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Demonic Possession
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XSilverxMoonxNightX
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17:17:46 Nov 06 2008
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I've always wondered is it possible has it really happened? or was it an act, are they just crazy, or do they have a serious medical condition over the years there have been accounts of Demonic possession it isn't common but it has been recorded

do you think that these recorded events really happened? do you think that demons exist and that they are able to come in to a person and take over their entire body?

what would be the reason for doing this?

is it to prove that there is an underworld? or is it proof that all the things we have heard about hell and the devil are true?

or are people simply making this up? is it just an "attention getter"?

what do you think?




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Cloudx9
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17:20:33 Nov 06 2008
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I think that some of the cases that are said to be demon possessions could probably be explained by some medical explanation but most I think are for real, just look at the movie based on Emily Rose. I think that truly did happened.



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XSilverxMoonxNightX
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17:43:19 Nov 06 2008
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I did watch that movie I was quite intrigued by the "facts" or accusations rather that were shared during the court case it was quite a site to see emily's state. people will always try to find an explanation other then "the devil made me do it" to explain the events opinions will consume the cases and "facts" will be irrelevant no one can say for sure what truly happened.



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Calea
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18:01:04 Nov 06 2008
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Many mental illnesses could be misinterpreted as demonic possession, although in my opinion it is quite possible to be possessed.

It would be interesting to see any scientific evidence that points the cause of possession. However it isn't something that we are really capable of studying at the moment.



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SYNDERELLA
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18:58:04 Nov 06 2008
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i do believe the movie "The Exorcist" was based on a true story only it happened to a little boy- he is grown now and lives in england- how true it is, i don't know. but i am sure it could happen



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dabbler
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01:23:29 Nov 07 2008
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Having seen some impulsively destructive people at the high point in their manic depressive cycle, I am tempted to go with such applications of the term demon. Then when I see a person in the same situation, but with an added complex, and personal Touch issues.. I am even more tempted, the I recall how a girl (in a rehab) went from calm (somewhat distracted) to Vicious Vixen with Typhoon Terror Mode Jacked, I can see how people would rather simply call that demon possession.. yet I would suggest that a stint in a decompression environment would suit them better.



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akashadarksoul
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19:54:54 Nov 07 2008
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I think it's entirely possible and I was also going to go with emily rose as an example, it was based on a true story. In many parts of the world possesion is more common i think. The excorsist was based on a true story too. And amyityville was loosely based as well. Can't member which one it was, the one where the boy murder's his entire family.



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dabbler
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23:16:39 Nov 07 2008
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Would they make a story about a boy that was emotionally embalenced and killed his family? if the story hints at something (usually through local rumor) horror ready, then it may get noticed, yet a movie about a girl who was improperly treated for seizures, not by a doctor, but be a priest.. ?



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Beastt17
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23:41:30 Nov 07 2008
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Chemical imbalances in the brain, power of suggestion (being discussed in a parallel thread), misunderstood disease, seizures, the mentally unstable and dramatically embellished tales are all confirmed, explanatory phenomena.

The existence of anything other than the physical is, and never has been, anything but a suggestion. And yet I see people who claim to be certain it could happen. Why demons? Why not fairies? Why not invisible, parasitical aliens? Why not attribute anything we can't explain to the evil collective consciousness of all of the unicorns deprived life by man's lack of belief?

If I invent a large fish that looks just like a stretch of mud when still, yet seeks to grab anything it sees on the surface and pull it under until it stops struggling, then releases it, do we now have a rational explanation for people who were strong swimmers yet were found after they drowned?

Or does it take more than that. Does it take evidence or just imagination to produce rational explanations?



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dabbler
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01:53:39 Nov 08 2008
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metaphor abuse?



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02:28:27 Nov 08 2008
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Demonic Possession is very real and is some thing not to be messed with or made fun of



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dabbler
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03:26:45 Nov 08 2008
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Do we tell that to the sociopath, the one that seeks to demonize his murders
I find that people who subscibe to possessions, tend to claim mastery or esoteric knowledge about demons. Then to be fair there are people that accept such things as metphoric icons. So what do we do with all the peeps
That are not possessed?

if a person someone loves suddenly turns on them..why relize that they need mental evalation.. Just call in the exorsist.



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EternalyYours5906
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03:29:59 Nov 08 2008
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I do believe that it is physically possible for demonic possesion to occur. Sure a lot of the recorded things out there could well be fake but I do believe that there could be demons from the underworld trying to gain their way back in to the mortal life.



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Beastt17
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07:10:27 Nov 08 2008
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Re: "Demonic Possession is very real and is some thing not to be messed with or made fun of"

You present this quite matter-of-factly. And yet I see nothing presented in support of the assertion. If you're only attempting to convey that you believe in them, then I get your message. If you're attempting to tell me that they really happen, then it's going to take a bit more to persuade me.

Why do you suppose it is that atheists never seem to be the victims of proclaimed possession? Is it because they don't believe in demons?

In most cases it seems that belief in demons and belief in spirits and gods go together. One might think that if gods and demons actually exist and one believed in a god, they might be more inclined to receive protection against demonic possession. But that's not how it seems to work. The more people believe in gods and demons, the more open they seem to be to incidents sometimes proclaimed to be demonic possession.

Why do you suppose that would be?


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MorbidAngels15
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13:36:43 Nov 08 2008
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i believe in demonic possestion, i've watched many programs about real life events, i think its terrible because it happens to innocent people, who are open and vunarable.



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Sinora
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16:05:08 Nov 08 2008
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Some kinds of mediumship can be said to be forms of possession.....a bond or contract based on love and trust.

Demons ? Never having met one I honestly don't know.

However I find it hard to understand/believe that a demonic possession could ever happen to a 'normal' person.

What I mean is...x goes about his everyday life, goes to church for weddings, christenings and funerals.

Suddenly x is possessed by a demon.

The ones I have heard about involve people either directly involved in religious practices which 'encourage' iideas like....possession or people with a serious mental illness.

I remember xzav saying he has experience of such things, I myself have none, nor does anyone I have ever met personally.



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markus666
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20:39:22 Nov 08 2008
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The line between reality and fantacy doesn't exist no more for those possesed by demons. Yes, demons exist and for many who are not prepare to confront them, the result can be a trip to the psycho ward.



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dabbler
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20:47:51 Nov 08 2008
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In metaphor a demon can be used to condense an imulsively destructive person. A demon is a very rich metaphor, in many stories, people can actually lose the ability to discern fable from actuality. A collision of Metaphysical and physical, that happens in their mind, and is supported by anything that appears to support (visual or audio) their the "possessed", or the "exorcist". With the" casting of the demon" the excuse is spent though, using the slap label possession only works as strong as the group it is used on.

"CUNT.. Splattered with PUS..! " How many people would say that?



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Beastt17
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21:47:43 Nov 08 2008
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Re: "The line between reality and fantacy doesn't exist no more for those possesed by demons."

Is that so?

It's one thing to make a statement and support it. It's quite another to simply make a statement and then walk away as though it actually meant something. Blind assertions are, to be honest, completely lacking in any kind of merit or value. Saying that the line between fantasy and reality no longer exists for those who are possessed really says nothing more than a contrary statement of saying that those who think possession is real are just living in a fantasy.

Both are statements. Both suggest something as a reality. But until some support is offered, neither present anything of value.

To add value to the second example, one could point out that possession suggests an unseen, non-physical consciousness. Has any such entity every been confirmed to exist? Obviously not.

One can certainly continue to believe in things which have never been confirmed to be real, but to insist that such things are real based on nothing but an individual's unsupported and irrational belief (and I use the word "irrational" because the belief is not the result of reason), is fruitless and pointless.

How many base their own belief in anything on the level of belief presented by others? Sadly, there are some. Hopefully, most of us base our belief on evidence. And when it comes to evidence for demonic possession, what do you have? Anecdotal claims. Nothing more.

So if anyone has anything other than anecdotal claims or blind assertions, I'd love to see/hear it.


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dabbler
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22:15:01 Nov 08 2008
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we also get the question of motive,a person that has something to gain from possession (whether they believe in such a cocept or not).



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bandnrd
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19:47:15 Nov 09 2008
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I think it's very possible that it happens today, possibly all the time. People are afraid of what they do not know, and therefore will try desperately to make up an explanation, basing things on a mental dysfunction or on something else.



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Rastaferal
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20:02:28 Nov 09 2008
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I question the motivation of the producers/directors of any supposed "account" or documentation. They are so obviously (overly) dramatized, and edited to be without any opposing explanations, that I do not see how so many of you rely upon them. They are selling you a product. If I tell you that product is mental illness its not going to sell very well. If I tell you that product is a horribly terrifying killer demonic possession that will be released in the month before Halloween. BOO! I bet you I can make some money off that.



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dabbler
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23:52:52 Nov 09 2008
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I'll do the camera work.. if you'll cater.



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XSilverxMoonxNightX
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01:16:00 Nov 10 2008
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Re: to Beastt17
that is a very good question and yes I would like some evidence myself It would truely be something to whitness it would it not?

it seems to go back to that whole "bad things happen to good people"

gods testing me!

I must keep my faith through my termoil

if you were put in job's shoes and covered in boils from head to toe would you keep your beliefe in the lord that he will bring you through??

Emily rose in the movie it siad she was a good person she believed in and loved god she was talking to Mary and mary asked her do you want to go with me or stay here and live through this to the end Emily chose to stay so that she could show everyone the devi exisited

so that everyone would believe that god was alive

"How can people say thatGod is dead if I show them the devil?"

That is what got me

I'm not sure if it is that when people are in good faith and call them selves chritainsa and walk ritously with no worrries that they are voulnerable to the devils trix b/c they know god will protect them? this is hard to answer

and hard to grasp any one else have any thing to say on this?



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dabbler
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03:45:48 Nov 10 2008
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Even if possessions did occur, it would still be very likely that 99.99 percent would be pious fraud (a good thing to wiki), or mental illness.

What is the opposite of demon possession? With that in mind people set about supporting that with a counter element. So when a person slips by their religions standards. It is convenient to claim possession. The church wanting to be the white knight .. goes right along.



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Euresken
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06:33:07 Nov 10 2008
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I have seen a close freind of mine go from sitting there laughing and joking with us to screaming and squirming on the floor, and her exact words were "get it out of me, get it out of me, please" But this too passed and I could attribute it to a possession but why would it have been so brief?



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Beastt17
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09:42:56 Nov 10 2008
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Re: "...her exact words were 'get it out of me, get it out of me, please'..."

I would suggest that this simply shows her belief in possession, not the reality of possession. And as you stated; why would a possession be so brief?

What would even be the point of possession? If an entity can take control of a physical, biological organism, then what need would it have for a physical body? People tend to think of demons as being highly powerful supernatural demons. But the actions supposedly attributed to them are not at all indicative of power or intelligence.

If a demon is more powerful than a human, why occupy the body of a human? It all makes very little sense. And that's fairly characteristic of beliefs which remain, even after thousands of years, completely devoid of corroborating objective evidence.


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dabbler
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12:13:12 Nov 10 2008
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Even thosewho believe in possession agree that the person possessed should show no knowledge of the possession. I would ask a few probing questions if you are well informed of the sequence of events. You do state you where present correct?



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JadedXGurl
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16:55:50 Nov 12 2008
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i think that it is possible for the devil to take over your soul



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Cloudx9
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17:01:43 Nov 12 2008
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I think that some are just some kinda medical problem or something that can be explained scientificially.



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RavenEyes
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23:11:07 Nov 12 2008
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I believe a person can actually be possessed, but only if their will is weak. I think some of the cases can be scientifically explained.



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bloodlace
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23:16:14 Nov 12 2008
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a strong yes on demons existing...and yea i think there have been possessions



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dabbler
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00:43:43 Nov 13 2008
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post one case study please.



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bloodlace
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02:38:53 Nov 13 2008
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I guess maybe believing in demons would mean you might have to believe in god as well...Im not pagan i believe theres a god and that satan and his demons are walking around here on the earth...no one can really deny that fact with all the wickedness and evil in it..i wouldnt think.. and i think if you use such things like hmm cant spell it weegie boards you invite evil spirits in like demons...call me crazy lol



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La6Muerte66
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03:17:27 Nov 13 2008
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Umm, actually a LOT people seem to be denying the existence of actual paranormal phenomena all-around.



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AngelfromAshes
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03:35:38 Nov 13 2008
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Being as this is a vampire site and I know many of us out there are actually practicing vampirismn be it by energy or blood, how can you discount the exhistence of other supposedly dark entities?

That being said, I've dealt with possession and demonic suggestion as well as mental illness that can be mistaken for the aformetnioned. I'm a diagnosed manic depressive...trust me I know the difference between possession and a mental problem.

Possession is not to be taken lightly, even though we make jokes about it...It's a very real problem...that being said if you think you or someone you know is possessed before you try and exorcise i strongly suggest seekign mental council and looking for a mental illness first before claiming possession.

Having been exorcised on multiple occasions by those who don't understand the concept of mental illness, please, please know somethign about what you're doing or get a professional



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Euresken
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10:52:11 Nov 13 2008
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to dabbler
yes I was present although I was not in the room when it started I did get into the room when she spoke. If that helps, I would just like to understand what might have happened if it wasn't a possesion.



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xvitaeXofXlifex
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15:47:39 Nov 13 2008
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demonic possesion is real ive seen it ive felt it im not going to talk about my experiance here



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xvitaeXofXlifex
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15:47:40 Nov 13 2008
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demonic possesion is real ive seen it ive felt it im not going to talk about my experiance here



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Beastt17
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17:15:21 Nov 13 2008
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Re: "Being as this is a vampire site and I know many of us out there are actually practicing vampirismn be it by energy or blood, how can you discount the exhistence of other supposedly dark entities?"

It strikes me that were I to visit a site specifically for members of the "Flat Earth Society", that I could then ask the question; Since this is a Flat-Earth Site and many of us are convinced that the Earth is actually flat, how can anyone discount the existence of the Earth as a flat structure?

Does thinking something is real make it real?

Or am I simply not following your line of thought?
---

Re: "That being said, I've dealt with possession and demonic suggestion as well as mental illness that can be mistaken for the aformetnioned."

How do you distinguish one from the other? How do you know that your criteria are accurate? Isn't there more than one form of mental illness which might be misdiagnosed as demonic possession?
---

Re: "I'm a diagnosed manic depressive...trust me I know the difference between possession and a mental problem."

If I told you that I'm a devout atheist and suggested that you should simply trust me when I tell you that no gods or demons exist; would you be compelled to believe me?

Suppose you could put St. Paul (of Christianity) and Ellen White (the founder of the Seventh Day Adventists), in the same room and both said to you, "I've been diagnosed an epileptic and trust me, my religious visions are the truth", how would you choose either one over the other? Would you be compelled to trust either one simply because they asked you to?

I'm going to echo Dabbler's request here; Does anyone have a confirmed, documented case of demonic possession for us to examine and perhaps use as a standard against which to compare other claimed cases, or do we again get nothing but a bunch of unverified and often contradictory claims?


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Beastt17
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17:21:47 Nov 13 2008
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Re: "demonic possesion is real ive seen it ive felt it im not going to talk about my experiance here"

Mermaids are real. I've seen them, touched them and communicated with them. I'm not going to talk about my experience here.

See the problem?

If there has never been a verified case of demonic possession, then why should we accept anyone's non-authoritative, unevidenced claims as true?

Do you have a verified case for us to examine?

Things that are unevidenced and unverified tend not to be real. Leprechauns, fairies, mermaids, unicorns, gremlins, zombies, Zeus, Thor and Ra are all examples of such things. Explain why I should accept your claim and discount other claims when you've provided nothing more to substantiate your claim than others have offered to substantiate what are commonly concluded to be nothing but myths?

I get that you think demons and demonic possession are real. Why should I believe they're real?


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dabbler
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18:37:55 Nov 13 2008
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What could it be if it was not possession, that list is longer then you would think.

How about acting?

Role Playing?

Stress Induced out break?

Impulse control?

Third party suggestion?

A prank?

A chance to mock a person who presses super natural things on a group (constantly).

Youtube has a whole gallery of "Possessions" some are actually very well performed.













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Beastt17
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20:31:56 Nov 13 2008
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If someone at a party staggers, slurs their speech, giggles a lot and keeps tossing down drinks, most of us would conclude that the person is intoxicated from consuming ethanol-based beverages.

However, it's not uncommon for people to pull a prank in which, one person is selected to receive mixed drinks which contain no alcohol. They believe they're consuming alcohol and anyone at the party not in on the prank believes they're consuming alcohol. Nearly every time, they'll appear just as drunk as everyone else. That's because they've either been drunk before and/or they recognize the classic signs of being intoxicated and because they think they should be drunk, they act as though they are.

People don't really know the signs of demonic possession because as far as we can determine here, there has never been a confirmed case of demonic possession -- not once, ever. But people do know the stories where various suggestions are made concerning what behaviors would be expected. So when people encounter such behaviors, they often conclude that they've witnessed an actual case of demonic possession.

If a popular myth suggests that being possessed by catertripes is characterized by bleeding from the pores and someone sees someone who is bleeding from the pores, they're likely to run around telling people they've witnessed someone who was possessed by catertripes. The problem, of course, is that catertripes don't exist. I just made them up. But bleeding from the pores does exist and is characteristic of Ebola. So what is most likely Ebola, gets characterized as a possession by an imaginary being and a great number of people who are completely open-minded to the idea and not prone to critical thought practices run around spreading the word that catertripes are real, possess people, and cause them to bleed from the pores.

So how is this any different than the claims we hear of demonic possession?



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dabbler
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20:40:06 Nov 13 2008
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blentuinrm cijrcmnrflkjsnmc cerf jerfc lakmm wljkc kjdksl



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LadyMajik
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I believe that demons among other things really exist. You can believe me or not. It doesnt really matter to me if you do or not. We had a case in our family of denomic possession. It was the result of this said family member dabbling in majik half heartedly. She more or less invited the demon in. And yes my family went through the exorcisim bit. No that didnt work. They had family members all gather around and pray for this said person and no that didnt work either. While under possession she seemed no different than any other person would seem suffering from D.I.D. or M.P.D. The reason it was said she was possessed is because while she was in this state she talked of things spiritual and paranormal that she wouldnt have known otherwise. Most of it was ancient and the language a dead language. This said person is alive and well today and is living a basically normal life. I dont think that all cases of denomic possession are based on fact. But I do believe that it exists and it happens. For what purpose? To be acknowledge in this case. I think the purpose really depends on what led to the possession in the first place.

LadyMajik



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dabbler
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21:33:26 Nov 13 2008
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I felt possessed to present the following.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KpvjeX2fac



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VampiraDracul
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21:59:09 Nov 13 2008
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My ex boyfriend is posessed by a devil and an incubus. One of my friends is posessed by...something. We're not sure what. One of my other friends' ex boyfriend was posessed. It happens, more frequently than some might imagine, though if you don't believe or if the supernatural isn't attracted to you, then you may never come accross an example or if you do may attribute it to something other than posession.



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Beastt17
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22:27:27 Nov 13 2008
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Re: "You can believe me or not."

I believe that you believe it.
---

Re: "We had a case in our family of denomic possession."

You had an instance of something you're calling demonic possession. It could also be called fairy-play and be attributed to fairies. You're just applying a label. But no one has ever confirmed that possession occurs, that demons exist, or that if demons exist and can possess people, what would be expected. That's because there has never been a confirmed case of demonic possession.
---

Re: "It was the result of this said family member dabbling in majik half heartedly."

Demonstrating a pre-existing belief which is often required for people to experience things that they describe as something which has never been confirmed to be real. Power of suggestion phenomena don't work if you don't accept the suggestion. Ever hear of an atheist being possessed?
---

Re: "While under possession she seemed no different than any other person would seem suffering from D.I.D. or M.P.D."

And yet these things are summarily dismissed without proper diagnosis.
---

Re: "The reason it was said she was possessed is because while she was in this state she talked of things spiritual and paranormal that she wouldnt have known otherwise."

Let's not forget the difference between believing something and knowing something. To "know" something means you can demonstrate it to be true. So she talked of things spiritual and yet there is no indication that anything spiritual actually exists. Many epileptics have visions of things they otherwise wouldn't see. Many suggest these are religious experiences. Medical examination shows them to be perfectly normal for those suffering damage or anomalous function in the temporal lobes.

Electromagnetic stimulation of the temporal lobes has been shown to bring about so-called "religious experiences" in about 80% of those who submit to the testing. Some of them are atheists and remain atheists.
---

Re: "Most of it was ancient and the language a dead language."

Who verified the language?
---

For a long, long time man didn't understand what caused disease so he turned to a ready-made explanation -- spirits. When someone became ill, it was called "infestation by evil spirits". Of course we know today that it was an infestation of microbes or virii.

I've yet to see anyone offer anything which separates the past claims of evil spirits as an explanation to disease, from claims of demonic possession for instances for which they lack another explanation.



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dabbler
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22:59:01 Nov 13 2008
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Every other case deemed possession is followed by the Nobal intervention of an agent of the persons faith, example, the rabbi, pastor, practicioner of mystic/arcane arts exercised the demon. A notch in their belt.



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idbeholda
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23:24:58 Nov 13 2008
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I believe that most of the time it's for show, and in some cases the person in question may have a mental disorder of one kind. Then there are some cases where it appears to be genuine, but statistically speaking the odds are very low. Most of the time, I think people do it for the attention.



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dabbler
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23:28:40 Nov 13 2008
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Then there are those who have an invested interest in accepting, and supporting that persons attention seeking extreme. The "Interventionalist".



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idbeholda
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23:37:20 Nov 13 2008
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@ dabbler: In that case, I fully accept Alvis as my lord and saviour. He killed for our sins.

:P



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dabbler
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00:37:17 Nov 14 2008
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and Bozo laughs at our sin.
I have been possessed by Howdy Doody.



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coldkisses
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00:58:28 Nov 14 2008
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if demons do choose to possess people
it will occur to an unsuspecting victim

for example, if a person claims to be possessed, chances are they are faking it. if this "demon" were possessing them, it would not want to be noticed as an evil being. but if someone randomly has a fit or something with no previous diagnosed medical or mental condition and claims to be normal.... it's more believable

it's like the boy who cried wolf, really!

but that's just my idea



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dabbler
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01:22:39 Nov 14 2008
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when people want others to believe their irrational fears, they usually want to be able to present that persons belief to co-sign their own. Example "So and So believes like I do."

When a person is in a desperate position they are likely to attempt to convince a person through performance. So that later they can present it as a non complient co-sign Example: " So and so was there when I was possessed." Looks at person they performed for," Remember ?"



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dabbler
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01:26:12 Nov 14 2008
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so to pit it plainly, with all the current claims of possessions, all that is needed is one compeling presentation on video. Or even an audio presentation. I bet I could find some real noble efforts at creating the appearence of possession.



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La6Muerte66
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03:12:09 Nov 14 2008
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@ dabbler: In that case, I fully accept Alvis as my lord and saviour. He killed for our sins.

Don't be silly. He was a drunk and a murderer. I was possessed by Krebs once...



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idbeholda
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03:19:12 Nov 14 2008
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@La6Muerte66: Blasphemer! Alvis was the holiest man ever to slap iron!



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CherryAdvocaat
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03:52:03 Nov 14 2008
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I've seen countless possessions and exorcisms, though I have yet to see one that I believe to be completely genuine. Demonic possession in theory is possible I suppose, but I would like to witness a real one, rather than overly dramatic people who are obviously bullshitting.



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szoyka
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08:25:10 Nov 14 2008
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i think it could happin but for the most part evil is in everone as for how much we will never know



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Beastt17
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09:15:35 Nov 14 2008
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Re: "Demonic possession in theory, is possible I suppose."

That's an interesting statement and one I've come back to two or three times now.

Is it theoretically possible? A theory is a complex concept which has undergone intense scrutiny from many fields of science and is found to be in compliance with all of the pertinent available evidence.

So does demonic possession comply with all of the available pertinent evidence? What evidence do we actually have? Sometimes people act very strangely; I guess that's a given. What else do we have?

Do we have anything to confirm that a demon could possess a person?

-No.

Do we evidence that demons actually exist?

-No.

Do we have any objective evidence that any part of the proposed supernatural exists?

-No.

Do we have claims of demonic possession?

-Yes.

So it seems we have roughly the same evidence on which people were convicted of being witches during the Salem Witch Trials.

We have the same evidence people had a few hundred years ago to connect disease and evil spirits.

We have the same evidence people offer in asserting that breaking a mirror can cause 7-years of bad luck.

We have the same evidence used to suggest that blowing on a pair of dice can make them roll a seven.

---

What we need is a good case which isn't easily explained via natural means. And we need that because natural means, being the only cause ever confirmed to be at the root of anything, is the most likely explanation. We've never confirmed the existence of a ghost. We've never confirmed the existence of a spirit. We've never confirmed the existence of a demon, an angel or a god. And yet, these things rank among the oldest of all of man's assertions.

Isn't it just possible that the reason we've never confirmed these things to be real is because they're not real? Isn't it even probable that the only reason people continue to cling to such ideas is because they're closed-minded and refuse to accept the most likely conclusion, simply because it doesn't tickle their fancy?

When it comes to Leprechauns, fairies, mermaids (except for Oceanne), unicorns, gremlins, zombies, elves, trolls, goblins and a great many other proposed beings, we take the pure lack of evidence and accompanying lack of confirmation as being fully and conclusively indicative that these beings are purely imaginary. So how does one take a dozen or so proposed entities, none of which offers any more objective evidence to support the idea that they exist, than do any of the others; and conclude that some are real while others are imaginary?

Why isn't this odd behavior of people attributed to trolls? Why isn't it attributed to elves? Why not suggest that it's fairies? For that matter, why couldn't it be the result of an alien mind-control device which transmits a signal with great accuracy over extreme distances?

The answer is conclusive and there is nothing to suggest that it isn't just as accurate as the conclusion that Leprechauns, fairies, goblins, trolls, mermaids, gremlins and all the rest don't really exist. Demons don't exist. And if people would start there and then search for answers to these odd behaviors that are so commonly claimed, they'd likely find rational, naturalistic answers.

Only when close, analytical and objective study fails to provide credible answers should anyone be the slightest bit willing to seek any answer within the paranormal/occult/supernatural. And in seeking such an answer, if none is found, then look elsewhere.


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idbeholda
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13:49:53 Nov 14 2008
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Very well said, Beastt17. Now for the real question: Since most (if not all) possessions are dictated by free will, do we really need some invisible force (good or evil) to blame or give credit to our actions that are largely predicated by hidden intent?



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Praetorean
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20:32:38 Nov 17 2008
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Possesion by a Demon is very real, it has occurred many times within my presence. I know several in which it has happened to. Including myself from time to time...



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dabbler
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20:58:15 Nov 17 2008
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Really please fill in some details, I look forward to a well written account of before, during, and after, the usual "what, where, when, how, perhaps why, and how. There has to be something you remember, how did people react?



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18:42:49 Nov 21 2008
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againDemonic Possession is very real and its nothing to be mess with Ive seen with my own eyes



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dabbler
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19:39:55 Nov 21 2008
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Please I would find an account of the activities imformitive, and very applicable to this thread.



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akashadarksoul
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23:43:11 Nov 21 2008
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I think the main reason people will not post their experiences here is because 1 they don't want to relive the memory and 2 the non believers will still not believe so what's the point of putting somthing personal out there to get ripped to shreds.



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BV
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23:46:53 Nov 21 2008
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I think the devil and his minions are about us at all times whether we choose to embrace them is a personal choice, of course the sneaky tricksters that they are, can force their will on you especially if are one sandwich short of a picknic!

hehe haha



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Beastt17
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23:49:25 Nov 21 2008
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Re: "again Demonic Possession is very real and its nothing to be mess with Ive seen with my own eyes"

Repeating an unevidenced assertion doesn't provide evidence for the assertion. It's still just as devoid of supporting evidence, and therefore, devoid of merit, as it is the first time it is proclaimed.

The concept of demonic possession is without evidence, without merit and therefore, has all the same properties as other myths. It's a myth, nothing more. And if anyone had any truly compelling evidence, they'd be presenting it. People rarely find they are driven to support any concept or claim and yet remain reluctant to present compelling or conclusive evidence when they have it. If people are willing only to make vague references to the idea that they have evidence, then it's pretty safe to note that they have no evidence.


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Beastt17
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23:58:45 Nov 21 2008
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Re: "I think the main reason people will not post their experiences here is because 1 they don't want to relive the memory and 2 the non believers will still not believe so what's the point of putting somthing personal out there to get ripped to shreds."

I would suggest that most already know that what they have to present is already shredded. They recognize it's lack of substance and can even shred it themselves. Were this not the case, they'd not fear that it was so subject to being shredded by others.

If we hold strong evidence, we need not fear that our evidence will be rationally defeated. Can you shred the idea that gravity is the result of warping space-time? Can you shred the idea that the Earth orbits the sun? Of course you can't because of the strength of the evidence itself. If one's proclaimed evidence is so flimsy that they already recognize how easily it's shredded then they should be learning from that and have no need to cling to flimsy, easily-defeated evidence.

If anyone had any strong evidence, we'd be seeing them post it. Apparently, even those who believe in demonic possession have no such evidence, and therefore, realize that they're clinging to an unevidenced belief. People usually do that kind of thing because it serves their emotions. And holding any belief in an attempt to serve one's emotions is an attempt to escape reality, rather than embrace it. If one can bring others to hold the same kind of belief, it provides them with security to know that others believe it as well, and makes it easier for them to retain the emotional security provided by such a belief.

And if they didn't want to re-live the memory, they'd probably not be hanging around this site, or reading this thread.


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akashadarksoul
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01:12:28 Nov 22 2008
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You make a good point but what about people who believe in god? there is no real proof but still he is believed in. sometimes you do not have to see something to believe in it. And as far as it is just a tale told to scare people well it has to come from somewhere doesn't it?



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dabbler
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01:17:35 Nov 22 2008
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Far greater belief actually, not demonstratable. However people claimed to see gods, the church itself quelled such claims.

Demon possession, and spirit communication is presented as people saying I witnessed such and such, there for claiming not just belief, but conviction based on a demonstration.



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Beastt17
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01:21:03 Nov 22 2008
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All unevidenced beliefs should be addressed under the same umbrella. One belief devoid of supporting objective evidence is no more substantial or likely to be true than any other belief devoid of supporting evidence. People often wish to look to the popularity of a belief in search for accuracy. But history clearly demonstrates that the popularity of a belief is in no way indicative of the belief's veracity. Only objective supporting evidence can indicated a strong likelihood for veracity in any belief. And any belief which remains devoid of such evidence even after tens of thousands of years of belief, has no more support than any other belief unsupported by objective evidence. Popularity and duration have no correspondence to veracity.



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dabbler
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01:53:24 Nov 22 2008
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The pick and choosers will berate any belief not their own. How odd that they sing the refrain "anything is possible", yet even when I was a believer
Any possibility becomes moot to the established excepted intepretation.



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DemianA
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05:59:50 Nov 22 2008
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II have personally observed people who call spirits into themselves, of course spirits don't exist, but they believe in them anyway. I have seen them chew glass and roll over a burning fire, they were unharmed, which is impossible and has no scientific explanation, but they believed they would not be harmed. I have seen them do things to themselves which would have killed them, but they did not die because they believed they were the ancestral spirits they allowed to enter and take over their body and mind. They believed these things because they were taught from puberty by their parents, who were taught by their parents and so on and so forth; that these spirits exist and provide for them. They believe in the Loa, the Petra and the Rada. Why, you say would anyone believe this was true? Don't they know there is no documented evidence or scientific explanation? Don't they know that all they believe is disregarded by those who have the all the answers, the enlightened ones of the cult of science. No, they celebrate their ignorance and superstitious beliefs in perfect bliss and knowledge that when they die they will join their ancestors.
There can be no proof that they do not. Voudun or Obeah comes from the land of their ancestors. That is a fact. They allow the spirits of their dead to take possession of them, that is a belief.
Possession by spirits can take on other forms when you believe in other deities. Can you disprove the existence of Jehova or Jesus or Allah, Lucifer or Satan? There is a wealth of literature that reports their existence. Can you dispute the validity of the belief that millions have in the existence of a higher power than humans, beyond even what science can prove or disprove?



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dabbler
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06:38:08 Nov 22 2008
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Chewing glass.. Got it! Walking on fire.. Been their done that. Calling spirits
Nope, really not the least bit impressed by the claim either.



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Beastt17
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08:37:49 Nov 22 2008
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Re: "have seen them chew glass and roll over a burning fire, they were unharmed, which is impossible and has no scientific explanation, but they believed they would not be harmed."

My dad had a guy teach him how to chew up lightbulbs. It's not all that mystical. You just break the glass carefully with your teeth and make sure the glass fragments are lying flat when you bite down on them. Mystery solved.

Walking on hot coals without getting burned is purely explainable via scientific means. Firstly, it's important to understand why almost all such events are held at night. It's because the bed of coals is burned down to mostly ash. During the day, it would look like little more than a bed of ashes. At night you can still see the glowing red light from deep within the separate chunks of burned wood. So there is a layer of ash between the feet and the coals and ash is a very good thermal insulator.

Secondly, the walkers pace is rather brisk to limit the duration of contact between their feet and the coals. Thermal transfer takes time, depending on the intensity and the amount (BTUs) of heat involved. It's important not to run because that presses the foot down into the coals and compresses the ash layer. Burns would result.

Then we must remember that skin is moist and the skin on the bottom of the feet is riddled with sweat glands. So there is a very thin layer of water which converts to steam, further insulating the foot from the heat necessary to cause a burn. Grab the burning wick of a candle with two fingers to put it out. You'll likely suffer a slight burn. Now re-light the candle and this time lick your fingers first. Pinch the burning wick only briefly, just enough time to extinguish the flame. You won't burn your fingers because the thermal energy is used to convert the moisture on your fingers to steam and the steam creates an insulating layer.

One must also remember that the coals themselves are burned all through the outside and only continue to burn (glowing red), on the inside. If you pick up one of these coals, you'll note that it's very light. Nearly all of the combustible elements have been burned away leaving only a foam-like shell of carbon. And carbon is a terrible conductor of thermal energy. So we have an insulating layer from sweat and moist skin, an insulating layer of ash, and an insulating microscopic lattice-work of carbon, not terribly dissimilar to the structure of foam rubber -- another good insulator.

Add all of that to the fact that overall, there is very little heat energy. We have heat intensities of around 600°F but the amount of heat (as measured in BTUs), is relatively low.

Since the people walk briskly, the duration of contact is quite limited. You'll not see a fire-walker stroll onto the coals and just stand there. If they did, their feet would be badly burned.

But people who believed they would be okay are okay and people who focus on getting burned, but maintain the right pace and step are perfectly fine -- no burns. And all for reasons explained perfectly via science.

It has nothing to do with believing one way or the other.


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Beastt17
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08:58:21 Nov 22 2008
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Re: "There can be no proof that they do not."

The idea that a lack of disproof is proof, is thoroughly bankrupt. Can you prove that I'm not from Mars? Of course you can't. Does that mean I'm from Mars? Of course it doesn't.

If you want to make a case then you need to provide conclusive, supporting, objective evidence for your case. The idea that if someone can't demonstrate that an assertion is incorrect, that the assertion is somehow then correct, is purely illogical and incorrect.
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Re: "They allow the spirits of their dead to take possession of them, that is a belief."

It's a belief completely devoid of supporting evidence. Since science explains why they're not harmed and does so through purely rational means which have nothing to do with supposed spirits, any reference to spirits is purely unevidenced and offers little hope of being correct.
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Re: "Can you disprove the existence of Jehova or Jesus or Allah, Lucifer or Satan?"

Can you disprove the existence of Marvin Martian as a real indigenous life-form on Mars? Does that mean that Bug Bunny's cartoon cohort is real?
---

Re: "There is a wealth of literature that reports their existence."

More important is that the literature is put together by people with a specific agenda, with the specific intent of promoting that agenda. When we look to outside neutral sources, we find little or nothing to support the claims of the biased literature. If we might take Jesus as an example; there are at least two-dozen known historians from that time and location and yet not a single word about him, his supposed miraculous birth or any of his proclaimed miraculous works. Can you imagine a horde of historians hearing of such events and such a person and yet not bothering even to take note?

Then there is the problem of too much documentation. We have the Dead Sea Scrolls which tell the Jesus story but were written around 100 BC, the New Testament account from around 0-33 BC and the Gnostic Writings from around 300 AD. Three separate accounts, three separate times, all claiming the same story in their time.
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Re: "Can you dispute the validity of the belief that millions have in the existence of a higher power than humans, beyond even what science can prove or disprove?"

This looks like the standard fallacy ad populum -- the belief that if more people believe in a concept, it increases the veracity of the concept. It's a fallacy because the idea is totally false. There was a time when nearly everyone believed the Earth was flat. It wasn't. There was a time when many feared that if you sailed out too far, you'd fall off the edge. You won't. There was a time when most people believed the sun orbited the Earth. The Earth orbits the sun and did so despite people's erroneous beliefs.

There is no objective evidence to support the idea that humans are a controlled experiment conducted by Venusian ground-dwelling worms. There is no objective evidence that gremlins actually exist. And there is no objective evidence to support the proposed existence of the subjects/entities you mentioned. Therefore, despite various degrees of popularity, all of these things retain the same degree of potential veracity.


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dabbler
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23:05:26 Nov 22 2008
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Ice is a good stealth replacement for glass as well.

A vary routine gag in medicine show circuits.

Along with nail beds, Strong man breaks block on chest( a trick) but not a trick for the clumsy, the Neck of steel, The stairs of swords, all rigged tricks,
No mystic application.



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ImageMaker
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05:28:01 Nov 23 2008
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Ok here's the thing, I've never seen anyone possessed by a demon (to my knowledge), though I've seen some recorded possessions. But to be honest I've always had my doubts.

However, I think the only thing worse than believing everything you're told no matter what the evidence is disbelieving everything you're told because you "know" you're right.

It's one thing to state disbelief or even pose intelligent probing questions, but systematically shredding and dismissing the words and experiences of others seems cruel and evidences more ego than intelligence.

Cold Demons exist? Anything is possible.

Do they exist? I just don't know but the evil present in the world would indicate it's a fertile feeding ground for such things.

However what I do believe is that we reap what we sow and if you don't believe that, then be my guest put the theory to the test.



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Beastt17
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06:28:12 Nov 23 2008
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Re: "Cold Demons exist? Anything is possible."

No, not just anything is possible. That's a very common phrase around here and it seems people repeat it almost robotically. But it's simply not true. Is it possible that Abraham Lincoln isn't really dead? Is it possible to turn coffee into turtles? Is it possible that atoms are larger than cars?

Almost anything can be imagined. But only a relatively few things are actually possible. That's because of things known as laws, which describe interactions in the real world. And only when there is sufficient objective evidence that a law may be poorly defined or potentially erroneous, is there any cause to review the law and seek appropriate adjustments.
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Re: "Do they exist? I just don't know but the evil present in the world would indicate it's a fertile feeding ground for such things."

There is no such thing as "evil". It's just a label people apply to define their perspective. Some people may watch a slaughterhouse in operation and think it's a markedly good thing; bringing food to hungry people. Others will watch the brutal, mindless, compassionless slaughter of thousands and thousands of sentient creatures and see evil. It's simply perspective, not an absolute.
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Re: "However what I do believe is that we reap what we sow and if you don't believe that, then be my guest put the theory to the test."

This idea has been put to the test throughout man's history and has failed throughout man's history. Did Jeffery Dahmer undergo prolonged torture and have part of his body eaten by the person who tortured him? Did William Clinton suffer punishment for lying to a federal grand jury? Did G.W. suffer for lying to the country, casting us into an unjustified and illegal war and causing the death of around 100,000 people? Did Jim Jones suffer enough to equal the suffering of all of the families who lost members to his "People's Temple" cult?

There is no balancing of the scales. I know people like to think otherwise because it makes them feel better about injustices but injustices are a fact of life and there is plenty of evidence to show that they don't balance out.

Sometimes they do, most of the time they don't. I was put through 9-years of injustice by a supervisor at work. It lead to the loss of someone I loved because she couldn't handle the constant uncertainty. She ended up turning against me and running to someone I though of as a friend. It lead to his divorce from his wife -- a friend of my ex-girlfriend. Did they get what they gave me? Of course not. The supervisor continued to be my supervisor for years after she wrote a false document requesting my termination. The termination wasn't granted, but had I not asked that her allegations be investigated, her next attempt might have been successful. She continued as my supervisor until she was finally fired. And when that happened, her political buddies stepped up for her and suddenly, she was just reassigned. And I wasn't her only victim. She finally left of her own accord to take a job paying at least double the money.

Did my life straighten out? Hell no! I eventually found someone else I cared for greatly and put up with years of awkward circumstances while she attempted to make more room for me in her life. And when she finally found the room... well, she just wasn't herself after the changes in her life and didn't really want anything to do with me anymore -- after nine years. So she will find happiness, my ex-girlfriend will find happiness, her (now) ex-husband has already found happiness, his ex-wife has found happiness and and I'll likely never find a way to ever trust anyone again. It's been sixteen years. So please don't try to tell me that people reap what they sew. It's simply not true.

And who here said they "know" demons don't exist? I don't recall seeing such a claim. If anyone even claims they "know" Leprechauns don't exist they're over-stepping. But what are the odds that Leprechauns exist? That's something people don't like to consider. And the reason is that the idea of Leprechauns came from the same place as the idea for demons -- imagination -- ancient, primitive, relatively ignorant imaginations. It was a way for man to try to answer questions long before he had enough evidence to provide rational answers. So he made them up, just the way he made up volcano gods to explain vulcanism, earthquake gods to explain tectonics and gods like Thor and Zeus to explain thunder and lightening.

So the odds that demons actually exist are the same as for the existence of Leprechauns. This goes for all imagined entities which are made up to entertain or to try to explain things man doesn't understand.

That's simply not how discovery happens. Discovery depends upon evidence and the strict adherence to following that evidence. It also relies upon reason and rationality. Has there ever been even one confirmed instance of any supernatural being? No.

Has there ever been a single confirmed instance that anything consistent with the supernatural even exists? No.

So what are the odds that demons actually exist? They're no better than for any creature I might make up on the spur of the moment, to explain anything for which I lack an explanation. It's the same as when a child attempts to explain television by supposing that there are little people living inside the TV.

So it can be said with reasonable confidence that since demons don't exist, they can't possess people. And it's not at all inappropriate for people to recognize that reality.


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Sinora
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10:25:16 Nov 23 2008
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ImageMaker makes a very good point.

Reasonable confidence is not a certainty.

I don't know about demons but as there have been people on this side of life who practised evil then they certainly exist on the other side of life.

As for karma, that is a huge subject and something which cannot be understood or measured from the perspective of the here and now.

Personally I think that Justice is always done, though this may well take place over many lifetimes.



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Beastt17
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11:08:23 Nov 23 2008
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Re: "Reasonable confidence is not a certainty."

I don't think it can be said that we can be absolutely certain about anything. Science operates off of reasonable confidence and yet has by far, the best track record of any system for finding consistencies with reality.
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Re: "I don't know about demons but as there have been people on this side of life who practised evil then they certainly exist on the other side of life."

There is no objective evidence consistent with any life aside from this life. People like to believe they continue on some sentient level but the objective evidence all suggests quite strongly to the contrary. Placing subjective feelings over objective evidence is an almost certain means to the formation of fallacy. I keep asking people for even a single instance where subjective feelings and objective evidence have been at odds, when objective evidence didn't turn out to be the truth once conclusive demonstration was achieved. So far, no one has even attempted to present a single instance. And yet, people somehow continue to believe that their subjective feeling is going to be different than all the billions and billions who came before.

Show me any war where both sides didn't see themselves as "good" and the other side as "evil". It's perspective.
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Re: "As for karma, that is a huge subject and something which cannot be understood or measured from the perspective of the here and now."

A statement which tells us that you don't understand it, and also suggests that you do understand it.

We can be reasonably certain that here and now is what we have. Anything else is going dramatically against the odds and expecting truths to arise from something which most likely doesn't exist.
---

Re: "Personally I think that Justice is always done, though this may well take place over many lifetimes."

In which case justice isn't always done. We have one lifetime -- one. All of the others are simply the result of imagination and the refusal to accept that we are the sum of our parts. It's the result of the psyche trying to understand itself as other than a series of inter-dependent electro-chemical reactions.

A flea may well believe that he's somehow more important than the whole of the universe but he's still just a flea. He may even think that if you kill him it will come back to get you and even the score. The evidence is as much against the flea's cry for justice as it is against people who make the same appeal to their subjective need for appeasement.

To suggest that we exist eternally is to suggest that each of us is more important than the whole of the universe. I don't think of myself as being more important than the whole of the universe.


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Sinora
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13:51:35 Nov 23 2008
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You are free to think of yourself in any way you wish, as am I.

We are both, as is everybody on this site free to share their thoughts of any subject presented on the forum.

I have done just that, and have no reason at this point to change my mind about anything I have written, I dare say you feel the same.



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Beastt17
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17:15:31 Nov 23 2008
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You have all the reason anyone should ever need. You are a collection of chemicals, little different than a plant except that your form of life has a mind from which it draws a will to survive. But rather than accept what can be shown to be accurate there is instead, an appeal to the struggle of the psyche in accepting its own mortality.

Life developed and diversified and humans were but one result among millions. And yet some will refuse to accept what lies before them and instead appeal to their will to survive so strongly that they refuse to admit that they will die and cease to exist as any kind of consciousness. Continued life is an idea as primitive as those from which it came. It's as erroneous as many of the other ideas spawned via vast ignorance such as the idea that disease was caused by spirits.

These early peoples had no concept of microbes so they instead turned to an imaginary construct as an explanation and they were wrong. Their attempts to drive these spirits out of their ailing bodies almost always failed to provide restoration of health and yet they clung to their concept of disease in utter denial. They endowed mountains with angry and powerful forms of sentience and called them "gods" and to these imaginary constructs they sacrificed even their own children and they were wrong. They looked to every aspect of nature and imagined various forms of sentience, mystical power and anthropomorphized anger, desire and direction, and they were again wrong.

And while we are perfectly willing to accept microbes, vulcanology, meteorology, tectonics and biology, some will not allow themselves to accept the fully demonstrated truth; we die and we cease to exist beyond the basic elements from which our bodies are constructed. The reasons are all there and spread out before you with a level of understanding never before attained by any other species on the planet. One can accept that or they can fool themselves into accepting ancient constructs born of primitive minds struggling in vast ignorance.



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Sinora
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17:31:01 Nov 23 2008
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If I fool myself I am in good company and also at peace with myself and the understanding I have reached over the years.



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Beastt17
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17:49:38 Nov 23 2008
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Good company? Consider that most of the world believes in some form of spirituality and you will find that your "good company" includes some of the most monstrous characters listed by history; Adolf Hitler, Charles Manson, David Berkowitz, Ed Gein, Charles Cullen (killed 45-patients), Gary M Heidnik, John Wayne Gacy, Gary Leon Ridgway (the Green River Killer), John Edward Robinson Sr., Jim Jones, Reverend Marshall Applewhite (of the Heaven's Gate cult), Peter Sutcliffe (murdered 13-women), John List (killed his wife and children), Aileen Wuernos, Robert L Yates Jr. (killed 13-women), John Frazier (killed 5 or more), Albert Fish (killed at least 100 children), Coral Eugene Watts, Harvey Carignan, Arthur Gary Bishop, Jurgen Beutsch (killed 4-children), Ted Bundy and Dennis Rader?

Of course what harm does it do to murder people if they live on through a spirit and "life" just gets better and better? Perhaps they saw it as a gift.



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Sinora
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17:55:22 Nov 23 2008
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Anyone who knows me, knows I don't think that at all, and so should you.

When have I ever written carelessly about the suffering of others ? When have I ever written that it matters not what is done in this life as we have others ?

Never.




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Beastt17
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18:01:39 Nov 23 2008
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I said, "perhaps they saw it as a gift". And why not? If one is truly convinced that we live on but are no longer plagued by disease, age or natural disasters why would anyone want to continue on in a biological body?

Of course there is no credible evidence to support such a view and most of us fight to remain a living biological entity -- even those who claim to believe they will live on as a better form of life, perhaps in a paradisical form. Rather an odd thing, don't you think?



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Sinora
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18:07:42 Nov 23 2008
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I know what you wrote...I read it. I just wanted to be sure that the distinction was made.

No, I don't think it's odd at all, it's instinct and serves a good purpose.



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Beastt17
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18:27:23 Nov 23 2008
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What purpose is that, to keep us locked into failing and flawed bodies where we suffer through our lives, often die prematurely and get to spread havoc among all the other species?

If our destiny is to be spirits, then what's the point of having a biological stage? Why not just start out as spirits and remain spirits? If we exist for eternity, a few feeble years is likely to have little overall impact.

And it would appear that many think some of us or some of some kind of entity instead become demons. What's your explanation for that? If you're evil as a biological entity you'll become a demon? And why would demons seek to prey on biological entities rather than spirits?

The whole construct is obviously designed only to feed the psyche what it wants and not to serve us with any grasp of reality.



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Sinora
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18:34:10 Nov 23 2008
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When did I ever say our destiny is to become spirits ?

My understanding is that we were in the begining and still are of spirit.

As to purpose, that is for each individual to find.

If you read my original post regarding the question first asked about demons, you will find that I wrote I did not know about them.

Humans are hard enough to understand....when I figure them out maybe I'll move on to demons.



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sexychica
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19:24:01 Nov 23 2008
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i think its possible but its rare



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Beastt17
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20:35:21 Nov 23 2008
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Re: "My understanding is that we were in the begining and still are of spirit."

So an entity which has never, in all of the tens of thousands of years it has been asserted, you believe you understand but...

Re: "Humans are hard enough to understand....when I figure them out maybe I'll move on to demons."

When it comes to humans -- an entity that exists with no reasonable question which you are and are around all the time -- you haven't yet figured out?


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Beastt17
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20:37:28 Nov 23 2008
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Sorry, "..never been confirmed, in all of the tens of thousands of years it has been asserted to exist..."



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ImageMaker
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20:53:44 Nov 23 2008
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Beast why are you so threatened by other peoples beliefs and views? It seems to me you're awful defensive and aggresive in your quest to prove everyone wrong.



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dabbler
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21:19:52 Nov 23 2008
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I find people do the same with others that believe as they do as well, it is not limited to non-believers.

How many different interpretations are there to what, a spirit is, how it "crosses the veil".

How many sects are there?



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ImageMaker
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21:38:53 Nov 23 2008
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We could be here all day trying to count how many sects there are.

On the subject of possession there's a show on the Sci-Fi Channel called "The Real Exorcist"

I've watched it a few times and as someone else stated previously, I think the people really believe they're possessed and being exorcised, but I didn't see anybody on there that I thought was honestly possessed. I still got the "snake doctor" vibe from it all, and sort of felt like these people and their insecurities were being exploited.

I also had a long talk with some friends today on the subject and came to some conclusions.

I do believe there are demons, I haven't seen them but I think that there is such a thing as evil and that persons, spirits, or beings that are immersed in evil qualify as demons in my mind. I came to this conclusion because I also believe in angels, whom I have also never seen, but I believe in goodness and I think that persons, spirits, or beings that are immersed in good qualify as angels.

I don't need physical evidence and I don't need someone else to validate these thoughts for me. I take them on faith as is every persons inherent right to do.



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dabbler
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21:56:00 Nov 23 2008
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I find that to be a healthy moderation. Like I say with aliens, going with there could be aliens out there, in distant galexies is reasonable to me.

Yet fringe-ist press the sensational concept that they must, "and surely do" interact with us, this opening a window for others to advance themselves as
Centric to some experienced phenomena.

Mean while those that have a stable accepted moderate concept, are made to feel simple, and plan.

It is implied in some groups (cults) that you need to claim to have been witness to some far out thing.. Why? Because once you share testimony they have leverage.



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La6Muerte66
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22:34:25 Nov 23 2008
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Beast why are you so threatened by other peoples beliefs and views? It seems to me you're awful defensive and aggresive in your quest to prove everyone wrong.

Even though I'm sure he'll respond to this anyway, I have my own issue with this statement.

He's been proving your [spiritual] beliefs wrong because they are unfounded, and they don't follow the established and proven scientific principles on which reality functions. Most, if not all, of these beliefs are based in faith, and I agree with him that faith is illogical and often dangerous. It's not being threatened, it's being realistic. If your beliefs are so valid, then back them up with facts, rather than attacking the person who opposes them. The purpose of debate is to learn from each other, not state your beliefs and then get offended because they break so easily under scrutiny.


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Beastt17
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22:39:43 Nov 23 2008
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No one should ever take anything on faith and in most aspects of life, everyone seems to understand this. You don't just step into the street and begin to cross on faith, you check traffic first. You don't spend your money on faith (except church tithing and even then there are expenditure records), instead you want warranties, guarantees and expiration dates. You don't drive a car on faith. You watch the lights, pay attention to other drivers and match your speed to the driving conditions. You don't select a babysitter on faith. You try to get references or at least talk to others who have some knowledge of a person's ability and trustworthiness. You don't fire a gun on faith. You do almost nothing on faith in your whole life because it's so obvious that to do so would be catastrophic, fool-hearty and careless... until it comes time to select a belief in a proclaimed after-life.

Then it's suddenly all about what appeals to you. The choice is to choose to believe that you'll continue on to a paradisical existence with your loved-ones all around you or that you'll die and cease to exist as any kind of sentience. Given such a choice, most people will abandon reason, ignore evidence and side-step logic to pick the one they find most desirable. But desire is not a good measure of reality. So most end up submersed in a belief devoid of any demonstrable connection with reality and will even insist that their belief is true, despite having absolutely nothing with which to support it.

I was asked why I was so insistent and "aggressive" when stating my case and the reason should be clear to all. The fact that many don't understand that reason is, in itself, a demonstration of the reason. People are selecting a belief without reason, without logic and in contrary to the evidence and yet, seem not to have any clue why such a choice would alarm anyone. We have The Crusades, the Salem Witch Trials and the Inquisition to serve as warnings as to what happens when people engage in making emotional choices and hold them as true and real. We have the Holocaust, the war in Iraq and legislation against teaching evolution to warn us. We have dozens of murders on the books where the convicted killer plead his case that he was acting under the direction of God or a demon and still people ask such question. We have the tragedy of the "People's Temple", "Heaven's Gate" and the Branch Davidians and people still aren't getting the message.

Choosing beliefs in avoidance of logic, evasion of evidence and servitude to one's desires is a harmful, tragic practice. It has played out in dramatic and sickening fashion over and over throughout history. Now we see a country like the United States which was founded on the idea of individual rights prohibiting same-sex couples from marrying. That's a direct violation of their rights. Should they marry it harms no-one. And yet it is now prohibited in most states simply because people are placing their unevidenced, desire-based beliefs before the primary foundation of the country -- individual rights.

We have government imposed limits on stem-cell research for exactly the same reason. The treatment of the American Indians was done under the premise that they were savages, not actually humans like the Caucasians who invaded and took their land. Slavery in American was founded and perpetuated under the same kind of faith-based, unevidenced beliefs. People of African decent weren't considered to be fully human. It was thought that Caucasians had souls and African blacks were just human-shaped animals without souls. And the treatment of animals today continues under this same unevidenced and illogical premise.

Take a good hard look at the results of such beliefs and then look to your own references to people who believe they are possessed yet left you with no feeling that their beliefs were accurate. Would they be going through such self-imposed torment if they had been raised to pay attention to the rational and to dismiss the irrational?

It's harmful and damaging no matter how you slice it. And the one point that people should never over-look is that claims of spirits and demons go back to well beyond the founding of Christianity, beyond the first pagans, to the most primitive and ignorant phases of mankind. This is from where such ideas arose. Most of the failed beliefs from that time have been unquestionably extinguished as real knowledge has replaced superstition. But the idea of an afterlife, angels, good & evil, ghosts, spirits and demons lives on only because people find the concept of an afterlife extremely desirable. It's a belief that has had more time than just about any other belief to demonstrate itself and yet, it has never moved beyond the very first step -- to be imagined as possible. There is no more evidence to support it now than there ever has been. Man traveled to the moon in a few decades of determination. We've conquered the worst of the diseases which used to cut people down in their prime and limit the chances of a child to reach adulthood. We've discovered galaxies beyond our own and found out that space-time itself is neither empty nor without specific properties such as the ability to drive mass toward mass simply through its distortion. We've discovered neutrinos -- particles so small that every second billions pass clear through the Earth touching absolutely nothing, and they do so at the speed of light while changing their properties. And we confirmed these in just 26-years from suggestion to confirmation and another 20-years to actually counting them accurately.

Yet spirits, ghosts, demons, gods, angels and all of the rest; after tens of thousands of years, remain no closer to any kind of confirmation today than do mermaids, fairies, goblins, gremlins, unicorns, Leprechauns or zombies -- and very likely, for exactly the same reason.



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VR System
VR System

No Longer Registered
22:39:43 Nov 23 2008
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