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Alone in the Universe?
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Revenous
Revenous

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14:37:38 Mar 19 2009
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Ok so I want to know what are your perspective about how ancient civilization such as the Sumerians, Egyptians, Mayans, Aztecs, among others had various marvelous technological advancements in both astronomical and anatomical spectrum, about the human and celestial bodies, For example some of the Outer planets we’ve discovered few decades ago were already presented in a studied Sumerians tablet in every order, dating around 5,000 years ago, they had the notion about the sun being the center of our planetary system since then, when we were talking about the earth being the center of the universe few centuries ago. Through various cultures we have stumble with a series of this monuments, cave and stone paintings, unusual stories and artifacts about creatures that came from the heaven above and brought the man along. Do you think we might’ve brought here from somewhere else? Humans as a genetically engineered species in this planet? The stories of the Anunnaki’s? Mystery of the crystal skulls? Where do you think our ancient cultures inherited their vast knowledge in monumental construction and solar alignment?

You can bring links and videos to express your views, along with any theological or philosophical belief as for the explanations of these accounts.




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OomaiCrossWolf
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17:44:38 Mar 19 2009
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with all the studies down and the new things being found out about the human race as a whole. I would have to say that we are not alone in the universe and that there is some advanced race watching us too either keep us on track with understanding them or to throw us off as we get closer to understanding why we are here.



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Revenous
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00:59:50 Mar 20 2009
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For those who root interest in this, I found this interesting documentary video, is a little old but quite startling in their content.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BToUxSi-QwA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3M7PA0sJjZs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mm2-do9840&feature=related



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La6Muerte66
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01:20:50 Mar 20 2009
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Ugh, I stopped watching conspiracy videos (that's essentially what it is: a conspiracy) a long time ago. While it would be rather interesting to find out that there's some superior race watching us from afar, I find it rather doubtful. It's known beyond a shadow of a doubt that humans evolved from a common ancestor we share with the great apes, so the idea that we were brought here is already irrelevant.

Many people like to say that because ancient civilizations have accomplished great feats of technology that they MUST have had outside help. That idea is flawed already, as it is pure arrogant assumption to think that just because they didn't have the things we have today, that they were automatically primitive, unintelligent beings. These are the people that gave us the foundations of our modern education system. All the math, astronomy, philosophy, etc. that we take for granted nowadays was being pondered and formulated by these people.

Another point that is commonly brought up is the idea of visitors from space. What is ignored, however, is the fact that every civilization has stories of mysterious races, creatures, etc. These stories most likely came out of man's wonder at the marvelous world in which he lives. Giants, demons, sphynxes, gorgons, and the kraken are all creatures that we pretty much know don't exist. They were still the focus of stories, religions, monuments, etc. worldwide, but they were not based on any sort of reality. The assumption that stories about visitors from the stars must be true is quite the same as assuming any of the Greek, Norse, Roman, Babylonian, Caananite, Arabian, etc. myths were true. It is an assumption based purely on our desire to believe, rather than evidence.



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Revenous
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02:53:33 Mar 20 2009
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La6Muerte66:

RE:”While it would be rather interesting to find out that there's some superior race watching us from afar, I find it rather doubtful. It's known beyond a shadow of a doubt that humans evolved from a common ancestor we share with the great apes, so the idea that we were brought here is already irrelevant.”

I must say you hold quite good point, but you also lack of evidence yourself to hold your assumptions, we still have all the missing chains between each species evolution, simply no one have discovered a single animal that shows the transition between both roots, for example the idea that birds came from reptiles, we just have few evidential links between both class but we don’t have the missing link that holds that theory consistent, Yet you also don’t hold evidence that all this spectators where seeing weird things in the skies or mythical creature, so the idea that we brought here is not completely irrelevant, for the fact that you don’t even know how we came to be here as a species in the first place. What scientific facts and experiments? Archeological discoveries? Our science still young to just encase on it, so far the evolution theory could be as much conspiracy theory as this. New findings come along in the path that may destroy past conceptions of creation theory that scientist speculate.

RE: “Many people like to say that because ancient civilizations have accomplished great feats of technology that they MUST have had outside help. That idea is flawed already, as it is pure arrogant assumption to think that just because they didn't have the things we have today, that they were automatically primitive, unintelligent beings. These are the people that gave us the foundations of our modern education system. All the math, astronomy, philosophy, etc. that we take for granted nowadays was being pondered and formulated by these people.”

I disagree, you don’t have anything to prove this wrong either, said again, I think you have more clues that they had some exterior influence than just emergence of knowledge by looking at the sky, if you have a evidence or scientific explanation about how can you discover a planet that wasn’t still discovered aprox 1 decade ago( so called “planet X”) with the technological advancement we have today, how can you say they weren’t primitive in their methods of seeing this things, when there haven’t been found any method of how they know it? Unless you discovered and artifact to know it or any other documented evidence of how they did it, you CAN’T also know. You said it, they gave us the clues for us discover the knowledge for ourselves, but where do they get theirs? can you tell me, do you have the evidence? Or you are just presuming? Are you telling me they watch the skies and saw Pluto? Or they just drew the whole solar system in order because they just made a spaceship never documented and they did it? Reason, not everything can’t be solved by scientific facts when you don’t have the evidence to disapprove them.

RE:”Another point that is commonly brought up is the idea of visitors from space. What is ignored, however, is the fact that every civilization has stories of mysterious races, creatures, etc. These stories most likely came out of man's wonder at the marvelous world in which he lives. Giants, demons, sphynxes, gorgons, and the kraken are all creatures that we pretty much know don't exist. They were still the focus of stories, religions, monuments, etc. worldwide, but they were not based on any sort of reality. The assumption that stories about visitors from the stars must be true is quite the same as assuming any of the Greek, Norse, Roman, Babylonian, Caananite, Arabian, etc. myths were true. It is an assumption based purely on our desire to believe, rather than evidence.”

Again, no one can say that as a definite conclusion, where you in those times? Where you in the head of everyone to know if it’s true or not? Maybe it isn’t, but you can’t rely on science to denied them when you don’t have the documentation, maybe the mythologies are hoax and imagery, but not all of them can be taken as pure imagination, you are trying to auto convince yourself that what cannot be explained has to hold a scientific evidence for your theory acceptation, your ignoring the possibilities and that is what bashes the empiric theorist conclusions. You don’t have the evidence to support it but you just discard the possibility because you already denied it, What if I tell you just to say, there is a place in the ocean in deepest darkest place where all this creatures exists and sometimes come out to the surface to “chill out”. Are you going to tell me is not true because you don’t have evidence is real, can you also show me that is not true? Can you go down there take pictures and prove me that their isn’t such place? I think some natural physical barriers will prevent you from showing me, until you have the tools and technology to prove it you can’t say is absolutely preposterous, if you also don’t have evidence is not real. You only have evidence until our scientific technologies can reach. For example few of the evolutionary theories were discarded when the new scientific breakthrough about the Genetics and microbiologic science emerged, few decades before that all you knew about it was all that for you was real, few years later something came new and all you knew was incredibly incoherent. Science can’t only show you, where science can reach.



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La6Muerte66
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03:38:53 Mar 20 2009
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"I must say you hold quite good point, but you also lack of evidence yourself to hold your assumptions, we still have all the missing chains between each species evolution, simply no one have discovered a single animal that shows the transition between both roots, for example the idea that birds came from reptiles, we just have few evidential links between both class but we don’t have the missing link that holds that theory consistent"

Actually, we do have the "missing links" between bird and reptile, for example. Archeopteryx is the perfect transitional fossil, and a more comprehensive list can be found here.

As for the evidence that we share a common ancestor with the great apes, specifically chimpanzees, we have a full and comprehensive fossil record depicting human evolution, genetic similarities between humans and chimpanzees, including 16 endogenous retroviruses that we share in common in the exact same locations in the genome, which could ONLY happen if we shared a common ancestor. We even know which chromosomes fused in humans which gave us one less pair of chromosomes than chimpanzees. More information can be found here.

You're forgetting that we don't just rely on the fossil record for evidence of evolution.


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La6Muerte66
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03:55:34 Mar 20 2009
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"I disagree, you don’t have anything to prove this wrong either, said again, I think you have more clues that they had some exterior influence than just emergence of knowledge by looking at the sky, if you have a evidence or scientific explanation about how can you discover a planet that wasn’t still discovered aprox 1 decade ago( so called “planet X”)"

Easy. They didn't discover it. The Sumerians listed 7 planets, including the moon. More info here. The only sources that claim the ancients knew of planets that aren't viewable with the naked eye are CONSPIRACY SITES. How familiar...


"Again, no one can say that as a definite conclusion, where you in those times? Where you in the head of everyone to know if it’s true or not? Maybe it isn’t, but you can’t rely on science to denied them when you don’t have the documentation, maybe the mythologies are hoax and imagery, but not all of them can be taken as pure imagination, you are trying to auto convince yourself that what cannot be explained has to hold a scientific evidence for your theory acceptation, your ignoring the possibilities and that is what bashes the empiric theorist conclusions."

I'm not stating it as a definite conclusion. However, in the absence of actual evidence, the default assumption is negative, meaning that since we have no real evidence to suggest anything that has been claimed so far, the default assumption is that they are false. Simple. It is not on me to disprove what is being claimed. It is up the the person making the claim to provide credible evidence for their assertions.


"What if I tell you just to say, there is a place in the ocean in deepest darkest place where all this creatures exists and sometimes come out to the surface to “chill out”. Are you going to tell me is not true because you don’t have evidence is real, can you also show me that is not true? Can you go down there take pictures and prove me that their isn’t such place? I think some natural physical barriers will prevent you from showing me, until you have the tools and technology to prove it you can’t say is absolutely preposterous, if you also don’t have evidence is not real."

And again, it is not up to me to disprove your unevidenced assertions. It is up to you to provide credible evidence. Otherwise, your claims are automatically false by default. I could say that I have an invisible purple dragon in my garage, but you can't disprove it. Does that mean my claim is just as credible?


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Revenous
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04:43:11 Mar 20 2009
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I will have to agree with your point; just for the fact that you bring the empirical documentation to defend and prove your assumptions, Then again it is not completely probable than even what you say cannot be real, by simple Archaeological findings, decoding the writings, technological experimentations or mircrobio/chemical experimentation cant accurately prove everything . You can bring me all this Biology, evolution, genetics and archaeological finding and discoveries, but they just get near to some pieces of the puzzles they can just tell you, “ok this is what it really happened that time”, this is how this happened exactly genetically and stuff like that cause its simply proof of its existence, not how or where it was created because at the end it all falls in a Theory or Dogma, nothing is definite because if it was we wouldn’t have all the religions and theories out there debating the same.

We have one too many presently Unidentified flying objects spectators and tested witnesses about this sightings as correlation with the ancient times sightings, I wouldn’t understand why someone or group of people suggest real what they saw, if they don’t take anything for it? Why would someone invent such things? What purpose do many people hold to claim their sighting? I believe if you can’t accurately prove something, you can’t either say it’s not real. We will simply never go on the same train because you believe in documentation and evidence to support everything, while others could believe in Theology, Theories and even faith to support their views. I suppose if i tell you I believe God made all breathing life, you are going to tell me: “show me scientifically evidence about it”. That’s when my boat sinks, since i can’t, unless I come out with a explanation about; how I had a vision of some sort and explain it, you will simply not accept it, because it is not something you experienced yourself. No one cant debate anything against you if they don’t support viable evidence, which i find quite acceptable, but is simply an opinion doesn’t make you or others right or wrong, as i said before science can be something today and tomorrow something else, nothing is fully reliable, just the personal point of view and beliefs is what make it acceptable.



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venumstings
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12:46:15 Mar 20 2009
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Well My Opinion that human civilization was on peak just 10000 years ago. most advance human civilization was around 15000-30000 years ago. then something erred in the civilizations coz there was only two group of civilization was prevailing those time one is Atlantis which believed in harnessing the best of the universe and the Rama civilkization believing the development the best in the universe, both were perfact and both were proogresing at same level. then the war took place due to ideology and then religion to took place. everything destroyed and thi destruction led unoversities to destroy own skill which can be used in warfare. this led to complete decay in all kind of sciences. Or you will find that this earth was able to dictate its terms over the gallaxies. the war plane the individual capacity to go through wormholes by creating them with own exercises was common those time now lost realm forever.

even today those Indian epics tell the magical nuclear weapons of material world which were controlled by human brain and or guided. even its variation of fussion was controlled by the user.



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La6Muerte66
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21:16:53 Mar 20 2009
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"You can bring me all this Biology, evolution, genetics and archaeological finding and discoveries, but they just get near to some pieces of the puzzles they can just tell you, “ok this is what it really happened that time”, this is how this happened exactly genetically and stuff like that cause its simply proof of its existence, not how or where it was created because at the end it all falls in a Theory or Dogma,"

It's necessary to note that nothing is science is known 100%. It's the very nature of science. However, evidence we gather is used to come to the most probable conclusion (even if that means 99.9% probability). Dogma generally requires the "knowledge" of something regardless of evidence, and is almost always wrong in its unchanging assumptions. Theory, on the other hand, is the result of evidence. If mountains upon mountains of evidence point to a single conclusion, and then one or two "discoveries" show up that don't agree with it, it isn't the best course of action to immediately disregard our past knowledge to fit them until more evidence has gathered. A few drawings and maybe an incongruous archaeological find may disagree with the rest of the historical documentation, but depending on the amount of evidence against it, there needs to be more supporting evidence to show that the current theory is flawed. (This is a general example, of course.)


"nothing is definite because if it was we wouldn’t have all the religions and theories out there debating the same."

Theories are one thing, and as I said before, science is never 100%. We don't know 100% that cells exist, or that atoms exist, even though we can observe them under magnification. Conflicting theories are usually the case where little evidence has been gathered, because there isn't enough to come to a single conclusion. I will disagree that nothing is definite for all intents and purposes, because some things, while not technically 100% (e.g. cells and atoms), can be confirmed to be essentially definite.

Religion, on the other hand, has little to do with definite facts. Religion in almost all cases relies on outdated dogma, "knowledge" in the place of empirical research (which has always been wrong in cases where it conflicted with science), and writings that were authored by people who obviously didn't have the tools or knowledge we have today, and couldn't possibly be expected to have very accurate information. The problem with religion (we're now straying from the topic entirely, so I'll keep it short) is that when scientific knowledge disagrees, it is met with resistance, sometimes (for instance, Galileo) to the point of persecution and death. Faith is entirely resistant to evidence, and is the reason religions continue to flourish while spouting complete lies about reality (Creationism, for example).


"We have one too many presently Unidentified flying objects spectators and tested witnesses about this sightings as correlation with the ancient times sightings, I wouldn’t understand why someone or group of people suggest real what they saw, if they don’t take anything for it? Why would someone invent such things? What purpose do many people hold to claim their sighting? I believe if you can’t accurately prove something, you can’t either say it’s not real."

This is where we delve into psychology. While they cannot be entirely disproven (as personal experience is impossible to examine after the fact), cannot be verified. Personal perception is subject to a number of factors. The human brain is very good at associating data with what it either knows or expects. You see light reflected off a four-legged object and immediately recognize it as a table. It is also an evolutionary development. We are programmed to recognize danger, which is why you will more often mistake a shadow for a person than a person for a shadow.

This is also a source of many illusions, especially when it comes to "religious manifestations," like the grilled cheese with the face of Jesus on it. If there are moderately distinctive markings where eyes, a nose, and a mouth should be, you recognize it as a face. If you see two distinctive knots in a door, you could be fooled into thinking they are looking at you (case in point, a woman in Waterbury, CT who was featured in a Penn and Teller episode). This is used for entertainment when looking at clouds. We know the clouds aren't really shaped like anything in particular, but our imaginations can give them any number of shapes.

When a person expects or wants to see a UFO when looking at an unfamiliar patch of lights, or the dust that settles in the fluid around the cornea, more often than not they will see a UFO, whether or not it's really there. Whether or not there is personal gain involved, sometimes people just want to be convinced that they know something others don't. Others just want the popularity. "Jim saw a UFO last night!" "Oh cool, Jim, tell us about it!" etc.

In the case of more than one witness, while harder to dismiss, it is still impossible to verify. Case in point, the "miracle of the sun." If more than one person witnesses an event, they will talk to each other about it, right? If the details are sketchy, they are especially likely to agree with whatever they think happened, rather than what really did happen. When there are multiple witnesses to an event that many others very well could have seen, yet didn't, it is still more probable that a few (the witnesses) are mistaken, rather than a lot (those who saw nothing).

While I don't believe the Anunaki exist(-ed), I don't entirely rule out the idea that there have been visitors at some point in the past. As I said before, it would be rather interesting if it were the case. I don't, however, lend any credibility to those who claim to have witnessed such events without presenting any sort of evidence. It's bad science and often a waste of resources to assume something is true because of a witness account and then study what could be a wild goose chase.


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Revenous
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22:14:53 Mar 20 2009
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La6muerte66, I can't disagree with you, you bring up interesting accounts to defend your beliefs and assumptions, Can i ask you in what way you believe the human or our species come from, as theory of creation? If it’s in the case that you choose the evolutionary theory, then what you believe created everything? Or do you believe that it was a mere coincidence everything out there? It is not to judge or anything im just curious of your points of views in previous replies.



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dabbler
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22:46:56 Mar 20 2009
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Those that fail to place speculation in context, sing the anthem " Anything is possible." , however they then present absolutes, I use the example of when
the popular scientist tenetivly agreed that a bio firm in probobillity van exist in a distant gallery, to me this is a milestone, of presedrnce( no ufologist released any consice summary), so now that it is not so fringe to subscri e to, and speculate about life on planets in distant gslecies. People press the matter to Visits, and communications, though if "if" visitors where assessed to have been or be present, the factions over speculation, and interpretTion of perceived intent, and application of presence would be the behavioral proliferation involving matters , fringe and Psueso-ology will always make money, and plug books to expand, on their adaptable "research".



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La6Muerte66
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23:22:08 Mar 20 2009
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"La6muerte66, I can't disagree with you, you bring up interesting accounts to defend your beliefs and assumptions, Can i ask you in what way you believe the human or our species come from, as theory of creation? If it’s in the case that you choose the evolutionary theory, then what you believe created everything? Or do you believe that it was a mere coincidence everything out there? It is not to judge or anything im just curious of your points of views in previous replies."

I agree with Abiogenesis. Ergo, I believe that in the early history of earth, the volatile chemicals and electrical storms in the atmosphere provided conditions that were conducive to the natural formation of amino acids as demonstrated by the Miller-Urey experiment. If you have time, these videos sum up most of the modern idea of the origin of life. After the formation of amino acids, the natural properties of chemicals allowed the formation of more complex molecules, eventually becoming what could be considered life. From there, competition and natural selection led to the formation of more complex life. Billions of years later, here we are.

Abiogenesis is still a relatively new theory, so there are very few solid facts and more possibilities. Of course, like all science, it rests on the assumption that what we can test and observe is all that there is. I'm extremely interested in seeing what more we find out about abiogenesis in the future.

So yes, I do essentially believe it was "just coincidence." The thing with the anthropic principle and other tautologies regarding the likelihood of the formation of life is that while it may be VERY unlikely that such complex life as human beings should form entirely by accident, few people take into account that the earth is one of a probable 400 billion+ planets in the Universe. While we know the conditions for life like ours to develop, we have no idea what different conditions could yield with a time frame of billions of years. The likelihood of life "spontaneously" arising (and when I say "spontaneously," I mean "naturally with no outside influence") is much more likely than we assume.


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FacelessUnknown
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00:56:13 Mar 21 2009
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The audio of the apollo missions will give all the evidence that is needed to prove there is ET life. Although heavily edited, there is transcripts that depict "Music" in space, not to mention there clearly code words being used such a boogie to describe things that the average human being is not to know about :)
Seriously, look into the music thing, its VERY intesting. Its on one of NASA's transcripts of the apollo missions.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread447131/pg1

^^A currently EXCELLENT thread about what went up on there. Enjoy :)



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Revenous
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01:19:39 Mar 21 2009
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Ok that’s the thing, maybe we have the proof of actual outer space creatures existence, yet is not out there for us to study it or prove them, not for the open/general public, that’s why i mean everything can go both ways. Although La6muerte66 theory sounds validating and more evidenced than others we posted previously, but it is not complete.



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Xzavier
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02:16:12 Mar 21 2009
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I'm not really going to get into this because currently pretty much anything a person says or believes in regards to possible alien life is purely theory based on personal assumptions and ideals.

I would like to say one thing however. To say that anything is known beyond a shadow of a doubt, be it about evolution, history, the speed of light or anything else you can think of is a mistake. Nothing is known beyond doubt, especially in regards to evolution and the creation of the universe. Science doesn't deal in absolutes, we tried that and it didn't really work out.



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dabbler
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02:32:22 Mar 21 2009
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So how much so is faith, and speculation? A majority of cases based on confirmed non extraterrestrial sightings anchors the majority UFO "research"
there is no agreement in the ranks if self entitled UFO specialist, there us never a retraction after a mass sighting is accounted for( by example declassification) even after such declassifications account for a sighting hack
Writers who usually fail at accedidation, press for full discloser. Fringe presses on. Those who say.. "You just need to open your minds" are likely to balk at any extremist presentation, like Would you let your child be sampled to determine if they where involved in an alien breeding plan? I bet people would look into the claim with scrutiny..



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Revenous
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04:16:27 Mar 21 2009
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Dabbler, I am not affiliated with any scientific or conspiracy theory about this subject, I’m looking for few of the people views about this besides the extremity of just thinking that we are alone and everything has to be proven by documentation ,Which you are most definitely right we should have evidence beside sheer speculation, but frankly with our present technology you can find more evidence to partially support the evolution theory and emergence of the species that ~L6M66~ explained previous posts. than we got to explore the possibilities of other life forms out there. The investigation can only go as far as we can reach, we haven’t even got our S-crafts out of the solar system, how can we avoid the possibilities just because we can’t find the evidence in here.



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dabbler
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06:29:55 Mar 21 2009
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Which raises the question, what is the relavency of such an endevor? What can we apply from finding space amebas? The consistent ALlien encounter is a psycological phenomena, it happened with The Satanic Child Care case.
Mass hysteria, milked by pseudo scientist, sometimes at the cost of grant money. Then the tabloids encourage people to retell, and modify "personal
Testimony", did you know the discovery about why people claim to have been probed in their rectum? It is related to the subconscious assumtion that if a story includes a humiliating intimate detail that the story will be more credible.

A popular sighting of UFO craft is when fairs have night time hot air balloon rides, a group of hot air balloons charging their balloons looks like a cigar shaped object zipping around on the horizon.

So the evidence against UFOs is discovery, and declassification.

I hope I was clear I am agreed that life forms could well exist on distant galexies. What is lost in me or anyone not subscribing, beyond notional
speculation to aliens interacting with earth, or for that matter "spirit entities" interacting with earth", or fairies appearing to humans..

When will people become so jaded by those proclaiming alien contact, that those who once professed alien contact begin to profess being aliens? UFO fans have always been a fringe element, why because they have no continuing prospects, all the tricks, and misinterpreted accounts have been
uncovered through actual investigation. People that seek the truth, not
obscure support for fanatic toclaimations.



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Revenous
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09:51:44 Mar 24 2009
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Knowing, interesting 2009 movie related to this topic, watch it if interested (it will be a dead link in few days):

part1:http://www.zshare.net/video/57400324556d32f7/

part2:http://www.zshare.net/video/5740036213e3313e/



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bat7777
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00:44:49 Mar 25 2009
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5000 years of technology has yeilded human "civilization" with near zero ability to even land on the fucking nearby lifeless moon.

we are at a point in human history where we are hitting a wall with our advancement of technology - because we ARE running out of resources, polluting the hell out of our ecosystem, all the while while we run around aimlessly fucking, fighting, and buying things.

and whoopie doo we have shot a few rockets thay have reached a peak speed of about 30000mph. that's the capstone of our technology.

****************************************

ok folks... math time

multiple trillions of dollars and tearing apart the earth has yeilded us a capacity for entering or exiting our little planets atmosphere at around 25000 miles per hour.

*light travels at 186000 miles PER second
*thats orbiting the equator at a pace of about 7 times a second
*thats orbiting the earth 420 times a minute
*thats orbiting the earth about 25000 times an hour
*so if for some possibility we managed to orbit a rocket at top speed around the earth it would take an hour

*the nearest star to earth (save the sun) is about 2.5 light years away
*so if for some reason we could shoot our little rocket to alpha centuri it would take us about 625000 years if it could MAINTAIN top speed
*even if we slingshot the motherfucker and it didn't need 625000 years of fuel i get a weird feeling the generations and generations of people aboard it MIGHT go crazy, run out of food/oxygen or something might go wrong

WE WILL NEVER TRAVEL ANYWHERE
AND NO ONE WILL VISIT US
WE EVOLVED ON THIS PLANET FROM MICROBES

*THERE WELL MAY BE SOME SORT OF LIFE ELSEWHERE
*IT IS NOT LOGICAL THAT IT WOULD RESEMBLE HUMANS
*IT'S HUMAN EGO/FANTASY THAT "ALIENS" LOOK LIKE US
*BUT THE DISTANCES ARE TOO FAR
*THE GAP AND SCOPE OF MATHEMATICAL REALISM WITH THE DEPLETION AND FINITENESS OF RESOURCES MAKE IT REASONABLY I M P O S S I B L E that we will ever have actual contact with extraterrestial life forms!

think !!!
do the math... read some history/astrophysics!
stop reading your crazy conspiracy crap!

we may not be alone in ALL there is... but we humans on planet earth will NEVER live to see otherwise



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Revenous
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02:36:11 Mar 25 2009
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That’s an ignorant way to think, I believe few centuries ago you wouldn’t have something that goes faster than a cheetah or cannon, and many years later you have things that can travel faster than sound, it is simply ignorant to think we can’t get out of our solar system within few more decades or centuries with our fast growth and continuously growing technological knowledge, energy and mechanical manipulation, you are visualizing this explanation with the perspective of our current technology, you are probably right that about generations and resources running out on a shuttle to the nearest star for example, but for all you know we can come up with a scientific breakthrough such as travelling through wormholes, travelling at near speed of light or sending probes or anything we have to discover life out there, just because our technology is young and limited on present times doesn’t mean it can’t be done or challenged in a future, and just because you don’t live to see it doesn’t mean others wouldn’t have the same opportunities in distant future. Few didn’t had the opportunity few decades ago too see color pictures and knowledge of all our planets that you can admire today, math books? I know my numbers, I don’t need them to believe on the probabilities of occurrence of an event, try associating history with present knowledge before you go teaching others your algorithm bullshit.



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littleflames
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05:24:13 Mar 26 2009
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No i dont belive it , its all lies ...
you see i do belive in supernatural and i think that it was told how to do the things our ancent people got there info from.
They did not some times read into what they were given and came out with the wrong things.

There for if you think that their is a nother race i think you have been hearing what you want to hear .
Not what is .
but is only my point of view...
You see we are all peaces of a puzzle , some try to fit were they dont.
Others belive they have found there place in life and it is only what they want not what is ...
To find one self you must know yourself and then to know yourself you must die to self to save yourself from the lies of this world you see no one person is from here but we take up our home here and call it that then this is your home .
But as for me it is only a place that i reside in...
Find who you are ...
Seek out your relitives...
Know where your family came from...
But know this what we were ment to be we are not becuse we start to belive the lies .



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ObsidianFury
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the crystal skull is not a mere propaganda film or scam it is real.... the lab over at the hp company and other labs said that there is no assessable way that man could have craved these skull. they were craved with the grain, (which is next to impossible with the quality that was put in to it) there is not a single flaw in the skull, they even say that the great pyramids of Gaza where ways of observing the sun and other stars. this article has a bit more on the subject of the crystal skulls. crystal skull article



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Severus
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01:36:57 Mar 28 2009
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The Great Pyramid Of Giza
Khufu Pyramid Statistics

A total of over 2,300,000 blocks of limestone and granite were used in its construction with the average block weighing 2.5 tons and none weighing less than 2 tons.
The large blocks used in the ceiling of the King's Chamber weigh as much as 9 tons.
Construction date (Estimated): 2589 B.C.
Construction time (Estimated): 20 years.
Total weight (Estimated): 6.5 million tons. or 14 billion lbs.
The base of the pyramid covers 13 acres, 568,500 square feet and the length of each side was originally 754 feet, but is now 745 feet.
The original height was 481 feet tall, but is now only 449 feet.
The majority of the outer casing, which was polished limestone, was removed about 600 years ago to help build the city of Cairo which created a rough, worn, and step-like appearance as seen today.

Fact:
In order for the Pyramid to have been built in the time frame of 20 years the following would have to be true -

2,300,000 blocks - divided by – 20 years = 115,000 blocks per year.
115,000 blocks - divided by – 12 months = 9,583 blocks per month
9,583 blocks - divided by – 30 days = 319 blocks per day
319 blocks - divided by – 24 hrs. = 13 blocks per hour
13 blocks - divided by – 60 mins. = 1 block every 4.6 seconds

In order for the great pyramid to have been built in 20 year one of those massive 2 ton block would have to been placed into position every four and a half seconds for 20 year straight.
As you can see that the construction of these marvels could not have been preformed by a semi Stone Age race.
Another part of the puzzle is the alignment of the world's ancient sites. Easter Island is exactly aligned along a straight line around the center of the Earth, with the Nazca lines, Ollantaytambo and the Great Pyramid of Egypt. Other world wonders that are within one tenth of one degree of this alignment include: Perseopolis, the capital city of ancient Persia; Mohenjo Daro, the ancient capital city of the Indus Valley; the Oracle of Zeus-Amon at Siwa; and the lost city of Petra. The Ancient Sumarian city of Ur and Angkor temples in Cambodia and Thailand are within one degree of latitude of this alignment.
The alignment of these sites is easily observable on a globe of the Earth with a horizon ring. If you line up any two of these sites on the horizon ring, all of the sites will be right on the horizon ring. 3-D world atlas software programs can also draw this line around the Earth. Start on the Equator, at the mouth of the Amazon River, at 48° 36' West Longitude; go to 30° 22' North Latitude, 41° 24' East Longitude, in the Middle East, which is the maximum latitude the line touches; then go to the Equator at 131° 24' East Longitude, near the Northwest tip of New Guinea; then to 30° 22' South Latitude, 138° 36' West Longitude, in the South Pacific; and then back to 48° 36' West Longitude, at the Equator. but I'm a nice guy so I did the work for you. lol

The circumference of this line around the center of the Earth is 24,892 miles. Along this line, the great circle distance from the Great Pyramid to Ollantaytambo is 7,472 miles, 30.0% of the circumference. Ollantaytambo is 2,579 miles from Easter Island, 10.3%. Easter Island is 10,096 miles from Angkor Wat, 40.6%. Angkor Wat is 2,490 miles from Mohenjo Daro, 10.0%. Mohenjo Daro is 2255 miles from from the Great Pyramid, 9.1%. In addition to calculating the distances between these sites as a percentage of the circumference of the Earth, the distances may also be calculated in degrees of the 360° circumference, by multiplying the percentage by 3.6. For example, the Great Pyramid is 108° away from Ollantaytambo. Near Ollantaytambo, Machupicchu is within one quarter of a degree and Cuzco is within one third of a degree of the alignment.
This deminstrates that not one but all old these loctions and peoples had knowledge of each other. the only way to be that persice it to have an outer space perspective.
now befor you thing that I'm jumping on the little green men from mars band wagon, let me tell you I'M NOT!!!
Knowledge may have been the tool uses to build these wonders but I believe we should go deeper inside ourselves be for we look upward.
The creation of the universe was so finely balanced that it was unlikely to have occurred by chance alone. If the expansion rate of the early universe was just a trillionth of one percent higher than it was, the universe would have expanded too rapidly for solid matter to form. If the expansion rate had been just a trillionth of a percent less than it was, the universe would have collapsed back in on itself very quickly. In either case there would be no stars, no planets and no life. But supposing it did result purely by chance, it certainly wouldn’t have been spot on the first time, in which case we can assume that the universe kept trying again and again until it reached perfect balance. Here we have a situation whereby trillions and trillions of attempts would be required to get it right. Unless the universe could somehow learn from its mistakes – then it would be able to achieve success much more quickly and easily. This scenario suggests that the universe must either be self-consciousness or have been designed by some intelligence that exists beyond the psychics of the known material universe.
But to realize that the universe is not the product of coincidence we don’t really need calculations at all. We just need to look around and reflect on the perfection inherent in life, the universe and everything. If life only exists biologically where do thoughts, feelings and emotions come from? Their very existence seems to imply that there is more to life than just biology, that there is more to life than just survival. If life has no higher purpose, why does it strive to go on, and why did it even begin in the first place? If you enter in the concept of reincarnation and the need for the spirit to experience the psychical aspects of life, then the universe may not be an accident at all – it could be that it was formed solely to support the purpose our spirits and souls needed!



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La6Muerte66
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03:59:39 Mar 28 2009
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Firstly, the Crystal Skulls are fakes. Here's a more reliable source.

Secondly, "The Great Pyramid is the most comprehensively studied building in the world. It sited at the northern edge of the Giza plateau. It was estimated that 2,300,000 blocks of stone, weighing between 2-70 tons each, were used in its construction, but recent computer calculations estimated the total number of slabs to be 590,712. The mortar used is of an unknown origin. It has been analyzed and it's chemical composition is known but even using today techniques it can't be reproduced." - Quoted from this website.

If there are only around 590,712 stones, then by repeating your calculations we find that it would only require about 3.37 stones to be put in place per hour, and with teams of people working staggered shifts (they were most likely slaves, remember), the pyramid could have easily been constructed in 20 years.

Not to say this is definite either, but you have to look at both sides of the argument before leaping to the conclusion that it MUST have been built by aliens.

It is a common assumption that because early civilizations lacked the modern technology we have, they must have been primitive.



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trepidation
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08:20:20 Mar 28 2009
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Many times have i pondered this and many times i think that we are not alone! True you could believe that the Aztecs and and all the other ancient races were indeed far more supior in mind than that of today's humans it is quite possible that they were in contact with the 'outer space' and did indeed recieve travels from distant planets, i mean why would they come to a civillization that to be quite honest is retarded in many ways.

I believe it true that there are many more advance civilizations up there.

There has to be something out there.



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dabbler
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17:21:59 Mar 28 2009
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The same civilization that had superstitions about gods, causing vulcanies to erupt.. ? So if they had such advanced guidance, where are the metal alloys that we should have crafted using stored text, or even recording devices. Such an insult to mankind.



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bat7777
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00:23:37 Mar 29 2009
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speaking of the mayans, who were ever so advanced in their use of slavery & human sacrifice... if they were in contact with some advanced interstellar race... why did muskets and smallpox cause them to be demolished in a few decades... you think they might have advancements like lazerbeams or immunity to disease.

the mayans were like EVERY other empire - destined to crumble. and do a little research - each and every FALLEN empire has had all sorts of supernatural and mythological beliefs and mysteries (think egypt, rome, the chinese dynasties, even the NAZIs). part of the "mystery" is that they are gone and have only left a few pieces to interpret. so here we are in 2009, still steeped in mythology - not all that advanced in our euro-american EMPIRE - pretending to believe in vampires and spacemen.

come on folks... get on the boat - the printing press was developed in 1454 and the scientific revolution and enlightenment were centuries ago.

*************************************

going to hokey, unresearched, unscientific webpages with a lack of emperical evidence does not "prove" anything... but it can sway the opinion of some.

*************************************

as i said before... the scientific chance of life elsewhere in the universe is certainly very high. but the REALITY of the ants who abide on this big blue marble (EARTH) meeting up due to energy/distances/time makes our interaction with them next to IMPOSSIBLE.

don't drop that "but everything is possible" line now.

when i say possible i mean our chance of meeting up with aliens statistically in the trillions... and the chance of other life RESEMBLING us in terms of biology is even further from possible... in the googleplexes.

************************************

"aliens" who just so would happen to have bilaterally symetrical bodies, 4 limbs, a size simliar to ours, the same facial features, etc seems to me A LITTLE BIT IRONIC. about as ironic as "God" resembling humans and sitting on his throne. about as ironic that people are afraid of impermanence/death.

and that FEAR invokes (as it has for eons) a need to "believe" in myths... gods, monsters, aliens, what have you.... EVEN VAMPIRES!!!!

***********************************



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dabbler
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00:34:14 Mar 29 2009
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It is rather yelling when similar roles are placed on aliens as on dieties, "God" made man, and aided mans moral development, and will come back to reclaim his creation, "Aliens" are believed to have aided man to better technology, and believed to be returning to usher in a new advanced era.



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Severus
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05:50:59 Mar 29 2009
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Having read some of the current responses I was compled to return. - the answer are always in the math my my kin. Now I don't want to crush anyones dreams here but it's like watching bevis and buthead. In order for life to have started here and out there you would almost have to throw religon into a coffin and chuck it overboad.
Which would leave us with evolution. The problem with evolution is that it is just like religon - god and the devil - can't have one without the other. Which means if life can happen here than there must be life out there as well. Sounds great, has sex appeal, but just one problem we still have to do the MATH.

Problem#1
The theory of evolution is based upon random mutations and survival of the fittest – i.e. a genetic mutation occurs, and if it is beneficial the organism prospers, but if it is detrimental the organism struggles, and the mutation dies out along with the organism. It sounds like a reasonable theory for explaining how small changes occur, e.g. to gradually adapt to changing environmental conditions. But it completely fails to address how complex bodily systems and structures form or how life began in the first place. Mutations are generally associated with detrimental effects like cancer and radiation sickness, not with intelligent design or positive evolution. They add chaos to a system; not order. Random mutations quite clearly did not give rise to human beings. Supporters of evolution think they can explain the whole progression of life on Earth by breaking everything down into little steps, but that doesn’t explain great leaps such as how life began in the first place, or evolution between the mineral, plants, animals and the human kingdom. They can’t explain how self-consciousness evolved, how emotions evolved, how dreams evolved, or how our sense of humor evolved, because these faculties have no bearing on survival of the fittest. It could be argued that strong emotions prevent us from thinking logically and are therefore detrimental, so why have they survived the evolutionary process?

Problem #2
In their book Evolution from Space, astronomers Sir Fred Hoyle and Professor Chandra Wickramasinghe calculated that the odds of randomly producing the required enzymes for a simple living cell were 1 in 1,040,000. Since the number of atoms in the known universe is only 1080, they argued that even a whole universe full of "primordial soup" wouldn’t stand a chance. Hoyle also compared the random emergence of the simplest cell to the likelihood that "a tornado sweeping through a junk-yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein."
The creation of the universe was so finely balanced that it was unlikely to have occurred by chance alone. If the expansion rate of the early universe was just a trillionth of one percent higher than it was, the universe would have expanded too rapidly for solid matter to form at all. If the expansion rate had been just a trillionth of a percent less than it was, the universe would have collapsed back in on itself. In either case there would be no stars, no planets and no life. But supposing it did result purely by chance, it certainly wouldn’t have been spot on the first time, in which case we can assume that the universe kept trying again and again until it reached that perfect balance. Here we have a situation whereby trillions and trillions of attempts would be required to get it right. Unless the universe could somehow learn from its mistakes – then it would be able to achieve success much more quickly and easily. This scenario suggests that the universe must either be self-consciousness or have been designed by some intelligence that exists beyond the psychics of the known material universe, that would refect intelligence design.
I hope someone is willing to jump overboad and save god. lol

The eminent mathematical physicist Sir Roger Penrose calculated the chances of a life-supporting universe happening by chance to be 1 in 1010^123. Let me try to put that number into perspective: 1010^3 is a 1 followed by a thousand zeros, 1010^6 is a 1 followed by a million zeros and 1010^9 is a 1 followed by billion zeros. These numbers are practically impossible to imagine, but 1010^123 is so big that it is totally inconceivable to the human mind. So with odds of only 1 in 1010^123 it can be said with absolute certainty that a life-supporting universe could never happen by chance -
while you overboad look for the little green men too.

The fact is no one will ever be able to make a viable theory about the orgins of man or any other form of life... even if it hit us in the face!!
You simply can not test and verify that which you can not understand. The theory of evolution or intelligence design will remain a theory even if the math tells us the they both of them sould be as dead as Julius Caesar.



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DecemberNemesis
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07:48:15 Mar 29 2009
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Revenous...

Personally, I'm fond of the idea of Something more or less messing with the Human Race from pretty much day one. Some might say guiding us along, others might say, messing with our collective minds. I dont think they necessarily come from another planet, and I dont think they brought us here from somewhere else either.

You ask about these ancient technologies, well civilizations rise and civilizations fall, and the human race is proven by Science to be much older than certain religious texts claim. Certainly old enough to have achieved high levels of technology very different from what we have now, and also old enough to have rapidly declined and then vanished. Even without a trace.

But here's one the skeptics might have a harder time arguing with you about. Do a search on Coral Castle. I''ve been there. It's well documented, and it was not only made by one man, it was also moved from it's original location, to it's current one, by one man. Speculation ranges from knowledge of ancient Egyptian technologies, to figuring out how to move objects by sound wave, to aliens.





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bat7777
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08:14:48 Mar 29 2009
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i've been to coral castle and was no more impressed by it than i was by CARHENGE in alliance, nebraska.

there is no proof of "ancient" technology or connection to some alien race as far as it's construction is concerned.

i don't dispute your stating that some more advanced (so to speak) technologies may have been lost over the ages... probably entire civilizations.

but that puts us here in 2009 NO CLOSER to the LIKEY REALITY that we are not being visited by human-resembling aliens who travel with near light speed technology in & out of wormholes or what have you.

the fact that modern man with all his suvs, ipods, icbms, and ebay is still confused as to how the pyrimids may have been constructed does not magically imply that they were built be aliens! (or by some subterranean species or some inter-dimensional race)

i don't consider myself or dabbler or some of the others using logic/science regarding this (or numerous other) thread a "skeptic". i consider myself a REALIST.

if you have REAL proof beyond self-serving, unfounded speculation... please enlighten the rest of the world. and have a happy day......



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DecemberNemesis
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08:48:41 Mar 29 2009
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I dont believe I said there was any "proof" in regards to Coral Castle. I merely stated some of the SPECULATIONS as how it was built. The only "proof" I was offering, is that it EXISTS. Which you are not disputing.

And that's fine if you didnt find it impressive. I thought it would encompass a larger area of ground myself, but I found the sculptures themselves pretty impressive, considering the tools used, and the lack of manpower, beyond the single individual who built it.

I fail to understand where you came to the conclusion that my post was in any way "self serving". Skeptics generally are "Realists" and I dont see anything necessarily wrong with either. I offered Coral Castle up because it's one of the most modern of the sites in which how it was even created is a mystery. Therefore, better documented then say, the pyramids.

~shrugs~
Have a nice day yourself.



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DecemberNemesis
DecemberNemesis

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09:03:19 Mar 29 2009
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Sorry Batt, but I missed this part

"but that puts us here in 2009 NO CLOSER to the LIKEY REALITY that we are not being visited by human-resembling aliens who travel with near light speed technology in & out of wormholes or what have you."

I never said I believe in aliens from outer space either. Much less that I believe in aliens that look like us. I think there is SOMETHING that seems intelligent, and there seems a significant amount of clues in our world history, religions, etc to suggest it's been here for at least as long as we have. But I also think it's Indigenous to this planet, not from somewhere else. I also dont pretend I know what exactly it is.

My apologies if something I said or didnt say caused the confusion...it's late, I'm tired, and it's entirely possible I wasnt clear enough in my previous post.




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La6Muerte66
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10:02:09 Mar 29 2009
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"Problem#1
The theory of evolution is based upon random mutations and survival of the fittest – i.e. a genetic mutation occurs, and if it is beneficial the organism prospers, but if it is detrimental the organism struggles, and the mutation dies out along with the organism. It sounds like a reasonable theory for explaining how small changes occur, e.g. to gradually adapt to changing environmental conditions. But it completely fails to address how complex bodily systems and structures form or how life began in the first place."


The theory of evolution is based on random mutation coupled with Natural Selection AND genetic drift. What you seem to be missing about the complex systems is a sense of scale. Small changes build upon one another to make big changes. Evolution has nothing to do with how life GOT here. It is merely the explanation of how it developed once it was here. Abiogenesis covers the origins of life. Don't confuse the two, Ben Stein.


"Mutations are generally associated with detrimental effects like cancer and radiation sickness, not with intelligent design or positive evolution. They add chaos to a system; not order. Random mutations quite clearly did not give rise to human beings."

In common language, mutations are associated with harm, but in reality the vast majority of mutations are neutral, as the human body goes through over 100 in its lifetime, and only a select few are negative. A couple are positive as well, such as immunity to a disease (there is an immunity to HIV making its way through Europe right now), thicker bone density, increased muscle mass, etc. You sound just like a Creationist right now. Random mutations DID give rise to human beings.


"Supporters of evolution think they can explain the whole progression of life on Earth by breaking everything down into little steps,"

Because we can.


"but that doesn’t explain great leaps such as how life began in the first place,"

Because evolution has nothing to do with it.


"or evolution between the mineral, plants, animals and the human kingdom."

Unless you want every individual species between the earliest life and humans (which would just be stupid), yes we can. We can trace our ancestry back to the earliest moments (billions of years) on earth.

Watch the videos by cdk007 and donexodus2 on Youtube. They're both biologists, and are therefore a great deal more reliable for information than you are.


"They can’t explain how self-consciousness evolved, how emotions evolved, how dreams evolved, or how our sense of humor evolved, because these faculties have no bearing on survival of the fittest."

There are a few hypotheses out there as to the evolution of our minds, but without a complete understanding of how the brain works, how can you expect us to know how it developed? They certainly may have a direct bearing on survival of the fittest, based on their purpose. We have emotions because they help us to connect with others. Our kinships with others help us to survive.


"It could be argued that strong emotions prevent us from thinking logically and are therefore detrimental, so why have they survived the evolutionary process?"

The overpowering of logic by emotion may well be a misfiring of a once-useful evolutionary advantage. It could be argued that all emotion is a misfiring of an evolutionary passion for reproduction, kinship, and ultimately survival.


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La6Muerte66
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"Problem #2
In their book Evolution from Space, astronomers Sir Fred Hoyle and Professor Chandra Wickramasinghe calculated that the odds of randomly producing the required enzymes for a simple living cell were 1 in 1,040,000. Since the number of atoms in the known universe is only 1080, they argued that even a whole universe full of "primordial soup" wouldn’t stand a chance. Hoyle also compared the random emergence of the simplest cell to the likelihood that "a tornado sweeping through a junk-yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein.""


The problem with "Problem #2" is that there is no accurate way to calculate the probability of something happening unless every factor is known. Even IF the probability is incredibly low, that still doesn't make it any MORE likely that life came from space, as many other authors have suggested as well. Claiming that life on Earth came from space just shifts the goalposts, and doesn't answer the question of where said life originated. It is an unnecessary hypothesis, as there's no evidence that life originated anywhere BUT Earth. Many Creationists also bring up the "Boeing 747" comparison, but again, there's absolutely no way to calculate the comparative probability. Not to mention, self-replicating systems have self-generated in laboratory tests performed by Miller and Urey. Refer to the video links I posted earlier to see more on how Abiogenesis works.


"The creation of the universe was so finely balanced that it was unlikely to have occurred by chance alone. If the expansion rate of the early universe was just a trillionth of one percent higher than it was, the universe would have expanded too rapidly for solid matter to form at all."

This is part of what is known as the Anthropic Principle, which in science amounts to nothing more than a tautology. Basically, if things were different, they'd be different. We don't, however, have any way of testing whether any sort of "life" could arise under any other circumstances, with any different fundamental laws, because we don't know of any universes in which these conditions exist. The anthropic principle is rejected by science nowadays.


"But supposing it did result purely by chance, it certainly wouldn’t have been spot on the first time, in which case we can assume that the universe kept trying again and again until it reached that perfect balance. Here we have a situation whereby trillions and trillions of attempts would be required to get it right."

Who's to say the Universe hasn't gone through trillions of cycles? There's still know way to test it, and therefore it's useless to speculate.


"Unless the universe could somehow learn from its mistakes – then it would be able to achieve success much more quickly and easily. This scenario suggests that the universe must either be self-consciousness or have been designed by some intelligence that exists beyond the psychics of the known material universe, that would refect intelligence design."

This is just irrelevant rambling now. There's no evidence that the universe is self-correcting, nor to suggest any number of Universes. It's beyond our knowledge, and until evidence DOES come up that suggests there were more in the past, there's no reason to speculate either way.


"The fact is no one will ever be able to make a viable theory about the orgins of man or any other form of life... even if it hit us in the face!!"

Abiogenesis Theory, while still new, explains the origins of life on Earth rather well. Even if we were never to confirm how life really did originate on Earth, that doesn't stop evolution from being a confirmed fact. We've observed it. We can trace it back through the fossil record well over a billion years.


"The theory of evolution or intelligence design will remain a theory even if the math tells us the they both of them sould be as dead as Julius Caesar."

There is no theory of Intelligent Design. Never has there been any evidence that life was designed, nor has there ever been any evidence that there is a designer. A theory is an explanation as a result of mountains of evidence, only accepted as such after failing to be disproven. It is a gross misrepresentation of science for anyone to say evolution is "just a theory." Gravity, cells, and atoms are "just theories" as well, but ceasing to acknowledge them does not make them go away. A theory is only called a theory because of the humility of science and its refusal to claim to know anything 100%. We don't know 100% that gravity, cells, or atoms exist. However, as theories, they're just as positively known as evolution.


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La6Muerte66
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19:53:07 Mar 29 2009
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Okay, so my coding got screwed up there. To fix that paragraph,

This is what's known as the Anthropic Principle, which in science amounts to nothing more than a tautology. Basically, if things were different, they'd be different. We don't, however, have any way of testing whether any sort of "life" could have arisen under different fundamental conditions. If the Universe was different, perhaps life could have arisen differently. We'll probably never be able to test it, and there's never been any evidence to suggest either way, so there's absolutely no point in speculating.



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dabbler
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The similarity between Established, and fringe religions, and Psuedo, and Fringe science is telling of the projected expectancy of those who hold out for
The alien coming, or the unveiling, or even the First Contact Cults that follow Seti like Devote Bible readers. My observation is that just the spectacular probability exist that. Bio form exist else where in the greater cosmo is enough, yet sensationalist, and those who although they are rejecting of established religions deities, seek to have an outside grandier'.



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Severus
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16:48:31 Mar 30 2009
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Thank the Greek gods – Finally, someone who is willing and able to sustain an inelegant and sarcastic debate.
First off I would like to thank our local Dr. Phil for comparing me to Ben Stein, second I would like to state that for someone to assume that any one person can clearly be smarter than another based only on there profession is stupid. Albert Einstein and Marlin Monroe were good friend and they often held highly intelligent conversations about his theories. That’s right the woman who epitomized the classic definition of the blond bimbo had a 163 IQ.
With that being said let the debate continue...

1831, Darwin joined a five year scientific expedition on the survey ship HMS Beagle. On the voyage, Darwin read Lyell's 'Principles of Geology' which suggested that the fossils found in rocks were actually evidence of animals that had lived many thousands or millions of years ago. Lyell's argument reinforced Darwin's own ideas. While in the Galapagos Islands Darwin noticed that each island supported its own form of finch which were closely related but differed in important ways. On his return to England in 1836, Darwin tried to solve the riddles of these observations and the puzzle of how species evolve. Influenced by the ideas of Malthus, he proposed a theory of evolution occurring by the process of natural selection. The animals (or plants) best suited to their environment are more likely to survive and reproduce, passing on the characteristics which helped them survive to their offspring. Gradually, the species changes over time. These characteristics would undoubtedly be genetics
Today, we realize that such resemblances—in physical structure and embryonic development-are expressions of shared DNA, the direct outcome of a common ancestry. Life is specified by genomes. Every organism, including humans, has a genome that contains all of the biological information needed to build and maintain a living example of that organism. The genetic code strand in the human genome is only four strands away from chimpanzees, where white rice is only three strands away from the human genome. Does that mean we all need to stop eating Chinese food??

The simple facts are that Darwin’s theory does without question support how the evolution process of any given spices can occur via subtle biological changes. But the naturalist’s theory of all life being traced back to single primordial ooze is unsupportable. You basically stated that scientific theories can really only be proven via consensus of opinion. Like the world is flat, and breaking the sound barrier will rip a hole in the ozone layer, or that eating spinach can make you super strong. Well in that is all that is need is consensus than 89 % all people on Earth believe in a higher power - even if that power is the Egyptian God of death, or the Greek God of the Ocean, no wait the Roman house Gods… I think you get the point!

My argument was that whether it is Darwin, or Inelegant Design, Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawkins, You can’t have the Mustang without the Model T, the theories of complex life and universal development do not mix - and they need to!!!
Without how life starts you can’t have naturalists like Darwin, without the facts of how of the universes beginnings you can’t have a life making ooze. Without ooze on Earth there’s no ooze out there forming little green men. The topic was “Alone in the Universe ?”

Lastly - Thanx La6Muerte66 for allowing me the opportunity to take a few pot shots, at the same time let me say ur a smart kid… keep the knife sharp.

P.S. The Egyptian’s of the 4th dynasty where not a formidable military nation and even if they where there was not enough slaves within a 2000 mile radius to supply the work force need to complete the task in 20 years. Laying even just three of those 2 or 5 ton blocks once a day would have still required them to get it from the quarry to the work site. The weight of the block would have crushed any logs they rolled them on to pulp in a very short distance, that’s assuming you could roll something on sand or coble stone road in the first place. The only trees around where date palms, as a food source they would never have been cut down. Yet once again science run a muck - the log rollers concept is being taught in schools today as fact on how the Pyramids where build, when in reality they’re not even really good theories.



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ImperfectBeing
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18:11:51 Mar 30 2009
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In Egypt the mortuary temple excavated by Von Sieglin in 1910 was found to consist of blocks weighing between 100 and 300 tons , How was it possible to manoeuvre something of that weight ? I,d like to see it done using only rollers and man power .



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dabbler
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18:15:16 Mar 30 2009
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I would like to see a self important "specialist" on aliens acctually contribute something to civilization, I mean they claim to be in contact with aliens, and for the price of a book, or seminar, you can go and hear some flattering pap about the aliens plans for us.. but what prey tell are aliens allowing some pompous self promoting hack be their front man, are these aliens so intelligent after all?



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Revenous
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19:31:15 Mar 30 2009
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I agree with ~moonbubble~
To add the mysterious construction of the Stonehenge being built between 3100 – 1100 BC composed of two types of stones used in its construction: the ‘bluestones’ (weighing as much as four tons) and the Sarsen stones (averaging eighteen feet in height and from twenty-five to forty-five tons in weight) all brought from 240 miles away in order to produce the dolmens and menirs for its construction, we are talking about many stones here not one of each, pretty hard task for a Neolithic group of individuals. “I’d like to see it done using only rollers and man power” too, specially those 25- 45 tons one’s being dragged 240 miles away from the destination site. Needless to say how all the ancient cultures had a similar idealistic way of monumental construction, alike in other cultures across the oceans and all being temples and altars for alluding god-like “creatures” from heavens, every single one having in correlation the astronomical alignments of their monuments. Pretty similar for a coincidence, I say.



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Euterpe
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I agree with La6Muerte66. Those instances and coincidences could be anything. I think that people just don't give ancient civilizations enough credit. We discoved electricity all by ourselves so why is it SO UNTHINKABLE that they discovered irrigation? We're a smart race, it's what seperates us from the animals.
A good comparison to what I'm talking about can be found in a newborn baby. They start learning and developing when they are conceived. Even after they are born they learn and can tell emotions apart. They know when you are sad or upset and know when you are happy. They see you walking on two feet, therefore, they want to do the same.
We learn quickly.
I'm not saying that there are no such thing as aliens or whatever. But if there are the chances that they even care what we say or do and IF they even HAVE that technology are ASTRONOMICAL. A hundred BILLION to LESS than one. The universe is a big place. And science has proven that there isn't a single planet capable of supporting life in our entire galaxy. (you need liquid water to support life) and there isn't ONE planet that can do that.
OH sure you think automatically of Mars or Europa but that water is frozen those planets would need to be the exact distance from the sun that ours is in order to do it. Too far and it will freeze and too close and it will evaporate. Our planet just happens to be in the exact right spot.
SO when the aliens come along and show us the video tapes that they've kept of us ALL THESE YEARS and take us all on a BIG journey to the stars. CALL ME!!! I don't want to miss seeing this planet that looks and acts just like ours!



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Severus
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20:39:27 Mar 30 2009
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Excellent point Moonbubble –
But let’s go one step further.
The building theory is that they built a ramp and pushed / rolled take you pick… up the ramp. They then moved the block into position, and just like shampoo - rinse and reap. This is also being taught as fact in our schools, but there is some obvious reason why this should have been discredited a long time ago. In order for them to have done this they would have had to increase the height of the ramp as the pyramid grew in height. It would have taken as much effort to build the ramp as it would of to build the pyramid itself. You also would have had… ah what, some 300 billion lbs. of construction garbage to get ride of when you were finished.



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La6Muerte66
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"The simple facts are that Darwin’s theory does without question support how the evolution process of any given spices can occur via subtle biological changes. But the naturalist’s theory of all life being traced back to single primordial ooze is unsupportable."

It may be true that abiogenesis and the first period of life's development are not very well supported by empirical evidence, but as I already stated, it is a relatively new theory. It was only 150 years ago that Louis Pasteur definitively proved that spontaneous generation was false. It wasn't until relatively recently that we even had the tools with which to understand life in its most basic forms. As I also said before, it has already been proven by the Miller-Urey experiment that simple amino acids and basic self-replicating systems can form in only a week. Imagine what several million years can do.


"You basically stated that scientific theories can really only be proven via consensus of opinion."

And here lies the fatal flaw in your argument. I did not imply that theories rely on opinion, but objective, empirical evidence. It isn't the believability of theories, but their supporting evidence and the consequent inability to disprove them. If anything, theories are initially accepted begrudginly.

Consensus of opinion would be the basis for a fallacy ad populum, or the idea that majority opinion determines ultimate truth. It's quite obvious why this doesn't hold water in any sort of rational argument.


"the theories of complex life and universal development do not mix - and they need to!!! "

At their most fundamental levels, they do. The Universe, on every level, is governed by the electromagnetic force, the strong and weak nuclear forces, and gravity. Together, these forces are the cause and guiding "intelligence" (that is not to imply that they think, but more to illustrate the point) behind literally everything that has ever happened in this Universe. This is the only level at which cosmological development and complex life need to be associated, and they are literally identical in the way that they are affected. Beyond that, there is no way to compare stars and planets with life. One cannot compare inanimate objects with reproducing, competing, mutating, LIVING organisms. It just doesn't (and can never) work.


"Without how life starts you can’t have naturalists like Darwin, without the facts of how of the universes beginnings you can’t have a life making ooze."

The entire point is that you CAN have naturalists examining the complexity of life without ever worrying about how it got here. Newton had no idea how gravity worked or where it came from, but did that prevent him from developing incredibly accurate formulas that are still used to determine acceleration and trajectory in physics classrooms today? You don't need to know how life originated to know how complex life developed.


And you're welcome for the opportunity. I can only restrain sarcasm for so long. It's only fair that it be thrown back at me.

As for the Egyptians, I'll have to address your argument when i have a bit more time.


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dabbler
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00:47:37 Mar 31 2009
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Plenty of skeptic, critical thinking people I know, accept that life can exist out there in distant galexies, the fringist/fanatical that push the envelop to
insist that it is just as reasonable to assume, that that bio form is First Sentient, second capable of mapping space, then sending communications, or acheive galatic travel. Then to really stretch the BS pitch insist that there is reason to believe they they intervened in our history. But have yet to u veil themselves, and that the government I'd covering it up.. so is the next sensational step, building a portal and charging people to walk through it to get to the alien paradise.. ? Ask yourself if that is too far..



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Isis101
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I don't think that we are the only planet with intelligent life; there are just too many galaxies out there that we know nothing about. Our planet is just one of millions, so the odds of intelligent life elsewhere look pretty good.



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La6Muerte66
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"To add the mysterious construction of the Stonehenge being built between 3100 – 1100 BC composed of two types of stones used in its construction: the ‘bluestones’ (weighing as much as four tons) and the Sarsen stones (averaging eighteen feet in height and from twenty-five to forty-five tons in weight) all brought from 240 miles away in order to produce the dolmens and menirs for its construction, we are talking about many stones here not one of each, pretty hard task for a Neolithic group of individuals. “I’d like to see it done using only rollers and man power” too, specially those 25- 45 tons one’s being dragged 240 miles away from the destination site."

First off, aside from personal incredulity it's not all that unlikely that a sufficiently dedicated group of individuals would drag stones such a great distance in order to build their monument if they deemed such a location important enough in the first place. People, if properly motivated, can accomplish incredible feats. As for the construction of Stonehenge, I came across this video a while ago, and I thought I'd share it:



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La6Muerte66
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03:05:49 Mar 31 2009
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"The Egyptian’s of the 4th dynasty where not a formidable military nation and even if they where there was not enough slaves within a 2000 mile radius to supply the work force need to complete the task in 20 years. Laying even just three of those 2 or 5 ton blocks once a day would have still required them to get it from the quarry to the work site. The weight of the block would have crushed any logs they rolled them on to pulp in a very short distance, that’s assuming you could roll something on sand or coble stone road in the first place. The only trees around where date palms, as a food source they would never have been cut down. Yet once again science run a muck - the log rollers concept is being taught in schools today as fact on how the Pyramids where build, when in reality they’re not even really good theories."

Okay, as for the construction of the Pyramids, I've found a few competing theories on the topic that don't require thousands of workers, and which can be accomplished in 20-25 years.

http://www.theforgottentechnology.com

http://www.haitheory.com

Again, it's a common fallacy to assume that ancient cultures were too primitive to use engineering knowledge to accomplish tasks that are unthinkable by many modern individuals.


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Revenous
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05:58:10 Mar 31 2009
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~La6muerte66~
I understand your point; but this is simply incomparable, here you got this guy with modern understandings and vast amount of studies in physics and construction of our 2000 years of written history and scientific recompilations, then you have this group of Neolithic/bronze era individuals who just started establishing a language and projecting their stories in written/glyphs texts/imagery, don’t need to be nomads anymore ‘caused they discovered the way to harvest and maintain their crops and started building stable housing (in most of the cases)…. I’m not saying here that our primitives ancestors where stupid, but it simply out to line to think that they and other groups around the globe, around the same time created such similar monumental construction and astronomical knowledge to simply build in the name of a god-like “creature” that comes from the heaven above, discarding the fact they had to use their limited resources around to do so (in most of the cases). The question is simple, as a group; if they just needed to survive and think in other things such as getting food and a stable place to subtend their community, why build a sacred temple, tomb or shrine for alluding “gods”? It’s like I tell Britney Spears to be the lead engineer of a construction group and to build me a Skyscraper without peeking in any books to look for knowledge and only to rely on her investigation to do it in her lifetime. Many of these groups are individuals that out of nowhere snapped these creations out of their sleeves, in such amount of time. And they all allude things with higher beings, most of them to be taller than us, giants, from heavens above. I mean 20-25 years to build a monumental tomb? Why so vigorously the need/act to build for after-life? Why build a temple or shrine to sacrifice in the name of another “Divine creature”, Why to think of build to align it with astronomical obsession, when we need to find food? Why to look up there, and not just make a shrine aligned to a possible mutated cow with two tails?

Here is an interesting link for a video related to the one you shared:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_M2zXPR9h3w



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La6Muerte66
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15:47:40 Mar 31 2009
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Revenous, your post has become nothing more than an argument from personal credulity. You don't believe that anyone could be so devoted to their gods as to build incredible monuments that mystify future generations. You know full well that faith in an imaginary god drives people to commit mass murder/suicide nowadays, to conquer and slaughter thousands of people, as well as build massive cathedrals and temples that took HUNDREDS of years to build.

You also say that comparing a man today with a civilization a few thousand years ago doesn't work, but the point is that yes, it does. It's only modern arrogance that makes us want to feel superior to ancient civilizations. We're not. We've just had more time to build off the knowledge of others. There's no advanced thinking involved in such basic engineering as that practiced by Mr. Wallington.



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Euterpe
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19:27:06 Mar 31 2009
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Alright, I didn't say that there wasn't life period. Just in our galaxy. Since it is highly improbable that there is another planet like ours in this galaxy, then it is highly improbable that we will be seeing any other life. At least we won't be seeing it until we develop the technology to travel 2.5 million light years in a split second and say 'howdy' to all the inhabitants of a planet that we haven't discovered yet. Do you think it could be awhile? I do. We're still trying to master technology that will cover the distance of the country. Let alone 2.5 million light years.
Do you know what a light year is? That means it takes light one whole year to cover the distance. Now imagine two million of them...



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La6Muerte66
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20:49:29 Mar 31 2009
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"At least we won't be seeing it until we develop the technology to travel 2.5 million light years in a split second and say 'howdy' to all the inhabitants of a planet that we haven't discovered yet."

Even without traveling 2.5 million light-years instantaneously, you have to remember that just from here to the center of the galaxy is about 25,000 light-years. Even at the speed of light, which modern physics tells us is most likely impossible to reach, it would take 25,000 years to reach it. That's longer than the recorded history of the human race. We have trouble comprehending a millennium, let alone 25. The scale involved in such distances makes the possibility of ever contacting whatever life may be out in the Universe seem very bleak. It's a little sad, but it is entirely likely that we'll never accomplish it.


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La6Muerte66
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Billions of years ahead seems rather unlikely, as that would be much closer to the beginning of the Universe. However, in the unlikely case that some much more advanced race did reside in a nearby galaxy, I think it at least the slightest bit likely that they would make some sort of contact and communication with us. That is, of course, provided they had a similar evolutionary development that conditioned them to seek to aid others, rather than destroy them.

If such a race had developed with a similar mindset to our own, then it is not too extreme to consider the idea that they would make contact with us and foster some kind of communication, leaving us with knowledge that would help us along. The idea that they would just observe us, make brief contact like the claimed visitors of the past, and then never return again seems incredibly unlikely. What would be the point of showing up, doing nothing (except building giant monuments with obviously no purpose), and then leaving? I'd think they'd either do one of two things: destroy our race and use the planet for their own purposes, or foster relations in order to establish a sort of communication to help the growth and development of both planets.



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Revenous
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Ok since everyone is pointing their view as what “ifs”..let us play the game of speculating the what and whys, setting aside proof and asking/answering in base of speculation...Ok well I would think in the contrary of previous posts as a specie that "had the chance and technology to travel on a voyage to discovering new life forms across the cosmos", would be very mature and thrilled as we are to discover anything out there, like "any mature well mannered human or say astronaut to put it in the related context, doesn’t just go killing all animal life around him because is different ", don’t you think as a vast/far technological possessors they would simply destroy a species that so far only could travel to their moon, like seriously what is the "threat“ in that, and what s to gain in that too?, if they would come here they would've like to stir something a little in the dawn of human civilization, inspire and leave, not control and manipulate or even come on vacations every once in a while, I guess they would like to see how is our nature as well as other species nature, study the psychology, biology the fast growing knowledge in technological advancement and culture, etc..I could see them as Grandfathers full of knowledge and mature to simply do something reckless, as humans mentality I could say we are still teens to just travel places out there, that’s why our technology is still young. As reactive as we are and our nature evolved tendencies to shoot what we don’t know in order to protect ourselves may hold the key of why they don’t just go in the “Big apple” and park there, is simple psychology of ourselves. Discarding the moment they appear to us all of the things that hold our world and civilization in control and order will fall crumbling, all religion would be simply dust from one day to the other, all theories would be simply garbage, humans will go in chaos like never before in a mist of confusion. I think that many years to travel across a galaxy takes to mature and study before touching grounds and influencing any possible rational life out there. The point here is to higher yourself as how you are in contrast of how your grandfather is..Different degree of knowledge, along that different degree of matureness to play in the game of life in this aspect.



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La6Muerte66
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12:58:26 Apr 01 2009
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Remember, however, you're talking about a "grandfather" race of sorts. I would think any civilization that is capable of surviving millions of years is above destroying a primitive alien race. Humans think like that, but it has always led us to failure. I would imagine a far more advanced race would have learned not to be selfish with knowledge, and would be more likely to share that knowledge with others to serve the greater good.



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La6Muerte66
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"Yet they may watching until the time has come that we are one planet and shown that we have grown up to give us their advances."

See I could go either way with that idea. Would not a more civilized and mature race seek to aid a planet in its struggle for peace, rather than watch it crumble and die? It would take an awfully sadistic and uncaring being to casually sit back and watch an entire planet kill itself, rather than teach them how they may overcome such petty differences and learn to work together. Civilization doesn't last so long without maturing as a group and learning what it takes for the group's survival. To be so uncaring towards a struggling outsider is such a primitive ideal.


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cadrewolf
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You would think that they would step in, yet on the other side of that arguement, would let us kill ourselves off and than have the planet for themselves.

We still are rationalizing the possibility that another race could infact exist on another planet or system. but thinking on this would would assume that we are definatly not alone in the vast frontiers of space.



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La6Muerte66
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It's just hypothetical wishful thinking, anyway.

One would think that if a civilization has survived for so much longer than us, it is because they have matured beyond the "command and conquer" mindset of earlier empires. Such a callous, thoughtless ideology is rather barbaric, and to this day hasn't survived the test of time. I imagine it would require a general consideration for others that maintains a healthy stability in large groups, ensuring that they will not fight over resources, religion, or other pointless political reasons. If such a mindset is what leads to longevity in a society, then is it not too much to think that they would gladly help a struggling "neighbor" along?



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cadrewolf
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00:15:33 Apr 02 2009
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I would concur to that post. We assuming our moral being is to help those less fortunate, yet this would also be on the rationing that the other civilization would in fact have the same or close morals in which we should have.

Yet depections of movies show to sides to this view, one we are aided along the way tell we become a moral society, and the second we are food for the other society in which now they think of us as livestock.

Rational thought would dictate that other advanced societies are further ip the ladder than what we are and infact at some point and time was at our point in their world.



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La6Muerte66
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01:46:26 Apr 02 2009
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And that's what I'm getting at. They would have been at our point, or at least in a similar situation at some point, assuming their development was in some way similar to our own, and thus would have learned what results from a conquest point of view. They would have been through the situations we're facing now, and would know how to get past them. Oligarchies, dictatorships, and the like don't last very long on a larger scale. It may be an all-encompassing fact that they simply cannot work. It's not about a superior race having similar morals to our more mature and civilized societies. It's about what works to sustain a society for periods of thousands of years. If such characteristics as philanthropy, generosity, and consideration for others are what are required for a long-lasting civilization, then regardless of the moral standpoint of said civilization, they would most likely cherish said values as the foundation of their society.



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dabbler
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02:02:57 Apr 02 2009
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Not rational thought Cadre, reasonable spectulation would be more consistent with such a topic. Anyone that says they have something to present that will reveal something phenomenal, has something to promote.. With a price tag.



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LivNdedGirl
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19:36:53 Apr 02 2009
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roswell new mexico and keckburgh PA have some proof of beings from other palnets and i believe that some of the cave drawings in some regions seem to prove they have had extratrestrial help in building their cultures up to what they were.... fire in the sky ... the movie based on a true story so many people claiming to have obducted and such its hard not to believe its possable if we were to believe we are the only beings in this vast universe i think we would be pretty full of our selves



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cadrewolf
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21:00:25 Apr 02 2009
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The Great UFO Hoax of 2009


http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/labnotes/archive/2009/04/01/the-great-ufo-hoax-of-2009.aspx



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La6Muerte66
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All of the major "cover-up" conspiracies are immediately claimed to be alien contact. Why is it so hard to believe that the military is/was testing something top secret? Why is everything aliens, or magic? Even if the Kecksburg craft was more than "nothing," why couldn't it be a bit of spy equipment sent up by the military? Civilians would be forbidden from taking pictures, examining the debris, and finding out too much about the incident. It strikes me as rather odd that the government would allow people to post all this "information" about alien encounters and military cover-ups if their intention was to keep it a secret. Does anyone consider the idea that it's more convenient for the government/military that the populace THINKS it's alien craft, thus drawing away the attention from what they really were up to?



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DecemberNemesis
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08:05:03 Apr 03 2009
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LaMuerte, I've been running across a theory in a few places now, that speculate the govt. is behind the "alien conspiracy theories".

Basically, the theory is that the govt. promotes the idea that they know more about aliens than they are telling, so that when people see something and panick, they'll go straight to the people they think know something and can protect them.

Which, makes alot of sense. If you want to prevent widespread panic over things that cant exactly be explained, you might throw some hints out there that you know a good deal about them, that you might even be allied with them.

And it does make a GREAT cover for anything else you might be up to while you're at it.



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Revenous
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08:45:05 Apr 03 2009
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Of course the government hides this kind of stuff, I mean seriously, if you have technological knowledge that keeps progressing and advancing wouldn’t you test/experiment with the variables, it’s really really ignorant to think they do not test such things as messing with DNA, compounds, mutations, genetic engineering and things of that sort, another thing is that they do not disclose it for general public, only little science fair stuffs like the jelly rat “a rat that glows in the dark”, things people would be amazed of the discovery, when deep inside there is more than what is shown, to prevent chaos this kinds of “cover up” are made, it’s obvious that if there’s a guy running saying he seen aliens no one will believe him without any proof, same thing that happens to proclaiming “vampires” in this site, why would they change the story if it has worked for all this years. Even if we know they have things hidden in the closets no one can do anything about it, other than speculate or ge tin a load of trouble gettin proofs in restricted areas.



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cadrewolf
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I do not doubt that alot of the cover-ups are some what related to the goverment, For they in their terms do not want mass hysteria on the pubnlic or the technoligy that they have created to be one up on someone else.

Consperies of therios is all. speculation on the bases that if it is not aliens than our own goverment or certain aspects of this are covering it up.

Yet than why has the myth of aliens been so promanant and the similiar aspects of ships and figures told by people hundreds of miles away and never met be the same accounts. puzzling thoughts yet settled.

And as for the vampires on this site. Theirs other posts that this is covered in.



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Revenous
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~Cradle~
I was referring to the alien, and that the government may use the psychology at hand to work with witnesses and those who believe such things happening underground, And as example I said: if a guy comes out from "Area 51" and write a book about what he saw in "there". it will only be reminisce of the reader superstition and speculation because he can’t prove all that he is writing and that helps the "cover up" no one can really prove/disprove such things it will remain on sheer personal speculation, I brought the proclaiming vampires as example of how those who denies the "existence" of such nature, can't really prove/disprove that is real in this site or out there, unless they catch one and test him/her. Otherwise they will be denying such things and flagging them as sensationalist/attention seekers.



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cadrewolf
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17:18:15 Apr 03 2009
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~Revenous

Understandable, yet I ponder why workers from this so called area 51 would infact leak material about aliens out to the public, if not for the fact to keep the alien myth going. or is this actual fact on life from the planets.

if it is leaked than why or for what purpose, The goverment claims that no area does exist, yet i have been around their been to the little bar righ ouside of the base. Seen the signs, "people will be shot on site".

Understandable that something is going on, whatever it is , new bio warfare or new technoligy.just questions that seem to linger in those who speculate other ideas of fiction.



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10241024
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18:23:22 Apr 03 2009
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I had not thought about humans being genetically engineered. Perhaps one of our deities were actually an advanced race that engineered us in their likeness.

There are some theories that life started on earth due to amino acids brought to Earth by meteors or comets that developed into the first single cell life forms. That may mean we actually did come to earth from elsewhere in the universe.



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10241024
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As far as the astonomy of ancient cultures goes. I think it would be arogant of us to believe that ancient cultures weren't as smart as we are. There is no reason to think that they didn't figure out things as well as we have.

If we look at the technology of the ancients, it was very advanced in many cultures. They may not have had computers, but they had metal working, astronomy, agriculture, art.

Imagine what it would take for you to do things that we find simple, if you didn't have a body of technology surrounding you. How does one make leather? How do you figure out that if you heat metal you can mold it into useful items? How do you actually heat metal so that it melts, what do you hold it in while it is melting?

Even the thought of Earth being the center of the Universe is really a middle ages Western Europe concept. Each culture had it's own believe on the position of the Earth based on their own understanding of the Cosmos.



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Chococat
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06:27:59 Apr 04 2009
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there either was a visit of extra terrestrials on all continents around the same time or maybe the commonalities are because all the continents used to be one super-continent.
now if you factor in Atlantis and then the possibility of alternative realities, other dimensions and then things get really freaky



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DecemberNemesis
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09:35:12 Apr 04 2009
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Cadrewolf...

"Yet than why has the myth of aliens been so promanant and the similiar aspects of ships and figures told by people hundreds of miles away and never met be the same accounts. puzzling thoughts yet settled."

Alot of the various paranormal events involves bright flashing lights...anyone ever consider the possibility that people might be getting deliberately hypnotized? If you wanted to move a group of people out of one area for the night, and into another, have a few people see some UFOs there...misdirection, something else that seems to pop up alot in paranormal sightings.



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dabbler
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02:09:17 Apr 05 2009
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Exercising Creative Concepts relating to time travel I'd sci-fi spectulation, at best, all the pseudo, and junk sciences extrapulate, and hyperboyle actual science to attach to their hack " research".

I am content with such writing as Robert Forward, Dragons Egg, a very well written book. But when I browes tabloid journalist books I consistently see
grafting from distant classic sci-fi then I see alien visitor buffs rehash debunked, or cases that disolved under declassification disclosure.

Thats why I say that even if the government came forward with alien crafts, people would gloss over the matter to the next big sensational " unknown- possibility- .



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ziddicous
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05:50:06 Apr 07 2009
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maybe we should be asking if we are more alone in the universe, or on our planet.
i feel alone most of the time, and yet i still feel that there is much around me that i don't see, hear, ext... i don't notice anything most of the time, but when i really need support i can feel that i am doing exactly what i should be doing at that time. the "spirits within" make it very easy for me to understand that everything is interconnected. we are all one together, and yet seperate to maintain diversity. but we need to find a better way to stay connected, and when that happens we will find that we are not as alone as we thought. when we stop and listen we will start to notice the signs that let us know that there is always going to be more out there.



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bat7777
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good point z... i think the thread has gotten out of wack because we are not focusing on life in the universe...

as i implied in posts way above in the thread - i think yes absolutely there is some form of life elsewhere. statistics point to its probability.

but as far as aliens among us... i think that is an illogical and scientific DREAM. i think it is the same line of logic that makes people want to believe in vampires, zeus, the immaculate conception, etc - A INNATE HUMAN WEAKNESS that is akin to our fear of impermanence. so we invent -we create myths and stories of fantastic beings that are extremely powerful... immortal, able to fly, able to feed off blood and change into mist, able to defy the laws of physics and logic, etc.

if aliens were among us, they would in my opinion not "waiting for the right time" to emerge - that's so book of revelation/faith on human prophecy-like.

if aliens were among us i think they would either get all forbidden planet and tell us to get our shit together or they'd get all independence day and decide that we were in need of extermination.

if there was a group of aliens advanced enough to visit us their technology would be beyond our comprehension - why would they waste their time with such a hostile, destructive and petty bunch of ants like us??? why would they either not leave us to our "civilization" of wal-mart, the internet, organized religion, mtv, racism, materialism, murder, environmental destruction, etc etc. i think they would be LAUGHING at us if they even could find our self absorbtion and self destruction humorful. but i think the reaction would be avoidance ("forget these ones...they are too primitive") or to simply take our resources and move on.

you're telling me they're living on the dark side of the moon? or on atlantis (huh? - SEAFLOOR MAPPING - look into it folks!) believing in aliens among us is about as thought of as believing in the easter bunny!!!

self-centered human belief and scientific reality are not lined up... sorry it just doen't work that way.

life elsewhere - likely.
aliens here on earth - read more than goofy conspiracy articles off of the web of deceit!



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Revenous
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21:56:04 Apr 21 2009
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HATFIELD, England – In the search for Earth-like planets, astronomers zeroed in Tuesday on two places that look awfully familiar to home. One is close to the right size. The other is in the right place.
European researchers said they not only found the smallest exoplanet ever, called Gliese 581 e, but realized that a neighboring planet discovered earlier, Gliese 581 d, was in the prime habitable zone for potential life.
"The Holy Grail of current exoplanet research is the detection of a rocky, Earth-like planet in the 'habitable zone,'" said Michel Mayor, an astrophysicist at Geneva University in Switzerland.
An American expert called the discovery of the tiny planet "extraordinary."
Gliese 581 e is only 1.9 times the size of Earth — while previous planets found outside our solar system are closer to the size of massive Jupiter, which NASA says could swallow more than 1,000 Earths.
Gliese 581 e sits close to the nearest star, making it too hot to support life. Still, Mayor said its discovery in a solar system 20 1/2 light years away from Earth is a "good example that we are progressing in the detection of Earth-like planets."
Scientists also discovered that the orbit of planet Gliese 581 d, which was found in 2007, was located within the "habitable zone" — a region around a sun-like star that would allow water to be liquid on the planet's surface, Mayor said.
He spoke at a news conference Tuesday at the University of Hertfordshire during the European Week of Astronomy and Space Science.
Gliese 581 d is probably too large to be made only of rocky material, fellow astronomer and team member Stephane Udry said, adding it was possible the planet had a "large and deep" ocean.
"It is the first serious 'water-world' candidate," Udry said.
Mayor's main planet-hunting competitor, Geoff Marcy of the University of California, Berkeley, praised the find of Gliese 581 e as "the most exciting discovery" so far of exoplanets — planets outside our solar system.
"This discovery is absolutely extraordinary," Marcy told The Associated Press by e-mail, calling the discoveries a significant step in the search for Earth-like planets.
While Gliese 581 e is too hot for life "it shows that nature makes such small planets, probably in large numbers," Marcy commented. "Surely the galaxy contains tens of billions of planets like the small, Earth-mass one announced here."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090421/ap_on_sc/eu_britain_new_planet



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cadrewolf
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16:54:34 Apr 22 2009
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True, yet if we imagine tha life was brought here from space. not aliens but through micrscopic cells on atriods. do we honestly think that earth is the only planet in which life could be formed and evolve.

we know life here evolves every year, so would we not interpet that life evolving on some ditant solar sytem or planet, yet looking and acting on the realms in which they develop.



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Magic25UK
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02:54:56 Apr 23 2009
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I think the odds is very small to find life on another planet. There are over a 100 billion galaxies out there, that contains billions of stars, and there must be other sun like stars that have planets orbiting them. When you use Drakes equation, it's probable that there is life out there. All we can do is guess if there's life out there, and we need evidence to prove it. We must search for earth like planets which is in the habitable zone, so it's just right for water to exist as a liquid, and we need the organic building blocks of life.



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cadrewolf
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16:35:09 Apr 23 2009
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Eviedince is there, microscopic remeniants in soil samples, Just because we imagine that a species needs oxygen or light, is a false assumption. We take that belief on our own human existance.

Life forming on another planet, would adapt to that planet and its enviroment. And surely would evolve in stages much like life here on this planet. so breathing or gravity of similarities to us may be not there.



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Magic25UK
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23:24:33 Apr 24 2009
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Yes true, there could be differnet species out there on other planets, and other galaxies could have a different collection of stars. Out of billions of galaxies it must be probable for life on other planets. I heard that you could have silicon base life forms on other planets.

The Kepler space telescope was launched not long ago to search for dwarf stars with planets, it will be interesting to find Earth like planets orbiting sun like stars.



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cadrewolf
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17:18:31 Apr 27 2009
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I think revenous hit the spot. the lack of proof is our own lack of scientific realms to travel not only in our system but reach other star systems.

The concept alone would in all realms be like our solar sytem, we thought for years ours was the only one, eveidence proves now many systems make up the universe. so speculation of life could be fact.



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Zom
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I honestly think that the only way of life outside of our planet is from the use of Dimensional holes through time and space that could only support "life as we know it". Ohh! I can hear the thoughts of the many thinking about "The Bermuda Triangle". There are reports of many more of "thease triangles" in other places of the world.



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Clementia92
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06:21:23 Jun 01 2009
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As everyone has said, there is no proof of anything but there is some proof of watching our race mature and evolve on this planet so we know that there is a great chance we started on this planet. After saying that though I would like to say that I think it could be very possible for there to be life in another galaxy on another planet. Is it exactly like our life, not exactly, no one knows because we haven't found it yet, but if we are here why wouldn't others be somewhere else.



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IlLuminaria
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Nice read. The debate brought many good points from both sides, although I don't discard the possibilities of such claims before finding the knowledge through in field research( in regards of all the data applied in the whole discussion makes you keep reading furtherlong). Ancient technology does bring to question many mysteries such as those presented in this thread description, the only way to broaden is to actually mix with documented seekers in fields like archaeology.



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thekevil
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06:16:58 Jul 28 2009
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I can't believe that we are alone in the universe, I say this because when they tested the samples of rock collected from Mars there were bacteria which is a life-form found in the soil collected.



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S0RVENA
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06:35:22 Jul 28 2009
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I've always been interested in the Nephilim. I know they are written down as being responsible for mating with human women and creating 'hybrid humans'. Sure it all sounds pretty sci-fi but why not? Here you have people claiming to be stronger, faster, more intelligent, agile, more charming.....perhaps all traits falling down from our angelic friends from space? Possible. I have dove into research about these 'Giants' and apparently they have been around for quite some time and perhaps still around to this day, some believe. To think we're the only one's in the universe is very obsurd.



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Lightningsking
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14:14:27 Jul 28 2009
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What would make us think we are the only intelligent form of life in teh universe. Its a vast universe that we have only touched the edges of exploring. I believe that ancient civilazation have had visits from aliens and that is how they have learned alot of what they did.



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10241024
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15:30:11 Jul 28 2009
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There are some good posts here on this topic, but in general:

We shouldn't assume that previcous civilizations were less capable than ours or had technologies that we don't. It is more likely they used clever means to achieve their goals then help from extraterrestials. Just because I can't figure out how someone would build one of the pyramids doesn't mean that someone else couldn't figure it out.

The universe is vast with quite a few galaxies, stars and planets. We have no proof that there is no other life in the universe, but we also don't have any reason to beleive that this is the sole planet on which life started. If there is life elsewhere, it may have developed under very different conditions and may not be carbon based. We probably wouldn't even recognize it if we saw it.

Either way, we would have to take a leap of faith to believe that we have been visted by extraterrestials that have taken an interest in us.

Non the less, it is fun to read the books and watch the shows on the History channel.



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ThothLestat
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I don't think ancient civilizations were visited and 'enlightened' by aliens. It seems incongruous that an intelligent race of aliens would teach man about fire, written language, and pyramids, and then NOT also tell him that the world was round.



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IlLuminaria
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This is the most authentic approach out there for the general public limited clearance of knowledge, I could say all in all-that is very accurate in the presented & alleged cases, by all means; do not take my word as any factible source; nor I intend to receive your acceptance over the matters I brought, is a window for your interpretations as everything else, I would like to share that the inquiry done to a witnessed at 1:39:00 in elapsed time, pay attention it shed more light to many things admired within this website and might clear a little about mythological or mystical idealization of what is not clearly all confabulation through out history.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vyVe-6YdUk



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OnyxBruxsa
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04:21:00 Aug 13 2009
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nice link.. i enjoyed it thank you for sharing



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Artume
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06:08:03 Aug 13 2009
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Hmmm... Gets me to thinking once more, yeah there's that work again. Ahh, to think.

This documetary is a speculative representation of how it all began. Bare in mind that it is based on conspiracy theories, with facts mix with fiction.

Use your best judgement.

It is a 25 part series, each segment lasting approximately 10 minutes each.




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imavampyreprincess
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09:57:08 Aug 13 2009
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There is an awful lot of space out there going to waste if we are.



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venumstings
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10:02:03 Aug 13 2009
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After Worldly War few thousand years ago, Human and human universities has started destroying the every means of human development coz they knew that keeping this in tact will destroy the humsn and will clash other species in the universe. The Rama Age the human was at the best equallant to bests in the universe. and then sudddenly the fall of human figting among themselves. even after this the aliens shown soully goodness by saving few human of species.

My openion that there exist the species far that most advance and took edge over human level species millions of years ago.

human is not alone. human kindergarten is very late...



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venumstings
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10:14:46 Aug 13 2009
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This speculation is on the basis of available ancient records of human species in the form of archeological art pics and the verbal tradition from thousands of years, the research of huruppa and mohen jo daro civilization and its co-relation with existing oldest civilization hindu and hinduism.

The literature of hinduism and its scientific examination to the truth if science existing in hindu region.

The vayu yana (air vehicle) capable of soaring into antariksha (space) and submersible vehicle, NUCLEAR missile droids (Shakti Ban) capable of universal catastrophe on the levels of galaxies PROVES IT WAS NOT ON MYTH BUT IT WAS ON THE BASIS OF TRUTH WHAT PROVES TODAYS SCIENCE.

SO THIS SPECULATION IS LEADING TO ESTEBLISH THE HYPOTHECATION IN MY MIND THAT WE WERE ONCE RICH OF SCIENCE AND NOW WE ARE JUST DUMP OF THE HISTORY.



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venumstings
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10:37:03 Aug 13 2009
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For kind info,

Human is stepped to produce flying saucer and this technique will start changing present techniques within 20-30 years. USA Japan probably Russia and definitely India is working on this space craft.

The first model will be fire burst saucer which have a lot o cumbustion chambers that will gurn fuel with the help of oxygen in the air (will not carry the oxygen load).

Second generation is the in the sphere fusion of helium and water to seperate hydrogen in the air and using the oxygen of the air and later when crossed the orbit of the earth, will use sun ray as fuel


third will be laser tech + sun ray

the mentioned countries are very advanced in this tech and india probably going to test its re-entry vehicle made on the basis of using oxygen of the air (test will be in 2010). the space craft speed will be mac 7 and will cross mac 10 by second test and third test it will be the cheapest cosmonaut carrier in the world.

This all would not be possible if there was no clearance of few matters from usa and russia. still the shadows of cold war is on the relation of nations.

but after this we can say the human is standing again to fly in the space as our ancient peepal did. the first leader of this tech ussr and usa did great job in this field.

still human could not find the location of other culture in the universe.

just the latest acievement in this field is only that above 60 miles of the earth surface, Indian scientists found micro culture that suposed dropped from space. this means the space too is capable of forming culture if suitable planet is there in the universe. this is only the open announcement from any govt. about far existing life cultures.



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IlLuminaria
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19:37:37 Aug 13 2009
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???



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DarkRedemption
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19:52:47 Aug 13 2009
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The universe is a big place so i would say their is a chance of other life.However i don't believe aliens had anything to do with the pyramids or any other event on earth.



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VR System
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19:52:47 Aug 13 2009
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This thread has been automatically closed for length.



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