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It is my belief that magic and science are two sides of the same coin. They are both means to the same end. Magic is natural, harder and it takes longer to master while science is a short cut - a cheat to the same goals. Just imagine what could be done if magic and science were to be combined. Imagine what could be accomplished. Imagine what wonders as well horrors could be unleashed.

well I feel that if the two are combined in creating something good it would be wonderful, yet as you say the flip of the coin and it could be very deadly and create something devastating. not sure if I would want anyone to mix the 2 LOL! humm very interesting concept....

well in my opinion if we combind both together there would be alot of truths comming forth as to what really happened concerning the big bang therory or aliens and other stuff they don't want you to know that have been proven fact but labled fiction

I agree with that theUnknown we as a society and government would and could be put in jeopardy because the Fiction would and could be proven as facts and well of couse they do not want us to have that knowledge or control over them .. we would become too / more independant as a society. yet then the government would lose control of the country and well that is where the Chaos would bein ... In their minds eye that is. who knows unless they actually let the truth out.

Consider also, how do you define magic, or science?

There is a quote I read somewhere (can't remember the source, unfortunately): sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic.

Meaning of course, that the more high tech your science gets, the more streamlined and wireless and what not, the more it starts to resemble "magic".

And of course in that case the reverse would also be true: sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from science.

As it has been said I agree completely with every statement made ...
I find that the use of both within itself will be a great thing if used for the good of all.. However they can and do destroy if used for bad purposes...

When science is drawn into magic it seems that the more science you use the more likely the magic is gone and the effects just from the science instead..

Three are some pretty solid opinions here.I would certainly like to hear more of them in the nature of majick thread.:)

I see true magic as nothing but will power. The trickery magic you see in the circus and whatnot is not true magic, and might have a drop of science in it. True magic in my opinion, is nearly the complete opposite of science. In light of that, I doubt they can possibly be combined.

I dont see how they can. Science is studing and finding out the facts where magic is something that is unknown.

Ok,so with that being said ,what type of energy would you say majick is? Nothing but willpower? Forgive my ignorance here,but it seems tyo me that there are two elements at work here..one being the energy itself,two being the will that would manipulate it.

The so called 'energy' of magic goes hand-in-hand with the will-power you put in it. Something I've always said is -- "If you really wanna see stars right in front of your face...simply imagine it while walking head-on into a pole."


I see magic as the imagination of a really desperate and insane person that WANTS to see it/feel it/whatever. No offense to any of the Wiccans and Wizards here and whatever else have you..

I understand what your saying,thanks for explaining.

Magik is defined as any act designed to cause intentional change. Chemistry is a specific science in which in change one type of matter into another form of the four types of matter which is plasma, liquid, gas and solid. Actions cause and create change and what is magik but a spell, words? How can these be related? You must have an action to create a reaction. Change is reaction.

The way I see these things such as Magic and God and all of that is -- If you believe in it, it's there..if you don't, it's not. Just as simple as that.


If you believe in it however, it doesn't mean it exists and everyone else believes it and knows it's real. Magic is not Gravity..it's Magic. So as long as YOU believe in it...it will work..but only for YOU and also against you..and anyone else who believes in it.


One way to prove it's not real though is if you set some huge Indian Tribe...tootsie curse on me, it won't work...because I don't believe in that stuff. If you throw me off a building though, I WILL fly down and die as soon as I meet the ground..because Gravity -is- there and you can't do anything about it but accept it and know it's real.



That's how you seperate fact from belief.

....such argumentitive statements from the position a youth who wouldn't believe that someone one would shoot him dead, actually shot him.

The prime example of the "it cant happen to me generation". So blind and ignorant, mediocre and caught up in the what cannot be, because they haven't had to work for it. Handed down from nintendo to xbox. Not remembering what its like to live with out the mighty internet.

Magick is what shapes reality, that thing, which when defined, cannot be defined, by yet, by its use, the envrionment is changed in accordence with the will of the one doing the percieving. Sciences, Ritual format, any repeated behaviors which cause desired change, down to something as simple as brushing ones teeth, or wiping of ones backside after they drop a load off in the toilet. Things that change the world, for the greater, or the smaller spheres.

That is what magick is, its not flashy stage shit, and its not just chemistry and dry science. Those are aspects, it wouldn't be what it is if limited only to those. It would not have endured thousands of years of methodology, and study. Best if you feel such things, you run back to your friends, and live in a mediocre world of denial where you expect anything interesting to flash before you like a televison show on the idiot box.

I believe they are both completely different. They both go against each other.

Science and magick are coming closer and closer every year as more breakthroughs are made in physics. To combine the two completely, though, would require some way to measure the metaphysical using physical means. Much of the scientific community is discovering the power of thought and will, but there is no way to measure it yet. There is still no way for a machine to measure subtle energies. When someone discovers a way to detect the metaphysical world and measure it via physical means, then magick and science will have been successfully combined.

I've noticed I say "measure" a lot. I should read over my messages before posting them...

And to continue, perhaps something could be done with brainwaves, etc. as a way to penetrate the metaphysical using physical machines...

I believe there have been cases of MRI's and similar recording brain function during precognitive episodes in recognised psychics. They definiately showed increased or different brain activity. I'm sure I've read that. I'll have to hunt it out.

In addition to the above note, I've found a research paper, the precis of which is what I remember, but unfortunately can't find a full copy on the net.

Charles T. Tart, A Case of Predictive Psi, with Comments on Analytical, Associative and Theoretical Overlay.

So if anyone can find a full copy, that would be great.

There are a few scientists on VR that also are magick users. I am one.

Science has shown through the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle that tiny amounts of energy can affect matter.

Magick is the use of will to affect a probability outcome. The magick user's willpower can generate some amount of energy. Several magick users in concert can generate a much greater amount of energy when working in unison. The greater the amount of energy generated and collected by the magick user(s) for their spell, will allow a larger probabilistic effect. Magick can then come about through the principles of Quantum Mechanics to make one outcome more possible by use of will and desire to influence it.
I would say on the quantum level science and magick are very close relatives. This bridge is difficult to make as most scientists will have nothing to do with magick or magick users as it is not at this point codifiable or quantifiable to their satisfaction so is avoided as being fuzzy thinking, but that is exactly what it is the fuzzy math of quantum mechanics. :)

Theres no denying that magic was used in the dark ages. Im almost positive they ddint have physics. So where did their power come from. The more we learn from that, the better the idea of science/magic combination comes to fruition

Thank you for that post Platinumwitch!
Great posts on your end too Drakonion.And that parer you are talking about,I might have a link to that at home.I will look for it .

That would be fabulous Oceanne!

As to science and magic working together, I know it can happen, as I've used them in combination before. I think it depends on your mindset really as to what you will use.

If you're open enough to new ideas or new methods of work, then it's not unbelievable that you will use scientific concepts.

The horrors would be great among those who misused the knowledge.

I have never thought of that before. I is sort of frightening to thing about what could happen if someone actually did that.

In response to Infernalmage, who I think tried to use some "wise" words to belittle me and other "youth" greatly, I will tell you one thing...


The so called "youth" you seem to look down upon, is growing up and living in a better time than you lived in. We live in a more advanced time..in a more enlightened time. You are in the wrong time period to try and belittle us. You are the has-beens, not us.


It's 2008 bud. Time to start using your head instead of your mis-education on "magic" and your not so wise..."wise" words.


This goes to all of the "wise" ones on this site. Looking down on the youth is an extremely bad idea. Ever heard of something called Evolution? Hehe...you might see more of that here soon...

it could be a good thing depending on who is using it and how its used. it could go the other way as well for the same reasons

Remember Darwinian Selection is part of evolutionary theory.

Evolution isn't going to happen in one generation either, V. You may wish to find out more about the person you think is deriding the "youth" before you belittle them yourself.

Besides which, don't you find it difficult to believe in both evolution and God?

In any case, that is not answering the OP's question, can science and magic co-exist and even work together? I think all things are possible, and that there is no telling what the two could do together. Your limitations are only inherant in yourself, and that goes for whether you are a scientist, a magician, or a combination of the two. Who knows where we would be right now if some bright scientist hadn't thought of harnessing microwaves for food heating purposes, or thought about what might happen when they collided a couple of atoms together.

Interesting..... this is a good thought but i am not sure that will ever happen. For one the science guys are all about proving that magic has an explaination that it is not real. If they cant accept it then how will they ever work with it

Vampirika, lol i have to laugh with that pole comment .. if a person wanted to see stars and then walked into a pole, would defently see stars alright, after the fact lol.. im not laughing at you just laughing at how it was put please dont take it personal ..

Alchemy is an early form of Science based in magic properties.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This

al·che·my /ˈælkəmi/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[al-kuh-mee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -mies for 2. 1. a form of chemistry and speculative philosophy practiced in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance and concerned principally with discovering methods for transmuting baser metals into gold and with finding a universal solvent and an elixir of life.
2. any magical power or process of transmuting a common substance, usually of little value, into a substance of great value.




[Origin: 1325–1375; earlier alchimie < OF alquemie < ML alchymia < Ar al the + kīmiyā' < Gk kémeía transmutation; r. ME alconomye, equiv. to alk(imie) + (astr)onomye

My response may not be pleasant to some, however please bear in mind it is not my intention to insult. This is simply my opinion and we all have one.
I would hope that the two roads of science and magic never meet, and in no way should they ever. There are all forms of science so lets start with an example: Pharmacology, do you really think that any form of magic (spells) can produce life saving medications, give me an example, you simply can't. I feel very comfortable knowing that the medication I take (in most cases) was created by a team of educated scientists.

Very wise choice on forum posting Wolf. Just what I was thinking to bring to the table.

Alchemy is a very important part of magik, bringing this aspect of science together has been in use for thousands of years. There is no part of the alchemical properties that have not been used to conjure any form of magik.

I am quite surprised no one brought this to attention aside from Wolf.

Both science and magik need to coincide. We are not speaking of the movie magik of rays of light cascading from wands, or wizards summoning dragons that breath fire, or manifestation of zombie hordes to storm a castle or whathaveyou...This is the magik of the old, of the ancients, actual working magik.

The proof is in the eye of the beholder. Unless you cast for yourself, you may never see the proof of the result.

My apologies for this next rant...

As all magiks are based on universal energies, science would have to exist with it by nature. As magik is a science in its own rite. You have your hypothesis, experiments, and precipitations as with any other science.

Too have attitude towards others based upon qualities partaining to speculated learning, is to demean youself in the long run. This goes for young and old alike. To blemish a humble quality is to disregard the wise.

Live and let learn. If ignorance is bliss to some, then so be it. More for others to gather. As all energy is universal, and never waning, then to miss out is to lose out. Or so I hear.

Actually nightcraving, most medicine is made by businessmen. Pharmacological companies may have started with the best interests of people/ animals/ plants/ whatever at heart, but are now generally geared towards making money, not saving lives. Think of all the drugs that still get released without proper testing, and end up having massive side effects on people, or their children, or their grandchildren. Thalidomide springs to mind...

I think if you mixed pharmacology with magik, it would create a suiteable placibo, but nothing more.

As certain types of magik are by faith alone and work only for the individual, the placibo affect would work effectively if taken by someone who knew a spell had been cast on the medication.

I'm not an expert in makic by any stretch of the imagination, but are you implying that sheer will power alone could be an effective 'cure'?? Plus isn't the line between science/magic has been very blurred since around the 18th century when science really started to come into it's own, but it still seemed like 'magic' to the common folk due to a general lack of education in those times. As for horrors, some people could say that science has already created horrors in the guise of outbreaks of anthrax, TB which is more and more resistant to treatment etc.

all true magic

and i use the term loosely because many on here believe that they posess some arcane talents

is just undiscovered science
with a natural explanation.

i defy anyone on here to prove magic is real.

Is spirituality so lost in this world. Magick and Science are two and the same. To ways to obtain the same goals. Internal and external means. Energy is Energy whether to classifiy it as Magick or Science.

And as for the Comment that this day and age is more advanced and more enlightend then the ones before. Then why are we still committing the same acts of stupidity against our enviroment and eachother? Technology does not make a society more enlightend.

Very true Onokumo, Just gives us more means to destroy each other that much easier.

LOL If only that was the case. Yet most of the Human race seem to be more content to destroy the jewel which gives us life instead. And the essence of the Magick and Science from which it comes. >;]

They certainly do indeed.Sadly.

I have only read the initial post but have to say - finally!

Someone else who can understand that our world's biggest blunder in academia was the separation of church and science.

(Substitute 'church' for 'magic' and you see what I mean.)

When the church founded universities as centers for knowledge and enlightenment towards the goal of understanding God better and training young men to enter the priesthood, little did they know that from the intellectual debates that would spawn in their hallowed halls, the demystification of God would occur.

So the church bailed on the Universities and the rest is history...

Perhaps if the two had learned to somehow co-exist, we wouldn't have the fruit-loop religions that have spawned since, and might I go so further as to add that perhaps our world might be a better place?

Just a thought.

As a person who is training to become a type of hard scientist (aka "engineer"), it is almost laughable to me that anyone would think of magic and science as being on two sides of the same coin.

Science is science, and exists rationally as a base for human understanding of the natural world and universe.

While some forms of "magic" may be based in scientific methods, e. g. alchemy, the idea of magic as a form of invisible substance by which ridiculously spontaneous events occur and the laws of physics are made arbitrary (like what we see in Harry Potter), I would say more that magic and science are polar opposites and thereby not two sides of the same coin.

I am totally with becomethesea on this. That's what I have always said. Magic is fairy tales..Science is nothing but fact.

Becomethesea puts things in a rather stark and hard to argue with perspective. Since magic involves methods that don't follow scientific principles, they can't easily be combined. In order to allow magic in the lab, it has to be measurable & repeatable. Until such a time as acts of magic can be repeated in a way that can be observed, it can never be called a science or a part of science.

Now keeping that in mind...IF someone were to have the ability or skill to fulfill those requirements in the arcane arts, then perhaps one could begin to more readily accept magic as a new science (one that had previously been uknown like electricity or radiation)...but it's currently a bit of a stretch to foresee that anytime soon.

Ok change the word from Magic to Alchemy...or back to it...because the word magic has been associated with Magicians..or Illusiontists for the last 100 years or so.They do not perform actual "Magic",unlike Alchemists.

becomethesea and FelixFelix, both of you have enhanced upon what I stated earlier:

The separation of magic/church and science earlier in our history has led to this divide.

Padwan - but that separation stems from the inability to prove the existence of either god or magic...at least currently.

I really can't see true magic being repeated or measured. Trickery magic of course, but that's not the magic we're talking about, I assume.


There is a thick line between magic and science. If you could measure or repeat magic, then it's no longer magic at all...more correctly..never even was magic. Magic...to me at least...is one's strong belief in something. So strong that they actually see it happening and effecting them or other people.


If you mix a red chemical with a blue chemical and it explodes, that's science. If you look at a red chemical and a blue chemical and see them exploding while the other perfectly sane person watching the same two chemicals from the other side of the table just sees them standing there, it's magic...to that certain person who sees a reaction from something that's not moving an inch.


I see no logic in the claim that magic has anything to do with science, or that they can ever be combined. That's like saying the matrix and real life is the same..and we could someday combine them. Ridiculous, right?

True that dear Felix; I am merely suggesting that if the church hadn't bailed on the universities when their conception of 'God' was challenged by rational, scientific thinking perhaps we would have some of these answers now.

possibly Padawan but it could also have hampered the evolution of science. Remember that long ago, science was only what you could see and since everyone has a difference perspective and since observation itself is open to interpretation, science had some pretty wacky ideas at the time it was a relative of the church or mythology. Faith was 'supported' by experiments in psuedo-science. There was a desired outcome and 'scientists' used their 'observations' to prop up those beliefs. It wasn't until science distanced itself from belief and even divorced itself from faith, that the true scientific method came into play and real results were the end product of unbiased experiments and not a goal to be achieved through any means or route.

Vampirika - We agree in principle though I think any magic currently practiced (not illusion but actual metaphysics) could someday be a new science and still be a magic. It's a semantic issue in the long run because we have the same general opinion of mixing unproven magic and science - ie you can't mix it.

Thanks for clarifying your thoughts on this, Felix.

In history though, the church left science before science left the church. My only supposition in this realm is to wonder what would have occurred if the church had not taken such a dislike to its tenets being disrupted by the scientific method which was developing and had embraced it.

But given that we can only suppose - I really do think that everything happens for a reason and agree that the divide between the two does exist and for that reason alone, the two can not be co-mingled.

Well, looks like we have a little arguing going on here. Anyways, let me say this, "What you don't know CAN kill you."

Science is the study of the natural world to better understand it so we can better manilupate it.(cell phones, computers, landscaping, construction, ect...)

Magick is the subtle manilupation of the natural world with the use of the powers that we posses inside each of us.

Whether you believe it or not Magick and Science are one in the same. Science is just hands on as Magick is all in the mind. One is of the physical world and the other of the spiritual world. This is why is it very hard for Science to relate to Magick.

The adsence of evidence is not the evidence of absense.

Science has a hard time even relating to the structures of the universe, and magick is something that flows through each and every part of the universe. It's in the trees, cars, birds, bees, and every living creature on earth. It's a part of the Earth and the very solar system.

Magick is a part of gravity and of fire. It exists within everything we can and cannot touch even if we don't realize it. It's an energy that is beyond the ability of science to define.

Einstein himself said that you cannot take science seriously without the belief of some greater power. Thats not a dirrect quote but it's very close to what he said.

He understood that there is something behind the scenes of everything we know making subtle changes to the world around us, both helping and hindering us.

Only with an open eyes and an open mind will we ever see the truths of this world. People will always believe different things, and thats completely ok. The trick is to believe what you say, and trust in yourself and in what you know. Just be prepared to be wrong. Nobody's perfect and especially not me.

So in summary, Science is the understanding of Magick that surrounds us in the physical form.

I believe that once magic is proven and turned into an equation/formula, it is no longer magic. It's really that simple. Magic is something you can't explain and not every sane person with a fully functional brain will believe and (or) see. Science is something that can be taught...placed into action at any given time and place, and that every single person that can see, hear, feel, smell..ect..will be able to use those things to experience the science without even being told what it is and what it should..as one would do with magic.

(Whoa @ long run-on sentence)

The mixture of magic and science is a hard thing . science goes by adsolutes and therory . There is no faith in science only fact . With magic you have to have a lot of faith and belife in what you are doing . science is just the proof

WiccanPothead - You views are those of belief though. While you can say that you believe magic to simply be the unproven science of the mind, until there is proof, it will be a belief not a fact (at least to the world outside your own experience).

It's actually not an argument with you per say. I acknowledge that science 'could' accept the arcane arts into it's fold but only after the proof of existence. True that lack of proof doesn't completely disprove, but it does prohibit complete acceptence without faith. You can decide you don't believe in gravity but it can kill you, you can decide you don't believe in curses, but if you die after being cursed, it's not proven that the curse killed you and it's a only a belief or opinion that the curse killed you...a faith. That's a sharp contrast to gravity.

Actually the The secret had some material on this, Quantum physics, energy healing etc.

Sigh...

True true. That can't be denied.

I have my beliefs, you have yours, others have theirs, but it's refreshing to be able to argue with civility.

Thats the sign of the truely civilized in my opinion, the sharing of ideas without violence.

Correct. I don't deny belief but I separate it from science. Someday the two could meet but not without the things science requires. Science without proof isn't science.

When science is not fully understood, it is considered magic. When magic is fully understood, it then becomes science.

The real question is, what parts of the spectrum are you willing to understand?

Personally i think that all the posts here have merit and i don't think there is ever going to be a conclusion to this discussion.....in our lifetime at least.

by history whiches use chemicals to do magick right ?

I think in order for people to accept magic, god, and anything else paranormal people should not put it out in the open like that. Just keep it for yourself. It'll be a lot more respected and accepted that way. That's what I think...

I think they are complettely different, they try to dispell each other. I do agree that it takes a long time to master both.

It seems that there has been a great laps in wisdom with the gaining of knowladge. Science has been the rational world racing to explain what magick already knew. Does it matter that faith tought the old sage what did what. No. But science takes the skill and Wisdom away from the Magick that is the True Magick. Being a Machinist. I too know some Modern Science to explain with technical numbers the things I learned to do with out them repeatedly time and again. Yet I deal with engineers that believe wholy in nubers and not actual hands on knowladge. Which one is the more Wise? The one who designs the Machine or the One who Builds it and makes sure it works.

Oni - I think your right with some things. Certainly western medical science is even now just learning some of the practices that eastern medicine used and while one was based on a form of faith or at least a less physical science, it is being proven to have scientific basis. But that's what I mean when i say that there is a likelihood that magics or esoterics could become scientifically accepted. I don't think that anyone can fault another for not having blind faith for after all, we don't choose faith. It's either a feeling you have or you don't.

Why on earth should people keep their beliefs about magic or their dieties to themselves? We're no longer in the dark ages, we're not about to get hunted because we've proclaimed a belief in something other than the Christian god. Those of us who have taken part in this discussion are obviously mature enough to be able to discuss our views and opinions rationally without degenerating into infantile name calling and debasing. Personally I think this is a fabulous topic and I'm glad it got raised, however nothing will change my opinion that magic is real, alive, and practiced, and that it can be incorporated into science. Just because you can't feel the currents of magic doesn't mean it doesn't exist...

Vampirika, I had to make a little correction: Science is not pure fact, but pure observation. For hundreds of years, it was a fact that the sun revolved around the earth. Scientific facts are merely the results of observations. It doesn't mean they are concrete and wholly accurate.

Magick is the use of will to enact change in one's environment (basically, if your will is strong enough, anything can be accomplished, and you can mold your own reality). Mind you, this is only a viewpoint on the matter, and I've never met someone with a strong enough will to change reality at will, but the concept is what's important.

Science is the attempt to understand reality by observing it. Magick is the attempt to change reality via concentrated will. I see no reason why, in time, the two cannot come together.

Drakontion - I think what Vampirika was saying is about things like organized religion and the idea of trying to teach magic to the masses or convince them of your own reality. I don't think he's suggesting that we all keep our faiths as top secret.

When things become organized or public domain, then the majority tends to influence the minority. So your own faith could become influenced or even tainted by the thoughts and beliefs of those around you.

If observation is anything, then it would be magic. I think Science is taking that observation and putting it into effect with your own hands and at your own will. After which recording it, putting it into a formula or words to be able to teach a people, and finally after some time it becomes a fact. Something -everyone- knows is there.


The Sun revolving around the Earth or visa versa isn't Science in my opinion. It is still a big debate, leaving it still in a Hypothesis state. It will also stay there until someone or thing is able to go to all of the planets in the Universe and being able to see every inch of what they do, are, and how they were formed.

-------------------------

Going back to what Drakontion said, I will gladly respond to that. Let me bring up a little example for you all...


Thousands of years ago the entity known as "God" was formed in the minds of the masses. It was also at that time said, most likely originally by the Churches who created God for means to silence those masses, that if you were to lie you will get really sick, have terrible injury, or even die. Along with endless other horrors that you can think of..


Hundreds of years have passed and nobody lied. Then one day someone finally told a lie. Everyone froze in disbelief after which took cover under the chairs, tables, and beds in fear that God will now come down from the heavens and put wrath upon everyone in that room, especially the person who lied. One hour passed..another hour..another and another. Nothing happened and people started peeking out their heads and crawling out of their hiding spots. A loud wave of debates and chatters on what just happened erupted across the room. Another 5 hours pass and the people in that room finally came to the conclusion that when you lie, nothing really happens to anyone. A week passes..month..year...years. People start spreading rumors across town that the whole "tell a lie and die" ordeal is a big fluke. So everyone is happy and relieved and everyone starts to lie left and right with no worry that God will smite them or their families.


Another Hundred or so years pass and someone comes up with "if you swear and tell a lie after the swear, you will be very sick, have a bad injury, or even die". So for another few hundred years everyone never swore and lied. Then one lucky day someone swears and tells a lie...and that whole ordeal stated above re-lives itself again. Nothing happens..people start spreading rumors..sooner or later everyone's swearing and lying and it's all a big joke.


Another few Centuries pass and someone comes up with "Swear on your life and you will die. Swear on someone's life and THEY will die". Same thing happens..blah blah blah..you know the drill.


Today everyone lies like it's nothing. Hundreds of years ago people never lied in fear that they will die.


..So what the hell is the point of all of this you ask me? I'll tell you. It's my response to Drakontion. It's my response to her question of why should you keep your beliefs and dieties to yourself. You keep them to yourself because once they slip your mouth and hit the air...just like people breathing the air, those beliefs and Gods will all slowly die out and become nothing. All of your so called "magic" will become nothing but a filthy over-used cloth.


Same thin with Vampires, Ghosts..and anything else paranormal. STOP over-using them so much. STOP telling people about them. STOP killing those things! A mystery that's said is a mystery that's now dead.


People live for mystery..for the unkown. People live for death. That's something I can say for everyone. People will ALWAYS find something else to stare over and go "Whoa..that's a insertsomenameherepire." Always..people will never run out of bullshit to make up.


So if you want your Gods, religions, Dieties, magics and so forth to live on in history...then keep them to yourself. Don't tell people about them. Nobody will believe them but you anyway. Don't put them out there and leave them to be over-used and die out.


That's what I meant...

Oh, and for all those sharp shooter and smartasses, yes that little story I just told was obviously a completely inaccurate dramatization. It was written to give everyone an idea of what I was trying to say. So don't pull the "NO DATS NOT WUT HAPPEN!!" trick here please.

I would have to say "With great power comes great responsibility"

cliche maybe, but very true

Rev. Ravyn

Nicely put V however I still have to disagree.

The fact that I make my chosen (or chosen by) diety known does not lessen her mystery. In fact I'd venture that it deepens it. No matter what you know, or what you think you know, there's always something you don't. There is always some other mystery to embrace. And I don't preach my diety to others, in fact, out side of this website, I've told no-one, simply because I'm surrounded by parochial christian traditions, and they would not understand nor accept.

My diety doesn't live on in history, she doesn't need to. She is as active now as she ever was, if not more so. The gods will survive, despite your belief or disbelief. IMHO, I'm sorry you can't experience them. I'd venture to say it's your lack of belief that takes the magic away from you. It is sad, that it is that way. However you to have devotion to your chosen god, in your own way, and you're not reticent about declaring it. It's not my choice, but I'd never seek to ask you to stop talking about it. But then again, I've never been a devotee of the Christian god, and he's never liked me =P

The Gods will not survive if I don't believe in them. If nobody ever even said there was a God many many years ago, you wouldn't know what a Diety is today. Same thing with magic..and anything else honestly.


The bottom line is people have evolved and learned the way they did. You can't change that. The only thing you can do is accept it, deny it, or go your own way on various things that have been practically set in stone already.


You can only believe in what you believe in, and you can't force it upon anyone or even tell anyone about it, as that will most likely be a waste of time, or worse, a big fat bullseye on your head for criticism.


We are living in a world that we are living in. A world of realism as we know it. Magic and God, for the most part, isn't part of it. I will even be so bold as to say we bring up magic and God only when we need them, and not when they need us or as an everyday thing.


If there was no heaven or hell, or anything else...but just the saying "believe in God to be good people", little to no people would believe in God. People are selfish like that..including me.


So being proud of your religion/magic/gods and advertising it all over the place is not only foolish, and demeaning to the belief, but like I said, it will over time rot the roots of it and destroy it level by level.


That's only my opinion though, and I know that. You have your own opinion and I respect that. What I'm saying now though is what I believe most or many "normal" or "sane" people think. Because that's what we've been dipped into from birth...

Set in stone. LOL I have seen too many things claim to be "Set in Stone" only to be erased later at some new and "revolutionary discovery". Realism is just as flawed as everything else. Reality is just as fluid. So are words like "Normal" and "Sane". Both are statements of opinion just as corruptable as anything preached by any religion.

LMHAO I think I am going to go before I have a heartattack from all the silliness. LMHAO

Until the new "revolutionary discovery" is made, we must believe and go by what we have now. Otherwise the world will fall into complete chaos. People need to be able to lay back on something. You can't just say everything we know now and live by is complete bullshit...


LUL! but maybe you could because you're probably another "wise" one LUL!

LMHAO I actually I consider myself a humble creature of Nature. Wisdom is often claimed by those who seek only to rise above thier natural forms. Because of a belief they are better than it. LMHAO.

Humble ones wouldn't come out with such a bold statement as saying that all of what everyone believes in and lives by..the whole world is a joke. You've put yourself in the middle of a dart board my friend. I just don't know where to throw first...


Post some more and give me some hints to where I can degrade you first.

Generally people of science want an explaination of why something happens. something logical or a reason. With magic you don't have that, it has to be just accepted. So when you have someone like 'platinumwitch' which is a man of science that practices magic he can view beyond the ordinary spectrum of plain logic. This can be a double edge sword because in science you don't want to just accept what is and than move on like in magic. You need to have a driven force to find the answers as with magic you might or might not.

i think there both go hand in hand

If you really believe that deities will be forgotten over time, then you are in fact saying that these deities are all in your head.

Deities are their own energies, manifested from and for the universe. They are their own entities which no matter if you believe in them or forget about them, will be out there no matter what. Endlessly...Which is why some in the world wish to become as avatars amongst these deities, if not a god themselves.

Dart boards are fun, but I would toss the dart at the critics of others rather than the opinionated.

i do see science as a short-cut but more as a way to reach the same gaol a magic but for those without the gift or ability to learn it

Vampirika

i respect your views on what you have to say, but you also seem so insucure in your belifes, a person who is secure in what they belive can accept others views and opions ,, with out finding reasons to disprove it,, and why if a person who belives what they do why hide it,, sounds like they should be ashamed ,, then proud

Throw them where ever you wish. >;] Darts don't phase me. LOL And as for the "Jokes of the World". That is for other discussions.

Vampirika


my other question is why if you belive so strongly in science why are you on the rave?

magic and science are not the same from my point of view the two do go hand and hand with out one you would not have the other but science involves modern technology where as magic relies on the older things in this world

ok so magic is ? from what,from where..it just,appears?? Just will it and it happens huh?
Get real.The energies of magic have always been in place.And science and math of today are simply means of prooving what can be prooven and communicating it to others.
It you describe it as sacred geometry it is divine or magic.Do it with math and calculations,its called science.
Its the same thing .Both science and magic refer to the same energies.Both attempt to manipulate those energies.Both attempt to proove their exsistance.

Finally. Very well put. I agree. Thank You. >;]

*applauds Cryingmoon*

Going off of what Drakon said, as well as Soulshroude.

If we were to deduce with the "light of reason" (light being the operative term as it requires fuel of some source to be, as only the darkness was first and will exist beyond the light) That some form of existence was limited only by this reason. Then why do you have such strong views about something so limited?

Why do you yourself, ignore the obvious, and blindly follow a dogmatic structure that allows no room for personal advancement? or evolution of your own thoughts? You said it yourself, attempting to refute my original statement at you. That you are the product of evolution. A tadpole does not evolve into a frog, it grows into one. And worm, is simply a worm by its nature, no matter how big or small, or the form it takes, or the host it lives in.

If you claim that you are the evolution of the is, and you represent the is to be. Then what inspires you, about the path you walk? What reason does it give you to be better then the day before.

Science provides us with understandable systems of control where we can subject ideas to different environments and observe the outcomes to see their effects before applying them in the world at large. Ceremony and ritual do the same thing.

There is science in knowing the timing, the aligning of the mind and body to become one with the currents one is working with. There is no faith that is needed. There is no reason to have belief in a deity or some higher force when you can feel them flowing through you, around you, and through everything else to which you interact with.

The godforce I serve, I do not wish it on anything, at the same time, I am happy to have purpose beyond eating, drinking, paying taxes and dying. It is in service to it, that I have purpose to strive to be better. I have a reason to be better then the day before, better then the moment which proceeds this one. In that, I am in control of how much I do, or do not achieve in this life. If anything exists beyond death for me, at least I know I have done all I can in this one. Even if my death comes today. Can you say the same about your dry, cold, dead, stagnet science of denial of the spirit to grow? If not, who is more evolved?

Someone who actively seeks evolution out on natures terms? Or someone who hides behind the theory and hypothetical could nots, produced because you have not yet sought to be your own individual?

Seeing as some people go so far as to say that I don't belong on this site because I am reasonable and realistic, and most people on here aren't...making any argument of mine as useful as throwing peas on the wall, I will say one last thing on this topic.


Each person has their own definition of happiness, fullness, and comfort. The real question at hand is -- Are you comfortable with who you are and what you believe in? Does it feel good to be an outcast and be forced to hide your freaky minds and beliefs on a daily bases? I know I wouldn't be, because what I believe in is reasonable and "right". Might not be right to you, but it is right by the majority..and last I checked, the world is run by majority.


Just because I'm on the Rave, doesn't mean I must be an unreasonable freak of nature...or a vampire or werewolf of some sort. If I'm here for anything, I'm here to find out why some people (the minority) such as the people on this site think the way they do. What is it that makes you guys think of such fairy tales and love them so much.


Maybe I could learn a thing or two about myself by doing this. Then again, I may not...as the fairy tale world has little to no back-bone or logic to it. It has nothing but rumors upon rumors and topped with "dark" icing. You can't live with this stuff in the real world. You can accept that fact or continue to live in your "dark" corners.

and my point has been made lol ,

Ummm, hasn't anyone considered that there is no science without a hint of magic or vise versa, after all evolution is defintley a scientific fact but what about the soul, spirt etc There has got to be something more for those factors to be in extintience, which they most certainly are. (sorry about the typo's, just wanted to get this in before i was logged out!!)

now my opion,, i try to use sciene and magic 50 / 5o,, i think i lean towards science more because i like to know fact more then faith,,, but i also like to keep my mind open , to other possibiltys,, since science can not explain everything

plus about Deities, one could argue that they are not dying, merely being reininvented and people are now worshipping new gods or old one's depending on your point of view such as more and more people are going back to the old pagan traditions.

LOL Who says we hide our Nature from anyone. Or my Beliefs. LOL I haven't Hidden in the Shadows since I was a small school boy. LOL

lulz. 'dunno 'bout any of you, but if I told someone I go to "Vampire Rave" here in my neighborhood..they'd smile and nod.

Foolish is he who dismisses either of these...

This thread has been automatically closed for length.