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How are Modern Vampires Different?
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CherryAdvocaat
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01:17:30 Oct 12 2007
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Just a little question, but in alot of threads I've read people saying about how modern vampires are almost completely different from the legends, and all history.
By this I mean the no reflection, hate for garlic, hate for sunlight, and in all other respects, being just like a normal human.

Why you you believe that modern vampires are so different from the historical ones? And if you believe this to be the case, at what point do you think these changes occurred?




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FelixFelix
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01:22:29 Oct 12 2007
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There is a new definition so to speak. The modern living vampire is a term used to describe psychic vampires or energy vampires or even blood drinking vampires who acknowledge that their human in every other respect. Some will say it's a lifestyle or a sex play some will say they feel ill or weak if they don't 'feed'. There's no solid evidence on the whole thing yet but it's clear that for most conversations, it's good to seperate the two.

Most modern living vampires don't equate themselves in any way with legend or fictional vampires. It's a seperate thing with a seperate definition (personally I find the use of 'vampire' in this case to be a huge reason for the confusion but I suppose it was a choice they made to use it).



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CherryAdvocaat
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01:24:53 Oct 12 2007
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Yeah I see what you mean, maybe it's not traditional vampirism at all??? But something else. Hmm.



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ToxicKitten
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01:37:37 Oct 12 2007
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were more with the new times, and gadgets...we can even walk int he sun....exept tho's are casues were they achully are alergic tot he sun.



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FelixFelix
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01:48:12 Oct 12 2007
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Actually when people start to adopt the trappings of the legendary vampires, that's when I worry for they're sanity. Of course as any human, allergies to sunlight are possible but not due to anything beyond normal reasons. Not because of their 'vampirism'.

I try to consider the two (legendary vampires and modern living vampires) as completely seperate things with no real relation to the other. It's easier to avoid the pitfals that come with the use of a fictional title.



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Callista
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01:53:10 Oct 12 2007
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Things that don't adapt, become extinct. Everything changes. For example, if a half a family of squirrels gets separated on a mountainous region while the rest stay on forest region, over time, the mountainous squirrels will come to look different, eat different things, and have a slightly different life style that the ones they were previously related to. Who is to say that vampires didn't evolve?



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RavenKnight
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02:26:11 Oct 12 2007
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true vampires or in vampire myth vampires needed blood to stay alive, they were or are immortal, they could not go into the sun ect, the new vampires of today do not need blood to live they are not immortal, and thay basically can do everything a true vampire can not, the only reason i think their are vampires today is because they want to be vampires and they want to live the lifestyle of vampires...



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chokeartist
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03:41:09 Oct 12 2007
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Maybe it's the belief of evolution. Modern vampires from so much diluting have lost traits that were strong with the ancients. Just a theory.



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ToxicKitten
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03:46:17 Oct 12 2007
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yea, i agree witht hat, things have to adapt, or they become exstinct...



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Roller
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03:50:13 Oct 12 2007
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I agree, things are always evolving around us to survive



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ObsidianFury
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03:50:55 Oct 12 2007
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i think that the modern term "vampire" is a far step from what the vampires of old may have been like. the vampires of today came to believe to blend in with the world of the light we had to adpet with the ways of the now. but in the same sence if we meet a vampire of old the would say the oppistie of us. but that is just a thought like most of u have said there is no pyschil proof of us.



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DixieChic
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04:35:23 Oct 12 2007
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Like everything else, this too has evolved. It is just a matter of our perceptions and as our perceptions evolve so do our idea of the vampire.



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RaineVampire
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12:43:45 Oct 12 2007
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well, i'm a vampire, but i'm not immortal (bummer!), i drink blood, but if i bite you i can't turn you... even when sun can be bad for me, it doesnt destroy me... thinks like that basically...



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Whispersinthewind
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14:04:01 Oct 12 2007
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To sum it up, pyschologically...

Modern vs Historic vampires are there to give those of whom claim to be trueblood to excuse themselves from such frailties as the stigmas of old. From the new names taking away from immortality...As a stigma, many believe too much in the normal media vampires that cast too much of a shadow. Criticisms come regardless of which you present yourself to be.

Which was the real deal? The historic frail vampire that was elergic to everything including the sun, or the cover of the truth that vampires are living things with an extention of life that carries a bit further than the average human, thus the term immortal emerged.

My point being, vampires always have been under the shadow of the historical, just a cover for hiding the truth. That is all. Let the "children of the night" make their own excuses as to why they are differant from the historic societies of the vamps, whilst trueblood watches with keen eyes.



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Gautham
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16:04:04 Oct 12 2007
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Modern vampires do not go up in flames when they go out on a nice sunny day....They do not fly around.They cannot change their form.They are not immortal.They are not scared of the cross or garlic.......



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FelixFelix
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17:20:12 Oct 12 2007
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I dare say that a modern living vampire would hardly be the 'evolved' species of the legendary immortal or fiction vampire.

Firstly, in order to evolve, you have to be alive and reproduce genetically with two distinct codes (either through two contributors - mom and dad - or through asexual reproduction where two different codes are created by the one 'parent'. Turning isn't reproducing genetically...it's infecting.

Secondly and more importantly, evolution has to make you stronger or the species dies out. I fail to see why a normal mortal human that feels weak without energy would be a step up from an immortal undead creature with supernatural strength and the ability to fly and shape change.



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FelixFelix
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19:00:33 Oct 12 2007
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Those who feel that the "Hollywood Stereotype" is harming the reputation of modern living vampires or creating prejudice against them, should seriously consider doing more to keep the line clear between the definition of a fiction or legendary vampire and their own.

Trying to connect the two through the ideas of evolution or saying the stories were misinterpretations of early living vampires, only creates the comparison that they try so hard to avoid between the undead vampire and what they consider their human metaphysical state of being.



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Valerie999
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21:14:46 Oct 12 2007
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I think that the idea of the modern vampitre is that they would have evolved to live in their circumstances. Their teeth would not be so obvious, perhaps to the point where they are not born with teeth and they have to sharpen them themselves. In the same way in the middle ages vampires were like the nosferatu and preyed on the fears of the proletariat who were simply considered crazy by anyone who would listenn. Modern vampires prey on the fears of modern man. They are successful and beautiful, seductive and silent. Before you know it they will be in your home feeding pudding to your children and you will never know...



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UpirLikhyj
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21:23:18 Oct 12 2007
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The explanation is, to my view, very simple. To put it quite bluntly:

"Modern vampires" are people desperate to find some way, any way, to have themselves identified with the "vampire" appellation and image. They believe that in so doing they gain power and influence over others in ways and to degrees not otherwise possible in their lives given their intellectual and/or emotional insecurity or immaturity. For this reason, as they cannot claim to possess any of the actual traits ascribed to the vampires of either fiction or history, they have had to create a sub-culture wherein almost any definition they choose can be accepted as a form of vampire.

As though this weren't enough to completely derail the meaning of the term "vampire," what I have also found in modern "vampire" communities (most prevalent here as well) is the unspoken understanding that basically says: If you allow me to be a "vampire" according to whatever definitions I choose, then I'll allow you to do the same. Thus, the term "vampire" today has lost almost all its value, all its significance. Hence the reason why "modern vampires" means absolutely nothing. Anyone from a goth girl sporting fake fangs to an axe-wielding, punk-ass teen serial killer are called "vampires" in the Media.

The term "Vampire" still is what it was and always will be... but the truth of what this definition really means can only be found through a careful study of the original historic Slavic accounts... or, frankly, through a simple reading of my own profile page summarizing same.




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FelixFelix
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21:40:05 Oct 12 2007
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Upir - you're breaking the code! lol

The truth is I don't care what other people believe they are but it's silly to get pissed off about the comparison to something so ingrained in the global awareness if you choose to call yourself the same name. Upir has the sense to work with the original term mostly so as to help better clarify that he isn't talking about the immortal undead vampire because he feels even that vampire is a bastardization of the original upir.



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UpirLikhyj
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21:57:02 Oct 12 2007
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FelixFelix... bingo! Exactly so!

Thank you for clarifying that very key point: the original "upir's" of old, before the popularization of the 17th-19th Century fictions, depict them not at all as the blood-drinking "Undead."

After all, lest we forget, the first actual documented usage of the term "Upir'" (from whence is directly and indisputably derived our modern term "vampir" ["vampire"]) is by a mortal Eastern Orthodox Christian priest... who in his own words called himself, "Popa Upir' Likhyj" ("Father Vampire Insatiable"). The term "Upir'" ("vampire") is directly derived from an earlier Slavic term meaning: "feaster." The verb to "feast" used here refers specifically to the very sensual and orgiastic wedding feasts of the day, a very sexual celebratory rite finding its far-earlier origins in... yes.... the original "Hieros Gamos" (Sacred Marriage) feasts of ancient Sumer that were later re-introduced in early Christian communities as the "Agape" orgiastic feast.

And finally, it was precisely against such sensual feastings that the Book of Jude in our common Bible condemns. Go ahead... open your New Testament up to the Book of Jude and read it. Therein described are the actual "vampires" of history, the descendants of the Fallen Angels, the instigators of the multiorgasmic rites re-introduced to Humankind via original Christianity's "Agape" feasts.

These were the original and historical vampires as they truly did ... and still do ... exist. A very very far cry indeed from what "Modern Vampires" are today considered to be.



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ceridwenlynn
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21:59:53 Oct 12 2007
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I agree with a few of the others who have posted. Things on this planet learn to adapt (or evolve if that's how you believe) in order to survive. All the species do it. Why not vampires as well?



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Kryptick
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22:10:28 Oct 12 2007
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Things differ over time. IF vampires were ever as history and legend portrayed(which I am unsure of) maybe the power which fuels the vampiric side of them has run thin over time.



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19:37:50 Oct 20 2007
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I think that a combination of authors imaginations and people creating outlandish theories for things that weren't understood at the time give rise to a lot of the original vampire legends.



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LoupGaroux
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20:01:03 Oct 20 2007
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I have been in debates, and told by friends of their wish for another word that describes what they do. They are equating themselves with Vampires because the legends are the ones that most closely fits.

Legends are influences by life, no matter how convoluted. What was once heretical can now be considered mainstream. Ones thoughts are given more freedom to be heard, without fear of repercussions.

I don't see it being possible that it is just a new thing, the way people use their psychic abilities or thirst for blood. I guess, to say so would be like saying that the science of evolution is somewhat skewed. A change like that, so fast, would be a miracle of said science, since it is unheard of. Given that fact, maybe "vampirism" is a human condition, and should be taken as valid.

The only thing that is "modern" about "vampires" is the way it is accepted. Can I be safe in saying that?



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Spellweaver
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21:01:00 Oct 20 2007
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Lets go on a limb here and go for the throat. Anyone who thinks they need to drink blood is afraid to admit they have a fetish or they may be low on iron. Neither one means you are a vampire. Too many people seem to have too much free time on their hands and they resort to fantasy. The word vampire has a cool ring to it and they wish to be associated to the myths. The myths are based on fears and not on facts. There is no real vampires so how can they evolved into modern ones? But the pull to fantasy is too strong and people readjust the term vampire to suit their own needs. Makeup terms like psychic vampire. Have to have that vampire word in it. Leech doesn't sound so cool. Modern Vampires seem to look and live as anyone else does or as they like. But they have this recording in loop mode playing in their head, "I'm a vampire, I'm a vampire, I'm a vampire."
Silly humans.



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Novus
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23:15:01 Oct 20 2007
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If there are "real" vampires, I believe they have evolved from the legendary vamps.
Although it is rue that we have no "proof" of their existence, we also lack "proof" that they do not.
Just my thoughts on the matter.



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darknessinabottle
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00:30:28 Oct 21 2007
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im a modern vampire. id rather use a different word but there really isnt any other good ones in our language.

the myth vampires are different cause their powers and abilities are blown so outta proportion that no one in modern times can believe they exist. so when i try to explain myself to other, most thing im a fuckin looney.



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XSilverxMoonxNightX
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00:44:20 Oct 21 2007
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ok well their different b/c of the energy they were said to posses in the ancient times, How in depth they were and it wasn't really a cultural thing they didnt dress a certain way and they didn't have a certain look and now with what hollywood has done with the Vampire, making a "MODERN DAY VAMPIRE" EVERYTHING HAS BEEN SKEWED and just plane WRONG "to me anyway!" same thing with witch craft! it's all SMOKE AND MIRRORS AND PPL THINK -well those who havn't seen in person, or have experinced it rather- THINK IT'S ALL ABOUT THE "PARLAR TRICKS" "TURN U IN TO A TOAD" lol!



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wicanman
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09:32:08 Oct 21 2007
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in my point of view vampires through the ages have adepted to garlic and sunlight and even church so they can cary out normal lives but that is no true for or in my point of view


LO OUT



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Whispersinthewind
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11:15:16 Oct 21 2007
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Uh, garlic was only for the fictional vampire...As the garlic was only to counter act the smell of the corpse alone. It was also used as a natural antibiotic, but who would have known this way back then? Aside from the witch's of course, lol

And don't make me turn you into a toad, LMAO!!



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IcarusMoonsight
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11:46:45 Oct 21 2007
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How can modern vampires be different? It's rather simple. Even the vampires of lore were unique to the culture they originated from. The modern definition of a vampire evolved from the old definitions and since the world is MUCH smaller than it used to be... it pretty much became a single idea that sprung from many that were slightly different, but shared some commonality such as the feeding on life-force, energy or blood.

Some vampire lore speaks to corpse feeders, but that has shifted or merged with ghouls, zombies and such.

First post, great topic. :)



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Callia
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12:03:45 Oct 21 2007
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For me being a modern Day Vampire the Sun doesnt hurt me but i dont like it i tend to choose to not go out in it to often id rather go out at night i feel more at Home sorta speak.. Garlic doesnt bother me and hell i love cooking with it .. To me being a Vampire is more of a Psychological Level It is who i am, i am a Strong minded Independent Woman and I work hard for all it is I have..I love being Dark and Drinking Blood .. Only things that can harm me are only if i choose to let them hurt meor That of which i cannot avoid such as Life..I am Not Immortal and Cannot make Another So but dang i wish i could and was..



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Antonius
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18:33:26 Oct 21 2007
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A modern vampire will be extremely challenged in the decades to come with all the modern technology in use. If they indeed are immortal, they're going to find it harder and harder to change their identities and blend into society as new high tech ID methods come into play. LOL, what if they can't appear on video? How would they get a photo ID? Maybe like the invisible man, they could put a coating of makeup on then they would be able to be seen by a camera or mirror? Hmmm...



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othis
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it is becouse we have had to change with the times or else we die other than that i doubt if thereever was a time that things in the myths ever had any effect on us ie crosses holey watter ect if one is to speak on a subject one must have a informed mind to any who clame vampier i would suggest you do your reasurch first



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artemka
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UpirLikhyj

I will agree that the eastern European term Upir is the root of the word vampire

I think it is fair to mention to everyone that the much quoted phrase поп Упир Лихый "father wicked upir" is strongly disputed.

It is a modern language typed translation of an old handwritten language of a text that no-one can locate.

The Russian term поп definitely means 'priest', no problem

The term Лихый makes no grammatical sense at all and has to be interpreted - some say it could mean 'evil or wicked' which is an odd thing for a priest to call himself - I now see that you have managed to make it mean insatiable ( although I can't see how ... wouldn't insatiable be Ненасытный? which is hellva jump from Лихый ) - others say that it simply means 'swift' which makes perfect sense considering the rest of the text is him basically boasting about the little time it took him to translate a book.

There is also much debate if the phrase is translated correctly and could have been an attempt by the Swedish priest Öpir Ofeigr to spell his name in Cyrllic. Öpir was indisputably working for the prince as a scribe who got that much quoted text at that time.

Of course in 1047 (the year the script was produced) the word "Upir" was not being used to describe a vampire being, it was a priest's name. In 1495 Upir was being used quite commonly as a first name, which would be odd if it had supernatural meaning at that time.

I am still not convinced that the two words written in 1047 had any relevance to vampires at all - if there is a link it is simply the same letters in the same order [its like making a case that spam mail was originally a pork product !]

I think it is fair to the readers of this site to have all the theories.

CherryAdvocaat

sorry about the diversion there LOL

to answer your question ...

the vampires of mythology did not hate garlic, have no reflection etc - those are mostly the vampires of Hollywood

The vampires of legend and myth did many things that humans simply can't do - shed skin, travel are balls of light, feed through holes in back of neck etc

The good people who take up the modern vampire lifestyle have to follow the more achievable styles of Hollywood




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Missmissy
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19:51:00 Oct 21 2007
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in todays society there is no tue vampire except those who try to copy the lifestyle of what they see on tv.



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vulcuran2
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20:42:02 Oct 21 2007
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I believe in evolution everything must evolve including vampires.



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DeadRosesForDeadHearts
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20:56:46 Oct 21 2007
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In some aspects i do beleive but for alot of those aspects i'm dont. I think the "Modern" vampire theory is just alot more beleiveible. We dont want to run away afraid from it so its been changed so we more or less relate to it.



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ashtyre
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00:56:04 Oct 22 2007
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this is my own personal belief that the vampires of today are still very much the same as in the past because thier spirits have traveled on into these lives...but because of how the world has become and the people in this world they need better ways to hide so they allow the bodies to become more human than vampire....



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Kontradiction
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02:30:47 Oct 22 2007
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we are not what hollywood has portrayed us to be, simply put.



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Kontradiction
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02:49:52 Oct 22 2007
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and hey; not to be *crass*, but.....who has *ever* "met" somebody that mets under holy water or shrieks when garlic is tossed in their linguine?

anyone? stories would be appreciated, folks....



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Catalunah
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04:50:16 Oct 22 2007
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I have to agree with Felix on this subject matter.


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LordRazr
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04:54:36 Oct 22 2007
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And I agree with Catalunah......go sis hehehe no but seriously there are alot of difference's



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UpirLikhyj
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artemka -


It was wonderful to see your post on the subject of who the first self-declared "vampire" was: namely "Father" Upir' Likhyj.

The point you make regarding the continued disputation of what the term Лихый (likhyj) actually meant at the time is, of course, of extreme importance. And even more so given that this approximates only the modern spelling of the term that in Russian today means "wicked," or "evil."

And as you also mentioned briefly, for the adjective likhyj (Лихый) to have meant "wicked" in the 11th Century would have been for this well-educated, obviously well-respected priest to have been declaring himself in writing as a "wicked" and "evil" man... which would have been to condemn himself before his own parishoners as under Satanic control, which would have seen him defrocked, disgraced, and perhaps even imprisoned or worse. After all, it's one thing for a priest to piously and humbly call himself "sinful." But never would a practicing priest call himself "evil" or "wicked." And I am certainly that whoever this 11th Century priest was, he was not at all so calling himself.

And then there is the fact that as languages change over time, the vocabularies and contexts thereof are always in a constant state of flux, as much then as today. After all, even so simple a term as "wicked," once considered one of the strongest adjective of language in condemnation of its subject, now just as often means exactly the opposite: something worthy of high praise as being synonymous with such terms in the modern vernacular as "awesome" and "rad." Of course, I am not at all suggesting by this that the original term likhyj (Лихый) might have meant the 11th Century equivalent of "cool." What I AM saying is that if we are to have any chance of understanding the probable meaning of this adjective in the 11th Century, we must look for other occurrences of this same word (Лихый) at or about the same time period.

And I have found two.

The most revealing of these two usages of Лихый within only 200 years of the 1047 CE appearance of same in the Upir Likhyj marginalia is found in the famous "Church Regulations of Yaroslav the Great" written, as best I can recall, in the mid 13th Century.

As found online here , Paragraph 8, the specific adjective Лихый is used. And as you can verify via your own translation, what this particular regulation seeks to regulate are those who attempt to abandon their spouses due to illness.

This regulation states, as best I can translate, that a man cannot put off a wife for another on the basis of an ailment except the wife should have an ailment deemed "Лихый" such as "blindness or long disease." And there's our only real clue: the term Лихый was used to describe illnesses such as "blindness" and "long disease." Thus, given the context in which this adjective was used in this particular regulation, it would most likely appear that the meaning of this term in the 11th Century more closely approximated such adjectives as "protracted," or "never-ending" such as are the ailments of blindness or "long disease." And remember that just because this adjective was used to describe in this instance physical maladies, this does not at all mean that such an adjective could only be used in reference to same. Thus, the only commonality held for both blindness and "long disease" as might most relate to this particular regulation prohibiting a man from re-marriage except in such cases would be the greater difficulties to him should the disease be "protracted," or "intractable," or "prolonged," or "never-ending," etc. All such modern terms seem to be fairly synonymous with what the term Лихый most likely meant at that time.

Hence, as have also likewise opined other Slavic researchers with whom I am in current correspondence, if Upir' does indeed mean "feaster" (as also concludes Dr. Bruce McClelland in his recent publication "Vampires and their Slayers"), then Upir' Likhyj (Лихый) would indeed be properly translated as "never-ending" "feaster"... or as I have more accurately translated, given the context: "insatiable feaster."

When this is combined with the root verb for feasting, pir, as then specifically related to the sexually charged, orgiastic wedding feasts of the day, the term would indeed have meant "sexual feaster."

Hence the reason why I translate Upir' Likhyj as "Insatiable Sexual Feaster."


As for your comments re: permitting all theories to be discussed... obviously I have never been of any contrary opinion thereto, nor would I ever be so long as there are equally convincing evidences for same.

Thank you again for your wonderful comments, artemka.



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BLOODLIFE
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23:06:34 Oct 22 2007
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did none of you read what felix wrote?!?!?!?!



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UpirLikhyj
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23:18:55 Oct 22 2007
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Yep... which basically said, though far more diplomatically, pretty much what I did a few entries after his. ;)

In short: Modern vampires have little if any relation at all to the fokloric vampires of Eastern Europe. Instead, today "vampires" are defined by almost any characteristic deemed "vampiric" as solely determined by Humans wanting desperately to be identified as such.



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UpirLikhyj
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23:24:23 Oct 22 2007
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FelixFelix's opinion on this was pretty much dead-on accurate... as usual.



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BLOODLIFE
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23:26:02 Oct 22 2007
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very well put!



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charskiss
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23:46:32 Oct 22 2007
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I have been reading alot of threads over vampires and general discussions. I believe in alot of things but to put terminology on something you can't even grasp if you weren't there is almost irrelevant, its all theory and I don't agree with most of them. But, this is a good discusion and find it quite interesting .



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artemka
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00:02:07 Oct 23 2007
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Bloodlife, yes I did ... Felix, as ever, raised an excellent point

I usually use the phrases 'vampire of myth', 'Hollywood vampire' and 'those who follow the modern vampire lifestyle' to make sure that people know which ones I am talking about

but I dispute whether the original vampire was Upir' Likhyj and that is very relevant to the whole of the background of the word


UpirLikhyj

You wrote It was wonderful to see your post on the subject of who the first self-declared "vampire" was: namely "Father" Upir' Likhyj.

I am sure that you dd not mean for that to read as if my subject was suggesting that the priest was the first self-declared vampire - because it doesn't

You are aware that my own research has taken a different turn and I think that the two words on which your whole argument stems Упир Лихый is the name of Öpir Ofeigr (the swedish priest / rune carver) and the word 'swift' or (possibly 'skilful')- which makes sense grammatically, historically and would be in context of the whole text in which those two words are mentioned.

If anything Upir is surely just the priest's name, how can it suddenly describe the man himself?

I mean why would a priest write a note that says "Here prince ... look at my work, lots of love 'father insatiable vampire' in those superstitious days he would have been signing his own death warrant.

It would make more sense for him to sign himself 'the swift father Upir' considering the rest of the note basically brags how quickly he had completed his work

I had a look through the The Slavic and East European Journal, Vol. 22, No. 4 "Heretics as Vampires and Demons in Russia " which has the name resurfacing as a peasant's name (Makarenko Upir') in Novgorod in 1495 - so it would be a hard thing to make the word Upir to mean 'feaster' or to have any supernatural meaning (who would call their son 'vampire' in those days)

I have had a look through that russian site that as you say is talking about ill and injured family - лихый недуг болит - would translate as a 'painful rapid ailment' wouldn't it ? I could manage 'evil' (in context) maybe but not insatiable

I can understand your frustration, ir, but I am sure that you can understand mine. I don't have all the references that you have to hand, but I do have some and I always try to apply the theory to the situation that would have happened at the time.

I have always known that you are in regular correspondence with other researchers who agree with you, but there are others who don't including Swedish Slavicist Anders Sjöberg who published the Öpir Ofeigr alternate theory.

It is clear that the debate could run on and on, we're probably both way off the mark ... I have, however found a disturbing note: during my research keep coming across mention of a 'prolander script' dated saying that the word vampir was written just like that in 944 AD, whic would appear to knock the whole etymology on its head - unfortunately this was a hoax that was tried on this site [stopped by me :)] and wikipedia, and is now running around the internet as 'fact'

Whatever the outcome Sir, its always a pleasure to argue the facts ... unfortunately, its very late here and my language advisors (LOL) want to go to bed

apologies to anyone who got bored halfway through that lot





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panther22
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00:41:47 Oct 23 2007
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I have been reading alot of threads over vampires and general discussions. I believe in alot of things but to put terminology on something you can't even grasp if you weren't there is almost irrelevant, its all theory and I don't agree with most of them. But, this is a good discusion and find it quite interesting .



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mystikalmoon15
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03:33:40 Oct 23 2007
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There are different breeds of vampires just as there are humans......some vampires will live very long lifes if they don't get a disease or get killed...... I think th old adag of garlic is false because I feel that garlic would not harm them. I also feel that sunlight may not bother some. I think there has been a big misconception as to who and what vampires are. People are afraid of things that they do not understand. I also fel some of them may not age as fast as other people but that they still are capable of dying. While alive they may have certain abilities that others may not have though.



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UpirLikhyj
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07:06:42 Oct 23 2007
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Artemka -

Thank you for your always erudite response.

You have well stated that this debate is a far-reaching one and will entertain, perplex, and fascinate Slavic scholars for many years to come.

If I might respond to your latest entry re: the actual definition of Лихый (Likhyj), were this adjective to mean "swift" as you have argued, then its usage in the "Church Regulations of Yaroslav" from the 1200s CE would not have made sense. In that document so contemporary to the 1047 CE usage of "Likhyj", this adjective is used to describe the type of illness for which a man can lawfully divorce his wife. The examples given for this type of illness are specifically "blindness" and "long disease." Neither of these have as a common characteristic their being "swift." Blindness can occur both swiftly or slowly. Long-lasting disease, by very definition, is anything but "swift" and likewise can be contracted both swiftly and slowly. Thus, "likhyj" (Лихый) could not have meant "swift" at that time nor earlier in 1047 CE. Instead, the only definition that does fit this 13th Century usage would be something akin to "prolonged" or "never-ending" (which both "blindness" and "long disease" most certainly are).

As regards your mention of "Upir'" as being a proper name, the 1495 CE occurrence you give is over 400 years after this first-ever usage of the term in recorded history. By then, "Upir'" could very well have become an actual name. However in 1047 CE when first this name appears, no such personal name is found anywhere else. The explanation is not too difficult to imagine. Prior to becoming names, one was often identified by their occupation (Smith, Miller, Shoemaker, Taylor, etc.) or by some other identifying feature that set them apart from others, be it color (Black, White, Green, Brown, etc.) or description (Small, Short, Longfellow, etc.) or place of origin (Scott, York, etc.). And so also, would it appear, was the case with "Upir'" prior to the vilifications that later demonized the name and changed it to "vampir."

As regards your argument that calling himself "insatiable vampire" would have had him killed, I would agree were this what would have been understood at that time. However, I fear you are forgetting the importance again of historical context. In 1047 CE, the term "vampire" as we understand it did not exist, nor did it hold any supernatural meaning whatsoever. As I translated earlier, the term Upir' Likhyj merely meant "Insatiable Feaster." And this could very easily have been understood or explained has having reference to this priest's obvious "feasting" upon the words of Christ and the prophets whose books he translated. This would have had no sexual or immoral connotation at all, much less a supernatural or demonic one. Only this priest and those like him would have understood its far deeper meaning. And what leads us to believe that, indeed, a far deeper meaning was intended? Why the very fact that apparently centuries later this deeper and far more sensual meaning was understood given that within a few centuries the term Upir' had by then been demonized and vilified and all those to whom this now-horrific term was applied were feared by females (particularly) and hunted down and killed. And through later ages, the name itself changed from "Upir'" to "Vampyr," which latter term we know today in its Anglicized form: "Vampire." Thus, today, the term "Vampire" is the very antithesis of its original namesake: an apparently humble, well-educated, mortal Christian priest working as a translator under Vladimir II of Novgorod.


Moving on... yes, I have heard the theory before of this Christian priest having been Öpir Ofeigr, also a priest at approximately this same time period. However, as we both know, the evidence for this is wholly circumstantial and extremely tenuous at best. Thus while I find the theory somewhat intriguing, yet I find it too poorly evidenced to be worthy of serious scholarly consideration.

As always... fascinating stuff for those truly desiring to unlock the historical truths behind the myths. It is a delight to discuss with another likewise interested and similarly educated these subjects of such intriguing perplexity.

Artemka, -- Thank you again!



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Theshining1
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07:15:02 Oct 23 2007
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in these forums i will always learn new things



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UpirLikhyj
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07:36:49 Oct 23 2007
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For the benefit of those reading, in comparing "Modern Vampires" with the origins of those later vilified as "vampires," the first-ever reference to any such was that found written in 1047 CE by a priest who called himself "Father Upir' Likhyj." While we pretty much know that the term "Upir'" is derived from the Slavic verb "pir" meaning "to feast," yet the adjective thereafter defies translation given that this word no longer exists. In Cyrillic, the last word "Likhyj" is written thusly: лихый

As this word no longer exists in Modern Russian, our only hope of understanding this adjective is via the discovery of other occurrences of this word in Russian documents contemporary with this 1047 CE usage (later found copied in a 1499 CE Bible). The only such usage I have found for such that sheds light on this are the "Church Regulations of the Great Prince Yaroslav" written in the 1200's CE. Therein is found this passage:

Аще мужь оженится иною жоною, с старою не роспустився, мужь той митрополиту у вине, а молодую в дом церковный, а с старою жити. Аще же не лихый недуг болит: или слепота, или долгая болезнь,- про тое не пупустити; такоже и жене нелзе пустити мужа.

In English, as best as I could have translated, this means as follows:

"If a man marries another woman without divorcing his previous wife, the man is guilty before the metropolitan, but the new bride must go into the church, while he [(continues to) live] with the old [wife]. However, if then there is no Лихый (there's the adjective!) blindess or a long illness/disease, then there is no reason for separation; these [reasons] never allow a wife to leave a husband."

Whatever definition works best here is the best clue we have as to what it meant when this "Father Upir'" penned such an adjective as describing himself. The only characteristic that seems to best fit the two examples given of "blindness" and "long illness/disease" as relates to what would permit a man to re-marry would seem to be "prolonged" or "interminable (never-ending)."

Thus the reason why I translate Upir' Likhyj to mean: "never-ending feaster," or in other words: "Insatiable Feaster."

Should anyone find a better possible definition for likhyj (лихый), I welcome any such via direct messages to me so as not to further deviate from topic this forum thread.



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UpirLikhyj
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07:41:54 Oct 23 2007
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Grrr.... a paste error occurred.

Here's the complete English translation of the aforementioned passage:

""If a man marries another woman without divorcing his previous wife, the man is guilty before the metropolitan, but the new bride must go into the church, while he [(continues to) live] with the old [wife].[?] However, if then there is no Лихый ailment, such as (either?) blindness or a long-lasting illness/disease, then there is no reason for separation; these [reasons] never allow a wife to leave a husband."



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artemka
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10:39:20 Oct 23 2007
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UpirLikhyj,

sorry if this reply is a little more dumbed down than the last, my advisors are at work !

You're looking at two texts that were probably written in Old Church Russian. No-one can find Upir Likhyj's note to be absolutely sure.

If I understand it right, some of he characters in Old Church Russian are not on a modern a Cyrillic keypad. Someone attempting to copy the original script with a keypad (to get it on the net) will have to use the nearest approximate key. There is no guarantee that two typists will use the same approximation - that, I feel, is why the word Likhyj is a mystery to anyone Slavic.

Until the original texts are found the whole discussion could be based on a typo !

I might be wrong but wouldn't лихый недуг болит translate as 'swift' so ... 'sudden painful disease' ... but, as I say, without the original text we are only guessing - it could be a different word to the 1047 document in the original form.

I can see now what you're saying about job titles forming a name, after nearly a year of debating this with you, I now see what you're getting at !!! Yes, it could be his name and his description - this would also account for the term being used as a common name a few hundred years later.

Now all we have left to do is make the jump between the priest Upir and the later use of the word as a vampire. I don't have my notes here but just because a word is spelt the same (assuming no typo) doesn't mean it is a cognate [hope that's the right word]

There surely has to be a connection otherwise all words spelt the same would be related eg Spam eMail would originally be a pork meat.

I also think that limiting a discussion to the 'english' word 'vampire' to describe supernatural critters is bad - it stops the discussion and comparison of hundreds of blood-drinking, human-preying, feared, risen from the dead, rice-counting beings simply because they're in a different language - but as soon as we try and use a common term 'vampire' to help us talk about them, we are directed to go back to the root of the word we use and stop.

As always, Sir, a great debate



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VISilentVIDesecrationVI
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13:40:33 Oct 23 2007
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I think that real and true pure vampyres are no longer real. I think that what we have today are weak sycophants who think to style themselves with the name vampyre and they know nothing about what a real vampyre is. Real vampyres are something not often found and I don't think there are any real vampyres on this site. You can hate me for it, and say that I'm wrong, but if you have no proof that you're real, then don't waste my time saying you're a vampyre. I will admit that I'm wrong if someone could prove to me that they aren't perversions of the name vampyre.



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UrsaMorbier
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14:39:31 Oct 23 2007
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I see what you mean,



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artemka
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19:24:16 Oct 23 2007
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VISilentVIDesecrationVI

a very interesting point of view ...

The word vampyr (vampyre) that you use is slightly younger than the word vampir (vampire) by about 7 years - the first use of each is really, really well documented.

One of the problems that you will have is that the word 'vampyre' is now used by some people to mean the modern vampiric lifestyle to separate them from the vampire of legend and myth - one of the problems is that the adoption of that term wasn't taken by everyone so confusion continues.

Some people will tell you that they are a vampyre - because they are ! - they have adopted the term to represent the modern vampiric lifestyle.

You would have to clarify what you think of as an 'original vampire' - there is a huge timeline to consider - it depends where you personally have decided to stop going back to :

If you think of a vampire as an insatiable russian orthodox priest, you have gone back to 1047 and a possible beginning of the word vampire.

If you think of a vampire as a blood drinking, no garlic, no reflection, creature of the night - you have gone back to the concepts first introduced by Bram Stoker's fictional Dracula

If you think of a vampire as a glowing ball of light or a skin shedder, you have gone back even further

Everyone is using the word to represent something different, this is what causes so many problems on these forums

Of course, restricting yourself to the one term 'vampire / vampyre' really cuts down on your research into a fascinating project



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DemonicVampireDragon
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19:25:05 Oct 23 2007
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the clothes they wear



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SMiTTeNKiTTeN
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20:47:30 Oct 23 2007
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I think it is just the times we are living in that make things so much more different now they don't have to hide in the shadows so much now



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