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Could these following examples be an argument that consciousness kill.

Kenneth Lay, Slobodan Milosevic ( the dictator).

They both died of heart attacks after of during their trials Kenneth Lay, was on vacation.

I think it can kill, I mean if someone has committed a horendous crime and they keep thinking about it and what's going to happen to them, maybe just worrying about it so much can kill someone.

If someone does something really wrong and continously think of it. It very well could kill them.

if you let it get to you then yes... that is usually associated with guilt. I feel no guilt in anything i do so therefore i do have to have a conscious

i will not die from it so i am not worried

good topic dabbler

Surly the measures one takes to dull the nagging of reality, and the time without rest, (no rest for the wicked). Wears a person down. Kenny was on vacation, awaiting sentanceing, he was doing more then thinking of what he did.

every time i was locked up i thought about what crimes i was going to do when i got out just so i wouldn't be homeless

the system don't help with that

Yea one is more likely to rationalize crime used to preserve ones self, Kenny was in Luxurery he had excesses, the though of losing that is a hard fall for a repressed conscious..

i think it can kill

In what way, Ken died of haeart attact what other way is t poossible,

It sounds like you're talking about some form of psychokinesis.

However, I don't believe just by mind will alone can a deed be done. Also sounds like a form of manifestation.

_dabbler, you asked how the mind or consciousness can kill in other ways than a heart attack, since you listed that? Well, I think it can lead someone to suicide. But, there are also times, when people can get sick, physically, due to the stress their mind is putting on them. I know it's happened to me a few times. I've gotten sick because I was worried about something, or stressed about something, and even guilty about something. Good topic, and my answer is yes._

Certainly with some aspects of paranoia, just the thought of death as a guidance of the fear of death could ultimately lead to the concious act of self death. The paranoia could cause so much anxiety that the brain or heart would shut down from the fear the mind inflicts on the body...Self induced if you will.

i have to agree , the mind does seem to have a direct relationship with a persons health or lack there of...i wonder if this applies to sociopaths though?...*eats popcorn and watches*

OH yea think that it a great potentail to do lots harm being that thought of what u have done can always come to you

A heart attack most likely had nothing to do with the consciousness of what he did.

I agree if he took his own life, it would be much different.

I also agree the mind can play tricks on one, but sometimes it seems people do not have a conscious.

Look at Charlie manson for example, Scott Peterson. Both continue to live for the crimes they had acted out to achieve.

As a couple of individuals have already posted, the fact of the matter is...More often then not, mental disorders would occur and thus prevail against the untimely death.

Since the fear of death would be too harmful to the individuals psychie, they would more than likely be suffered for a mental disorder that counteracts the death scenerio thereby taking the balance into the mental phases before said death occured.

In my opinion, you cannot just die from concious thoughts, mental illness will in fact prevail before hand.

VampirA -


Care to explain why do you think so?

Would a case be made in these two cases for an position?

underlying repression, and the routine suppression associated with calculated denial, using all excesses at ones disposal to attempt to dull or out run consquence for ones action, the paranoia, the subtle or abrupt isolation from free interaction with "main stream" society.. that knowing that all you have gained through the scam, act, or deception and the grand idealism one thought would follow.. turn out to be for not,
when the act is over and the play is exposed all that was gained becomes "poison" tainted spoils, Ken was loosing that.. he was facing jail, worse for him, from flying down the road at 80 mph slammed into reverse.. all the while convincing himself, and trying to convince others as well, that (as the said all along) that he was not knowingly involved..
that surppression could have drivin him to reckless excesses, sort of I imagine, "I am now losing all of this luxery, I might as well cram it all in and hope I can take some of it with me, I would call that suicide by luxery.. A heart attack on vacation.. talk about not being able to relax!

Dabbler, are you saying that knew they were going to lose all that they have gained by committing the crimes/actions that brought them luxury in the first place, and they didn't want to let it all go so they subconsciously committed suicide? It's confusing, lol, but I guess it's possible.

well it's all about mind over matter and if you are not able to move on if something bad happened i think it would cause enough stress to harm yourself.

Reckless endangerment, a result of sociopathic people, when they have no acknowledged wrong (denial) and it is "slammed" down in detail (the evidence of their slight) then they either go.. "You got me, whooo good thing that is over, lets start with the penalty" I say a person likely to be a bit more healthy then the guy that "sticks to his guns, even sleeping with them, an assured accident waiting to happen"

Looking at another case to add to the mix.. Oscar Hartznall the Drakes Fortune Scam.. He went I strongly was suggested, crazy, and the thing was it is now wildly excepted that he was a actually a patsy of Sadie Whittiker, who was on the verge of getting her comeuppance. Such is the craft she weaved.. one that relieved the build-up of consquence with redirection.

Consinious the key to our soul, how foul the task can strain an individual untill death is the only means. yes I think consciosness can have an effoct on ones mind and soul.

taint and corruption, I see them as two separate things once one accepts taint corruption comes on the same invite.. Tint is removable it can wash off or wear of, corruption, it takes to the host, and not only leaves a taint but it bonds with and subtle changes the base make-up of the host. that change.. causes perhaps a numbness to risk. once the corruption is isolated and severed at the source that feeds it, the host is left to deal.

yes it can kill,usually in alot of forms of suicide,bodily illnesses

PyramidxHead -



What exactly do you mean?

If someone thinks about something they did and feels really guilty about it they will either make themselves ill or if it gets to them bad enough they might end their own lives . If they get ill enough it could kill them.

I have a question...by the time they reach this point in their lives (feeling bad enough about past crimes/actions committed that they get ill and or commit suicide) is their away to reverse this affect and save them, or would that be entirely up to them? Could they try and make amends for every thing they have done or in these cases are the crimes usually to bad to make up for?

since heart attacks are generally caused by stress, i could imagine that one could die from it if u let it

Probably is the stress that was weighing on them..if those type of people actually do have a conscious.

MAB It would all really depend on if that person did want help. You can't help someone who doesnt want to help themselves.

MAB a sharp point you raise, as for redemtion, I think the first step to that is to reconcile, reconcile as best possible in ones means, murdering a person is a process not of seeking forgiveness from the victim.. but from those effected by the death, so with scams, and dictatorships (corrupt by themselves, and reenforced by their co-scamers or co- officers ) the resulting displacement and whoa created, it is to acknowledge first that one has done something wrong, and to recognize the scope of ones actions, in the case of dictatorships, it is easy to pass the buck, or dole out the burden of responibility.. the attempted way to relieve the built up corruption, false application for redemtion.

is it the conscience that kills or the stress

Neglect as well, all the time spent scrambling to "save face" and clean-up the messes one made, take time away from routine life maintance, with no support network(they abandon you) it is suddenly up to the person to "bear his burden".

I think its just the stress of the situation that killed them

I would think that yes, consciousness can kill.
I guess yeah it really would depend on not only the situation, but the individual and how sensitive they were to their conscience.

If after they had commited the crime they had a sudden feeling of guilt, or if something had happened to change the way they thought about stuff like that in some way, then maybe they would be vulnerable to this kind of thing.

Lay was knocked off by the Bush Crime Family. Another convenient heart attack

i think something can stress you out so bad that you could have a heart attack.. so maybe it can..

I beleive so, It is said a person can die of a broken heart, the body just gives up after so much stress and shuts down. I would think depending on the person if they commited a serious crime and the guilt was heavy upon them the same may apply. slowly the stress would chop away at the body, combined with stress and the body may shut down.

There are those who commit crimes and feel little or no remorse on a concious level, but over time I think this would begin to affect them on a sub concious level and could affect the health negatively on a physical level or a psychological level or both, which could cause numerous disorders. I think it's possible someone could have a heart attack or even a stroke as a result. It's been said that some kill without a conscience, but I believe it still has some effect on them on a deeper level.

i must say

a lot of people came out of the woodwork to post to this, it is great, almost like we are all paying our respects at a funeral

i think so because they think it over and over and reliving it may in turn kill them

it could cause tremendous strain and for the, therefore wearing the body down, or it could cause you to kill yourself....so yes i believe it kills one way or the other

Utah Vamp, Great point, Lay Killed By Bush Cronies.. I would subscribe to a portion of that.. Milo.. well he could have been poisoned as well, A ringer of guilt, Lay was looking forward to return from vacation to sentencing, had he been taken into custidy would he have survived, his heart kicking? So this sure put it on the table, for an argument for Killer Conscious .. now who else needs a dose of reality for their denial? how does one go from, snow jobbing your loyal employees, and customers.. and sleep at night? What ever allows a person to appear unconcerned, seems to turn on them eventually, Like a serial killer (Son Of Sam) going ultra religious.. I think the exceptance of exposer, the Gavels Fall.. snaps them, if they have any shot at "release" that is it.

Hartzell, Oscar pulled a huge scam, he went mad, "

God Wants You To Roll", another scam, one of the two guys that started it in motion, his mind is so clouded by fantasy..(or is it real.. and he is no longer a credible person?)

What drives people to "Stick to their lies and denial ? Even to the point of physical collapses?

i think it can i mean if the person streeses about what they did then yeah it sure can.

What is the worst break down you have seen a guilty person have, mine would be Scott Peterson.. the way he grabbed that chair, I could tell he lost half his "indifference" to his act.

ive heard of people haven a heart attack cuz they were scared to death..

i could go with that yes... i mean what that person did wrong could have them and their mind in such an up whirl that it creats over welming stress ..... that could then kil them

Sure, I heard a story about a woman who died in the movie theater while viewing the movie The Passion of the Christ. Here are more precise details of the occurence I found online-

WICHITA, KS — A radio sales manager suffered an apparent heart attack during the final scene of The Passion of the Christ, during the first showing at the Wichita’s East Warren Theatre on Wednesday, February 25.

For all of us whom own theaters, I sincerely hope that this is just an isolated occurrence and not something that this film stirs “that” kind of emotion in. Reportedly the woman, 57, was described by co-workers as not suffering from any health-related problems prior to the incident.

from this source - http://cinematreasures.org/news/11419_0_1_0_C/

She could have just simply had a bad heart. I doubt her co-workers would know if she had a bad one or not.

None of these statements have really convince me that consciousness can kill.............. yes they may be thinking of there acts but still a phyiscal act that kills them ehg heart attack etc

Could this be an argument for such a thing? I am still exploring this, the break down of a persons "empire" and a stark awaking in face of unfolding exposer.. does just that exposes a person to their deeper repressed state, how they accept or continue to deny what they did could play a role in their recovery from despair, anxiety, and other stress related to their undoing. A frazzled person, is likely to be careless, in their focused intent to "cover their tracks, time that could be spent enjoying life.

I think the conscious mind is capable of many things.. It is possible to stress so bad to make you very ill, maybe even to death..

Dabbler, I honestly feel that the mind itself could play an important role in causing someone to die. The mind can affect the health of anyone, specially if they believe in it long enough. The stress of a situation can cause an impact like you mentioned in the original post. But then again its probably just stress that caused the death.

It can kill; but that depends from person to person... Someone who kills in self defense or by accident, can die of remorse... Someone who kills for pleasure cannot die from consciousness, because he has no conscience that obeys tha natural laws...

those that Thrill Kill, they feel something.. and to feel something(they are usually "numb" people. So it was a thrill to excel their dull senses, for a moment, Bundy said (paraphrase) " To feel close to a woman, wasn't anything to me as I cruised the scene, I started choking girls for fun, some where in to it, something I got out of that, that was the rush I expected every time." Yea he sleep with his victims body, he excepted and easily discarded his actions as necessary.

But acts like financial, corruption, and in Milos case.. A dictator .. all the crap he did, and I add defiantly countered as necessary, and "heroic" I think this a thin argument, becuse it is as likely that he was slow poisoned, still though the conciousness of others that are alert to the things that where not aired, they cannot let their concious rest until they know that such a person is dead, Detctives get I think it is called Case Bends when a notorious case gets them so bad that it crushes them consiously.

dabbler -

As always your question is extremely confusing and hard to understand, but yes, many people have killed themselves over their own thoughts.

I feel that if a person knows how to do it and sends bad energy like this to someone then Yes it can kill...

well if you feel really bad for something you might not be able to live with yourself & then kill yourself also it could cause lots of stress & cause heartaches like what a lot of people already said

darkxwhisper -



Why would whether a concious be guilty or not make any difference in whether it could kill?

Reminds me of the Urban Legend about the heart attack lottery ticket..

The sudden actualization that they were found guilty even when they thought themselves above the situation.. all that repressed stress the fractures in social associations nobody wants to be associated at the risk of their neck with such devious people. So that is why I ask, Is this a likely case for killer Consciousness, you look at it from a very interesting angle with that question. Please expand a bit.

I have seen people worry them selfs sick so I believe it could happen.

How exactly do 'worrying ones self sick' and getting killed by consciousness have in common?

if one person lets sumthing get them and not only they think but tell themselves 2 do sumthing tht would kill oneself there can b a way of consciousness killing a person

if you are in an altered state of consciousness you can pretty much do anything becuase you cant interpertate what you are actucally doing however if you were fully aware of what you are doing then you only kill if you want to it becimes a choice rather then an accident like an ASC would be

I believe that it can. it can work it's way to shutting down the body.

Yeah it can happen you kill someone and your guilt eats away at you unless your some sick twisted bastard then your more than likely to kill yourself or another.

To be fair I know when I get and guilty conscious about something I’ve done I feel so rotten in side that I have to go and make things right, so yeah I think if you’ve done something bad enough it’ll eat at you until you become ill or worse die.

I think if you and the other person believe in it strongly enough they yes it can kill. Negative thinking can cause illness and accidents so why not kill as well.

On the other hand, I think it goes hand in hand with curses. If you believe your cursed then you will be cursed. So if you believe someone wishes you dead then some how you will bring it about and fulfil that persons wish.

LadyxLorelei -

Will you agree with me that possitive thinking can cause illnesses or accidents?

Well, the conscience is a hypothesised ability or faculty that distinguishes whether our actions are right or wrong. If we're feeling strong remorse for our actions and yet trying to hide them, it leads to stress.

Stress can induce a heart attack and/or lead to other conditions.

So in that relation, yes, a conscience can kill.

i think it can kill... things like guilt and worry make people ill so i think it can definately kill x

Though the mind does have a lot of potential, I don't think it has the power to kill anyone. I do believe that if you dwell on certain things in your mind that you can make yourself sick, but killing anyone else including yourself just by using your mind seems a little far fetched.

Birra posted

"Well, the conscience is a hypothesised ability or faculty that distinguishes whether our actions are right or wrong. If we're feeling strong remorse for our actions and yet trying to hide them, it leads to stress.

Stress can induce a heart attack and/or lead to other conditions.

So in that relation, yes, a conscience can kill."

this really brings the case to light, stress related to consciousness.. the connection is rather strong for the case.. collective thought, or positive thinking.. Kaddaver .. there have been some who have brought that up with Milo (the dictator) perhaps he was poisoned by the mass thoughts of people, perhaps in a very subtle way, all those people thrashing him in front of others.. then the one person that had access to him is much less likely to hesitate to poison him, slow poisoning is found to be less detectable, even if the corner is determined to find it, which I doubt Milos corner was thorough.

thats right dabbler,stress can really hurt you if you have too much stress

I personally feel that even though the man was on vacation and living in the lap of luxury...the constant thought of what was going to occur in the near present probably had in a sense taken over his every thought..and in doing so it caused him a great deal of stress and stress can cause heart failure and so I guess it can lead to death.

One thing to consider as well was did the man have a history of heart problems or high blood pressure that could have been a contributing factor in his death?

I suppose I'll be labeled a conspiracy theorist for this but Ken Lay was about to be sentenced and would therefore been in a position to offer up others in order to reduce his punishment. I'm sure there were some in positions of power that weren't at all upset by his death.

Deborah Jean Palfrey, the D. C. Madam, was similarly dead before she had a chance to reveal the long list of politicians that frequented her services. Although found hung in her mothers storage shed, to paraphrase what she had said in an interview earlier: if she died, "they got me".

When i hear about suicides and heart attacks of people with possible damning info on the powerful, it's hard for me not to assume that they were killed.

i am going to say no.. if someone commits a horendous act upon another soul, they have no conscious. unless they have split personality.. then it would be possible...

Felix, I share that ante with you . Collectivly there was a few people with their necks on the block. Elimenating Kenny makes sense, people chip in on that pot, usually get what they want, and have access and resources to carry through. So all those years of Leverage and Corruption stretching ones self out on a lie, even if some one wasn't after him, one would think paranoia would kick in anyway. Who can you trust, when you are around people with greedy eyes?

The way this thread is constructed, you are asked to answer yes or no, and that's it. I don't know who, Kenneth Lay, Molchavich is, and the rest of this is confusing to me.


So, my answer is no.

Lay was whacked by operatives of the US government as he was going to tell everything he knew about the Bush- Cheney crime ring

The question is would these two cases make an arguement for killer consciousness? The underlying question (you are right i should have stated.. Why?) most seemed to have applied the why to their answers.

I do think that consciousness can kill, the psyche is a very powerful thing we still are doing studies on the human mind to figure out whether it does or does not have limitations. It is known that there are way to do yourself in just by a very intense shock, or literally being scared to death.

I say yes it can kill. It can cause you to pick at yourself until eventually you can't deal with being inside your own head and you commit suicide. It can be a constant nagging and criticizing of yourself until you die from being stressed out.

I d say yes it can

Well technically it's not the consciousness that makes someone sick. But the body.

The body makes you sick, not the consciousness, et cetera, blah blah blah, et cetera et cetera.

Tell that to the brain dead people =P

I would rather lose my mind like Oscar Hartzall. I would eventually owe up to my crimes and get on with the penalty, but once a person feels all the luxuries disappearing, and having a plush life, then .. "Your going to Jail!" WHEN YOU ARE STILL IN REPRESSION OF YOUR GUILT, like a spike to your well being.

It is not so much can Consciousness kill, its more anxiety kills.


Ok so im studying to be a doctor , but when someone is anxious or under a great abundance of stress, respiratory rate increases leading the heart rate to jump up, and other bodily changes to happen.As many know when we are pushed to hard we explode, just like our organs do.

However you can make your mind believe anything it wants so if you tell yourself ur gonna die or have a heart attack, you potentially can and will.

Consciousness killing? Well i think that the possinility of that alone killing no. But once you add in guilt and anxiety and even fear Yes i think that you could die from that.

I doubt that the feeling of guilt could cause death. Guilt could lead to depression which could lead to death. But not guilt alone.

guilt no, but the anxiety guilt prevails can yes

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