The Ultimate Vampire Resource and Directory

I speak to a man regularly, I don't really know him I just see him almost everyday. He firmly believes he is being haunted by the ghost of his mother, and says that he can smell her perfume at times, is aware of her, and has even seen the fire light itself. The strangest thing is that he continually discovers very soft white feathers, sitting on a chair or coffee table. Just one at a time, and he has a collection of about seven or eight now. He believes them to be angel feathers, because they're so white and silky soft. He says that he and his mother can't see or hear eachother, so they communicate in different ways.

He said that while feeling upset the other day he tried speaking to his mother, and to his astonishment found a new feather, the longest yet, sitting on in his bed, followed by the scent of her perfume.

Have any of you ever heard or or experienced such phenomenon, possibly involving a deceased loved one? Do you, like he, think that these are really angel feathers, or perhaps some sort of sign?

I cant say,but they sound like eider down to me coming out from matresses or pillows.

Does he own geese?

But seriously, I have witnessed first-hand little oddities with both my grandparents on my Moms side. When my grandfather was alive, he made a sculpture of a stork trying to swallow a frog, but the frog had wrapped its hands around the storks throat. He wrote "Never give up" under that and that was his little mantra.

When he died, he donated his body and the hospital had a "ceremony" for family. While sitting through the ceremony, I saw a frog sitting quite still near my grandmother. This was not an outdoor ceremony, in fact, it was in a huge conference hall of a hospital (not too easy for frog infiltration). The frog stayed for the whole ceremony and left.

Until her death, my grandmother often found live frogs in odd places (who knows, maybe it was a sign of the apocalypse?) and there were occasions where I was visiting my grandmother toward the end of her days and we would sit her out on the patio -- whaddya know! A beautiful stone blue frog hopped up near my chair and I picked it up and placed it on our table where it sat near my grandmother until we went back inside.

To this day, my family and I see frogs in odd places and it sort of became the belief that it was him checking in on us -- especially since any frog run-ins were usually in odd places (meaning NOT a lily pad in sight)

My sis and I,we find dimes.

No, nothing on feathers but appearance of Aqua Velva aftershave apparently from a deceased father.

since my grandfathers death I always know when he is around because I will see and smell Pipe smoke and no one smokes in my home. I feel that many loved ones that have passed find a way to communicate with us or just let us know that they are still near by and watching over us..To me they are our guardian angels .....

Tell him to say hello. Talk as you normaly would ,they hear you but have trouble "speaking" back to you. Happens often gifts appear. So you KNOWN they were there,not just a dream. I' here notice me & know I'm here for you now.

A friend of mine and her Mum use to smell the odor of a man, as if he had been working in a garden or something, and could feel him standing behind them at their old house, but didn't ever find things.

Probably an old family member, Hitting your smell sense to let you know he is there watching you. No need to leave anything since you know he is there and that is all is needed.

that's a touching story i've heard of a few similar things but most were a bit more violent...

I smell someone smoking in the house sometimes

Any smokers that used to be in your life? Maybe an unc who loved pipes?

Pleasant sentiments, how remarkable, I would have a warming feeling of presence when I look at my grandmas painting.. no paint smears though.. a very special guy your friend.

Oh yeah had an aunt that smoked

i have not had feathers but i have seen my uncle's spirit as a shadow i'v even talked to him

Last October when my uncle passed away i heard a bell at the time he died. I am waiting to see if anything else happens this oct

My sister-in-law's husband died in a house fire. They often smell smoke at the new house which was build almost behind where the first house was. They especially notice the smoke smell like when they got a new big tv. They think he came to check it out. Also when she is upset about something, sometimes she will smell the smoke. She's convinced he's watching over them. So, ya, I think the feathers could be a sign from her. I'm not sure if they are angel feathers, but I'd say a sign.

I honestly have never heard of feathers being left behind before but thats rather interesting. But my brother swears that our mother haunts his house where he took care of her before she passed last year. He says he can smell her favorite perfume quite strongly on occasion and that her music box appears to have been moved when he does notice the scent.

I don't think the feathers are from heaven but if it helps him feel close to his dead mother what is the harm.

i used to smell my grandma purfume here and there followed by a strange feeling but ive never found feather

well actually my girl finds feathers from her father since he passed on, so i dont see that as being unusual, it just like me being followed by dragonflies by my grandfather.

I find coins.... knowing that it is my father. Often times the television will shut off unprovoked by any remote control usage. I think the finding of those feathers is remarkable and beautiful.

Well lets get the Angel part out of the way first....if he takes the feathers to a local vet that should sort that out.

Feathers ( from birds ) and suchlike are often left as a sign that a loved one is trying to communicate, likewise certain smells.

I must mention that this man lives in the middle of a big city, so we know it isn't bird feathers from geese or chooks. And also, I thought maybe he means down feathers from a pillow, but apparently not, like they're too long, only one appears at a time and in random places in his house.

I liked CryingDutchess's story about the frogs, that's really sweet and definitely peculiar. I've also heard of people finding coins. I think our loved ones do sometimes like to remind us that they are still there with us, watching, and looking after us.

Feathers appear to be an evolutionary mutation from scales. I think most people recognize that the stereotypical classic view of angels with feathered wings is just an iconic-type suggestion. Metaphysical beings should have no need of anything as obviously physical as real feathers.

I would think that if we actually continued to exist beyond our death and chose to try to communicate with a loved one, we could do far better than leaving feathers around.

I know it's not as much fun to first seek rational naturalistic explanations but in this case, even the mystical or spiritual explanation seems to be completely lacking in forethought.

Most cities have quite a pigeon population but their are too many possible sources of feathers to actually try to explore without having access to the areas where he claims to be finding these feathers.

Beast > Just a quick comment re communication from loved ones....feathers etc ( not from Angels ) are known as apports and feature quite alot in communication with those who have passed on.

myself I feel many of us experience similar things from pasted loved ones such as the smells, or objects ot things in general. I could even swear I have actually seen some one close to me that had passed and followed them and when I got close enough... they were gone. We have guardian angels and I think that many of our loved ones or close person to us are still there watching over us.

I have often smelt the scent of a departed one around me I am always happy when I do cause I know that they are watching over me.

Sinora,

More accurately, they feature quite a bit in assertions of communication with loved ones from beyond the grave. The reality is there has never been a verified case of any such communication.

My point is simply that these assertions make little, if any sense at all. Angels are depicted as metaphysical entities, not birds. Therefore, actual physical feathers would be useless and nonsensical. As far as communication from beyond the grave, if you actually existed as some kind of metaphysical entity and wanted to communicate with a loved one, don't you think you could do a bit better than leaving a feather? What kind of communication is that? Why not a dirty sock, a cotton ball or a spool of thread?

There is much to suggest that this is simply wishful thinking. People want to believe their loved ones persist beyond death. So if they can find anything of mystery, such as the appearance of feathers from an unknown source, they attempt to create a link which doesn't exist. It's rather like finding an occasional candy bar wrapper in your front yard and instantly assuming it's a communication from a dead loved one because they used to like that brand of candy bar. The more rational conclusion is that someone living who likes that kind of candy bar is leaving their discarded wrappers in your yard.

Wow beastt17 do I denote abit os sarcasim in your post. LOL people know that a candy bar is not left by a loved one who has passed that is ridiculious, yet as for the feathers and angels... well I do not know if they have them I doubt they do yet it is a simple sign that could be from a loved one that has passed. Just as was posted in many of the responses there is smells, and little things that only one would refer to the departed as a sign. I mean if you do not believe so be it yet many do believe in the signs, and even if they are not from the departed is it wrong for that person to feel good to THINK it is? I think not yet hey it is just an opinion and you know what they say about them LOL

VelvetShadow,

Re: "Wow beastt17 do I denote abit os sarcasim in your post.

There is absolutely no sarcasm intended. I'm simply suggesting a bit of reason be applied.
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Re: "LOL people know that a candy bar is not left by a loved one who has passed that is ridiculious, yet as for the feathers and angels..."

I'm not so sure they do. In perusing the forum I find people can believe in just about anything if they simply want to believe it. Wouldn't the wrapper to a favorite candy bar be more significant than a feather? obviously, people eat candy bars. They don't grow feathers and they certainly would have no use for feathers after death. So from a perspective of reason, the candy bar, while certainly not being a rational form of communication, should be more readily seen as being linked to a dead loved one than a feather.
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Re: "well I do not know if they have them I doubt they do yet it is a simple sign that could be from a loved one that has passed."

Okay. Let me hand you a feather. Now tell me what message I'm giving you. See? It's simply not a message. It appears more like a desperate attempt to try to link absolutely anything to a supposed living state beyond death.
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Re: "Just as was posted in many of the responses there is smells, and little things that only one would refer to the departed as a sign."

In which case absolutely anything could be read as a sign. That would include a dirty sock (how many people haven't been admonished for leaving their dirty socks around), a cotton ball (perhaps signifying clouds as in the classic version of Heaven) or a spool of thread (which people would likely see as a message if the dead relative had been a seamstress, a tailor, a fabrics or textile worker, a surgeon or any number of other things the imagination can stretch to fill the role of a message).
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Re: "I mean if you do not believe so be it yet many do believe in the signs, and even if they are not from the departed is it wrong for that person to feel good to THINK it is?

My response is...

Yes!
Yes, it is wrong. It's absolutely wrong. Are you familiar with the names "Jim Jones", "Marshall Applewhite", "David Koresh", "Dena Schlosser", "David Berkowitz", "Adolph Hitler", "Dan Lafferty", Arthur Shelton", "Jacob Garnet", "Gary Leon Ridgway", "Deanna LaJune", "Ivan Henk", "Brian Christopher", etc., etc., etc.?

All of these people either harbored or promoted absurd, unevidenced beliefs which preyed upon people's desired beliefs and lead to deaths -- in many of those cases, a lot of deaths. Holding irrational beliefs isn't just harmful to those who end up dead because of them. It's harmful to the mean intellect of the entire society. Are you familiar with The Inquisition, The Crusades, The Salem Witch Trials, the house arrest of Galileo, the imprisonment and eventual burning at the stake of Giordano Bruno? Again, these are examples of some of the tremendously damaging and sad outcomes when people hold irrational beliefs in an attempt to serve their desires. Such beliefs are absolutely harmful!

Why become an enemy of reason when reason is the only thing that has ever allowed man to advance, while ignoring reason has lead to the same unreasoned conclusions which have failed to produce anything in all the tens of thousands of years people have harbored them? Superstitions lead to intellectual stagnation. Reason leads to discovery and advancement. You're sitting at a computer. Do you suppose that technology became available through reason and evidence or believing the unevidenced?
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Re: "I think not yet hey it is just an opinion and you know what they say about them LOL."

Yes, everyone has opinions. The problem is that everyone tends to hold their personal opinions as superior to all other personal opinions, even when they are devoid of rationality, credibility and objective evidence. If you want to rate the merit of your opinions, compare them to the objective evidence. Never have subjective assertions ever shown any superiority to objective assessments -- never. Objective analysis trumps subjective assertion in every single example that comes to mind.

As the late Mark Twain put it; "In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing."

So allow me to turn your question around. Is there any harm in attempting to help bring people to a state of reason?

Beast > I certainly would agree re the Angel part as I've already said.

However if you visit the Spiritualist National Union Site you will find lists of books which document such things as apports.

Any person is of course free to have there own opinion on such things, I however regard apports as something rather more than wishful thinking.

My first though was the same as Oceanne's reply. The feathers could be from a pillow. As far as the rest of it - the perfume and such - I have definitely heard of those circumstances, never the feather thing though.

Sinora,

Do you grasp the difference between documenting an event and documenting a claim to have observed an event? There are documented claims of seeing Elvis long after he was dead -- hundreds of them. There are documented claims of toasters that imprint the image of the Virgin Mary on the toast (even though no one knows what she looked like or if she really existed). There are documented claims that David Koresh was the Messiah. There are documented claims that the Earth is actually flat.

Documenting a claim is easy. It takes one person to make the claim and another to write down the fact that they made the claim.

Evidence is the tough part. Is there any evidence that Elvis was out walking around after he died? No.

Is there any evidence that any toaster is producing the image of the Virgin Mary on toast? Since no one knows what she looked like or if she existed, obviously not.

Is there any evidence that David Koresh was the Messiah? No more evidence than for Jesus being the Messiah.

Is there any evidence that the Earth is Flat? Yes, but it's a matter of picking and choosing your evidence and ignoring the evidence that shows the concept to be completely bankrupt. The Earth is an oblate spheroid.

So it's certainly not out of line to ask for evidence. And when we do, we find zilch.

One more question? Did you just see that huge moth that flew between the sun and the Earth?

(The moth is now documented.)

A thought, a memory enhanced with a physical object. A subtle sentiment.. however to abuse the, and invest too much into such tangible prompts at recollection can become an obbsesion, and not allow a person to pass from their mourning/ grief phase.. it is the inability to let people pass, I notice that few who go about the medium visits are usually unaware as to what faith their loved one follows. Why speak of grief, when one can "chat" with ones loved one.. a easily exploitable thing by those in the medium biz. To have that private assurance, found in fond memories.. that can go a long way toward healthy grief, yet all the mediums I watched inaction propagate bad grieving, they prolong it, and milk it for money. A memory connected to an item or a scent is valuable to some. Yet to those that have not had that.. I would suggest you communicate with your loved ones now about how they plan to pass.. how they view the after life.

Beast > yes I do think I have a firm grasp on what is real and what is not.

Of course if your serious yourself about such things, you are as free as the next person to delve in and study to your hearts content.

I remember back in 2002 after my grandmother passed away hearing her saying that she was proud of me, and even seeing her moving through the house we once lived in.

Sinora,

You seem to assume that I haven't studied. I do study. I study those things which have supporting evidence. Those without supporting evidence cannot be studied. They are but hearsay and unsupported claims.

Only when there is evidence to study can you actually study other than an opinion.

If I witnessed an apparition of a loved one I would have the exact opposite response, I would feel sad, I would want my loved ones to pass, not linger, and if they are showing themselves to me.. I would wonder if it is me that is holding them back from passing, the spiritualist with their spirit photos, what purpose does such things serve in the grieving process, unless a loved ones "apparition" is waving as they pass into a light, I would be stricken with remorse, knowing that something kept them from passing.

While on the subject, what relavancy is their to such things?
What vague things a medium makes mention, what purpose do they serve, it always appears that the info is baseless, A medium saying, "I see your loved one motioning to money.. money that you need to bring to your next sitting.", Do you know what money they are pointing to?" I mean really the motive for a ghost appearing, someone have any idea? I would be interested in something besides, I saw so- and so.. grant an impressive memory is good for grieving, but how would one be comforted knowing that their loved one is stuck from passage? Why are all messages from mediums vague? Are ghost just bad at relating their probable urgent messages?

Beast > Had you indeed made a study of Spiritualism I think you would have found a mountain of evidence, it's what the religion itself is based on...evidence of survival.

Lets not be selfish and hog this thread, please message me if you would like to continue.

Sinora,

Re: "Beast > Had you indeed made a study of Spiritualism I think you would have found a mountain of evidence, it's what the religion itself is based on...evidence of survival.

Then perhaps you should pop up Google and search for my name "Beastt" (with two "t"s), and "Christian Forums", where you will find the 13,000+ posts all based on my study of claims of spirituality. It's a bankrupt concept as is clearly displayed across the pages of their General Apologetics section. Keep in mind that the most recent entries there are under strict pro-Christian rule where certain concepts and even certain words are prohibited because it's a site attempting to promote Christianity. But all religions are discussed there (or used to be), and there is never a single shred of credible evidence in support of the idea of spirits, ghosts, etc. I spent 6-7 days a week, 4-6 hours a day there for about 4-years before the new biased rules finally persuaded me to leave.

Re: "Lets not be selfish and hog this thread, please message me if you would like to continue.

Test takes up very little storage relative to the cost of storage these days. The thread is here for anyone who wishes to post. We're not being selfish. We're utilizing the forum in its intended manner.

NOOO please continue in the thread,it is always a good thing to hear the pros and cons.And everything being presented is great.Someone has to be a devils advocate in order to get people to really think.And you can bet its gonna be Dab or Beast..sometime myself.Come on guys,we can do this,I for one dont think anyone is being fascicious or anything,everyone is just putting up things to think about.Some are calling for hard evidence..nothing wrong with that is there?
How are we ever going to get past the straight up 6 word posts that consist of nothing but opinion if we cannot contuinue?Best part is that no one,and I do mean NO one knows the answers to these questions..so one can never say who is right or wrong.

Well said, Oceanne. No one should ever shrink from a request for evidence or a chance to learn. And the best teacher ever discovered has been evidence. It has no opinion and no agenda. It's the most honest of all testimony and it often speaks volumes.

Beastt ( sorry if I got the spelling wrong before ) such forums as you mention do not interest me these days, as over the last twenty or so years I have learned I don't actually have anything to prove to anybody about my beliefs.

The proof that has been given through me as evidence of survival is what is important to me on a personal level.

Spiritualism is in fact a recognised religion as I'm sure you know, I don't feel the need to say much more than that.

I hope this thread does not go off topic which is feathers I believe....well I've written my thoughts on that already.

Some seek a better statement in regards to the position of others, what it is that others place their faith in.. is it the physical claims.. does one have to see to believe? Can a person just accept a simple after life exist, without all the "Beyond the veil peeking" Are some aware that others will seek to have the same experiences, and when they don't they suffer. Yet others tell them that" everybody" is having them. expecting fireworks and missing the subtle spark of memory, and sentimental reconsilation, is that not enough for assurance that someone died and they are here no more, proof of survivial, as in they didn't die? Is not keeping a persons sould ancored to this world a bit self serving? If I had a passage to the after life, and I was truckingalong with the physical universe fading behind me, and all of a sudden, I get yanked back.. I would ignore the tug actually.. what purpose would it serve, if a person had things they did not ask me while I was there then what are they hoping for now that I am gone, how about learning now while people are alive to ask those questions the ones handed to mediums.. (strangers to you as well as to the person that passed. Please explain proof of survival?

Incidently,feathers from pillows and such can be quite long.Mostly they are filled with eider down and stuff but many times flight feathers get thrown into the mix.It might be a good thing to check the feathers more closely as suggested prior.
Another thing,I was thinking about what feathers mean in different cultures and such,and first thing I found was this.
WHITE FEATHER (noun)



Sense 1 white feather [BACK TO TOP]


Meaning:

A symbol of cowardice

Classified under:

Nouns denoting communicative processes and contents

Hypernyms ("white feather" is a kind of...):

symbol; symbolic representation; symbolisation; symbolization (something visible that by association or convention represents something else that is invisible)

Linky

Perhaps his memory connects feathers with his mom, a mnemonic device for a muddled mind (common when one is grasping for memories) it still serves him in his sentimental process, and that is a good thing. However to cling to much is a potential unhealthy matter as well.

The feather may have come from his pillow, through an open window or via someones clothing or via his Mother.

The ability to smell of her perfume is called clairsentience.

http://www.celticattic.com/tips_hints/meanings/meanings.htm
Celtic meanings for feather colours..


White – purification, spirituality.
Green – money, fertility.
Brown – health, stability, grounding.
Orange - attraction,. success.
Yellow – intelligence.
Red - courage.
Pink – love.
Gray – peace.
Blue – psychic awareness.
Black feathers - not recommended.
Red and brown – healing animals.
Brown and white – happiness.
Gray and white – hope.
Black and white – protection.
Green and red – finances.
Blue, white and black – change.
Black

My best friends mum died about 5 years ago & whenever she feels her spirit to be near she always finds a long white feather.

well beastt17 I feel if you can prove that these things DO NOT have anything to do with maybe the spirit of a departed, then maybe you could also get your poof that it does. LOL

Just because a feather reminds someone of a departed so be it I have songs that remind me of departed loved ones LOL

it couldd be a sign that she is watching over him if he believes it to be then perhaps it is or it could be an insane admirer who happends to wear the same sent as his mother did and leaves a feather as a gift in a way it's a gentle way to say I'm here :] smiles

well it is just whatever one may want to believe or not believe, yet there have been alot of people who have experienced things such as the feather being left behind once a loved one has departed who says it had to be from an angels wing .... I mean it is a feather and it just suddenly appears well than what else other than a spirit left it behind.

My uncle saved me from drowning when I was a little girl. He was on the trippy side... had a black light in his room and made his own art work with florescent markers. I think he's the reason I am as big into art as I am. Anyhow, I always feel incredibly safe when I'm under a black light. He's there enjoying the colors! =)

I havent heard of anything like that, but it sounds really cool. :) I think that they are angel feathers and maybe a sign to say that his mom is here and she wants him to know that she's here. :)

So say a person accepts that it is a manifestation, or some spirit transporting a feather to them.. now once a person accepts that (on faith) then they never witness it .. that is a terrible thing.

There are people who go around claiming some spiritual paranormal event happens to them, and it is followed by.. "Have you had an event?'I think they are Liers actually, and I think they are frauds, they are Pious, and egotist .. they think things like.."I am so gifted, open minded, and these things happen to me. They will even dismiss anything anybody shares as not being as likely as what they witnessed.. Bragging of nothing.. what purpose? Easy they want to challenge others to disagree, they want others to feel less spiritual, they want people not to discuss or share with them their beliefs they want people to believe they are the mystic, that the spirit world entertains them, that they have proof of their faith.. or belief, pathitic really.

My mother haunts me and she's not even dead...

All jokes aside, would you be able to suggest that he takes the feather to a lab and have it analyzed? I would be curious the findings on whether it's a swan, etc, or if it comes back "unknown origin".

Sinora,

Re: "Beast > Had you indeed made a study of Spiritualism I think you would have found a mountain of evidence, it's what the religion itself is based on...evidence of survival.

After reading this post I felt it appropriate to show you where you could find vast evidence of my studies. This is what I did.

You responded;

Re: "Beastt ( sorry if I got the spelling wrong before ) such forums as you mention do not interest me these days, as over the last twenty or so years I have learned I don't actually have anything to prove to anybody about my beliefs.

Which seems to completely avoid the point. You suggested that had I "indeed" studied spiritualism I should have found a mountain of supporting evidence. Yet I've shown you where and how you can confirm that I have studied as I suggested and your response is to shrink away and proclaim that you have nothing to prove concerning your beliefs.

At this point, perhaps you do. You can attempt to prove that intense, sincere study of spirituality will lead to a "mountain" of supporting evidence or, you can admit that I have studied as I indicated and yet did not fine what you suggested I would find.

And for what it's worth, most others who truly seek to study don't find this mountain of evidence, whether or not they accept the belief in spirituality. At the site mentioned, the deconversion rate is just under 13-former believers in spirituality shifting to more secular beliefs for every secular student who shifts to spiritual beliefs. In short, when the evidence is on the table, most people find the concept of spirituality to be highly unsupportable.


Re: "Spiritualism is in fact a recognised religion as I'm sure you know, I don't feel the need to say much more than that.
Many things are recognized religions and many more things have been recognized religions in the past. And the key thing to note is that the vast majority -- nearly every religion ever to exist -- along with its doctrines, god(s), beliefs, demands and standards is now relegated to myth, even by those subscribing to one of the few newer religions not yet fully relegated to myth.

I tend to believe there is a significance there -- tens of thousands of gods and religions, the vast majority of which are now seen as pure fiction -- myth. In light of that, how is one to continue to insist that religion; any religion, is other than fiction?

As for spiritualism, I often ask people what they mean when they say "spiritual". I do so in the hope that they might spend some time in deep contemplation of the question. What I continually note is that when people say "spiritual", what they're talking about is that which they find highly emotional. I suggest that spiritualism is really just emotionalism with a supposed supernatural spin. At any rate, in every debate in which I participated (dozens and dozens), it was shown to be devoid of credible supporting evidence. The fall-back is nearly always, "I don't need evidence. I have faith." And faith, from how I see it practiced in such situations, simply means to adhere to evidence, logic and reason until those things fail to support your preferred beliefs. Then to quickly abandon such things to facilitate belief in that which one wants to believe.

So I'm left to again suggest that the feathers are just feathers. They no doubt have a source, even if that source has not yet been identified and that source is, like the feathers, purely natural.

So how many feathers have been found? Where were they found? What potential sources have been ruled out and why?

mmm i had a loved one who passed away set at the edge of my bed when i had a hard day.
also i had a family member who passed away
tell me in a dream that he went to heaven.

evildollbj,

Put another way (for the sake of accuracy over pure assertion); you had a dream that a family member told you they went to Heaven.

See the difference?

Beastt17

You seem not to have paid attention to the fact that I have given my opinion re the feathers....more than once, instead of copying and pasting...please read. Thank you.

Sinora,

Re: "You seem not to have paid attention to the fact that I have given my opinion re the feathers....more than once, instead of copying and pasting...please read. Thank you."

What you said was this...

Feathers ( from birds ) and suchlike are often left as a sign that a loved one is trying to communicate, likewise certain smells.

That's simply blind-assertion piled atop other blind-assertion. If I told you that ghosts just absolutely don't exist, would you suddenly change your mind? Or does that help you to understand why pure blind-assertion is lacking in even the slightest compelling value?

If you think feathers, odors and self-lighting fires are verified activities of ghosts, then support that view with something. What do you have? You read it in a book once? You've heard other people who attempt to be convincing through nothing more than blind-assertions state so as another blind-assertion?

In trying to be courteous I've hesitated to point this out but you have nothing -- no place from which to argue. No one has ever verified that ghosts exist. No one has ever verified that ghosts attempt to communicate with the living. No one has ever verified that ghosts utilize bird feathers, self-lighting fires or smells to try to communicate with the living. It's all just raw, blind, unsupportable, hollow assertion.

If it's something you believe then fine. But why not try to tell people why you believe it instead of pretending that it's some kind of confirmed fact that the rest of us should be compelled to believe?

Neutrinos are minuscule particles which were first proposed in the 1930s. They're so small they easily slip through the spaces between the nucleus and the electrons of the atoms in your body. Trillions of them pass through the Earth every minute of every day (and night). Most of them never touch anything because they're so infinitesimally small. And yet their existence has been confirmed. So in about 70-years time they have gone from a well evidenced proposed concept to a confirmed particle.

Ghosts have been asserted to exist for thousands of years. Today -- thousands of years later, ghosts are still just asserted to be real. They've made absolutely no head-way at all because there just isn't any credible evidence for the concept. They're as likely as gremlins, Leprechauns or the Tooth Fairy. When you have some credible evidence, then I hope you will present it to all of us so that we might learn of the new discoveries. But as long as all one has is more blind-assertion, it's nothing we haven't had and heard for thousands of years. And that which goes thousands of years without making an inch of progress toward verification very likely has made no progress toward confirmation because it doesn't exist.

I respect your right to hold whatever opinion you choose. But when attempting to provide compelling reasons for others to adopt your opinion, reasons are going to be necessary. For most of us, simply repeating unverified, unevidenced blind-assertions just isn't at all compelling.

Beastt17

What I actually wrote in that post was :

Beast > Just a quick comment re communication from loved ones....feathers etc ( not from Angels ) are known as apports and feature quite alot in communication with those who have passed on.

I feel no need whatsover to argue any point with you, or indeed anyone else.

My personal experiences re Spiritualism would mean little to you and that is as it should be.

I don't use the phrase ghosts either.

Ahhh one more thing >

You posted:
I respect your right to hold whatever opinion you choose. But when attempting to provide compelling reasons for others to adopt your opinion, reasons are going to be necessary. For most of us, simply repeating unverified, unevidenced blind-assertions just isn't at all compelling.

I have never attempted to compell others to adopt my opinion EVER.....that I leave to people like yourself.

Sinora,

Under the circumstances I feel compelled to point out that claiming you never try to convince others to accept your beliefs as their own is something like posting the claim;

"I don't post in forums."

The evidence (as is always the case), is stronger than the assertion. (AKA: Actions speak louder than words.)

Beastt17

Suffice it to say I do not agree. However I wait patiently for you to bring that evidence to my attention.

Thank you.

cant say have every heard of story like this one however it sounds good. Like almost every one else I found just a bit hard to believe but then again if was happing to me I would believe that some thing or some one was trying to tell me somethinng.

They might me angel feathers you never know
i personally have had an experience with ghost,
On May the 2rd 1992 Carrie passed away on Athens road Georgia it was on a bridge his car crashed, I went to cross the bridge that he crashed on 3 weeks later, and he was standing on the bridge it sccared me so bad that I stopped in the middle of the road. Thank god i stopped there was a car coming on the wrong side of the road it would have hit me head on. But to this day I can't bring myself to go near that bridge

When matters of spirituality come up I always hear physical things happening. Yet never are these things recorded, yet people regularly claim to have them.

So what is it people that believe in spiritualism believe? What they witness (usually in a set environment, regulated by a claimed medium)

If something physical is need to then does that person have an actual spiritual assurance. Are they convinced that a Floating Trumpet.. or eerie voice is what a medium claims it is. What is so needed by people that sink into ghost stories? Studying claims for two years, i have found a pattern, one that is set with degrees of recoil from any hint of inquiry.. if one was sympathatic to a claimant they would get no solid accountable information, aside from, Well I saw a ghost.. I want to mention to people that people that report/ claim to have seen ghost are usually seeking a way to impress others with their devotion to their loved ones, some are selfish, relizing that they left a lot of chances to ask questions that linger (something that mediums know all to well, and exploit regularly.
What are people trying to relate by claiming to see ghost, or have items drop out of nowhere? What motive would a deceased person have to linger on this planet and drop feathers? Is the after life that bleak? Every person that claims to have spiritual experiences use senses to describe the experience.. is that not sensationalism.

Is it needed, do we have to have an experience? What about just believeing there is an after life.. it is there and we are here, no cross over.. no peeking over the fence, if you want to know ask a person when they are alive if they have a path to the after life. What application is there in all the spooky apparition story, beyond sentimental mnemonics?

I have heard of this like this it isn't always feathers sometimes its flowers or rain or a smell. what is happening is his mother is trying to tell him that she is looking out for him and that it,s going to be alright there isn't any reason o be afraid lots of people wish they had a Guardian ,I will not say angel because I do not believe in them.

Why are people threatened by the no belief of others?

Thats non belief, as well as skepticism of others. Why is it so important that others believe the claim of those that claim to have experienced or had shown to them?

What proxy effect does that have on others. I only want people to be clear what it is they believe, and to realize that there are ways to simulate such things, or interpite actual physical events as spirit based.

ladySnowStrixx,

Re: "I have heard of this like this it isn't always feathers sometimes its flowers or rain or a smell."

I've heard of this too. I heard about it as a child. I've heard about it as an adult. I once had a girlfriend who had a story about seeing a ghost. I've heard it in many of the threads on this forum. I've heard that Jesus loves me. I've heard that Allah is the one and only true God. I've heard that the Earth was once flooded despite the fact that it never has been nor could it be. I've heard that Elvis was walking around alive long after he was dead. I've heard that the Earth was going to end in the year 2000. Then I heard that it was going to end in the year 2001. I've heard that the money I pay to the IRS helps to build roads and schools (it doesn't; it only pays interest on the money the government borrows from a private bank). I've heard that the Iraq war is about terrorism. I've heard that the Iraq war IS terrorism. I've heard that the World Trade Center buildings collapsed because of intense heat from the fires. I've seen that the fires were mostly burned out before the buildings fell. I've heard that I will go to Hell if I don't accept an extortionate offer from a god.

We hear a lot of things. So how do we know what to believe and what not to believe? The answer is simple. It's just one word -- "evidence". Where appropriate evidence exists, there is cause for belief. Where only claims exist, there is absolutely no call whatsoever for any rational person to believe.

Re: "what is happening is his mother is trying to tell him that she is looking out for him and that it,s going to be alright"

Really?

How do you know this? How do you know that the feathers aren't falling through a crack from a pigeon nest in his attic? How do you know they're not falling from some laundry item?

Even if the feathers are just appearing mysteriously, how is it that you propose to know the significance of this event, even when you don't know him, never knew his mother and have zero evidence to present to support your claims? How do you know there really are any feathers? Have you seen them?

Aren't you just doing exactly what a lot of other people are doing -- to simply assert what you've heard as factual, simply because you have heard it and believe it without any evidential or factual basis? Is it safe to say that you feel threatened when other people believe differently from what you believe and even more threatened and challenged when they ask you for even a tiny shred of evidence to back up your assertions?

Feathers are an evolutionary adaptation of scales. They help to mark the development of reptilian species toward bird-like species. They're purely physical and purely a functional covering and insulating layer to facilitate life, not death. There is absolutely no reason for any rational person to place any other significance upon feathers, furs, scales, skins, shells or horny plates, no matter where they are found and no matter whether they can isolate the immediate source.

I sometimes find small rocks on the carpet inside my front door. I haven't seen how these rocks get there. A reasonable explanation is that they become wedged in the tread on the bottom of my shoes and are dislodged as I walk on the carpet. I could proclaim that they're a message from an ancient volcano god but I would do so without corroborating evidence. I could proclaim that gravel is reproducing spontaneously and fed by some "hidden energy" in carpet fibers but I would do so without any supporting evidence. I could run about warning people that it's a sign that a time of intense volcanic activity is returning as a result of global warming but I would be doing so completely devoid of objective evidence to support my claim.

Which would you believe? Are the tiny rocks being tracked in by sticking in the tread of my shoes? (A reasonable explanation.) Are they a sign from an ancient volcano god who is angry because we have forsaken him in our pursuit of less tangible gods such as Allah, "The Creator" or the Christian God? Are they a message from beyond a collective grave warning us about a impending dramatic increase in volcanic activity?

They're rocks... just tiny rocks. And the only reasonable explanation is that they are sticking in the tread of my shoes, and are then dislodged as I walk on the carpet.

And the feathers are just feathers. There is no reason to believe the odor of perfume is other than imagined. As for the fires that are claimed to light themselves, they're probably caused by the effects of pyrolysis due to smoldering embers and combustible material left in the fire place. It's all quite natural, quite logical and not at all supernatural or paranormal.

I ask that you take a moment, look at the world around you, learn to be objective and please stop feeding people's unwarranted superstitions. Am I being unreasonable?

Then there are the degrees of abstraction.. My cousins friends, neighbor had a para normal experience he said he saw a ghost moon him and his friends.

Skeptics Reply usually as follows..Really then what was the environment like?

Answered with, "How do I know I wasn't there." " I just trust my cousin he wouldn't lie."
(but would he amuse himself with the gullibility of his kin? )

The believers response: "Oh I saw a ghost myself.. {insert vague digest style details}"

Skeptic inquiry .. What was the atmosphere like that night?

reply.. "You probing me?" " You don't believe me, How do I know what the sky looked like I was watching everyone be scared?"

Imagine that ghosts are real and they are leaving signs..
I thought about that and while Im sure we would all love to know or think that we are getting signs from the otherworld,I also thought about what everyone has said that ghosts are.What kind of people become ghosts?
People are likely to become ghosts after their death when...

1.They have alot of unfulfilled desires.

2.Many personality defects, such as anger, greed,fear,hate , etc.

3.A lot of negative impressions in the mind.

4.A high amount of ego.

5.They have harmed others, and have the basic nature of harming others.

They lack spiritual practice consisting of progressive level of surrender of mind body and intellect.

Now why would they even want to help those they left behind If they were like that in naturel life.

Oy Beastt17, be a little more open minded and a little less priggish please. Also, it's absurd to say that someone or something would leave a sock, candy wrapper or other such sundry thing as a gift or sign. A feather is more likely to be one, especially when it is 'soft as milk' as it was quoted, and a beautiful pure white. The presence of the feather is, as I said, accompanied by the scent of the perfume and sometimes other occurrences like things moving (he mentioned something swinging) and the fire lighting itself on one occasion.
Now I take everything I hear concerning the supernatural with a grain of salt because, working for a ghost tour company, I get people everyday who think they've experienced something paranormal because they felt a cold breeze or saw a shadow. This story was moving and definitely unusual, highly believable, and physical evidence is available. The man I speak of keeps the eight feathers safely in a box.
We know nothing of what truly awaits us after death, so we can't really rule out anything. We cannot say why some signs appear the way they do, or why forms of communication or gifts are given in certain forms.

i have heard of stuff like all of this happening before to other people. We use to have stuff like that happen in the old house.

Whatever the man believes , i think its all that matters! if it comforts him in some way , thats all he needs , i think.

CherryAdvocaat,

Re: "Oy Beastt17, be a little more open minded "
This presents an interesting irony. I suggest that a candy bar wrapper is a potential message and you simply hand-wave the suggestion, then tell me I'm being close-minded because I explained, in no insignificant detail, why a feather isn't a message. Perhaps I should explain it again.

Here is a feather. (pretend I'm holding one out to you)
What am I trying to tell you?

What you're talking about isn't open-mindedness, it's gullibility -- being credulous. It's most certainly not a good thing. If I walk up to you as a perfect stranger and tell you that I'd be happy to take your car down the block, fill it with gasoline and bring it right back, and you hand me the keys, are you being open-minded or are you being foolish?

What if I'm dressed in pure white and have soft skin; does that change anything? What if I wear my hair in your favorite style and remind you of a high school boyfriend? Does that make your decision to trust me with your car any less careless?
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Re: "and a little less priggish please."
There is nothing at all wrong with being objective, practical, realistic or unromantic when assessing claims or evidence. It's actually the one thing we have to protect us from being swindled and grossly misled.

Take a note of history; never has anyone ever chosen subjectivity over objectivity and demonstrated that their subjectivity was correct while the objectivity was wrong. If you'd care to refute that, I'll be quite happy to see what you come up with.
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Re: "Also, it's absurd to say that someone or something would leave a sock, candy wrapper or other such sundry thing as a gift or sign."

A feather is no better or worse a message than a sock or a candy wrapper or a shoe or a lump of animal spore.
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Re: "A feather is more likely to be one, especially when it is 'soft as milk' as it was quoted, and a beautiful pure white. The presence of the feather is, as I said, accompanied by the scent of the perfume and sometimes other occurrences like things moving (he mentioned something swinging) and the fire lighting itself on one occasion."

No, a feather is no more likely to be a message than a sock, a wrapper, a rock, a leaf, a dust bunny or a nail clipping. You're simply applying your subjective sense of aesthetics as though they were some kind of demonstrable absolute when they are no such thing.

Let's take a closer look at this. A feather is a unit of plumage -- a scrap of a biological organism as would be a human hair, a nail or even a scab. The color of it has nothing to do with whether or not it serves as a credible message. One could just as well leave behind a nail; ripped out by the roots, a scalp, a slice of human skin or a severed eyelid. The problem is that aesthetically, you find those less pleasing. But they are no less biological tissue than is the feather.

People often imagine odors and unless there is some kind of objective evidence, there is at least as much probability that the perfume scent is being imagined as there is that it is real.

Again, I've already explained that the supposed self-lighting fire is most likely simply hot embers acting against combustible materials to produce pyrolysis leading to a sudden flame.
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Re: "Now I take everything I hear concerning the supernatural with a grain of salt because, working for a ghost tour company, I get people everyday who think they've experienced something paranormal because they felt a cold breeze or saw a shadow."

It's easy to claim that you practice a reasonable degree of skepticism but when you're telling me that a feather is a message because it's white and soft, your actions speak much more loudly than do your words. White is not a value concerning messages nor is softness. The skin of a slaughtered cow is often placed across a cattle guard because it deters the cattle from attempting to cross. It's not subtle. It's not soft, clean, white or at all aesthetically pleasing. But the cattle do seem to understand the message and since it's a human idea, it's obviously understandable to humans as well.
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Re: "This story was moving and definitely unusual, highly believable, and physical evidence is available. The man I speak of keeps the eight feathers safely in a box."

"Moving", meaning emotionally stirring. That's not any kind of appropriate rating system for the veracity of any story. It's simply the usual plea to accept emotion over reason. But any examination of people who make emotional decisions rather than rational ones clearly demonstrates what a misleading and dangerous practice it can be.

The story is not highly believable. Please don't confuse your credulousness with the believability of the story. The two are not the same thing. There has never, ever (not once), been any confirmation that ghosts or any kind of after-life are a part of reality. That alone makes the story extremely suspect. But when you mix that with the fact that no supernatural or paranormal claim has ever been verified objectively, the story carries absolutely no merit what-so-ever.

And no, there isn't any evidence. You mistake matter for being evidence even when there is nothing to link the physical matter with the claims being made. So the man has eight feathers... so what? If I produce a handful of feathers, is that evidence demonstrating the veracity of a claim that they were given to me by a fairy? They're just feathers. They tell you nothing of their origin and nothing of any kind of proclaimed message. They're not supporting evidence anymore than a four-leaf clover is evidence of Leprechauns.
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Re: "We know nothing of what truly awaits us after death, so we can't really rule out anything. We cannot say why some signs appear the way they do, or why forms of communication or gifts are given in certain forms."

But we can know the difference between logic & reason and simple superstition. And if we look to history as a sign as to the credibility of superstitious assertions, we find first a very long history, and second; the absolute absence of any kind of verification to any of history's tens of thousands of years of superstitious assertions.

When we hear over and over and over for tens of thousands of years that ghosts/spirits/souls exist and attempt to communicate with us; yet never is the claim ever verified via any objective means; that's significant. When someone assures you that the check is in the mail and after 50-years, there still isn't any check, some reasonable skepticism is more than warranted. The same thing applies here. You might like to believe in ghosts and therefore, want to believe every corroborating story you're offered. But all of the stories in the world don't mean anything if there isn't any objective evidence to support them.


Armstrong - 2009!

Sometimes faith is nothing more than a hope expressed.

Not meant to have any meaning except to the one it was left for. Perhaps the meaning you are missing is the hope it leaves for the person that finds it.

We could conjecture back and forth on what the reality is. Truth is; science right now has no explanation or measure, and those that believe do so on faith.

For me, I personally walk on the side of faith. The times I have felt a touch or a smell that I have not been present for (as in the people that smelled that way were dead for over a decade) I have been in turmoil and needing solace. That memory, glimpse or dare I say it: message- brought me the needed relaxation, rationalization, peace to clear my thoughts and make the right choice for me.

That said some will take these signs and not have introspect to really be able to use them to their greater good. Still that is a judgement call, and one that is not for me to determine.

So while your science does not explain or hold any reason for these messages, my beliefs do. And they are held in the most irrational place of all: my faith.


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
~Albert Einstein, "Science, Philosophy and Religion: a Symposium", 1941

sahahria,,

Re: "Sometimes faith is nothing more than a hope expressed."

A lot of different people have a lot of different things to say about what faith is or isn't. But if you watch what people do when they claim to be exercising faith, it's really quite simple. Faith is simply a process. It's a process that begins and ends with desire. It is a mechanism designed to facilitate belief based only on desire. Most people who claim to have "faith" demonstrate that they utilize the same evaluative system as others. They begin by observing the evidence, then applying reason and logic to interpret that evidence. If the logic leads them to what they wished to believe, they have their conclusion. But when the applied logic and reason don't lead to their desired conclusion, they simply turn their back on logic, reason and evidence and believe what they wish, rather than what is reasonable, logical and evidenced. This, they call "faith".
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Re: "Truth is; science right now has no explanation or measure, and those that believe do so on faith."

Science cannot weigh in where evidence is absent. Science could well analyze the feathers and could likely extract DNA from the proximal end of the feathers. The DNA could be matched to a particular species of bird. For any paranormal claim to survive such a test, the assertion would have to be that a supernatural entity is plucking the feathers from real birds and not from their own proclaimed wings.

Science could also be applied to analyze the area where the feathers are being discovered and seek to find their source. Video cameras could be put in place. Highly sensitive motion sensors could be wired to time-stamping clocks. Gas sniffers could be implemented to detect the ingredients common to the perfume and the fireplace could be cleaned of all partially consumed combustibles before fresh combustibles are added. Temperature monitors could be wired to clocks and video cameras mounted to monitor the fireplace.

If feathers still appeared, seemingly from nowhere, hints of perfume were detected without a source and/or fires burst forth without explanation, scientific evidence would then exist to suggest the actions of something as yet unknown and unexplained to science. But that's where every scientific discovery begins.

The problem as it stands is that the assertions are attempting to stand on nothing but assertions. It's like attempting to lean a board against itself; it cannot stand. Produce some real evidence; credible indicators that help to rule out known naturalistic processes, and you have the beginning of a claim which might suggest the paranormal. But no one has gone to the trouble of ruling out natural explanations except by exercising the tongue.
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Re: "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

You might be very surprised, were you to take the time to learn about Einstein's concept of "religion". It's not at all uncommon to hear people attempting to utilize his quotations to promote their own ideas and beliefs on God and religion. Few are left with anything to say once they learn of what he meant when he used the words "God" or "religion". Here are a few more Einstein quotes which may help to illustrate the basis of his beliefs and to demonstrate that they did not speak in support of the claims being made by those asserting the supernatural.

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms." -- [Albert Einstein, obituary in New York Times, 19 April 1955]

"The mystical trend of our time, which shows itself particularly in the rampant growth of the so-called Theosophy and Spiritualism, is for me no more than a symptom of weakness and confusion. Since our inner experiences consist of reproductions, and combinations of sensory impressions, the concept of a soul without a body seem to me to be empty and devoid of meaning." -- Albert Einstein

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." -- [Albert Einstein, 1954, from "Albert Einstein: The Human Side", edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press]

"Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes place is determined by laws of nature, and therefore this holds for the action of people. For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, i.e. by a wish addressed to a Supernatural Being." -- [Albert Einstein, 1936, responding to a child who wrote and asked if scientists pray. Source: "Albert Einstein: The Human Side", Edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffmann]

"The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge." -- Albert Einstein

"What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of humility. This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism. -- Albert Einstein

Having given some time and dedication to studying the beliefs and work of Einstein, I think it's fair to say that he would never have offered any level of approval to those who simply run with every assertion of the supernatural without first honestly seeking to understand through naturalistic means.

One might also wish to note that on occasion, Einstein failed to take his own advice such as when he noted his formulas kept suggesting an expanding universe. Rather than adhere to the evidence, he developed what he called a "cosmological constant" to adjust his outcomes to reflect a stagnant universe. He would later take to calling this his greatest blunder.

One of his other most notable failures came when he began to adhere to his idea of God. He insisted that God would not have made the universe overly complex or beyond the ability of man to easily understand. He expressed this belief through the words, "I am convinced that He (God) does not play dice." as well as, "God is subtle but he is not malicious."

This was the belief that caused Einstein to ignore quantum mechanics and even disregard his own Theory of Relativity in drafting his final work -- the Theory of Everything. This was the publication which brought him the ridicule and dismissal by his peers in physics. The theory was contaminated by adherence to subjective belief rather than pure dedication to objective evidence and it was a utter failure.

"The whole of science is nothing more than a refinement of everyday thinking." -- Albert Einstein

I think it very likely that were he to offer comment on the paranormal assertions being made in this thread, he would recommend to those making them than they begin to refine their thinking.

(Armstrong -- 2009 TdF!)

Entertaining people, that is a good application for paranormal claims. Other then that I see none.

It really discourages those that have a base, or core belief in a soul existing, simply put after we (the body dies), and that that soul goes beyond here. Then they get an avalance of people making references (most questionable or lacking credibility) and claims that the souls somehow interact with this physical world. Slump.. "I never saw a ghost." I must be a closed minded , unenlightened soul." Sad rally to think that spiritualist are crushing the core belief of people, every time they Yarn about ghost. What is invested in the persons claim? What happened to the entertainment value? I can entertain all sorts of ideas about ghost, any one can, yet to place a critiria on Ghost stories, that is lame.

I would mention that I am a ghost.. would you dismiss that? We;ll then I will pass any test you present me with. What test have you?

What was ignored was my gentle attempt to bring the topic back on track and not make it a scientific debate. Please try to stay on topic, as the author has tried to bring it back to what they were asking.

You assume much about my thoughts on Einstein and science, this thread is not the place for them.

There are plenty of other threads where one can argue the scientific theory and such- leave this one to the paranormal as it was designed by the author.

I'm not sure about "angels," but I have heard of feathers falling from the sky when there are no birds around. It can be argued that the feathers come from a nest or something, but I like to think it is from a loved one who has passed, sending us "love" from beyond.

“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.” -Albert Einstein

John Lennon said Imagine all the people.. Not believe all the people..

Creativity and imagination are tools of progress, belief and opinions based on faith/beliefs are dogmatic, and tend to lack any scale of application outside of a church social function. Yet that practice of prayer is dominating out side the church.

Prayer I have seen it used abused as gossip in prayer meeting. I have seen it used to denounce opponents of preachers that had political ties. The churches are even divided on the application and "ritual" of prayer.

I have heard of several different things like that happen, usually opening and closing blinds, doing dishes and such as if they are still alive, I have heard that when one pass's on and doesnt relise they are dead they live on in the house as it was when they were alive, even if it is remodeled they see it as original, and even sometimes become angry when you move things around, cuz then its as if you are the ghost to them... there are many strange things that happen in the paranormal that cant be explained but I definitly believe they exist from experiences I have had with things that are not supposed to be real.

I blow light bulbs..to the tune of at least three a week,no matter where I am.Sometimes more.I have more light bulbs on hand than I have socks.I go to touch things and two inches away,resulting in an audible arch that zaps the crude out me..to the point I carry a can of static guard with me at all times,and that still doesnt help.Im afraid to touch alot of things,including peeps.But do I think its paranormal? No,but I do think its weird.My pont,we can take anything and attribute it to some kind of sign or omen from beyond.

Well, Oceane, we are electrical beings, perhaps your electrical wavelength is similar to AC. Just a thought.

Ive thought about things along that line too .It might be interesting to find our.I went thru the whole ststic thing..clothes,hair enviroment..but none of that panned out.

If true I believe it could possibly be both. The truth is you never know. I have never encountered the ghost of any of my relatives, but people have told me that they have. it could possibly be from an angel, or maybe his mother is placing them there. Or maybe he has a feather down pillow with a hole in it and a spilled bottle of perfume somewhere in the house, lol.

In the end, all that matters is what he feels in this circumstance.

When my father was dying in the hospital in 1992, I rushed home on emergency leave from Marine Corps bootcamp after the call from the Red Cross. I walked into the room where the nurse was fiddling with his tubes and machines. I asked him that if he knew I was there, to please try and squeeze my hand as I was holding his right, he did it. As I smiled contentedly the nurse told me instantly that there was no way scientifically possible that he knew I was there, and the 'jerk' of his hand was an odd coincidence. Nice nurse eh? Well, at that second she said it, a tear dripped from my father's eye. He knew. I knew.

I wouldn't let the other side of the fence change what the feather man knows in his heart. It's a heart some people just don't know, have never experienced. I am proud to say I have been touched by a strength and passion that science can't explain. 'Possibilities' are what has gotten humanity this far from the days of the cave men :)

Very true,only the feather man can decide.
And sure,science cant explain everything,but logic and deduction can explain alot.It never hurts to consider all sides in everything we do.

"I am proud to say I have been touched by a strength and passion that science can't explain."

I think we all have in one form of another..mine,being some very special moments with my mother,among many other things.But proud that it has happened? No,Not me.However, I am humbled and very thankful.

Clandestine,

Re: "As I smiled contentedly the nurse told me instantly that there was no way scientifically possible that he knew I was there, and the 'jerk' of his hand was an odd coincidence."

I lost my father a few years ago. He died from cancer and as is common, the process took many months. In such cases it's not unusual for the people to be placed on special home-care programs where there is no intent to try to revive the person once vital signs cease. He was placed on a program called Hospice where the medical professionals deal only with Hospice patients -- all are terminal so they're intensely familiar with those who are dying and with the process of death. She stated very openly to my whole family that even when the person seems unconscious and unresponsive, they are usually quite aware of their family members around them.

This fits perfectly with the scientific end. Brain activity doesn't cease simply because the person is unconscious and unresponsive. Rhythmic compression waves are still reaching the eardrums and stimulating the tiny hairs in the cochlea. Tiny nerve receptors in the skin are still fully functional. All of the component parts of awareness are still in place even when the processes of the body are reduced to a state insufficient to produce consciousness.

While it's very comforting to be told that scientifically, your loved-one could not know of your presence despite seeing that they are aware, the truth is that scientifically, there is no reason for them not to know. I would suggest that the nurse you mentioned was either; just as you said, an extremely nice person, and out of compassion told you what you might find most comforting, or she was a very poor nurse from a technical aspect and made a blatant mis-statement.

Well, in ways... I concede :) I guess I could have a foot in both view points.

Clandestine,

Re: "Well, in ways... I concede :) I guess I could have a foot in both view points."

Which to some measure might place you ahead of me in some respects since I have both feet planted in only one view.

However, I am not, as some have said, "closed-minded". I only ask for some credible evidence. Given that, I would assert that more research is mandated (continued research is never a negative), and that cause would then exist to produce doubt in currently held conclusions. But each time I ask for evidence, I get either anecdotal contributions or silence. It appears that if such evidence exists, those who hold it are remaining silent.

Hey Beast..Remember,sometimes there just isnt any or one simply doesnt have it.And if not,well thats ok too.I dont think anyone is seeking to change minds ,or totally proove what this is..we're all just trying to add a little to the thinking arsenal...or thats how it ahould be anyway.
Now,there have been plenty of plausible things presented that could site the origin of these feathers.But in the end,one is going to choose what suits them..Sometimes we take what we get,and if we are very lucky,we get what we need.And if comfort is what one needs? Then,more power to it.

Oceanne,

On many counts I'm inclined to agree. However, when people begin to rely too much on irrational, unevidenced beliefs for comfort, it often leads to damage and harm to themselves or others.

I'm sure we can all think of wars, periods and uprisings in history spawned by belief in the irrational and unevidenced so I need not mention that further. But it doesn't stop there. As soon as one begins to believe that their loved-ones are still with them and delivering clues to them, what does that do to their psychological ability to seek closure? How many of these people then invest their life savings into con-artists and sham schemes in the hope of gaining even more contact with long-dead relatives?

Comfort can be a wonderful thing but when we start to seek comfort above reason and reality, we can do ourselves substantial harm. How many people have been killed or have committed murder in the name of non-entities that they believe exist? I can provide you with a short list but I think most of us recognize that a comprehensive list would be beyond posting.

In accepting reality we do lose some comfort and feeling of security. But coming to grips with reality, even when it isn't comforting, is far healthier than persisting in delusions.

Yes,thats true,but its just not our judgment call.And as much as one might want to change all that,somtimes it simply isnt possible.So in light of that,all anyone can do is offer what they have ,especially in this situation, and walk away knowing you did the best you could ,providing all possible information you were capable of.
Sometimes it falls into place,somtimes it doesnt.
Kinda like.... a feather

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