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There is a way of turning the truth into whatever it needs to be, in order to satisfy concience.

There is also a way of changing the perspectives of what is right and wrong, so that they fit one's own spectrum of opinion.

A good example would be two sides of a religion arguing for and against war, but with both opinions based upon the same principles and ethical frameworks.

In this way, what are the boundries set for the acting out of vampyric tendancies?

There are a number of codes of conduct currently in circulation, which define a fairly rigid set of boundries for action and behaviour, but how many subscribe to one of these and of those, who can say that they uphold these in their entirety?

So many talk of how they 'feed' as if it were some form of domination and exercise of power over their perceived victim.

Yet others speak of being grateful to those who find themselves attracted to the allure, the mystique and of course, the sexuality of such a personal act and are willing to 'donate' themselves.

Which is right and which is wrong, morally, within vampire society?

Taking by force because one is superior, or acceptence of offering, in acknowledgement of dependance?

This is an excellent question, Stabb. I tend to go on the side of asking for the most part. I feel that if one is to feed from someone specifically they should have that person's permission first. It's a matter of respect and it's a matter of gratitude if one is able to find a donor who is willing. I am picky and choosy about whom I will feed from directly, and this causes me to search out those who might be more open minded. If permission can be gained, I find the feed is more satisfying because the donor willingly 'opens the floodgates'.

However, there are situations in which one may feed without permission. And it's not always a question of dominance, but rather a question of immediate need. I try to sustain myself and work hard to regulate and refine my energy. I feed ambiently and if I can find a willing donor, so much the better.

Has there been a time I fed without permission? Yes. Did they notice? I tried to take enough to help and not enough to really be missed. Did I feel a twinge of guilt? Not really...

For clarity, is this going to be strictly based on today's vamp society or are we going to be influenced by story characters such as from Anne Rice and the way they act?

I think it's clear that I am referring to the self-styled current social grouping.

Real people who believe themselves to be of a vampire nature and how they act, whether appropriately or not.

I don't believe, personally, that either side is wrong nor right. It's all persception. Which is more "acceptable" as to forcibly taking what one feels they can, or waiting to be offered, relies largely on who you ask. There is no wrong nor right, there is only what is in the heart and mind of each individual.

well to tell the truth it is hard, as is any path we choose to walk...But I do my best to stay on that path and when I am starting fall I seek out those that walk it as well to keep me on it.

BeshadowedChild,

Maybe next time, you might try to be even more ambiguous.

I do think that those who take by force don't believe they are in the wrong.

Ah, Lord Ryu,

Peer pressure serves you well then, as does meeting the expectations of others demands?

Which is similar...

I believe we are all instraments of free will. When you judge every action that affects you, as some grandious good or evil effect; you make your life a living hell. It is better to see life as though through a window than as some political campaign speech between good and evil.

However it is still important, even having achieved detatchement, to exercize restraint in your thought and actions; because excesses of any kind breed imbalance and repercussions.

Kglitterous, what you have described is the ability to step outside of a situation and view it from an almost disinterested perspective. I think that any situation that holds the potential to be morally ambiguous ought to be viewed from this perspective before action is taken.

Sometimes the answer falls on your side of morality, sometimes it does not. I have been told sometimes that I align myself with Satanism in that many times my decisions fall on the side of greatest good for the self. (which incidentally ends up being what is best in the mind of others, as well who have influence on my personal greatest good)

More along the lines of honoring my way of life my brother

I don't think there is a norm for this. I feel that you can do what you want as long as people do not get hurt in the process. Do you know what I mean?

My alignment is panreligeous. With current heavy interpretive leaning towards Buddism and Toltec, with a Judeo/Christian/Islamic Monotheistic view centered on the Bahai Belief of Progressive revelation.

I believe in "judge not lest Thee be judged"
largely because we have way insufficient information

and

"Take thyself into account each day"

Detatchment has more layers than an onion. I am currently trying very hard to be detatched while in communion with lawyers who's sole purpose appears ot be to generate legal fees for the purpose of forclosing on my house.

Sevenn,

By that token, subjectivity is key to deciding whether one's own concience can accept the action about to be perpetrated.

But when one is honour-bound to hold themselves to a moral code, how does a person then find a way through to satisfying their need, without harming their self-respect?

unfortunately in this day and age, with societies (particularly American society) practically geared to be litiginous, it is an a fact of life that just taking what you want or need, especially in the ways of a vampire, is a guaranteed trip to a jail cell, if not a courtroom for harrassment, assault, etc. These things were not as pervasive in the early days as they are now-vampires were considered to be lords or gods, and none would dare say anyhting against them...these days, I have seen more than one thread of people copying/pasting news articles of people being arrested for assault because they tried to TAKE blood. While polite permissiveness may not be our natural way, perhaps it is these days an unavoidable compromise...

Simple, they don't: there are many examples of religions that give members an "out" for this very thing...catholic's go to confession, jews observe yom kippur, so on and so forth. When subjectivity dictates you make a choice against your code,we find ways to excuse it and most people will use the idea of necessity itself AS the excuse. If a person is not a member of a formal religion, I believe they take the same steps in their mind.

Either that OR, they choose to live with guilt; plenty do that as well for various reasons, but I find that humans are amazingly able to rationalize and justify their own behavior to suit their choices.

So, morally, it would be abusive and ought to cause guilt, if one were to invade anothers' system without express permission. Reasoned ethics overcoming the nature of the beast, as it were.

Which leaves the other option of accepting gratuity from one who has perhaps sympathy, perhaps desire of their own in a Submissive function, to be Moral and subsequently, more socially acceptable?

my biggest objection is to the ones who pick and choose which parts of religion suit their needs, and then call themselves a new age/combo platter/ kind of esoteric thing. They use pieces parts to justify what they want to do, and what doesn't allow them to get what they want they disallow. That, to me is not following a path or a way of life or anything- that is rationalization at it's worst.
Like I always told my son- saying your sorry for something doesn't mean anything if you keep doing the same thing wrong again and again

So, even in the second case, the act can still fall foul of a moral ambiguity, through sociopathic and perhaps even uintended manipulations of a person with greater submissive tendancy?

And also, is the dominant nature of man a result of this Nietzschean view- that we all are born into subservience to our world, our society?

Is it an exploitation by those without moral fibre, or is it that some of us are inherently wolves, whilst yet others are sheep-like?

Aha!

Sorry for adding a bit of an afterthought on you...

So then, the denial of concience would allow for the freedom of action under even a strict set of Ethics?

I see what you mean, by it being a concept born into the minds of men long before he got it out in such well described terms.

To the third, it could again be said that self-deception is the means by which such a perspective can be bred in the mind. Those who turn away from the sad realities of their life, seeking escapism, a reprise from mundanity, often find themselves wading into schizophrenia and become unable to seperate the fiction which they have built for themselves, from the actuality of their existence.

Wolves feel guilt?

One of the first things I learned from any manager was that a manager does not explain why he made a mistake. You simply accept that an action was done. Accept the ramifications, and move on.
there is no point in dwelling on the past of the issue, and any dwelling on the issue comes out as weakness.

Deliberaely harming another due to selfish indulgence can never be right... however who is to measure the level of harm you are doing. There is a difference between syphoning off a little energy, bewildering a lover, or disappropriate aquisition of blood; and making someone pass out while driving, rape, and murder.

Even then, nearly all people are murderers... nearly everyone has a specific scenario in which they would feel justiied in taking the life of another. It's just that most of us don't go looking for that specific scenario to come to pass.

Human Are The Only Creatures That Try To Justify The Things They Do, The Church...In The Name Of God,
Goverment............It's For The Good Of Our Country.
Others.. Because I Was Wronged Or They Deseved It Or Better Yet Because I Deserve It Are Excuse Used To Justify Actions Taken Against Others.
You rarly hear... Because I Wanted to, Or Because I Felt Like It.
Society now adays allows most to blame others so they dont have accountability.
it's because of this or that,,,bla bla bla

Within the vampyric community there appears to be some rules but since it is self-policing these are left to individual interpretation. This leads back to your earlier statement that people will turn the truth to whatever they need or want it to be. If a vampire feels they can only feed by acting as the predator and taking their nourishment from an unwilling or unaware victim, they will justify this as the “only” way for them to survive. They could find willing donors, but they have convinced themselves of the rightness of their actions. Perhaps they simply enjoy the “hunt” but there may also be those who use it as an excusable method of causing injury to another. Therefore to obtain by force that which can be obtained without distress to another would be morally wrong, in my opinion. It is not self-defense or a question of survival when you can obtain it by other methods that do not require injury to another. I am speaking specifically of Sang vampires but it could apply to Psi vamps if the victim cannot spare the energy. If you do not take the time to know your donor, how can you accurately determine if you are causing harm or not? What kind of honor can be found in this? Too often honor like truth is thrown away when inconvenient.
While it may seem morally acceptable for a poor man to steal while reprehensible for the rich man to do so, no one is asking if the man being stolen from can survive without the item being purchased legitimately. Given the way our modern world is, to take without asking is not only morally wrong but not that intelligent.

NocturnalxHeart is correct though, it has become accepted to pass the blame for our behavior and this to be allowed as an excuse for it. I disagree with this and think we should all accept responsibility for our actions and choices.

Excelent thread my brother!

Well, first, yes there is a rule that you must ALWAYS have permission to feed from anyone but it still has both meanings for me. By that I mean I still have the feeling of power and of lust and being grateful when I feed. I can't help but to feel powerful and turned on, it always happens. Just because I'm not out there attacking people for their blood doesn't mean I am not in control.

moral codes of any sort are all based upon perception. you respond fully to moral codes when u believe in them all. many see what they want to see and act how they want to act. but all in all in the end, i think it goes on a person to person basis. like catholocism, not every catholic follows the moral codes set out by :God: but maybe they follow some of them.

No matter our culture or origine we are all with some base of moral, and we all are inlfuented, even if you live on a deserted island, alone and not comunication from outside, your morals gets influence and you do to, even if you say otherwise, no one is immunize from it.

good point crying mist... morals are something engrained in us from childhood. befroe we could even really comprehend things.

I'll need to let to coffee sink in and read it all over, but this is a great thread.

I do think that our morals are based on example and many other social factors, but it can be overridden in some instances by survival instinct.

Not being any kind of vamp, I would be interested to know if anyone has fed out of sheer need, and how they felt about it afterward.

If that's too much of a stretch on the topic, give me a swift kick in the rear.

That is an interesting thought, much of our morality is taught to us as children is it then possible to completely dismiss those teachings or do they linger on in the way we behave?

Taking by force, of course, it's by definition. A Vampire is one whom ruthlessly takes from another.

Hello, This is a excellant question.... Everything has boundries and so does everyone, It is in thier own opinion is what you mean by.... This leads to many of agruments, sorry I was of no help.....

this like all ethical questions can inly be answered by one person. you.

yes I have extremily strict views on feeding and what is allowed and what is not. But those are for me. I can not .. nor would I try to impose how I feel things should be done on another.

personally I think feeding without express permission for EACH feeding is akin to rape. but that is a personal belief.. I realize not all share and and of course they are free to do as they like.

for me it boils down to I will not feed on anyone in a way I would not wish to be fed on if I was to be fed upon.

I have only bitten my husband. I really don't have this issue as of yet, however, I feel everything portending to people is freewill. Cause and effect. Permission not obcession. The hunt, to me, is outdated.
I hope I was hitting the nail on the head, if I am misunderstanding, please tell me.

Excellent thread! Unfortunately, like all animals 9o matter how refined on teh outside) hide behind a mask. Vampires must feed to survive and some do so without the slightest compunction. Consequently, there are those who trea their meals as "re-orderdable"; which, might I add, is very efficient...I digresss.
I believe the hybrid (once bitten, twice fanged) vamps have relinquished all sense of morality for power. The Originals, have survided for centuries and still maintain their lifestylr without a mass murder left behind.

The "kiddies" just aren't ready for the "grown-up" table.

I think that this changes with each person since each person has thier own veiws on what is or is not ethical.