be

Mener

Cobalt

I would just like to say that it is a pleasure to provide such an opportunity, not only for you and others, but also for myself.

In opening ones mind more to other thoughts on such subjects, one finds that there is more to learn than meets the eye.

Mener

I believe knowing ones self is the fundamental basics of one journey when embarking on magick practices, thats where it all begins, you have to know your abilities and limitations first. I would sumize that to do that one must study every aspect of magick available and find what suits their personal abilities. Knowledge is the beginning of power and power comes threw experience. I personally have practiced chaos magick for 22 years and I am an Adept, I am currently an enforcer for a wiccan order however I am not a full blown wiccan persae. I have read many works that are listed on my profile and even some not listed on my profile. I would agree that just cause someone is a wiccan for 20 years doesnt make them an authority, however if they study and practikce on a daily bases and refine their abilities they will quickly become an authority in what they endevor. Alot of magick is ritual based however a true and skilled caster can project their will in such abilities as the evil eyes without all the mumbo jumbo if they really know how to channel energy.

Wraith

I think you do make a lot of sense. I don't think it is the amount that you practice either but how open you are to the forces that are out there to tap into and the knowledge you have to do whatever type of magick it is you are using

For some, length of time equates to research and knowledge. It is not always the case, but chances are someone who has been practicing for 20 years will know more than someone who has just recently started their journey.

i think it starts out with how much natural power you have then experience

some people try and some people fail it all depends on the person and how u do things

You have to be at one with yourself and focus

I agree with ya hun, just saying one has been practing for years, makes nobody an expert by any means.
In whatever someone does, nobody can know everything in the whole universe on the subject, only a fool believes that.
It does take just practice and the ability to learn more and experiment on one's own constantly.I believe we have no limitations in magicks, only if we think we do...then of course one is lost.
But to try new ways and acquire more information is the way i think.

this hole thing about magic i thought that magic is something that is done by magicans for show by ilousion but some cases magic is part of peoples religion but is it really real i dont no but i just wanted to give my opion

Unless there is anyone else who wishes to comment I am ready now to close this thread.

I will allow a further 24 hours then if there are no more comments I will close it.

Thanks to everyone who posted here, your thoughts and comments have been very helpful.

Mener

i agree that practicing magic for many years does not necessarily make you a good magician, but then again just because one has spent many years in research does not make a great magician either. it takes both. you need experience - knowledge alone means nothing. you cannot know magic just by reading a book, and you cannot understand something merely by doing it.

true wisdom requires a ballance.

Thankyou everyone for your comments. I am now closing this thread.

Mener