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After getting introduced to fractal art I started to do more research on the Chaos Theory. I have found that it is part of the cause of most things in life. Further research brought me to an article on chaos magic.

Many others feel that magic and other supernatural aspects are the driving force in life.

My question is this: Do you feel that the Chaos Theory is directly related to magic or do you feel that the chaos magic is something completely different?

Why do you feel this way? And please provide supporting evidence. :)

Personally chaos theory make me want to vomit :)

Actually I don't subscribe to it at all. Chaos is the lack of order and prediction. According to quantum theory all things can be predicted to some probability.

At the moment of the big bang there may have been chaos but since then you can predict the actions of the universe, down to single particles.

Chaos is simply our way of coping with the understanding that, presently, we don't know everything. If we had the knowledge we could predict everything that would happen, even human actions.

It's all a matter of quantum :)

As for magic (if it's real), it can be described scientifically, all of it.

Chaos magick is something totally different.. Theres many forms of magick.. Thats just one of thm..

I'm going to have to agree with Xzavier on this, partially because I'm a fatalist and subscribe to the concept of entropy.

The Chaos Theory seems like a scape goat to me. Rather than trying to discern the actual pattern or order of the thing, it's easier to say that it is random.

As for Chaos Magic, I'm not a practitioner so I'm reluctant to comment on it. Instead I'll ask a question: Is it referred to as Chaos magic because of the mix of random ceremonies used in it?

I would imagine it derived its name for a reason and is very much differant than other types of magic. I think majic has the same sides as all things, some of it being good and balanced and soem of it being dark and chaotic.

in essence, Chaos Theory is agreeing with the principles of Wicca. It also agrees with the basic principle behind the statement "the lord moves in mysterious ways". it is not saying that everything is just random, and in fact fractal geometry has a definite pattern. what Chaos Theory does claim (which i only partly agree with) is that it is not possible to predict outcomes because everything is affected by everything else. that much is pretty obvious - but in my opinion just because i cannot do something does not mean it cannot be done. in theory, it is possible to predict any outcome - just very dificult in practice.

Chaos Theory mocks the very foundation of "science" and rightly so. the first principle of science is that if you reproduce the conditions of an experiment, you will always get the same results. Chaos Theory knocks this down by saying you can never reproduce the conditions of an experiment, because that moment has passed, and the conditions will never be exactly the same. in actual fact, Chaos Theory is correct here, and "science" is flawed.

if cornered and speaking "off the record" most scientists will agree that their experiments never produce exactly the same results. science and logic are perfect in theory, but tend to fall over a lot in reality.

example:
i have two pounds fifty in my left pocket, and one pound eighty in my right pocket. so how much money do i have? logic says four pound thirty, but because it fails to take into account the five pound note in my shoe, or the fifty pence in my hand.

logic can only be based on what we already know - or think we know. if there is missing information, or incorrect information, logic fails us. likewise, science is based on observation, which means that which is completely beyond our observation is not going to be in the equation. everyday scientists make new discoveries, but everyday an old scientific "fact" is disproven or discredited.

First of all thanks to those who explained what the Coas theory was. I thought it was something Control made up. And I always thought you made your own bad luck

chaos theory, is yes everything is affected by everything else, like i dont know walking down the street is affecting something somewhere else,

A butterfly flaps it wings, and on the other side of the world is a hurricane.

we've all heard of this yes, well in some ways it goes back to whats been covered.

chaos does have something to do with magik, that its something that affects everything else.

the difference between Chaos Theory and magic is that Chaos Theory states that you cannot predict anything because everything is affected by everything else, whereas magic beliefs are that you can predict anything for the very same reason. the Wiccan belief is that because everything is interconnected, then everything is reflected - so it is possible to predict what is happeneing, or will happen to someone by interpreting a seemingly random event - such as a flight of swallows, ripples in a pond, or movement of the stars. one thing they both agree on is that nothing is truly random - but Chaos Theorists believe that the complexity of influences are so great that they may just as well be random.

Chaos Theory, or more accurately, Turbulence Theory, is indeed a legitimate science, revolving around the fact that we can't know and predict absolutely everything. It's basically the idea that underneath all the formulae, there is still the element of chaos that we can't fully predict. It's very interesting shit, if you're into it.

Chaos magick, on the other hand, has little or nothing to do with Turbulence Theory. The term Chaos Magick merely indicates that it doesn't follow any specific school of magick. One could be a Wiccan, for example, and still practice Chaos Magick merely because they use Hermetic priciples as well. They're not interrelated.

Chaos magic from what I have read,
is used by the practitioner to send
chaos to a unfortunate victim
who has his/her life turned upside down by
trickster spirits causing mischief in their every day lives.

I'm not sure if this is what you mean, but it's all I really have to offer.

I think most folks try to make this subject too difficult or find a label for this. When it is not just a single label or thing..it is a combination of what we know and practice, what we have picked up and learned along the way.

It is like so many things in life,one simply believes or one does not. I myself practice this type of energy manipulation, it exists for me. For some it does not, truly, life is all about choices.
When I want results, I simply focus on what I know is true: that I have a modicum of power within my Self, and that I can use it externally. It is my chi, my Soul, my life force, and my aura.

Chaos magic? This is chaos magic. Chaos magic is doing what works, for you.What you learned and gathered in your lifetime.What I practice and believe may be totally different than someone else.

If the chaos theory is about the cause and effect of all things then that would include magic also, no matter what the name. I don't have supporting evidence, just my own opinion here. Chaos magic is when you follow different types of magic in to one I believe. So to answer your question, yes, I believe its different but can be included since when you pratice magic it does have a cause and an effect.

Chaos Theory is just that...a theory.

The world is chaotic as well as everyones lives...but in some aspects of it...it is controled.Magic is not real...illusionists use slight of hand and distraction to make it seem real...but the magic you describe is not real.In art...it can be chaotic...in the artists mind...Pollack...Van Gogh...had chaos running through their minds and in their art.

Chaos Theory

in mathematics, physics, and other fields, a set of ideas that attempts to reveal structure in aperiodic, unpredictable dynamic systems such as cloud formation or the fluctuation of biological populations. Although chaotic systems obey certain rules that can be described by mathematical equations, chaos theory shows the difficulty of predicting their long-range behavior.

I see I didn't really answer your question directly..oops lol.

Personally I don't think Chaos Theory would be connected to magic at all. Magic is the manipulation of the natural world by using thought (in essence). I would think that the well founded principles of Quantum Entanglement and even Torsion Fields and Dot Theory would serve to prove magic is possible. Of course if I'm right magic would also go to prove the listed theories.

The chaos theory has been around for some time. Way before what is being talked about or applied to magic. Quantum or chaotic Universe? For awhile now we were told, and raised, that G_d brought order to this Universe. It now has purpose. But this was not always the case for many non-believers of the new faith. Chaos seemed to be still in full affect. So, what these Pagans did was to create a god called Abba. To make him superior to this new orderly and fatherly G_d, they made him his Father! Pagans raised the stakes a notch. An Omni G_d with a father. Funny. But who is to say. Chaos does seem to rein supreme many times. The basic nature of all creation may indeed be chaotic and by chance. Order may be only an illusion that may not last.

I would not say the theory were related to magik, but that magik does cause or wreak havok upon the universe. Since the individual of whom uses said magik, ritual, spells or otherwise...Disrupts the universal calculations just enough not to cause spacial distortions, or disruptions in the continium, but can cause certain events that should have occured, not to occur.

Then again, who is to say the quantum theory takes liberty over all chaos theory...Speculation of course but bare with me here...In turn liberates all chaos in said universe since it was on probability, supposed to happen in the first place for said spell, ritual etc. to be cast. Thus the quantum theory takes charge and in turn causes said chaos to take its course in due turn about. As the case may seem, turn about is after all fair play.

I am not really sure about chaos magic but with chaos theory it is a new way of thinking that most scientist are not wanting to look at because it does shoot down a lot of the old theories on how things happen. most science will say roll a ball down a hill from point A and it is going to land at point B but because they didn't see the rock halfway down the hill the ball ends up going to point C instead. There is no way to accurately predict the outcome of everything without knowing all of the variables involved and then you never know when a small wind that is going to change all of that.

I believe that there is no such thing is chaos. There are only patterns too large for our comprehension.

That really is the point of chaos theory that there is way to many variables for us to really be able to predict the outcome of anything with complete accuracy. There is always skeptics of new science just like people being condemned as heritics when they found science to explain things rather then just believing that god controls everything.

Jarak, I totally agree.

As I stated earlier all things can be predicted, if all things are known. We're just to small to comprehend the complexity of all the variables. But, in the end, there is no chaos, even before there was a universe it can all be predicted.

No one can predict the unpredictable.

Chaos Theory is still a theory...as I said before...but it is also something to make you think about.

A man spills a bunch of beans.. he predicts one will land in a small ring on the floor.. another man says he can write the probability of that happening.. as long as he can count the beans..

I think the point you are trying to make ~Dabbler~ is that the law of probability contradicts the ways of chaose, and therefore chaose has no place when it comes to the law of physics.

Chaose means to have no control over what happens, short and sweet definition. Therefore, prediction and probability cannot factor in.

A catching summery. because as the beans spill not all are likely to land on the floor.. even if one bean land on a piece of paper.. it is removed from the equation. How much are you placing on the bean hitting the circle? Now notice that they failed to mention the size of the circle..
when someone wants to know if the bean has to come to a rested stop in the circle..

Blah! You can predict the location of the beans by factoring in, starting position, force, distance, environment etc.

Thats the beauty of quantum theory, it can give plausible predictions to everything.

Right but the guy dropping them would want you to believe there is no chance of factoring the likelihood of the bean landing in the circle.. so that when it does.. he gets bigger bragging rights.

Even the likelihood of cheating can be figured into the equation. Like if their was a bean on the floor that we have not spotted..

When a person looks at chaos, it could well be likely.. in a metaphysic sense.. past entropy. Connecting metaphysic things to this physical world is a tendency of occult based practices. What gets me is that once they imagine a scenario that "supports" their concept they then go to the next level and claim to "harness the forces of.. chaos.. like it is bending putty.. no different to me then people that manipulate the text of gods. Agnostic atheist, are always the ones that press the "beyond metaphysic concept of objective chaos to counter god origin..

Back to the beans.. the guy drops them.. not one even bounces in the
2 centimeter circle.. so know the guy says .. this time I will do it and use "magik" to affect the temporal fields around the floor.. given the rate of probability and depending on the excuse he has for not making it.. move it now into a imagined agenda..

Dabbler, I think thats what were both getting at:
Short answer, chaos can not be connected (logically) to magic.

A lot of people think its connected to it because it may, at first, seem to fit their ideals/provide an explination or because the vast majority of folks have little idea as to the true nature of Chaos Theory.

On one hand it makes sense but then again isn't magic an intentional force? Knowing a predicted/attempted outcome can change the end result to match.

its fascinating the very idea of its profoundly magestic. that chaos theory is one hell of a rabbithole full of wonderful hypotheses (plural of hypothesis is...? *shrug* i tried at least) and theories that are nearly impossible to prove but so fun to think about it. and difficult. the challenge is half the fun, of course.

Makes one think about the lines drawn when partial to the "Discordian" laws. As they pertain to the chaos "magiks" whether chaos theory inclined or just fantastical to the mind to satisfy its cravings for an answer to an unexplained or non-understandable outcome, to a question that has no answer.

i think that world does run on the chaos theory....
everything in this world is abstract, and unplanned
trying to make something planned is like trying to stop the world.
for the most part...
i think that chaos magic is totally different from the chaos theory...
there are many different kinds of magic and chaos magic is only only form of it....

chaos theory can be used for many things in life such a life itself in how ones outlook it on the world and the things around them this concept has a vastness that can be easily adapted to many things.

chaos magick is more of a way of how you practice magick rather than say a art such as wicca,and any other form of spell casting,chaos uses more of a technique of how one should pratice rather than boundaries as most forms have,the only limitations is your mind is how i feel.

I think chaos magick and well .. different types of magick are considered the same thing. I do think however, chaos magic was discovered from original magick,.

I would recommend the book, "The Dancing Wu Li Masters" if you are interested in mystical interpretations of quatum mechanics.

Chaos Magic is not something that toy with if you will. But one I did read a really good article on it. and it can be found here.
http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usil&c=trads&id=11184

I think that it is only related to magick if it is used by someone for such reasons, otherwise no....

i think that the chaos theory is that of a natural oder in nature.everything has a choatic truth to it.everything in nature has the compacity for good as well as chaos.

In mathematics, chaos theory describes the behavior of certain dynamical systems – that is, systems whose state evolves with time

When you die, and come to stand before your Book of Life, what do you think you will find? For each new experience that you have, a page is added to this book, making it fuller and longer. If you lead an adventurous life, your book will be an enormous tome, full of wondrous experiences, accomplishments, and yes, even failures. Unfortunately, many people are stuck on the same page because they are caught up in a routine, such as going to work, coming home, watching TV, and going to sleep, with little deviation from the norm. They are mired on that same page, so no new pages are written in their Book of Life, and when they die it will be very thin. They know what tomorrow will bring, because they lived it the day before. When they think back on their life, it will appear that time has flown by, because they have no strong memories to grasp on to. That same day they kept living over and over will be remembered as just one long day.

Live your days with this knowledge, because with new experiences also comes wisdom, and a deeper understanding of life and what comes after. Never pass by any good opportunity, for it may never come again. Don't be controlled by your fears, because this leads to regret, and regret is the heaviest weight one can carry. Chaos provides strength, because even though at times it may be dangerous, it can get you pointed in the right direction, even when all other factors hold you back. In other words, sometimes you have to say "Fuck it!," and just do something even if it doesn't make total sense or wasn't planned out. Chaos mixed with passion is like keys opening the doors to your desires. The more freely you behave, the more free you will become, and you shall break free of the prison that is all to likely to be your own mind. Besides, think of all the stories you'll be able to tell, whether good or bad.

So tell that girl how you feel, break up with that jobber you're too afraid to leave, ditch that wack city and move to wherever the hell you want to live, save your money and take that trip overseas, do things on the spur of the moment, start that business you were thinking about, take a stick and beat that motherfucker who hit your sister, visit your old friend that you haven't seen in years - - whatever it is you want to do. Now is the time. Live in the present. Don't talk about what you're going to do one day - - start making it happen today. This is the Chaos Theory: That chaos can bring strength, adventure, and make your dreams possible, where rational thought might fail. Living your life in this way, for better or worse, is sure to be more entertaining than not living your life at all.

For me this record is another page in my Book of Life -- one that was left blank for way too long.


That was written by Jumpsteady for his cd. I think it's actually a really good thought. Not that I agree with everything said but live your live to the fullest.

Dabbler, I think ,in a way, you could create chaos. Since chaos is nothing more than the lack of knowledge of a system and its functions if you were to create a scenario in which you didn't know the outcome you would, in effect, create perceived chaos.

Of course it's not real chaos but what the heck lol.

There's a great Vampire Rave Article subject on this by STABB666:

A History in Chaos

Darkened- Evolution isn't magic and genetics are extremely predictable, thus non-chaotic.

*Pulled from the deepest bowels of the General Discussion forum...*

"Thats the beauty of quantum theory, it can give plausible predictions to everything."

Technically not everything. We still don't have a value for the Higgs Boson, so the standard model equation is still incomplete. ;)

Magic is not related to the chaos theory. chaos thoery has many variables about outcomes that may happen or not and that is it.

if we percieve magic as working or not it may have the look of chaos theory is all, but not related to unknown therios of this.

Choas thoery have no use for this.

I believe that the universe is in its own way sentinent and therefore there would be a connnection, although i don't label magic as anything but magic, its all the same, just the castor that differs. All one has to do to be a spellcaster is be able to manipulate these universal energies using only your will. Most peole find that using some form of ritual helpls to focus, but it isn't necessary to those who are apt.

Also the chaos theory itself has many holes, there is an opposing theory called the SuperString theory, which also has many holes. but i once watched a documentary on a hybrid theory between the two that made perfect sense. unfortunately i can't remember the name of the doco.

String Theory/M-theory has little to do with Chaos Theory, and it has been discussed at length already. It's not really on-topic, so I'm leaving it alone for now.