When a person, or group singles out another that is referred to as bullying, or persecution.
Often the target of such individuals are those with fringe Ideals, accentuated by fringe appearance.
Everyone knows the mantra of tolerance.
But my question is. Why are those "on the fringe" so critical, and intolerant of mainstream (mundane) society?
Why are some more comfortable around their own, and others insist on imposing themselves on "mundane" social circles?
What is the middle ground?
Is it necessary for everyone to embrace you for your adopted/proclaimed ideo-social identity?
Or is it enough to be simple accepted, and realize that some are indifferent to your ideo-social identity?
To keep this thread on topic, please post your own thoughts prior to responding to the post of others
some may have been bullied in their younger years or abused at home. In turn they do not know any other way other than to bully others in some form.
The herd mentality and to keep it short I have found that most people who reside on the "fringe" or what I like to call them, the lefty loones and the extreme right wack jobs. (technical terms) seem to be the most intolerant.
Of course there are other fringe inhabiters but they seem more amiable.
(way to stir the pot)
I was bullied, badstyle.
“Freak!”
I am the freak…
sitting doodling
away, rambles
and drawing, an
outlet for creativity,
that just has to be
expressed.
I am the freak, pouring
out idea’s ideas and
thoughts in a rapide fire
burst of energy, that just
must be set down, or…
depressed I will be.
I am the freak, content
to be alone, whilst hating
loneliness and lacking trust,
seeking the company of
others, whilst hating a crowd.
I am The Freak.
The "different" and non-conforming people were called that for a reason. Tolerace is a bit subjective but for this statement I'll define it as "embracing something". So to "tolerate" the mainstream (ideals, behaviors, norms, etc.) would be contradictory to how conformists chose to be in the first place. For a variety of reasons some people prefer to go against the grain. Some people prefer to sleep with the flock, others want to run with the wolves.
I think it probably boils down to all the different reasons the person has for 'being different' and that individual's personality as well. For some people, being different might have earned them a group who share the same sentiments and have given a form of sanctuary for their disquietude. That alone might suffice as some form of comfort for them and their needs are satisfied as simple as that.
For others, their 'non-conformity' might stem from a more complex reason; a need extending beyond the person's solitary or basic need. I can't think of anything else at the moment but this concrete example:
A person let's call him X is working in a government institution which has embraced political corruption in the system (i.e. accepting bribes, extortion, etc.). Albeit covert, the practice is very much accepted and thrives. X thinks the culture is contrary to his own personal convictions and decides to go against the prevailing practice. It not only earns him his co-workers' stigma but threatens his very convictions. If he wants to continue working there, he should either tolerate people mocking him for being different or he takes steps to promote radical action; steps as far-reaching as organizational restructuring. X is dissatisfied with the whole system and has to do something about it so he won't be consumed and corrupted and this is where 'imposing oneself to mundane social circles' come into play.
The middle ground, I think, is doing, behaving and deciding without going beyond certain boundaries (personal, legal, ethical, etc.) and not endangering anyone; but you already know that.
I think tolerance is the bare minimum here. Tolerance in a sense that, I don't expect everyone to understand my lifestyle or ideals or beliefs but I don't want people to persecute me for my differences either. Simply put: If they can't accept it, then shut up. But that's just me, I'm not much of a people-person so I think that's one reason. Others might have their own reasons and preferences.
*Dammit. Edit my first answers:
Why are those "on the fringe" so critical, and intolerant of mainstream (mundane) society?
The "different" and non-conforming people were called that for a reason. Tolerance is a bit subjective but for this statement I'll define it as "embracing something". So to "tolerate" the mainstream (ideals, behaviors, norms, etc.) would be contradictory to how non-conformists chose to be in the first place. For a variety of reasons some people prefer to go against the grain. Some people prefer to sleep with the flock, others want to run with the wolves.
That explains non-conformity what of the rest?
the so called social re-builders seem the most intolerant of any who disagree.
Loudly exclaiming their displeasure at any who suggest that there is another opinion. and becoming quite nasty in most cases.
Yet all the while accusing the other of said behavior.
How disingenuous.
I find that when a minority group crosses the threshhold, into wanting the general populus to celibrate their sub-culture, or socio-identity.
When as mentioned the radicals, behave in a manner that draws critism (even from those that share their ideal).
Tolerance of a persons belief is a civilized default, however actions of individuals (especially when those actions are passive, or overtly aggressive, or disturbing is not to be tolerated. Shrouding ones behaviour (bigotry) in sactamomious garb is .. well chicken sh**.
When a person claims to be ostrasized for their ideals, identity, or belief often it becomes evident that they are confrontational regarding those who simple don't share their beliefs, or who have their own beliefs. Implying that all who don't subscribe to an ideal are ignorant is a sign of reverse idealogical
bigotry.
Bullying is an exercise in power, usually done with an audience. School yard bullies don't get off on private confrontations as much as they do when a crowd (even if it's only one other person) is present.
The bullying is not usually regarding ideals, but an exploration of the range of power. That's why the bully picks an easy target: the loner, the outsider, the weak and unprotected.
In some ways, our current culture could be labeled "The Rise of Bullies." Our media provides a giant audience for these bullies. And it's not just the pundits. Sometimes I read the commentary on news stories and the vile, putrid, hate-filled posts predominate.
Bullies can now grandstand. They've given rise to the teabaggers, and probably, hopefully, some counter-insurgency groups.
I'm not clever enough to project into the future as to what the next stage will be, what the bullies will engender, but our culture and the world is more factionalized than ever. I don't see my precious area gray area, where diplomacy reigns and where a kid can stick a flower in the barrel of a National Guard's rifle.
In China, and other areas of the world, they'd get blasted (yes, I know, it happened here). I can happen again here. Who is it that touted the Silent Majority in those flower child days? Nixon?
Not sure they're the majority, but the bullies are no longer silent, and their stir to action is the same as on the playground - one mean person and a bunch of twits egging the bully on with their silence.
I often question the intent of individuals who insist people keep an open mind to their ideals, would it be likely for them to be open to the idea that their beliefs are based on myth, and speculation?
In politics each side wants the other to give ground, people not engaged are pestered by both sides.
When a person invest so much into their ideo-social identity, they are hostile to any who present their reasons to not be compelled to subscribe to that ideal.
Not saying "Your wrong to believe X"
But, saying, "I am not compelled to believe X"
So the other individual then takes the stand
"You are wrong for not believing in X"
Saying
"People who believe in X, are deluded."
is bordering on bigotry.
Even people with shared beliefs are apt to say
"People who don't believe X like my faction interprets X, then they are not worthy of X."
I just never figured why people are so desperate to have others respond to their personal claims of experiences alledged to relate to X.
It is easy to get lost in mainstream social circles. Perhaps a bully knows this, and casts down on someone that broke out of the mundane.
Also, is being on the fringe a is another form of attention getting. By now, most should know that if you are outside of the mainstream, you are open for attack. I partially want to say that the Bullied will sometimes wish upon themselves the bulling. But I will also be fair and say that this isn't always the case.
I was bullied when i was younger for many different reasons. I tended to stay in the library most of my time as well as with or near friends. It was never easy
many stereotype me or stereotype in general and therefore start bullying those who are "less fortunate" or in one group or whatever the case may be.
Society has based an idea on certain behaviors, actions, looks, and expectations.
This is what we are taught to be normal
Some do not conform to these ideals, and are labeled as being weird almost immediately.
They do not follow society, so they are not accepted.
But in truth, there is no such thing as normal.
Only opinions
One who bullies most likely has seen it at home.
When my son was in Karate tounaments
I could not believe some parents yelling get him
kick him and even kill him.
Other's then get caught up in the negativity.
It is sad when kids are afraid to go to school, and even end up
killing themselves.
Then you have the kids fighting on Youtube.
I believe alot of it has to do with alot of anger
some children hold inside for the abusive language
they themselves receive at home.
If one kid starts friends become follwers.
There is many variables about bullying.
Historically, is it not far more the case that the majority bullies the minority than the other way around?
Whether the difference be race, religion, sexual preferences, sexual practices, political views, etc. ... is it not almost always that those holding views contrary to the majority find themselves far more often targeted for ridicule and persecution (i.e., bulling) than the reverse?
Here in VR, do we not experience far less acceptance and far more ridicule and persecution from the vast majority in Society for being part of a "fringe" element? And, to continue this further, are not those of us here in VR who are in the minority for having unpopular views likewise not accepted by the VR majority?
I know that as one who holds quite a different view of the Vampire than the vast majority here, I have most certainly found this to be the case.
Thus, I don't believe it is the "fringe" minority who tends to bully others but, instead, the majority in Society.
- Upir'
I'm always curious, why those who cry loudest for tolerance are often the least toerant of all.
Those that choose to stand out from others have every right to do so. Who defines what is normal or right? Society defines normal but does that mean everyone has to follow what society believes? If every person conformed to societal ways, where would we be? WIthout creativity and thinking out the box and being who you are, the world wouldnt have the technology and advances that we have today.
Bullying is a learned behavior. Whether from their parents, peers, or associates. Some people that bully others do it as a way to hide their own self esteem issues or insecurites. What they fail to realize is that the person or people they bully can suffer from long lasting effects or in some extreme cases they committ suicide. Bullying is something that never goes away and we as a society need to step up to the plate and let them know what they are doing isn't right.
Well stated, WinterRaven. And especially true when characterizing bullying by children against other children.
Where Society as a whole is concerned, I find that bullying among adults is usually more about intimidating and even violent reactions to perceived threats by minorities.
Whether such be the horrific reactions of the Nazis to Jews, the KKK to Blacks, those of one religion against those of another, etc., all usually have as their root cause the immature and usually fearful reactions the majority has to minority groups, views, lifestyle choices, religion, race, or actions, that it perceives as a threat against the status quo or their own vested self interests.
- Upir'
Well stated elisbeth.
WW posted
' I partially want to say that the Bullied will sometimes wish upon themselves the bulling. But I will also be fair and say that this isn't always the case."
When a person lacks social skills, they are apt to compensate with something to attract attention.. usually sympathetic attention.
Here on VR I have seen evidence of individual young females claiming to be harassed by unwanted sexual harassment, I have seen this on Myspaz as well.. what is lacking is the Log (copy) of the alleged message.
So it is reasonable to conclude that the individual is utilizing a serious issue to garden for sympathy.
When I hear a person adopt a new belief every other week, and even splice together various ideals, I can not help but conclude that they are spreading their lot.
It is not uncommon for them to incite others who are more emerged in the ideals they gratuitously adopt.
Sadly it is often these individuals that incite people that are usually indifferent people with such ideals, or beliefs.
As mentioned above, When a person wants the pedestal because they claim to be so gifted "with divine physical experience" then it is reasonable to expect that people (even people that may have core beliefs in common) will outrught question, or be cynical of those
claims.
For a person who is questioned, it is irrational to cry persecution to others.
Just being what, or who you are should be enough.
It is what people see in a persons candor, that exemplifies their belief, or ideals.
There are some matters that are exclusive to gathers of like minded individuals, and their are acceptable ways to share ones beliefs with others.
Yep Dabs and Upir are always bullying me but I,m tougher than I look, alot of my mates have fallen by the wayside though.Grrr....whimps!
I don't think individuals that are anti-social compensate their ideals to something out of the social itself but project their intentions in the betterment or detriment of social interaction. In history and psychology often this groups of anti-socials are the ones who arises with more knowledge to perceive reality in the way humans behave, sometimes nerds find more solace in the mathematics and science than in any other social activity in order to compensate that space of society that has to be alienated from, the change. In all degrees people that are deemed as Anti-social are the ones likely to be highlighted as different, looney, radical, too imaginative, too creative, crazy, and in essence are the one who shift the maturity of the group by manifesting a judgement that has to be challenged and embraced one way or the other (unless you get to the degree of involving fascism once again). This anti-socials adopt a scheme, one are more hateful to the social pressure they came from by the experiences and programming in the development and their decisions to mirror it or compensate it with their free will, some opt to be killers showing anti-social mechanics and other simply look for a way to change the irrational concepts a society projects. In essence this bullied ones are the ones that create more impact in the way you experience life today than the rest living with the social machine, the most influential figures of the time and deemed crazy in the past, look as Leonardo da Vinci work and understand why he mask his belief system in the social environment or the freemasons work in the Catholic Cathedrals & Temples.
"Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people."
-Eleanor Roosevelt
"A question that sometimes drives me hazy: am I or are the others crazy?"
-Albert Einstein
Thank you Firmament for bringing the conversation back to conversation, I apologize for going off subject with a political sounding post. chalk it up to frustration and a bit too much ego..
Back to your original question...A bully seeks to elevate his or herself by diminishing another. this can be accomplished in many ways, but usually by
A. Physically attacking and or subduing.
B. Attempting to overpower with a profusion of words as to smother another individual and deter them from speaking or standing up for themselves.
There are more subtile forms of course.
The majority of those who bully are Insecure with a low self Image and a need to feel superior to those around them.
Some are repeating behavior inflicted upon them.
In an effort to escape being a victim they themselves become the bully.
I have endured bullying and have been guilty of it as well.
Most honest people will admit to it.
It is a mirror of their own fear and psyche, If you show you are strong, other will not see you as weak, when I was a young one, I had many bullies over my times (4 -8 grade) I was scared of school, for interacting I could say I cried every time it was the first day of school hehe from 4-6 grade, I was deemed probably as a loser back then and now, and it was mostly because of my resistant to behave like others or to do things other liked to do, to me it was kind of childish so I was mostly alone, and this "popular" kids were always bullying on me, I knew I had to create a mask in order to survive and cope with school, so in 9th grade I wore the mask, the funny and goofy mask and find a shelter with the metal kids, in time I merged this "popular" with the "losers" and would you find amusing that to the light of the day my high school graduate "friends" & individual still see me as this cool, funny guy (I became superficial friends with the bullies and I knew how to change that part in them when we were in the same class rooms) and I smile and say wow this is how easy it was to create an illusion on someone (the whole school that revolved around perceiving me), people talk to me straight now and ask me, how did you become so bright you were so sterile ( lacking in stimulating emotional or intellectual quality) and saying how much I changed, and I respond I never changed I was just hiding from that fear of creating myself into something i didn't want to on this present- future now. If i were to tolerate all the things they done to other kids that grew up in the same school, most of them are now dysfunctional members of society with much hate in their interaction with other people, other still looking for ways to bash in the face of others what things they have done or accomplish and that the others have not (trying to impress something they never could when young "weight, appearance, jobs, accomplishments, material things, etc..").
People who do not conform can sometimes make positive changes in society.
AN, what is bullying?
How do you expect to impose extraordinary claims, and not be questioned?
You post:
'Yep Dabs and Upir are always bullying me but I,m tougher than I look, alot of my mates have fallen by the wayside though.Grrr....whimps!'
So what you are doing is attempting to impress others with extraordinary claims. So why are you placing the burden on you "mates" to take sides with you.. ?
That is an illustration of my point, and here you are not posting anything relative to the thread, yet airing personal indignation.
Upir, and I foil your grandiose claims, and that ticks you off, so you lash out, and imply that there are others who are suppressed from "having your back".
Your persecution complex is transparent.
I think Alie was speaking tongue-in-cheek, Dab. A little levity and self-mockery is how I took it.
This is from PostSecret. Wish all bullies had self-realization:

When a person makes extraordinary claims, and veils them as opinions, in an attempt to fortress their lack of evidence, or support of any kind it is expected that they will incite people to inquire as to the legitimacy of their claim.
It is a Bullsh** maneuver to retreat into the ranks of belief, when it is actually conviction (by evidence) that the claim is based on.
it becomes clear with some people that they are seeking to impress others with unfounded, and progressively extravagant claims.
How do such people not expect to be subjected to criticism, and scrutiny. Is it their intention to only be catered to?
perhaps they impress their peers with such vague claims, and they become bitter when the same pitch fails to impress rational people (believers, and nonbelievers alike.)
that is what happened with me when i was in school that is why i don't just many people when i first meet them
.. likewise Dabbler, I feel I must take Firmament to task: my experience was similar to his.. and, I wore the male sullen macho mask from 16 onwards, but I was not made stronger through any of it.. my strength came, when none of it mattered anymore.. and that took half a lifetime. Now, I HATE [right word] bullies of any kind.
Which is why I am so out spoken against people who declare themselves
to be persicuted, when it is obviously more their behavior toward others that
result in confrontation.
Not everyone who declares themselves a victim are actually victims.
When I see people stoop so low calling people who are not compelled to
be as entuisastic as they are about an ideal ignorant bashers then I feel real victims are trivialized.
Stating disbelief, and and presenting reasoning why I don't accept a persons belief, or claim is in no way bullying.
When I see believers scoff at, and insult anyone who
doesn't accept their personal interpretation of an ideal
I see an example of fanaticism.. people impossing on others, as if to say," Thats the way it is, so just get used to it."
When in all actually those who subscribe ( to various degrees) are a minority.
People with convictions rather then faith arrbitrarilly umbrella under beliefs, another chicken sh** manuever.
Until people with moderate beliefs, and core ( unembellished) ideals police their ranks they will have to deal with fall-out, especially when Sh** Stirrers
muck outsiders up, and then retreat into the fold.
social groups tend to "norm" members. there are social standards, including both behavior and appearance that a group attempts to impose on each other so that they can identify outsiders and keep them out.
look at tribes...each has its on customs. whether that tribe is bantu or zulu , comanche or souix, 1890 victorian england, or 1890 japan.
each of these groups had a certain look and action set that was considered acceptable, and would work to expel those that didnt conform, including violence.
is it a good thing? a bad thing? its not about good or bad, its just the way things are.
if you find you feel uncomfortable around a group, whether they are the young conservatives for cthtulhu, or the gay and lesbian whale hating national rifle association caucus, there will always be some group that someone is uncomfortable with. some groups are politically incorrect to feel uncomfortable around...some groups are politically VERY correct to feel uncomfortable about.
think about it...there are groups is is "ok" to feel uncomfortable around...but it depends on the group you consider yourself a part of.
is there actually anyone here that can honestly say that they feel comfortable around ANY group they might ever find themselves around?
really?
~W~
Impression is that one thinks they are better than someone else on views or show of strength we all have in some times of our lives seen these bullies in force. yet we move on and rationalize our life and not what some bully thinks on ideas or impressive manly behavior or childish acts, like who they think they impress. (themselves only)
I find most ppl who conduct bulling do it to stand out in a crowd and most of the time it is a person who is a loner and as such can be easierly picked on for wat ever reason. Generally it because the person is better at something and the person being the bully needs to downgrade that person.
To disagree with another is not bullying. Most groups are acting defensively to others disparaging their belief's. It is never acceptable to bully, yet defending one's self or group is acceptable as provided for in statute, even using physical force to do so.
.. bullying as defiined by a victim of it .. me: is an abuse of power, often to someone who finds themselves unable to fight back..
I see people that hold to ideas shared by a minority adopting an us, vs them mentality. In such cases, when others tire of their spouting insults (veiled or obvious) toward those that are not interested in their ideals.
That is bullying. Calling people ignorant, especial when ignorance implies lack of education, and most here who have
fringe convictions, and beliefs offer nothing to educate curious people.
any one who targets an individual without provocation is a bully, but when someone pushes the proverbial envelope, and suffer reaction, they have nothing to cry about, and they do a disservice to people really victimized by bigotry.
Distilling the general populations concern.
The sub culture that cried wolf..
I have heard people out right declare that they are feared by society.. just because they are fringe in appearance, I see more indifference toward the fringe, yet I still see people adopt more audacious appearances.
i agree completely with dab
we have seen time and time again a minority (whether that is racial, political, philosophical, religious, or insert group here, declare that the world is against them, so they are against the world.
in extreme cases the smaller group works its way into violence against others or sometimes themselves (jonestown).
~W~
Their audacity is not limited to nonbelievers either, they also rage against those with moderate beliefs.
Sensationalist seek to elevate themselves above 'average believers' yet when they provoke others with their pious arrogance, they attempt to incite moderate believers to side with them, implying that it is the general belief that is 'under fire' rather than their disruptive behavior.
Sadly people accept the visible demonstrations of people they assume to be representative of a particular sub culture, or belief.
Imagine a person that had never seen Christians, and the first encounter was Fred Phelps?
This is why education is important, if a person is making public their beliefs, or ideals, then follow through is important.
Too often those who declare the most have nothing to offer of substance. So the question becomes.. why? What pretense do they have for being on a soap box
Calling people ignorant, and then not offering even basic material support is suspect behavior.
Especial when the inquiry is from a genuinely curious person, it is insulting.
Another common phrase from sensational fringe believers is "Your just afraid to believe." "Your afraid of the unknown."
Such statements are no different then the taunts,
" Why can't you be normal, Freak."
Implying that others are to scared to accept your beliefs, or ideal is bullsh** !
No one should be compelled to accept beliefs, out of intimidation, and to imply that as a convert you overcame some fear to believe, or subscribe to an ideal is very telling of that persons mentality, as mentioned before so well, any
belief that is claimed to put oneself on a pedestal is going to get people (believers, and nonbelievers alike) shaking the pedestal.
When people understand that each individual has a pace with coping with reality the more aware of the situation they will be, people look for attention where they have projected their identity, they seek to be the epitome of example inside that lifestyle, they confine in a belief system and add/edit from it to call upon attention and to show the "truth" they might have some truth that are probably stem from limited observation and studies carrying what the individual wants it to be true, then theydiscard the rest. Often when you study each group, lifestyle, race they have all a collective union in their beliefs and limit in that perception even scientist, when they are challenged and show new things that innovate the perception they feel destroyed and confused in denial for living an illusion for some time, is when you close to something that you know you confine in denial yourself. And judgements are raised from that limited perception.
Everyone should be free to believe as they choose without persecution about their belief's, yet in reality, such freedoms do not exist. Everyone has an agenda and will seek to impose it upon all that do not agree with their belief, no matter how subtle they divulge their point of view.
I was bullied, not only in school.
Now as an adult I am more ignored than bullied. So I am still unaccepted by the majority, I still feel a fish out of the water among people, even among people ''of my own.'' I have things in common with them but I still feel I can't really be part of a group. I am not even accepted by the family.
I tend to get defensive when people disagree with me. I don't want others to agree with me, but I want to show that my opinion is not wrong. Often I raise my voice without knowing and I sound aggressive, but it's not intentional. I am passionate in debates, especially regarding issues I feel are important. I am used to get attacked for my opinions, so no wonder I act like this, maybe it's an instinct.
Often it is just brainwashing.
If we have to put it on physical intimidation, I had people giving me weird looks when I dress Goth, while I had children come to me and say: nice.
As for looking for sympathy; when I was a teen I used to tell my life story to anyone I met. I was bullied because I was told that I was looking for attention and lying to look Goth, when in reality I just wanted someone, anyone, to talk to and listened to me, a friend. It's the wrong way to look for friends, but I didn't/ don't know how to make friends. I grew up on my own, never had idols or adults that I could see as mentors.
Sometimes I write rants in my journal, just a comment would make me feel better, and it’s like phew! Someone cares about what I think.
It is a relief when you are used to be ignored or laughed at for your beliefs.
I accept the fact that people disagree with me but I don't necessarily accept their opinion, especially the kind of opinions that make me say: are you serious?
I don't bully but sometimes I doubt people's sanity and intelligence.
This can be seen as elite but it's just another opinion.
At the same time I have met bullies and they told me they were bullied too, so I agree with anyone who says that bullies want to feel superior, at the same time it is like the ''cool'' person wants to maintain the brainwashed idea of what society accepts as normal therefore they bully because someone whether they choose so or not, do not fit in into the 'norm' category. Often it is also envy for someone to be themselves while they can't because they want to keep the ''cool'' look to be accepted and admired.
Freedom of believes is restricted, your life can be made hell if you don't fit the normality, where I live is like this.
Being yourself is nice but it can make your life difficult.
At the same time I see people who say they don't fit in into norm to be accepted by a minority of people when in reality they are/want to be someone else, it's like a contradiction but it happens.
I wonder how people feel they must convince others that they need to consider their ideal, urgently, and desperately.
I draw the line at, "great you have a belief, or idea." I can dig that. I may even ask (depending on how personable the association is) a little about what compelled that person to subscribe to that belief.
I will not be told , or sit by and let anyone imply that anyone else is less complete, or "closed minded' because they don't buy the pitch.
In a way I suspect that for such desperate people, they are compelled to preach to others, because by packaging it
to others, and hopefully convincing a person (usually a peer) or retorting any debate, they solidify their no doubt wavering conviction. Sort of saying to themselves "That sounded rational to a some what stranger, so I am not completely irrational."
Yes everyone has I right to believe as they want to, but practice is regulated by social standards.
Personal space, is more then physical.
I would not come to your house, and unload crumpled band gig fliers on your yard after you refused to accept one handed to you, I wouldn't stand there and yell..
"Dont be such a bully, read my flier."
"You really need to keep an open mind to my favorite band!"
"Why arn't you playing music?"
Not everyone who is the target of bullies is targeted because of their beliefs, or ideals.
A person with a chip on their shoulder will deny that they are targeted for their attitude, deflecting any reaction to their anti social disturbing behavior as an attack on their appearance (relative to their identity group).
I suppose you are talking suspending your agument about this topic on a speculative manner, that last post Ate many few psychology studies, big assertion right there.
I see glaring examples of people doing just that.
They are social disruptive , and when people reject them they convince themselves that it is all about what they believe, or their ideals.
I am not denying that people bully others for their beliefs alone, I am just mentioning a common practice employed by certain individuals.
Internet Trolls are very much known to utilize such tactics.
Declaring extraordinary things, and waiting in ambush for people who call them on their Bullsh**.
I like that definition Dabbler.. there are a few who seek argument, where none is warranted, foisting their opinions on others.
I wonder if they consider themselves Alpha, I don't.
And yes, I'm irked: it would seem that some think their experience will work for all. Well, I experience being bullied at School, Police, .. and erm, other places.. several of them work establishments.
I repeat, it's the weak making themselves feel better about themselves, by belittling others..
..bit like smackheads, or drunks try to brings down thiose around them. Bullies are every bit as bad.
Because people know that they can rally people by claiming to be a victim, they opt to portray themselves as one.
This digresses the severity of actual victims.
Calling someone a bully just because they present reasons why they don't subscribe to an ideal is pathetic.
Imagine siding with a person that claimed to be a victim of bigotry, only to discover that the person was an obvious instigator.
When a person imposes on others with their beliefs, or ideals, there is no obligation for that person to be enthusiastic about those beliefs, or alleged experiences.
When individuals make extraordinary claims, is it not reasonable for others to request supporting information?
How is that Bullying?
When a discussion tappers into ad hominum attacks
where believers, and people with fringe ideas call nonbelievers idiots, and ignorant, and imply that everyone fears what they claim to be.. how does that reflect on the character of that individual.
Yet such individuals often draw support from people that have moderate beliefs in the same area, only without all the pious sensational embellishment.
So it becomes obvious that they want to make nonbelievers feel inferior to them, which is simply not the case.
There is never any discussion about what they believe, it is always about them, and how people need to accept their extraordinary claims.
I understand if someone out right called them pathetic for believing what they believe, but i don't see that here, I see people ask for reference material, or a summary of their ideals.
There is a difference between cynical replies, and skeptical replies.
Being skeptical, I read Upirs articles, and followed the links, a fine example of a person that "puts it all out there. One could be cynical, and just say .."BLAH, its all foolish pap." But nothing is learned that way.
Yelling out to others over and over is disturbing, and people (believers, and nonbelievers alike) are bound to become critical of such people.
Even those who hold such fringe beliefs, and convictions are critical of others that make such claims..
Don't take people being critical personal.. and open say something besides "This is what I am, and I don't have to prove it to anyone."
There is no invitation there, its as if all that individual wants to do is astonish people, and people who want to astonish people with extraordinary claims, are compensating for lack of personality.
People bully others to make themselves feel superior.. Many differents reassons for it really.. One of mnay is due to the fact maybe the person being excluded or bullied is showing others that they can bully him/her.
I have to disagree that all considered fring are intolerant. I have found it to be the other way around. Since I have an ezine I am always reading articles. I have read of "mundane" people being rude and abusive to people in stores that happen to be dressed in a gothic style. I have even heard of them being slapped and things like that.
Most people gather together if their backgrounds and interests are similar. Many times it is ethnic groupings but socially there is a common ground. As for anyone "imposing" as you say, on mundane social circles, it would depend on why you are saying it in this way. Are you meaning they are trying to indoctinate people into their views or just talking about their interests in general? If you are going to be involved in certain activities you should be mature enough to know how to act and dress accordingly. I know the phrase of "wanting to be myself" but you can't do that if it is not appropriate.
There are many I even know that could be considered "fringe" but you wouldn't know this if you passed them on the street and they mix regularly with all sorts of people. I would say those you speak of are a minority. My question is this...isn't everyone looking for like minded people to feel comfortable with socially? Most of my friends don't believe anything that I do and it is those people that really push the limits with phrases and things they say that I consider presumptious and should be kept to themselves. I say nothing because it isn't worth starting an argument over. People should know when to speak of something and when not to. I call this good manners. Anything else is the individual and you will find over-bearing people in any stratum of society.
I don't believe there is a middle ground for most. Some have very strong convictions and they will stand up for them and want to talk about them. You just have to chalk it off to the way of the world because not everyone uses good judgment or good manners. There are a lot of people that will simply state, "I don't believe in that" and why I wonder sometimes if that is nothing more than grandstanding. I guess I have always been around certain aspects of fringe but there is a limit for me as well and if it doesn't feel right to me I don't get involved or try to tell someone else how to live.
Dabs I want to answer you infull hence the delay; Bmother is correct in that it should not be taken to literally.
Your posts are informative and detailed as are Upirs.
However I do think you seem to have taken a very narrow view of the way it all works and anyone who posts anything contrary to that doctrine is to be rediculed.
I know my posts always challenge the mainstream as I have no doubt we are still seraching for the truth.For some it lies in DNA, for others in religion, for some in ancient bloodlines and alien interference. I am still unsure but I have seen things which do not make coventional sense.
Despite several credible witnesses backing upwhat I what I have witnessed you take the logical path you subscribe to ignoring other entities or "deamons".
This is todays post from a world leading scientist about the very real possibility that I am maybe right.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1286257/Limitations-human-brain-mean-understand-secrets-universe.html
Please do not balk at what others post, it is misinterpreted by those who are already on the edge of something that may well be beyond your comprehension. Is it not better embrace new evidence ? Rather try using a black mirror or mental exercises.
that poem is beautiful Angelus. I think some people bullie `because it makes them feel better about themselfs because they have low self esteem!
"thank you.." I was the outsider. always the outsider.
hence the poem.
Dabbler, they will not change and explaining to them that they're wrong won't change them.
They're as intolerant as anyone can be, though speaking so eloquently ~ and that saddens mew more than the ignorant being intolerant.. just sad.
"Is it necessary for everyone to embrace you for your adopted/proclaimed ideo-social identity?"
"Or is it enough to be simple accepted, and realize that some are indifferent to your ideo-social identity?"
"To keep this thread on topic, please post your own thoughts prior to responding to the post of others"
(Quoting dabbler) wonder how people feel they must convince others that they need to consider their ideal, urgently, and desperately.
I couldn’t careless but then don’t criticize me for my image or lifestyle. Therefore I’ll respond your last two questions:
Is it necessary for everyone to embrace you for your adopted/proclaimed ideo-social identity?
Absolutely not, what I hate is hearing things like: omg you listen to rock music? You must be evil, crazy and blablabla.
It happened to me recently then the same person told me that now that she is getting to know me, she is changing her negative opinion about people who listen to rock.
Or is it enough to be simple accepted, and realize that some are indifferent to your ideo-social identity?
As long as I am left alone and in peace I couldn’t care less.
Actually I wish people would simply let me live in peace instead of pretending that I should live their lives and threat me badly for not doing so.
There lies the level ground,
a bully is seeking to batter a person into denouncing their beliefs. I hope that I have not come across that way.
Bigotry (ridiculing a person based on their ideas is wrong!
Encouraging a person to support their beliefs, or ideas is discussion. nothing is more aggravating to me personally then a person who implies that those who don't subscribe to their beliefs or ideals are afraid to, or ignorant of something they (and a faction) adopt.
One must find the point were they are sharing, and where they are imposing on others.
Abrasive behavior (from believers, or nonbelievers) is going to escalate into person space.
Steel Indigo makes a valued contribution to this thread.
a personal message to me, from a respected member points out how I skirted on being aggressive. I am being urgent, If people are to learn about someones ideals, then teach, use the venue to inform. Assuming that everyone just needs to accept your ideals at face value, and that those who don't are against you, is redundant.
I am starting to see more being offered here. AN posted a link, thats a start.
I have seen genuine cultural bigotry, it is gross.
I have seen reverse bigotry as well. Us against Them is a recipy for escalation.
Yes.. a recipe to escalation to the top floor while a grenade goes off. Not a good sitch at all.
And as to being bullied? Well. Being bullied is a weakness. It is also a strength. In hindsight, I think a bully is weak, as they have to be as they are to feel good: and it is possible, to find strength, through adopting a persona to suit, which will last as the needed mask, till one allows it to slip.
So true, some really ask for it, even attract it.Doesn't make it right but hell they must know they need an assertion course !
I think one must pitch ones post to the Profile in question, if its an areshole like me then no need to be shy but expect to get bit back !
Easy on the lower ranks and newbies, common sense really.
.. there are individials Lass, bothe Here and Realtime, who that doesn't matter to.. they be bullying you on their own preconcieved idea's, that yours do not meet.
if people carry themselves as if they are superiour to others then they will attract attention, from people who will chop at their pet superiourity.
I see " vampi (y)re here use the word " mundane" , how is that different from jocks calling students Dweebs?
Most people think they are better than all others. Jocks, Cheerleaders, just because they are beautiful and feel important.
"Smart" people, because they think that because they have more book smarts, they deserve better.
And then the people that bully others and push them around because they are "bigger and because they can".
Is it fair? No.
And it's not just in schools. These attitudes carry on into adulthood and stay there.
If others can't handle it or learn to work around it, that's their problem.
You will always be bullied in some way, shape, or form.
This thread has gotten quite long, and I don't have the time to read every response (sorry!), but one short response caught my attention. I believe Angelus said
"I'm always curious, why those who cry loudest for tolerance are often the least toerant of all."
I thought this was interesting, and has a lot of truth to it. You can even see similar circumstances on this very site by people that were bullied for being "different" (or adapted those differences in response to the bullying as a defense mechanism - that is another debate) that are very hateful on their profiles, and not accepting.
I dress normally, but I have a wide range of interests. It fascinates me how members in groups labeled as outcasts immediately judge me because I don't express myself through fashion. I dress simple, and I like it that way. If I walk up to a group of "freaks" or "goths" (I guess it depends on your age ;) ) I'm often called a prep to my face, and scorned. I've never been wealthy, or put much stock in it - I wonder why this is? To me it seems hypocritical. Often I see people saying "I'm just being myself", but are they truly? Wouldn't being yourself involve wearing exactly what YOU want without regard to what others think? So why are you adopting a "style"? They claim that that is what they want, and maybe it is now, but I have a hard time buying that that was originally the case.
One of my best friends in high school was labeled a freak (this was before the term goth was popular, or maybe it was because I was in the country and we didn't know the term) - we had a group of them that had their own corner during down times. I was friends with people from every group, including that one. Anyway, he started out just doing this own thing, and the labels started. Eventually he started wearing the opposite of what was popular, or hating certain things (movies, music, etc) out of a rebellious nature instead of what he really enjoyed. Are we pushing people that have the opportunity for creativity and uniqueness into roles by the hatred of children? Is this killing some of that very creativity and uniqueness? I rarely see unique people even on this website (though the ones I do find are extraordinary minds).
I will say that things change - at least for some issues - as an adult. I was a huge dork in school. I loved reading, fantasy, sci fi, star trek, and other things, and it resulted in very few friends. As I've gotten older I've found that most of the people that made fun of me, or created these popular groups ended up with horrible unhappy lives. I've very happy with my life, and doing big things - and I've found that girls find me interesting and attractive because of my uniqueness, and intelligence (the stunning good looks don't hurt!). This is the opposite of how it was in school. I've seen a similar trend with my friends that weren't popular in school, but maintained themselves and are now living happy lives. Sadly, the friends I had that let the social pressure change them (like the aforementioned friend) have never gotten over the angst - they are still rebelling, drinking and partying constantly (not saying some is wrong - I party and have fun -, but nightly will destroy your life), and are very miserable.
I have no idea where I was going with that. Perhaps it would have made a better journal article, but Angelus's post made me stop and think.
There is always someone who wants to be the top dog so there will always be people trying to knock them down.
as i see it.. its all on making one feel better about themselves.. everyone in school tries to fit in.. one way or the other.
one constant observation for me in school was those who thought, just because they assumed a social/sub culture identity, that others in that subculture were obliged to embrace them.
When two subcultures clash, and a person " has the scent" from being an active member, it is reasonable to expect apprehension from any subsiquent
Subcultures that person attends.
Sheesh.. I'm tempted to say, "re-read 'Freak'"
...face it.. bullies of any kind have no place.
if they need to verify there place with threats.. they have no place on this Earth, in this former victims mind, that is.
Should we then rally to the victim's aid, and risk the bully's wrath? Die with so-called honor is a death nonetheless.
That power to subjugate is sweet. Film and much of literature is bound to take the victim's side, to show the bully its comeuppance, but does that really exist in real life?
No, no, and no.
It's all brainwashing, all to give you hope that the unjust will be punished. Mostly they're not. They go on to live wonderful lives for the most part. Much better than yours.
Bash the bully's head in (figuratively) or shut the fuck up.
You weren't tempted to say it - you did say it. Just be upfront instead of all this passive aggressive stuff. We disagreed on the quotes meaning, but I was attempting to be polite.
Dabbler - I do agree with you, but it was the comments themselves that labeled others that I found a bit...ironic...considering labeling was their main gripe.
A new concept qualified bullying~ After all, no such thing as a bad experience (apart from Polio)
An individual can grow..."Poke a dog enough and watch its bollocks grow"
Examples; "V for Vendetta" when he toutured Evy.
The Vampire film "Let the right one in" ...where the victim is elightened and Grows physically and mentally to overcome.
The main point here is bullying is it not? I see responses here that seem a bit too anxious too diminish the victim.(curious)
I do not believe a bully has the capacity to live a wonderful life. The personality flaws it takes to be a bully prevent any real modicum of happiness in my opinion.
And if they are truly happy then they are not only a bully but a sociopath without the capacity for empathy and that is something else entirely.
any who think that diminishing another makes them powerful is deluded and insecure, true power does not destroy, it creates.
The main concept here is assumed percicution, and how the " I am being picked on" line is thrown around when someone fails to convince, or astonish others with their extraordinary claims, and exagerated beliefs.
People are actually persicuted, and I am not denying that. I am addressing how such contrived "victims" digress the matter.
Which was why the Title is " Bullied?"
People who want undivided attention will proclaim extraordinary things, just to convince themselves that they can " win people over", when they fail they revert to casting themselves into a victims role, and they rally people around them. This is a main ingridiant of Drama.
Not all who declare themselves victims, are actually victims.
.. to use a favourite quote of my own: how come the people who shout loudest for tolerance, so often fail to be tolerant themselves??
Intolerance of religion must not be tolerated
"There shall be no slavery of the mind." --- Victor Hugo
Church / meeting house
As the number of new religious movements continue to increase in membership, the necessity to defend the right of people to worship as they please, as long as they do not harm others, is also increasing. Religious bigotry stems mostly from ignorance, fear, and spiritual competition. None of these need be reasons for engaging in religious intolerance and bigotry. I'll address why this is so here. But first, I would like to write about "tolerance" itself. The word is defined here as follows:
TOL·ER·ANCE (n.)
1. The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others.
2.a. Leeway for variation from a standard. b. The permissible deviation from a specified value of a structural dimension, often expressed as a percent.
As Robert Green Ingersoll pointed out, to "tolerate" someone is to make an "assumption of authority" and it is therefore invalid to say to another "I tolerate you" or "I tolerate your religion / beliefs." One does not have the authority to "tolerate" someone else's religious beliefs: that is the default condition, and requires no act or largesse on anyone's part. Therefore when I write about religious tolerance, I am speaking about the fact that one has no right to perform any wrongful act against a person or group based only upon that person's or group's religion, religious beliefs, or lack of religious beliefs. The default is if they cause no harm, leave them alone.
Note that harmful actions caused in the name of a church, religion, or religious belief are certainly open to criticism: it is not being intolerant or bigoted to castigate criminal, unethical, and immoral behavior. Indeed, it is a human being's duty to oppose criminal acts regardless of who commits them. Crimes committed in the name of religion are still crimes, and must therefore be denounced.
Molko v. Holy Spirit (46 Cal. 3d 1092; 762 P.2d 46; 1988 Cal. LEXIS 236; 252 Cal. Rptr. 122) to wit: "However, while religious belief is absolutely protected, religiously motivated conduct is not." (Sherbert v. Verner (1963) 374 U.S. 398, 402-403 [10 L.Ed.2d 965, 969-970, 83 S.Ct. 1790]; People v. Woody (1964) 61 Cal.2d 716, 718 [40 Cal.Rptr. 69, 394 P.2d 813].) "Such conduct remains subject to regulation for the protection of society." (Cantwell v. Connecticut, supra, 310 U.S. at p. 304 [84 L.Ed. at p. 1218].)
Crusaders torturing Jews
Crusaders torturing Jews.
# IGNORANCE. Discriminating against someone for their harmless religious beliefs (or lack of religious beliefs) out of ignorance is probably the second greatest "reason" religious discrimination and bigotry occurs. People may believe they "know" something about a church, religion, or religious belief that they do not in fact know; what they believe they know may be inaccurate. It is often the case that the only sure way to know what a religion actually teaches is to watch how members actually behave: if they do no harm, and do not cost non-members their time, money, and other resources, then ignorance is not a valid excuse for intolerance and bigotry. Education is the cure for ignorance. That education must come from the church or religious individuals themselves, as well as from the community that church resides in. (However, it is very often the case that the best information about a church or religion comes from people who have once been members but are no longer members.) If the community is not being harmed by a church, one must TOLERATE THAT CHURCH. One has no moral or ethical reason to do otherwise.
# FEAR. People trust what they know, and distrust that which they are not familiar with. If one encounters an unfamiliar church or religion, it is only fair, ethical, and moral to withhold judgment for or against that church or religion until it has demonstrated itself worthy of fear--- which the vast majority never do. When the "newness" of the church or religion wears off, the fear will diminish.
# SPIRITUAL COMPETITION. The worse offenders against religious tolerance are members and leaders of competing religions. This is a shame, as those who are religious bigots have failed to understand the fact that to be accepted themselves, they must accept others. There are many reasons why people belong to the religions they do: the chief one being geography and familial tradition. If they are happy with their religion, and if they harm no one, there is no reason to object to their choice of spirituality.
If someone's religion "does not break your bones or pick your pocket," you are ethically and morally obligated to LEAVE THEM ALONE and thus tolerate them. It costs you nothing to do so, and it is wrong to do otherwise.
David M. Rice
source Holy Smoke.org
No one is obliged to be enthusiastic about what others believe.
every belief is based on personal speculation, and in some cases person experiences.
bullies are insecure people who take out their weaknesses on somebody percieved as weaker than them.then they feel better about themselves.when they join an army they go for jobs which keep them out of frontline action.very few policemen have been bullies as they have to face alot of danger.
Yet their are a lot of cops who had a false sense of persecution as children, and as young adults.
When a person reacts to socially unadaptive people they are not necessarily being bullies.
Bully has become the new buzz word.
When people shield themselves from consequences
for their lack of social etiquette by labeling even those who simply disregard them, or request not to be imposed upon, as bullies, even "tolerant" people will draw a line somewhere between acceptable behavior and unacceptable behavior. By allowing those that are politely rebuked to denounce those who rebuke them as bullies, we are allowing that behaviour to impose upon the establish social dynamic, that the individual is disturbing (intentional, or out of impulsive whim).
I wasnt speaking to your observations Dab, but a few that came before.
When someone infringes on others they are not readily received socially. Some individuals lack social development, so they over compensate by being socially abrasive with their personal interest , rather then talking with others they talk at others. Most people go through this awkward phase.
A person is not being a bully if they are upfront about being disturbed by such a person.
When they ridicule the individual it borders on bulling.
It is sad when people plead to others that they are victims, and those that rally to their alleged cause find contrived drama.
How often do we see people enter a general discussion on a topic without contributing nothing relevant to the topic, yet expounding upon their personal interpretations in grandiose fashion?
Such individuals seek reaction. Yet they cringe when that reaction is either inquisitive, or reproachful. They want for my person conviction, or against my personal conviction.
Such is Troll 101.
im bullied all the time for how i look and how i act and what colorai wear and what site i use and all i do is put up with it you know what im fighting back staying strong and am so sick of the fight so lets all come together and end this tonight!!!!
"If others can't handle it or learn to work around it, that's their problem."
.. how sad, that some might think bullying is tolerable.
.. though that attitude probably says more of their own philosophies, I'd guess.
There are certain people who apply the label bully to people who are simply not comfortable with their social presence.
Asking a person to go away is not bullying.
Not all who are accused of being bullies are bullies.
Push a persons bounderies, and they will react, reacting to an intrusion upon ones sensibilities, does not a bully make.
It can be said that such a person who intrudes upon anothers person sensibilities is infact5 the bully, yet they make no overt aggressive acts. A passive intrusion.
.. watching Soloman Kane, it struck me that the pilgrim fathers left England as they felt persecuted for their religion. And talking equality: what did they do as soon as they got to the New World? They ripped off the indigenous people for a lot of land, for a few beads.
My fathers favorite saying "Your freedom ends, where my skin begins" had to throw it in ....
Thank you, that is a classic saying. The term bully has become a trump card.
To example my point; A person ( who happens to be black) is acting out against a young lady. A male intervenes, confronting the person for their behaviour. The black man chimes in " Oh so your afraid this poor girl is gonna like a black guy? Your predjudice!"
No actually it has nothing to do with race, it has to do with behaviour.
.. there are those who always seek advantage over others and, will do so in whichever way they can...
If a person bullies, or harassed people long enough, and those people reacted by turning on the person, what if ( and I have seem this happen) the harasser/bully claimed to be a victim of bullying?
This is why people need to consider
such cases, with scrutiny, and not jump to conclusions.
Investigation is warrented.
Because bully is the new flash word, and antagonist are apt to utilize the concept to rally attention, when their extraordinary tales are ignored, or people become less entuisastic about their increasingly wonderous testimonies.
Honestly, I believe we should live our own lives and let everyone else live theirs, intervening only when absolutely necessary!
Exactly.
Though Bullies are to be pitied too. A person driven to that level must have some big problems. Hate spawns hatred and unfortunatly, so do fears.
I feel no sympathy for ANY bully.
Each one of them.. each.. deserves what they give.
Bullies are not to be pitied. Simply eliminated from life.
I was bullied for 7 years straight in school. And I do pity the ones that did it. Since then, most of them have apologized to me and explained that they were only doing it out of fear, or because they had a lot of problems at home. Having already known this is what kept me from going insane in those days.
I suspect people are missing the specifics of this thread.
It is not a " lets testify to being victims" thread.
It demonstrates my point, that people jump to assumtion when they hear the word Bully.
This is not about legitiment victims, it is about individuals who label others bullies because they don't embrace their
Extraordinary Claims, or they question the consistancy of the narration.
When people impose their beliefs on others they make people feel uncomfortable, this is a two way street.
On one side the passive, on the other the aggressive.
.. in effect, read through the thread and, 'spot the bully'?? Ahhh, I was thinkin quite literally.
**looks for wood to build a bully pyre**
I think scientists give people to much credit, I swear some bullies just LIKE to bully, there is no deepseated emotional reason behind it.