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Do you feel free where you live?

I know I don’t feel free even thought I live in the land of the free. We have all these rights about freedom but no way to use them, wheel that’s just my opinion what do you all have to say on this subject?

no we dont have freedom and rights cuz the ones that say were free...theres ones after those that say u cant do this which involves doing the first one.....

no your right the gove is very good about how they let us use our rights the only freedom we have is the freedom of thoght and we only have that rght if we use it

I agree...this so called 'land of the free' is anything but. Sure, we can walk down the streets without geting bombed everyday (most of the time) and women don't have to wear ten billion folds of clothing and cover their whole body, but other thatn that we're just as a slave to society and the government as they are. The government says we have rights that we can use, like freedom of speech, but when we use our right of speech, we get punished and sent to jail to be raped by Bubba. This place isn't the land of the free, it's the 'land of the maniacle, diablolical, merciless, back-stabbing government who won't let you have rights and freedom because they are a bunch of pricks!'

Thanks for the plug Melody

xxxLoAdS oF lOvExxx

Yes veary true and thanks for the compliment, all im saying is we need to do somthing to chang the way we are treated. I feal it is a sad day when our fredom is treated as nothing mor than a liabilaty.

And with that my better half just ordered me to bed..... I love irony!

of course We ARE! we just have to do whatever we like..as long as it doesn't affect or hurt our will..go with it!

Moreish has a good point we are closer to freedom than much of the rest of the world, but I feal we are not quite there yet. And I am thankfull for all that I have.

The rights people get are only to those of status and privilege...and "proper upbringing" it's all superficial..if there is anything remotely different about your appearance you're automatically knocked down, even if you have the most profound mind of all the rest. Everythings always based on the exterior, and everyone else is left to suffer because only the "beautiful people" gain access to privilege...though it's only beautiful by false standards, and fake people

no we are not we must still hide what we really are

freedom huh
to the future or to the past, to a time when thought is free, when men are different from one another and do not live alone-
to a time when truth exists and what is done cannot be undone:
from the age of uniformity,from the age of solitude, from the age of Big Brother, from the age of doublethink- greetings!

Thoughtcrime does not entail death.....thoughtcrime is death

1984 is still much closer than we like to accept people....

america is not only hipocrytical on the right to freedom, its like that with everything. I want to move to canada

ahh yes and us canucks are soo free
heheh i'd wanna get out of the fortress of amrica too....but don't delude yourself....we are very similar

I totally agree with you anarchy !

Thanks for that, but what is this about canada being more privaleged Ive been to canada its no free-er than we are hear if aneything less.

less freedom then promised.
army is less freedom then that.

By the way this is the poem that Melody was refering to earlier.

America the land of the free?
The land that judges me.
The land that tries to change my ways.
The land that tries to hide me every day.
How is that freedom anyway?
A government for the people by the people.
We are the people.
But we have no choice.
We have no voice.
We vote for one of two.
One says this.
One says that.
Sounds the same what choice is that?
President this, President that.
They represent the ruling class.
Justice system ?
Is there justice in the system?
Or is it just us in the system?

I disagree with looking different eliminates, or reduces your freedom, there are so many laws to prevent the treatment,and so much you can do to ensure what is fair is fair.

I understand of course, maybe once in a while is a battle.... but we need little challenges to make us feel alive, else life would be boring.

I look very different to many, not only my height but appearance as well. and being a woman doesn't help much either.

I only found restriction in my life for work where I was too tall, nothing to do with teh way i look etc (to answer the question I was trying to be a air-hostess)

Yes I agree some would be more challenged, some will have to fight harder, some might even be down trodden, but really, for the handful of times you lose.. how many times do you win?

I love life challengs, is what fires my temper, makes my heart race so that the victory, tastes so much sweeter if I had to work for it.

Did I get off track? >:)

oops heheh

Ya its true that victory, tastes so much sweeter if I had to work for it. But its allso true that it hurts more to be givin something then have it takin away then to never have it in the first plave, like "FREEDOM"

no one is really free. for no one can excape the mass mind rape. society is poision, and were the lab subjects. its all about political pollicy, but yet were on the verge of war. were rotting from the inside and the out side. both agressing in there proper prospectives. all i got to really say is, home land security my ass. that and bush is a dick. =x sorry =x

"Weapons not food, not homes, not shoes
Not need, just feed the war cannibal animal
I walk tha corner to tha rubble that used to be a library
Line up to tha mind cemetary now
What we don't know keeps tha contracts alive an movin'
They don't gotta burn tha books they just remove 'em
While arms warehouses fill as quick as tha cells
Rally round tha family, pockets full of shells"
Rage Against The Machine.

"We don’t need no education.
We don’t need no thought control.
No dark sarcasm in the classroom.
Teacher, leave those kids alone.
Hey, teacher, leave those kids alone!
All in all it’s just another brick in the wall.
All in all you’re just another brick in the wall."
-- Pink Floyd, The Wall

"The world is a vampire, sent to drain
Secret destroyers, hold you up to the flames
And what do I get for my pain?
Betrayed desires, and a piece of the game...
Despite all my rage I’m still just a rat in a cage..."
-- Smashing Pumpkins, Bullet With Butterfly Wings

No.
We're told we are free yet do something you think is part of your freedom like goin down a road singin at the top of your lungs you can get arrested or if you speak your mind whatever the case you can end up in prison so no we are not free

"If you think your free try walking into a diner and taking a piss on a barstool"

ha! free? haha! the government tells us what to think, this place is full of happy, mindless zombies. seen the movie stepford wives? THAT'S BLOODY PERTH! the government tells the media what to put on tv, the tv tells the people what to think, the dumbass people think it, and the few left like me are frowned upon by society. did you know they arrested a goth boy a few months ago in perth because they said his spike bracelet was a concealed weapon? it's not concealed if you can see it stupid! but yeah enough of my ranting, i think that is little land of oz is no where near free.

The moment we were given rights and freedoms we were no longer free, as they had been given to us, we lost or freedom to choose.

We have choice but we never placed it there, it was another’s thoughts and decision as to what we may choose not our own.

Much like governments today I feel, (thus being only my opinion)...but we have parties to elect; we are given these parties so that we may feel we have the choice to make change. However upon such party being elected is there truly a significant change? And how similar parties are in the changes they will preach, yet upon being elected such change rarely happens. To I, I feel there is one government and the parties are like cable television bundles placed there to capture your interest and have you feel it is your own true choice of what you want however in reality they are directing us as to what to choose.

Seems to me that asking if we are free is like asking if anyone here is beautiful or truly happy. If your looking for a perfect freedom, well its a great ideal, but its a little naive. It was prposed that people of high socio-economic status are more free than middle class and poor, but I must point out that many of them live under the constraints of their class and the expectations that come with it. Many of them worry a lot more about the face they put forward than I do.

if you have ever tryed to slam a revolving door, you are not free

if you have ever pushed a door when it said pull, you are not free

=X

Well, for me yes I believe we live in the land of free. Having travelled around the world a lot, I have seen people struggling and suffering because their system of politics is not free.

However, I believe that is one way at looking at what the word freedom..what is truth, what is inside and your conscience are really what dictates your freedom. In my humble opinion.

Yes we r free to do what we want to a certain degree (as in law and obeying it )

as for at home i can't be free i have kids :o)

Define freedom... it can have an array of definitions. Like Em said, there are countries who struggle and have nothing - they're goverments treat them unjustly, and there is probably no chance of them rising above it, morbid I know - but reality. In Canada where I'm from, we have an immense amount of freedom - and I'm sincerely grateful for that. I'm a lot better off than I think. If your speaking freedom within ourselves, that's a little different. We are always trapped by something whether it be society, or our own judments and beliefs. We can hold ourselves back from achieving great things, or even put a hold on coming out of our shells and being who we are - there are so many factors that affect this freedom unfortunately. To be truly free, we must let go of our inhibitions and worry and just live.

* We are always trapped by something, whether it be by society, or by our own judments and beliefs. *Edit*

Ok, I've waited to put my 2 cents in. I've agreed with so much on this thread so far. Here goes: Are we free? In so many ways yes we are.

If we were in the Middle East, if you stole something, the hand would be chopped off. If a man cheats on his wife that is fine but if a wife cheats on her husband, he is allowed to kill her. If a young girl has sex before marriage, regardless if she was raped or not, her family has the right to kill her. I saw on TV that some women come to america to get hymens surgically added to them so no one will know that they have either had sex or have been raped. They are in constant fear of their lives. They have no rights, they are not allowed to be educated. They are forced into arranged marriages.
Women are dogs.

In some places in Africa women's genitals are cut off so they are unable to enjoy sex.

We certainly would not be able to voice our opinions if they disagreed with the government. If you were suspected of it, you would be tortured and killed. Your body probably never found.

So in that sense, yes we are free.

If we didn't have rules and laws to abide by, there would be complete chaos. Granted, in my opinion some laws can be too strict and then others are too lax.
America is not even close to being perfect. I would never try to claim it is. But here I am, I have a career in the navy, I own my house, and bring up 2 children mostly by myself. There are so many places where I would have been dead already. I am greatful for the freedoms that I do have. =)

no way if i fealt free then i wouldn't go on places like this to escape real life

hell no thats why im moving to the Netherlands where u have more freedom

i don't believe we are totally free. The concept of government prohibits freedom. I do however believe that we who live in America do have more liberties than most countries. Although in the Netherlands, they don't give a shit. You could walk into a bar at age 16, and order a beer, a marijuana brownie, and the blonde in the corner.

"Nothing'...and thats all that Bobby left me...hey...Feeling good was easy lord, when sang the blues...and feeling good was good enough for me..mmmhmmm.. good enough for me and my Bobby MCGee..."

Damn i love that song... good pick Daniel.

Btw...for those of you that just hate America oh so much cause yo dont have the right to do anything... specifically you GIRLS...
Ladies-
Try not being
able to go out in public because the wrong sex.
Fellas-
Try having your hand cut off because you tried to feed the family you cant afford to put clothes on...

Everyone-
Try having to have a stack of papers as thick as half the encyclopedia britanica just to move half a block down the street.

Ladies-
Try not being able to divorce your husband... but HE can divore his wife just by saying "I divorce you." three times, at which point you are thrown to the streets in shame with no help...he keeps the kids...and burns yer shit.

How about this one, girls?--

How about being offered to your husbands business partners as a blessing for the discussion they are about to have...

How about being beaten to the point you pass out...damn near from bleeding... having stitches across your ENTIRE BACK...

And ladies... how about this one?
How about having your clitoris SCRAPED OFF with a relatiely dull ROCK??
Hrm?... Like that idea? Just so you dont enjoy sex enough to cheat on the husband that is probably the one who gave you AIDS in the first fuckin place...
How about them apples, girls?

Forgive me if I happen to like the fact that our government doesnt make me hide my hair.
It allows me to be out after nightfall.. and divorce my husband AND keep the kids... without having my shit burned.
I like being able to discuss business with men. I like NOT having to leave the store when money is being discussed... BECAUSE I DONT HAVE A DICK.

Im actually quite proud that our military... you remember... the men and women who DIE for your ability to say "Fuck The Man!!"... is entirely volunteer.
Russia's military is mandatory...as well as damn near the entire former EASTERN BLOCK.

You people piss me off. You have no idea the amount of rights you have.
I'd give my life for your ability to burn the flag... it's legal to do that. But my Marine Corps buddies would come kick your ass for it. But hey... dont let that stop you...
after all...

It Is A Free Country.

Right on Khayman!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you thank you thank you!!!!!!!!!

Anytime, darlin.
*I*... unlike some Cranial-Rectaly inverted FIVE YEAR OLDS...
Happen to love the country we live in... specifically for those right we do have. Now granted... some people would prefer to be beaten as opposed to have life in prison... however... obviously those people have never been tied to a wall... had a corck shove in their mouth... and beaten with a whip for half an hour.
Kiss MY ass, you dont think we're free??

I don't think I can say it enough times...
YOU PEOPLE PISS ME OFF.

You hate this country to god damned much then YES.... move the fuck up out...

More room for people who believe in the right to chose...

Assholes....

*sigh* and to think that I, being in the military, defend these idiots and would give my life up for their freedom and liberties.....what a world we live in. It's such a selfless job....*angelic smile*

Janette, I think you hit the nail on the head. The governments and their laws are a double-edged sword. We will never be 100% free so long as we have these laws in place. But that same body of laws is protecting the freedoms we do have, which other nations do not get to enjoy. But also, as you noted, that is completely different from the liberties that we take for ourselves. If we do not allow ourselves to be more than we think we are, we will be shackled by our own self-constraints.

Angelpie, applause and admiration for your two cents, and for still fighting for what you believe in.

SyntheticDarkness, then I hope you consider yourself lucky that you have such a forum as this where you can be free to say what you think, ask the questions you have, and not be shunned by those who do not understand. Even VR is not perfect, but it's the best fourm I've ever seen and I'm proud to be here. In any given moment there will always be those who wish to take away our freedoms, and vigilance and resistance against that is the best weapon.

SatanicVampire, sigh. The Netherlands have no greater freedoms, they just have more liberal attitudes. They still have laws, restrictions, and people who are intolerant of differences. My god, look at Theo van Gogh, the Dutch film director who was recently shot dead. His film championed a cause and was a beacon of "free speech", exposing the violence that some Muslims inflict on their women. Only to be shot and killed for his voice. In the Netherlands. No place is perfect. You have the right to live here, there or anywhere. You have the right to suffer tyranny anywhere in the world, too. Moving away is only running away.

MetalMessiah, at only age 16? Why, that sounds like the oppression of youth to me. Why not let any man, woman, or child do such things? Gee even in the Netherlands the tyranny of oppression hangs over your heads. Yes, I'm being sarcastic, forgive me, but my point is very simple...

Mankind can never truly be free. We like to be led. We like to be leaders. We don't really believe we are equals; our pride gets in our way. We like order and hierarchies. We're used to it. The best we can hope for is to not live in fear of intolerance.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

"Come see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help, I'm being repressed!"
"How can you tell he's a king?" "He's the only one who hasn't got shit all over him."
-- Both from Monty Python and the Holy Grail

Khayman - Preach It, Sister, Preach It!

Angelpie - I try to remember the part of the oath..."To protect against all enemies, foreign AND domestic" when dealing with ignorance, knowing that some of us signed away our lives on the dotted line just in case our country demanded our lives for the future existence of our country. I saw a bumper sticker at Ranger Joe's at Ft Bragg that I will be picking up on my next trip there. "I serve, so you can bitch!" The extent of some people's ignorance still astounds me. Like a friend just ended an e-mail to me, "If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Vet!"
No one is totally free, like it was said, without rules, chaos would reign. I, muself, am glad to have some guidelins to go by. They keep me on track and in the right direction. Some are too strict, but those are the ones that presume to try to get into my personal life, and some tree-hugger thought they knew what was best for my life was for me to live like them. Pah! The basic 10 commandments (which most ALL laws are based off of) are just fine with me.

Anyone remember these words? If not...rent "A Few Good Men." Watch it. Then grow the fuck up, move out of daddy and mommy's house, get a job, look REAL life in the face. At that point, you'll be BEGGING for the freedom you used to whine about.

"Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lieutenant Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand at post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to."

God i love that man....

Since I can't edit my own post, let me bring out and draw attention to just one line from the previous quotation.

"I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it."

Until YOU get up on that wall. Or until YOU stop hiding from what's outside your front door, YOU have no room to quibble over how this, or any government protects the FREEDOM it provides.

Join the volunteer services that our country maintains. Join the Peace Corps. Become a lobbyiest or politian. VOTE! Yeah, that's part of your freedom too. Make a difference, or at least try to. That's all I'm saying. Do so PRIOR to flaming the very freedoms that allow you to even speak openly about them.

GO READ THE BILL OF RIGHTS!

Bev is in the Army, Jason works for the military sealift command, and I am in the Navy.....

Do you have any idea what we have sacrificed for this country? I personally have sacrificed 10 years of holidays with my family, countless hours of sleep, and most important 1 1/2 years of my daughters life.....I never got to see any of her firsts except for her first tooth. I missed her first Xmas, her first birthday, her first steps, and her first words and so much more.

.Jason only gets to see his 4 yr old son a few times a year.....and we do this...for you.

What I want, is for you to go overseas, be it on a ship or on land and see for yourself what the hell we do for you.

I want you to be completely exhausted and still have to keep going because if you dont, you will be shot by the enemy.

I want you to feel the fear some of us have felt. I want your ship have to be surrounded by a fleet of other ships because you're an oiler and a target and if you get hit you're dead.

I want you to be afraid that because your ship is rolling so hard you wonder if it may sink.

I want you to work 13 hour shifts and pick up your kids, help with the homework , put dinner on the table, put the kids to bed and then start all over again at 4am. And I want you to do it yourself because you have no one to help you.

I want you to put up with the bullshit we put up with in the military. And then you fucking tell me how it feels. I want you to feel the sacrifice.

We give up OUR freedoms, OUR liberties, OUR families and we sign on the dotted line so you can sleep at night and NOT have to worry about things soldiers coming into your house and killing your family, not have to worry about your house being bombed.

This is the oath I took for you:
I, _____, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God

All for you, you snivling little shit who has no idea what the real world is like.

Yeah.. *bucks up*
WHAT SHE SAID.

As a United States Marine let me start off.

Think of this you have this forum to speak your mind and question authority of events that happen in your lives.

Great. A Thank you would be nice to ALL who have served, IS seving, or Will serve.

It makes me sick to think of all the blood spilled for your right to whine.

Solution: MOVE! need a ticket? I'm sure a collection can be obtained.

It is YOU people who (as Jason quoted Jack) "Use freedom as a punchline." It is YOU people who have demoralized this country by "not having enough freedoms" or feel infringed upon, by common moral rules that moral people seem to live by.

Don't like it? Leave it!!! Give me a post, and I'll send you a ticket to a country of MY destination, since you have "no" freedom now, then it's only fair that I get to cast you down to whatever shithole I feel appropriate!

Assholes!

Ooh-Rah, Semper Fi!

OOH RAH DAYRYN!!!!!!!!!!!!

::singing::
If the Army or the Navy ever gaze on heavens scenes...
They will find the streets are guarded by
UNITED STATES MARINES!!

OHH-RAH!

Ooh-rah, bro! I vote for Sudan.

Sudan? That's too nice....I say straight to Iraq.....!!!

rofl

I can only imagine the posts I will get from this...

Freeloaders.

Thanks K, J, and A.

Damn, I picked the wrong time to go get gas and stuff! I get back and feel like a turd for not being here to speak my 2 cents worth. I love you guys. Nothing to get someone's back up like a few whiney assholes crying about their lack of freedoms. I got some money to put towards those tickets. Was gonna buy a new car stereo system, but I think I'll get more joy from the lack of background noise from all the babies blowing snot-bubbles about "I can't do this." or "I can't do that." And, when the fuckers decide to do us a favor and leave, make sure they have the WHOLE round of necessary overseas innoculations. Especially the ISG shot with the 18 gage needle. But don't give them the sensitivity classes...throw 'em out there to figure it out for themselves.

Oh I'm sure theyll have no problem figuring it out for themselves, Bev....
Apparently they know everything as it is.

Hell yeah Bev!!!!!

i need lots of coffiee for this one

as long as the human has an ego, we are not free. he will try to control, and with control comes rebellion. then comes laws, and fighting. then a system is put into action to controll the fighting. then more laws and rules to restrict actions to prevent this. so, no. not as long as man has an ego. we will never be free. this is why world peace is impossiable also.

It seems to me that a few people that have conrtributed to this thread feel that freedom means the abscence of any governing body. Such a state seems impossible since in any instance there is always someone who governs. It could be as structured as an appointed official or as simple as the person that can tell you what to do because they have something you need; You have to comply because what they have you can't get any other way.
I have enjoyed reading the directions in which this thread has gone. It does make me wonder though what kind of Freedom Anarchy 101 was talking about? Maybe he can chime in so that the answers are a little more focused. It's been interesting to read how everyone has personalized the topic though being that Anarchy 101 lgave us freedom to do so(?)

(snicker)
Bev said "snot bubbles"
(Collapses in giggle fits)

You can have my freedom. But you cannot have my snot bubbles.

"Holy fucking Freedom talk Batman"

Snot bubbles that was good.

I read the whole freaken thread my god. I'm sure my brother who's in the Navy
and just got back a couple months ago from Iraq (In one piece thank you) Whom left his wife and kids for almost a year to defend your freedom would not appreciate your ungratefullness. In fact he might knock the snot bubbles right out of your nose for ya.

Here's some advice

Take a fucking shit or get off the pot and stop fucking crying about how bad it smells.

Love the rant Dayryn!

Had to drop a note in appreciation of pure passion

M

Ok, now that I've had a full night of sleep to cool of, I'll answer the original question:

Yes, I feel free where I live.

*hugs Jason once he's cooled off*

Hell no, but I wish more then anything that I was. I'd like to feel that way someday, but first I have to get the hell out of dodge meaning where I am right now.

Right on to all my fellow service members and even though i'm getting out i still feel the way i always have about this country and what we in the military are enduring away from our counrty and even right here.I WAIT for someone to tell me that the miltary needs nothing else from the tax payers,oh yeah i have no tact when it comes to stupid people.My nanna had to shut me up when one of my grandfather's nurses came in and made a comment about the military going in to wipe out innocents.I looked dead at her and asked her "Have you ever sworn to follow somebody no matter what and not marriage either you still have a choice,have you been away from your family for months at a time somewhere where they'd rather drag your body through the streets then speak to you but they tolerate you because you are the lesser of two evils?Have you gone to bed at night with gear next to you hoping that you don't ever have to put it on in 100+degree weather?"She said no"I said well i have and i did it cuz i volunteered so you could talk shit so SHUT THE FUCK UP IF YOU HAVE NOTHING CONSTRUCTIVE TO SAY!" ok venting done

OOoooooooooooh Pandora.....Go you!!!!

I was discussing this thread via e-mail with a friend of mine who just retired. She asked that I put her 2 cents in. LOL Here it is:

After giving 20 years of my life, so you're little milquetoast ass can sit home and snivel on some chat about not being free, I pay for my own medical insurance, pay for my own health care (which I was told would be free to me for life), and have the great opportunity to work two jobs to pay the pills I've incurred due to my "extravagant" lifestyle of wanting things like a car that runs, a house in a decent neighborhood, and food on my table. My bills are all paid, I take no handouts and I still fly my flag and love my country. Merle Haggard said it best ' if you don't love it, leave it!' We'll be proud to defend your right to do that to. And take Susan Sarandon, Sean Penn, Tim Robbins and Barbra Streisand with you. Hope you find that happy perfect place you're looking for, because, flaws and all, I will take my country any day. And I will defend to the death your right to sit at your computer and whine about my beautiful home land and my lovely, billowing flag. God Bless America!!! And all our troops who are still serving to help keep us free.

I would rather do without your friend's opinion, I deplore it - I don't even respect it. Since the the cloth-eared bint would neither have the wit nor adroitness to appreciate any kind of criticism, I won't waste my time (well not until she's gone and thought about what she's said.)

O and tell her to go off and read "the Trial," by Franz Kafka - the man summarized the tragedy of bureaucracy in one --ing line :

We can do all this without killing or torturing so many people

Since I'm spilling my bile, here's another --ing quote from the man

Why put people in concentration camps or other unpleasant places when they can be quite as easily controlled along "democratic," lines in their own homes -- and be entertained at a profit to.

I'm surprised it took this long for this thread to degenerate into an anti-American commentary.

Most of the world is anti-American. It's a complex subject... But I think most of it stems from jealousy.

I would like to see a *proven* better way. Ideas are great. The real world is another matter. When you strip it all down, the U.S. has done far more good than bad. There has never been a more generous nation. I suggest the whiners quit taking American money... then they wouldn't sound quite so hypocritical.

Are we Free? Yes!!! I have lost friends and family to wars and conflicts to keep this nation free for me and my friends and family. We are not perfect but to many have died for the cause of freedom.

There is a right you have in this country. If you don't like it change it but if all you can do is bitch about it then I say get the hell out and see how it is in other countries.

I am sick of people slamming us, Slamming our Men and Women overseas fighting for the freedom of us and others.

If the world did not have America then we would be in poor shape. So before you open your mouth Think before you say something stupid.

Freedom is a right and so many have died for it.

"I disagree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." If Voltaire had seen his words used in the context that Angelpie's friend used them he would have laughed. You see Voltaire was suspicious of authority - indeed his home was a mile or two from the borders of Switzerland, so that he could easily slip out of reach of the authorities. Voltaire was also considered nothing more than an impudent libertine such as, I don't know : Susan Sarandon, Sean Penn, Tim Robbins and Barbra Streisand.

As for Cancer, you are right that I'm jealous of America, but as for the accusation that I'm anti-American, I'm not. I would mourn the loss of a country, that has as its foundation the Declaration of Independence.

And for DarkAdmin, I'm sorry if I've offended you. As Voltaire himself said : 'One word in the wrong place will ruin the most beautiful thought.'

'WHat the land of the free? Whoever told you that is your enemy.'

Ive just quoted Rage Against The Machine... I can only get sadder from here ;-)

If, in ENgland, going around a round-about three times consecutiely is a stoppable offense, what do you think?

We are more free then you know.

To be a bit deeper than my previous giddy answer...

I study Philosophy, and we have been proposed with the idea that a donkey is in a field, equidistant to two stacks of hay. Both stacks are identicle in every way. Which does the donkey choose?

We have been told that the donkey starves to death becasue it has no reason to choose one over the other, whereas I feel that shouldn't this donkey have the freedom of choice to decide not to starve, and to break the expectations of determinism?

Presumably he looked at both stacks, yes? If the donkey was a human, he would pick the stack he last looked at.

Yes, the donkey sees both stacks, however has no reason to choose or not to choose. I agree that the donkey should in fact choose the last one he looks at, but apparently that isnt how its seen in Philosophy.

The stack he last looked at. Clever, Daniel. Quite clever.

Its the whole idea of Determinism. DO we have the perspective of freewill, or was everything, including the beginning of the world itself denoted by something higher which led to an unstoppable chain of events which cannot be changed. My lecturer explained it as driving a train and believing that you guide it, not the tracks.