I was reading Gothic Craft by Raven Digitalis and had to keep from laughing. He made some good points, but most of it was a cry of teenage angst to me. Trying to give a subculture a setting for a stereotype. But anyways......
Do you think that Wicca and gothic culture go hand in hand?
Why? Does witchcraft have a major influence on subcultures? if so how?
They also have Christian Wicca.
Once again I say it sells books.
You have fairy Wicca
Books are guidelines, it is what you feel is right for one's self.
When a person grasp for validation through social idenity they often stack their plate, in an attempt to increase their social options. You get all sorts of amalgamations, it is an attempt to be all things to all people, and because subcultures, and alternative beliefs/practices are perceived as libral, and accepting people assume they can stretch the definition, or water down aspects to fit their personal agenda. To often such people are shunned by some in the subculture for aggressively pressing ideals from their other interest (note i didn't say beliefs)
all along claiming to be highly devote (learned ) in the beliefs/.practice of present company.. of course conflict will come from such fair weather individuals, but such individuals simply take that as offense and they tote it back to the other associations, and bad mouth the once attractive group they adopted. All the while never developing a personality, or individual identity.
I agree with dabbler. Plus he tries to combine vampirism in there as well. Also stereotypes music. that certain types of goths listen to such and such band. it's a mockery of wicca in my opinion.
I haven't read it, but it bares the concept of an attempted trend setter, one who i would suspect is set to market to the trend he is attempting to perpetuate.
http://www.robertlanham.com/foodcourtdruids.html
here is a book that placed such social phenomena in perspective for me, when I had my identity "shopping phase".
In a sense, moderately their is nothing 'wrong" with such things. But the potential clashes start when one presents themselves as titled, and elite above other more practical believers/practices.
when people hear the word othic or wicccan so many things can come to their minds. very much so if they kno nothing of either. i believe that the actual form of wiccan could coincide with gothic, but only on a mature level.
there are jewish goths, christian goths, satanic goths, etc etc
when i saw there was a book entitled gothic wicca, i snorted a bit i admit. but the great thing about wicca, is that it was designed from the beginning to be a mix and match system. you can plug almost anything into the blanks and make it work.
the important thing is not if i or someone else thinks that this is valid...the important thing is if a person seeking a spiritual path finds solace in following their chosen system.
~W~
how do you have Christian WIcca, like 99% of the Christians I know would think wicca was evil, and so would most of the atheists
with the plug and chug system that wicca employs, even christian wiccan can exist.
the really funny thing is that term wicca refers to a male practictioner of magic in old english. a female would be a wiccae.
so the term wicca has been changed for this system.
~W~
i didn't say they couldn't exist i said that the people i know are intolerant and ignorant
Unseen,
It would be the fundamentalist that you speak of, rather then blanket entire faith.
what is most common, are individuals who profess so much, all for social ornamentation, when they are "pressed" for relative knowledge they bulk, and or misrepresent, so indeed they are not always accepted by unmixed collectives.
I picture it like a person Wearing Hockey, and Basketball fan gear to a Base Ball game, they are going to standout, and attempt to engage baseball fans in Hockey chat. it is just so socially desperate.
I have never followed any of the Gothic Wicca from the books it has always been with in. And streight from the heart
Absolutely not even though I come from a generation where Goths were Wiccans as well and vice versa.
Also the combation of the vampire lifestyle with the Gothic one.
And they used to increase day by day. They used to be in groups all dressed Gothic, some with fangs and with a Wiccan pentagram, and most of them didn't even know what the symbol referred to. I know more people who are like this from different sub cultures too.
I honestly don't know where they got this, I guess from books such as these.
That's why I don't believe anything that I read and everything that I hear.
Like it was mentioned before, trying to fit in- I saw and still see that thing a lot, peer pressure even from ''adults,'' as well as fads, and if you don't see you fit in 100% they'll call you poser or ignore you and forget you completely, but still remain friends on-line...
Wicca- Was Founded in the 1940 's and 50's by Gerald Gardner, who also wrote a multitude of books on the subject.
Witchcraft-Was founded in the 1600's starting in Scotland then coming to the colonies .
Gothic-Gothic is the term originally used to describe things pertaining to the Gothic people and then reused in a variety of contexts.
The Goths were traditionally thought to have originated in northern Europe and moved south towards the borders of the Roman Empire in the second century. Eventually they occupied territories in modern Germany, Spain and Italy.
The Goths became a byword for northern barbarism and from the sixteenth century their name was given to the dominant architectural and artistic style of the late medieval period, which had originated in France in the twelfth century, Gothic architecture.
The style became idealized in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries within Romanticism, leading to the architectural Gothic revival, beginning in Britain but spreading to continental Europe and North America, by which medieval buildings were restored and large numbers of civil, ecclesiastical and educational buildings built in a medieval style.
The creation of literary works that employed such late medieval backdrops to explore dark aspects of human nature and the supernatural led to the creation of Gothic fiction, which was the origin of the modern horror genre in books, film, T.V. and more recently video game
You can not say that witchcraft and wicca are the same because they aren't , Gothic is not a style it is a time period.
Wicca is a neo-pagan religion that was started by Gerald Gardner and others to become famous granted some of these have written a lot of very informative books but still you must make up your own mind as to what you are or what you do.
At what point am I allowed to laugh at all this?
I'm going to go align myself with the Emo Twilight Jewish Satanic Easter Bunny Goths.
Think I can write a book on it?
There isn't many religions that are very original. A lot of what is adopted in the modern world are just stems off of another and another, always changing as people's beliefs and thinking change. Which is why i say people should just respect one another's beliefs because they all come from the same source or borrowed from what was original.
why do things have to complicate themselves by becoming a religion?
ladySnowStrixx didst say:
Wicca- Was Founded in the 1940 's and 50's by Gerald Gardner, who also wrote a multitude of books on the subject.
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yup...thats true.
Witchcraft-Was founded in the 1600's starting in Scotland then coming to the colonies .
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where do you get that from? there are reports of witchcraft as far back as in ancient egypt.
The creation of literary works that employed such late medieval backdrops to explore dark aspects of human nature and the supernatural led to the creation of Gothic fiction, which was the origin of the modern horror genre in books, film, T.V. and more recently video game
You can not say that witchcraft and wicca are the same because they aren't ,
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ive heard it put this way, and agree....all wiccans are witches...but not all witches are wiccan
Gothic is not a style it is a time period.
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wrongo...its a time period...its a literary style (as you yourself said), and its a style of music and of fashion.
just because you only wish to subscribe to a single meaning of a word doesnt mean that the other meanings of the word are not also legitimate.
just wanted to clarify that.
~W~
.
My take on this.
Witchcraft is witchcraft.
Wicca is a nice little belief system that goes with everything from Mormonism, Catholocism, Christianity, and Buddhism, to any other religious system the fluffy bunny can muster up to give us retarded names like:
Catholic Wiccan
Christian Wiccan
Buddhist Wiccan
Mormon/Shaman/Wiccan
Satanic Wiccan
etc.
useless piles of dribbling stench.
The authors are there to sell books to several different religious believers that have swayed too far from their original faith and lack the true devotion and sincerity it takes to live by their religions standpoint.
My opinion of the book is that it is there to be there and bring in money for the dumb ass who wrote it. If you are Wiccan, practice witchcraft, Pagan or any other religious title then why are you adding an adjective to it? You are what you are no matter what style of life you lead.
Another way to see it, imagine splicing various fruit tree branches onto .. a plum tree trunk, ok after doing that, one complains that their .. apples don't taste like plums.. how many grafts can a person splice until it becomes ridiculous?
I am with OB on this one.
I really suspect that the pressure from faith stains people so much that they are locked in by fear, thus the maintaining the declaration of Christianity, yet I highly suspect that they would be less vocal about their Alternate Ideals when in company with Fellow X-ians.
Again it is more likely a social grasping, and as mentioned authors know how to market to such people.
As with any religion it is your words and actions.
Books are wonderful guidelines, but I agree with the person above
it is your highest and best intentions within.
Gardner entitled his creation as Wicca which originally he spelled Wica but no one knows if they weren't refering to him as a male witch, the difference between Wicca and Wicce. It is a modern religious view prior to the Goth movement but very eclectic so I guess you could add anything to it you wanted. It isn't like traditional witchcraft. He was friends with Crowley so it is influenced by Hermetic magick and his being a nudist among other things. It is established as viable now especially in the US. It appears to be a religious experience like Bahai in that it tends to absorb things from other belief systems. I don't see what gothic would have to do with Wicca but to each their own...anything to sell a book.
that is what some love about wicca....and what some hate.
you can have pet wicca....you could have barney the dinosaur wicca...
barney takes the role of the god, and that little triceratops thing (boop?) can take the role of the goddess.
~W~
I dont have anything specific to add. I would however like to thank everyone who participated and provided information and view points. I really enjoyed reading this thread!
Then there are those who want to be extraordinary, and present themselves as more complex, then the general majority of any collect identity, they want to be exceptional to what they see as mundane.
Add this to the complex of wanting to be aligned with as many social identities as possible, and you get a very sketchy person who bound to become transparent through inconsistent general conversation relating to general interest, and common topics among said group.
Gothic wicca sounds just stupid...Goth is Goth and Wicca is Wicca. What someone believes has nothing to do with there style.
I would put it in the same category as Nike Martins.
Wanting to be extraordinary in already fringe subcultures.
a duel allegiance, makes for twice the socializing options. I never heard Goth mandating wicca as a prerequisite, and visa versa.
In my opinion I think it all depends on the individual person, especially from a solitaries stand point. Myself being solitary in my religious pursuits. I don't of many covens of Gothic Wiccans, if there are any (at least around my area).
If you veer towards the darker aspect of life and wish to incorporate your Gothic lifestyle in with your religion it fits in well with Wicca as is it can with any other religious out look.
i don't even think of wicca as being a "Dark" religion
Wicca is a balance of all things in nature, you cannot have light without darkness.
Goth is to the individual. I don't believe it "darkens" the religion at all.. It's all in what you take from it and put into yourself.
We have those that worship the sun as much as those that worship the moon.
what about the grey shadowy area, where does the middle ground that light and darkness reject fit in?
Good question Fate. There is always a middle ground to things. Just like on a battle field or chess board. There is the light side and the dark side. You can stand on either side or in between it is up to you. Not all of us are pure good or pure evil we are a mixture of both.
and the maelstrom of light and darkness within me rages on for control. I think i like the shadows, shadows are the darker side of a middle ground, but you can't cast a shadow without the light
as somebody who has practiced magick for 15+ years, I'll put it this way, there are goths who are wiccan, there are wiccans who are not goths. I've found people of all faiths into the gothic industrial scene. It seems that Gothic Wicca (as some call it) seems to be the new selling point for some books and authors. I think it just gives them a name for what they have practiced for years. I was a Pagan before I was a goth (even if i'm growing into an old fart, lol), and the magick I worked was what was in my heart, not out of some book. I'm not slamming Digitallis or Konstintinos, I enjoy their books. It's a refreshing take on Wicca, instead of doing the same old rehashed wicca 101 that everyone else does.
Yeah it is used in digoxin, which is used as a cardiac drug.
Trying to appeal to whomever he thinks will buy his books. Gothic Wicca sounds like something emo's would be into. Goth was a time period like the renisance it is not a or ever was a religion.
Goths are probably best, and by this point only, known for their architecture.
Any other definition has been skewed by today's society.
especially considering that gothics were primarily christians who wore black as an external mark to let everyone know what they believed, if i remember correctly.
But if not someone (probably dabbs or firmament if he's still around) will come by and correct me viciously.
i dont think it should be mixed with wicca, and if it really has been, as i can tell from someone mentioning a book that was sold,
it wasn't by anyone who knew what that meant.
therefore i wouldn't trust them.
Before goth, their was Society, parlor society that shunned the rise of artificially popular media (as leaflets became popular) press. anyone brave enough to shun popular ( proper of course) society risked plenty.
So how society gained the moniker goth may obscure, but goth is drab, without thrills, shunning mainstream.. so Mainstream Goth, is a contradiction in terms.
Coupling the term is peculiar as well.
Cab, no real correction..
i love redundant phrases like Lunarmoon
AngelicGood
demonsin
BlackShadow
and
SharpClaw
as names.
really gets the point across-Twice!
Wicca is a very eclectic belief system. It can encompass many things. What it is not is witchcraft which is different and a little more specific about certain factors. They don't incorporate all the things Wicca does. Nothing wrong with that. These days the term witch and witchcraft is used loosely by writers and by Americans quite frankly. I would suppose you could put the two together just by the fact that one is goth and they practice some form of Wicca unless it gets more specific to gods of death or underworlds and things like that.
Cabrion Posted: 16:43:42 - Sep 12 2010
"i love redundant phrases like Lunarmoon
AngelicGood
demonsin
BlackShadow
and
SharpClaw
as names.
really gets the point across-Twice!"
It leaves little room for doubt lol.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=food+court+druid
I highly suggest that book, ideo-culture is so gut clenching funny..
like Ammo-sexual
1. ammosexual
A male who refuses to wear anything resembling pastels. He believes turtles are for soup, not for necks. Starbucks? The only buck this man cares about is a 12-pointer. No hair gels, no blow dryers, no skin care products, no breath mints, no socks with little pictures on them. Sushi? That's bait. Manscaping? Only if that refers to sewing up your own wound.
Dave's belief that any vehicle without a ball hitch isn't street legal is clear evidence the man is an ammosexual.
There is also a Okey-Cheenokhonkey
It is easy to belittle the Goths as nothing more than a modern fad, quasi Emo's with black hair and a lack of regard for the institutions we take for granted.
Some say they were the ones who sacked Rome, a band of outsiders who journeyed from Northern Europe.
They were treated as second class citizens in the Italian Empire. Left to rot on the fringes of Roman Society, in time they grew bitter and strong.
Nowadays the rich and powerful bankers and media view certain regions as outsiders, the underclass, an unworthy, insignificant social group.
They would do well to learn a little history. In case you think this is just philosophy one might notice the actions of Hedge funds.Now that banking has few merits, they are actively buying up land with water rights for irrigation and crops.
Indeed many countries, China,Brazil, Africa, are now actively barring foreign ownership of arribal land.
What is it they know?
You do not?
P.s. You cannot eat Gold my friend.
Here Endeth the lesson.TGK.
FlawlessForce,
I like my Witch Kraft with Cross Cut Fries, and Mayo Dressing..
Sorry couldn't resist..
I do not believe that Wicca and Gothic Culture go hand in hand at all. I know loads of wiccans who are not gothic.
I know a lot of christian wiccans aswell as those who remain agnostic.
Demonsin,
I invite you to my thread, Why Stand Out, a part of the answer is there.
Consistently I note that those who affiliate with multiple groups tend to lack any foundational knowledge of any of their adopted group. They are commonly caught presenting the testimony of others as their own, and regurgitating fantastical stereotypical sensational crap. always attempting to engage study groups with such outrageous, and ridiculous hypothetical toss around with conflicting doctrine and how they're ideals should be hashed out..
so many damn group functions, but hay in most cases isn't that what it is all about , I really don't believe such people are benefiting from faith, and that they are in it for the wrong reasons, and they have the potential to confuse, or cause factions in otherwise moderate content socially sound churches. and groups.
it is always the two season sport fan that slips at a hockey pub with foot ball (soccer) stats.
Master Dabs the worn leather patches and use of olde English are wearing somewhat thin.
Please be more concise and may I refer you to the site of the using simple English in order to communicate effectively.
Your use of why's, wherefore's and subtexts are akin to complex maths.
Usually used by Government;Social Security applicants to avoid benefit payments.
May I quote, "the affiliate associate group that tend to lack foundational knowledge are ostensibly subjective
in their paradoxical conclsusions concerning the subject matter."
However, objectively speaking, applying converse paradoxical conclusions from the original data, pre-disposed to the original paradox,
implies a completely different value system.
One that is pre-disposed to the degenerate compiling the dynamic imagined.
Thus one concludes all readers prefer the researchers avoid the dynamics, the what if's and wherefore's.
So let us keep to simple English.
funny Griner*
How you always appear just in time to provide an example to my post.
Your note even trying to be sensible are you?
Now again, let me refresh, anything you have to say to me, kindly hold your tongue, your personal vendetta does not belong in the forums.