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zombies, more of a science, then a movie.
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cryingmoon
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13:38:35 Oct 28 2007
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this is a artical i read and found quite instreasting , when discussing voodoo and zombies, what is peoples opions on how they are created ?

PASSAGE OF DARKNESS: THE ETHNOBIOLOGY OF THE HAITIAN ZOMBIE
By Wade Davis. Chapel Hill, The University of North Carolina Press. 1988

Review by Bob Corbett March, 1990

In June, 1989 I attended a seminar in Port-au-Prince on zombification. During the discussion I raised the question to the 40 or so people in attendance, had any one of them every seen a zombie "bab pou bab," the Haitian equivalent of face to face. Everyone had. So I randomly questioned one person about her experience. It turned out it wasn't she herself who had seen the zombie, but her first cousin. The next person hadn't actually met a zombie, but his aunt had. Someone else's father, another's best friend and so on around the room. In the end not one single person was able to tell a tale of having actually, personally been face to face with a zombie.

Are there really zombies in Haiti? Wade Davis devotes two long sections to this question. He first looks at the popular views and then explores cases where there have been some attempts to carefully and more scientifically determine the status of suspected cases. His key candidate for zombiehood is Clairvius Narcisse. In spring, 1962 Narcisse "died" at the Albert Schweitzer Hospital in Deschapelles, Haiti. His death was verified by the hospital staff. 18 years later Narcisse turned up alive and well, and claimed to be an escaped zombie.

Having thus satisfied himself that it is likely there are zombies in Haiti, PASSAGE OF DARKNESS is Davis' fascinating and provocative attempt to explain how zombies are made.

The extraordinary thesis he puts forward is, as the subtitle tells us, an ethnobiological story. That is, on Davis' account, what makes zombies is the interplay between certain features of the culture of Haiti and the use of drugs. However, neither the cultural phenomena alone, nor the poisons alone can account for zombies. There are even larger historical issues at stake:

"Evidence suggests that zombification is a form of social sanction imposed by recognized corporate bodies--the poorly known and clandestine secret Bizango societies--as one means of maintaining order and control in local communities." (p. 3.)
The essence of Davis' claim is this:

there are zombies
however, there are actually very very few of them
they are created in part by a poisoned powder
however, they are created in part by the effects of the culture
zombies are created when a person first falls into a death-like trance which is both drug and culturally induced
then is revived and kept under the control of the houngan by the use of other drugs
zombies are created by Voodoo priests who are members of the Bizango secret societies
Bizango societies constitute a totally secret and hidden other government beneath the surface of Haitian society
zombification is not random nor for profit or personal vendetta
zombification is the ultimate punishment to someone who has seriously violated the law of the Bizango society
These ten propositions are the essence of his conclusions. They constitute a story which has not been widely discussed before Davis (though Davis himself cites the important ground work done by the Haitian anthropologist Michel Laguerre on the secret societies).

Some are clearer than others, so I'll elucidate a few of the less clear:

Davis claims there is a poisoned powder which causes the target person to fall into a death-like trance. It was to seek this drug that originally got Davis the assignment to track down the zombie poison. His sponsors reasoned that such a drug must exist, and if they could find it might have valuable pharmacological possibilities as an alternative to currently popular but unsafe anesthetics.
The great controversy which Davis' book has caused is mainly connected to his claim that the chemical tetrodotoxin, gotten from the puffer fish, is the primary active ingredient in this "zombie powder."
However, what seems to be universally missed by Davis' critics, or simply ignored, is his claim that the powder alone cannot adequately account for nor make a zombie. Davis describes the "set and setting" which is required for the powder to work. "...set, in these terms, is the individual's expectation of what the drug will do to him or her; setting is the environment--both physical and, in this case, social--in which the drug is taken." (p. 181.)
Thus the poison in the powder, which is a psycho-active drug (one whose effect is related to specific personal psychological factors), will have different effects depending on who one is, what one's socialization and expectations are. In the case of Haitian members of the Bizango sect, they have been socialized to recognize the possibility and process of zombification and are psychologically attuned to the appropriate effects of the drug, i.e. zombification.
Davis' book presents a strong hypothesis concerning the why of zombification. In a country so drastically poor as Haiti, with labor costs for farm hands only being about $1.00 a day, one cannot account for zombification on the grounds of seeking cheap labor. One might imagine zombification as a way to get at enemies, but the violence of Haiti's history suggests much simpler ways of solving that problem. Davis' hypothesis is perhaps attractive simply because it is so grand! He tells the story of a long history of secret societies stretching back into the earliest days of slavery. Escaped slaves, the maroons, living deep in the mountains, created an alternative society, more African than Western. These societies brought with them the remembered lore of Africa, including knowledge of the use of local poisons. The poisons were used as tools of social control within the maroon communities. After independence and the radical split between the life in the rural areas and the cities, these maroon social organizations became the secret Bizango societies, and zombification is, effectively, their death sentence for serious violations of the code of conduct required in Bizango.
Davis' thesis in PASSAGE OF DARKNESS is provocatively and persuasively argued. Unlike his more popular account, THE SERPENT AND THE RAINBOW, which I reviewed a few issues ago, Davis' argument is careful and measured. Gone is the Indiana Jones bravado of the earlier work; gone is the "I've done it all alone" arrogance. Davis' use of sources and his excellent bibliography are themselves alone worth the price of the book!
But the critics don't think too much of Davis' work. Nearly all reviewers of his two books have been quite cool towards them. More seriously, important figures in the scholarly circles of pharmacological literature have taken Davis to task. In an article in Science magazine, April 15, 1988 called: "Voodoo Science," William Booth reports on the widespread criticism which has been heaped on Davis.
Critics argue that Davis grossly exaggerated what he had found in the powder and that he had exaggerated, if not lied, about the chemically active properties of the powders he brought back.
Certainly Davis was indiscreet in celebrating his victory of discover before adequate scientific evidence was published to support his findings. However, two things must be said in Davis' defense.
First, he was very careful in PASSAGE OF DARKNESS to respond to Kao and Yasumoto's criticisms of him. In a footnote on p. 194 he answers their primary objection. Their objection was two fold. First, that Davis reported as evidence a "personal communication" from researcher Rivier, which Rivier now claims was never intended as an official opinion. Secondly, they charge that the sample didn't have enough tetrodotoxin to do anything to humans.
Davis certainly should not have reported the preliminary oral confirmation (which later turned out to be false), as scientific fact. This was an error without doubt. But, Davis argues in the text that to study the powder alone, to study the amounts of tetrodotoxin alone is a mistake. This for several reasons:
These powders are made as magical portions by the houngans (Voodoo priests). They are not made according to any exact formula. Any given portion may not work. They do them by trial and error. Some are too strong and kill the victim outright. Others are too weak and have no effect. A few work. Davis is quite explicit about this: "All that the formula of the powder suggests is a means by which an individual might, under rare circumstances, be made to appear dead." (p. 181.)
Davis devotes a huge portion of the book to argue the psychobiological hypothesis that the power/poison is only one ingredient, albeit a necessary part of zombification. Davis' critics completely ignore this whole thesis and pounce on the tetrodotoxin samples as the only issue to be considered.
In response to the criticism of Yasumoto and Kao that in the infamous "sample D," the only one of his eight powders which contained tetrodotoxin, that the amount was insignificant, Davis replies:
"Critically, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Of greater interest is the empirical observation that the bokor {houngans who are doing the zombification} recognize the toxicity of these fish {puffer fish} and include them in the powders, and that at certain times of the year these fish contain a toxin known to have induced apparent death."
My argument is not that Davis has indeed found the zombie poison. I don't know that one way or the other. But, the vehemence with which he has been attacked seems to belie something deeper going on. There are several hypotheses which suggest other explanations for the heat he has taken.

Davis puts forward a psychobiological hypothesis. The subtitle of the book is quite up front about this (The ethnobiology of the Haitian zombie). His critics are mainly biologists and pharmacologists. Ethnobiology is a suspicious field to them. The whole perspective of ethnobiology, as the name indicates, is that cultural factors, not merely biological ones, account for many responses to psychoactive drugs (drugs whose effects are tied to the psychological state of the subject). Thus it would seem that some of the critics' vehemence is related to their distrust of the entire field of science which Davis represents.
There is no question that Davis' popular book THE SERPENT AND THE RAINBOW is an arrogant and aggravating book. Davis postures as the great explorer invading Haiti's secret societies in just a very few visits to Haiti. The whole story, as told in that book, stretches the credulity of most readers. What is especially suspicious as both books detail, but which the much more carefully documented PASSAGE OF DARKNESS makes so clear, is that virtually all that Davis claims can be learned from his impressive use of existing sources. Davis is, indeed, a masterful researcher. But, is he the intrepid explorer he presents himself to be? That is the question, and the source of aggravation to the more academic critics.
Davis greased the way toward the powders he received by paying informants and houngans alike. This raises two sorts of objections and hackles: first that such payments are unethical behavior, secondly, that he may well have been bilked, especially given the low levels of tetrodotoxin found in his samples.
Davis addresses these objections head on, even in somewhat angry terms.

"To be sure, it cost money, and there is an odd and unwarranted sense among some ethnographic fieldworkers that data obtained by financial remuneration is somehow tainted. This is, in general, an arrogant proposition, as it assumes that the informant has nothing better to do than provide free information to a foreign investigator. In Haiti, such an attitude is not only unjust but counterproductive, for within the Vodoun society to do something for nothing is generally seen as 'less a manifestation of generosity than as a sign of gullibility, is less a virtue than a weakness' (Murray). The Haitians themselves pay the bokor for his knowledge and powders, and so should the ethnobiologist." (p. 5.)
Lastly, any critic, perhaps especially myself, will find it hard to forgive Davis for allowing his text THE SERPENT AND THE RAINBOW to be used for the horrible movie of the same name. Davis, himself, decries the nonsensical and negative image of Haiti that previous zombie movies have given. The jacket cover of PASSAGE OF DARKNESS claims that "Davis demystifies one of the most exploited of folk beliefs, and one that has been used to denigrate an entire people and their religion." I've seen a few of these "denigrations," and, indeed, they are terrible. But it's hard to imagine that any of them hold a candle to the film version of THE SERPENT AND THE RAINBOW. Davis can argue that he didn't make the film, but only sold his book to Hollywood. But, if one is a lover of Haiti and wants to genuinely "demystify" her to the American public, then selling the film rights without any concern for the outcome of the film, doesn't seem like a very sincere way to do the job!




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cryingmoon
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13:39:43 Oct 28 2007
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http://www.webster.edu/~corbetre/haiti/bookreviews/davis1.htm

here is the web site address



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cryingmoon
cryingmoon

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13:42:01 Oct 28 2007
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i find that this artical is very instreasting, there have been reports in new orleans of people claiming to be in a drug indunced zombie states after years of bing dead to every one



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Namir
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17:23:09 Oct 28 2007
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An interesting post.
Need to submit this in the articles section.

Sahahria edit: Actually, no- this was not written by a VR member. The only place it can be listed would be in the database if it meets the guidelines of being about Vampires.



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cryingmoon
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18:08:30 Oct 28 2007
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what i kind of wonder if they are in a induanced state can they turn violante, not like the movies , but you know hard to manage



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CryingMist
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18:46:37 Oct 28 2007
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I,ve heard of the drug that can "create" zombie, some sort of powder that make the person become dead then come back as a zombie, saw a show on canalD here in canada it was a documentairy, it was in french, so not usre if it has the same in english. But is showed that many scientific tried to found out and it took them long to even get a small sample of the drug to test it. But it was nto enought to actually do the test.



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Ashesofruin
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18:52:42 Oct 28 2007
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This drug reminds me of the drug that Shakespeare used in Romeo and Juliet.

As far as I have known zombies, by the definition of fictional stories, do not/have never existed. Through research I did a few years back I found the first reported case of Zombie-fication, during a funeral a corpse in it's open face coffin sat up and moaned causing onlookers to believe that it had arisen from the dead. Truth be told it was merely gas being released from the corpse that caused this affect.

Very interesting information, thank you.



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platinumwitch
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03:15:47 Oct 29 2007
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Wade Davis was first known from his book The Serpent and the Rainbow where he first examined the use of fugu toxin as the main ingredient in zombification powder. It is also used in medicine to induce paralysis for delicate surgery.



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Whispersinthewind
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04:49:43 Oct 29 2007
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If and I mean a big IF, someone was turned into a zombi, for the creation of a voodun ritual, that person being under a very strict drug which induces such effects of brain slowdown, that they would tend to act as though they were zombi. But, they would not die, just a serious state of vegetation but still having motor functions.

In this state, the voodun leader would call out directions for this localized zombi to act upon. More often then not, they were sent to seek out individuals and either stalk them, or act within the guidelines of such ritual as a key player as a pawn to the voodoo diety Bawan Samadi.

A bit like the movie: Serpent and the Rainbow.

As there is no public record of this zombi potion, since it is a very well guarded secret of that culture, then the only diagnosis would come from the individual that was zombied. But as the extensive brain damage after such potion, they would tend to live their lives as no more than a vegetable for the rest of their natural lives.

Point in case, if someone did mention they were indeed said zombi, they were telling a very big fib. As no one would physically admit to being a zombi without the reprocussions of the oath they took before the ritual began.



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darknessinabottle
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07:10:24 Oct 29 2007
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i know all bout this. anyone who has watched serpant and the rainbow knows bout this.



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Whispersinthewind
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09:43:00 Oct 29 2007
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I guess you would say you know all about vampires just by watching Interview with the vampire too, I suppose????



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TwistedWhispers
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12:59:05 Oct 29 2007
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LOL, good point soulshroude. As for zombie's the only info I have on them is from that movie 'the serpent and the rainbow' where they used a mixture of herbs to induce a zombie like state on a person, not actually bring a corpse back to life.

This is not a subject i've really looked into as the whole thing just creeps me out!!



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Destiney
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14:16:41 Oct 29 2007
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Look up what chemicals are in the power that is thrown into the eyes of the Hatian Zombie... There are several different forms of LSD. I think I'd go into a zomie-like trance myself.
If you like Zombies, you should pick up Max Brooks "Zombie Survival Guide" it's funny, but there are some really interesting points in it as well.



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Wolfscout
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17:36:59 Oct 29 2007
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Very interesting thread.
Wonders if they ever decided to try to do the mindset and drug experimentation on someone outside of the sect.



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platinumwitch
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23:23:08 Oct 29 2007
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From Wikipedia

The pufferfish is also reported to be one of the main ingredients used in voodoo to turn people into zombies. According to ethnobotanist Wade Davis, the pufferfish is the key ingredient in the first step of creating a zombie, where the tetrodotoxin creates a 'death-like' state. In the second step, hallucinogens are used to hold the person in a will-less zombie state. There was considerable skepticism to Davis's claims; he was widely accused of fraud, and there has been no final statement as to the veracity of his findings.[1]



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LadyBloodMoon
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00:53:01 Oct 30 2007
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there are spells to bring the dead back but I would lean toward the scientific way



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CerbsX
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01:31:46 Oct 30 2007
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I myself do not believe in zombies but if they have come up with a way it would be science.



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Sungmanito
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03:03:41 Oct 30 2007
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definately a scientific thing.



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Whispersinthewind
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05:53:24 Oct 30 2007
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The zombi Survival Guide is in my library, an amusing terrific read, but some of the historical value stories makes one think if those cases presented were factual.

There is a big differant between an actaul Zombi, dead being brought to life by chemical inducing formulae or other, and the individual who chokes on powder blown into the face...This produces only a zombi "like" state.

If you do read the Zombi Survival Guide, the first couple of chapters details what a zombi actually is. In its truest sense. Which is a walking flesh eating corpse.



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Rictus
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19:03:49 Oct 31 2007
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Not to be the wet blanket on really fun stuff but Read this



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Rictus
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19:07:03 Oct 31 2007
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And yes, I know there are similarities in both articles. There have only been a few actual studies done on this that have a reasonable conclusion. The rest is conjecture.



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cryingmoon
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19:09:41 Oct 31 2007
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Maximus


how could you be a wet blanket?
that was a wonderfull link you provided, i like what i even read on ghosts, thats why i posted this, i dought there could ever be a zombie like dawn of the dead or something like that, but possible drugs that mess with they system



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Whispersinthewind
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12:05:14 Nov 04 2007
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Extremely well picked link, and to notice thereof that the ex-Voodoo priest did not break his oath about the powder, only that it derived from said puffer.



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darkendvixen
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20:22:51 Nov 04 2007
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Zombies are more of a science fictional thing instead of an acctual thing. I do belive that people could find a drug that cause a very dead like sleep and then that person wakes from it, and of course their coloration and such would be off. But yeah acctual zombies in my book, fictional.



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04:01:02 Nov 05 2007
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I don't believe in "zombies" I do agree that man can come up with drugs to produce zombie like qualities but once a physicall being is dead I don't believe it can come back to life



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CLHunter
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04:20:18 Nov 05 2007
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The science behind creating an individual that seems to be in a zombie-like state is fierce. But, here is some of the information I found in passing when I did research on this topic a few years ago.

Puffer fish: known for the neurotoxin tetradotoxin...nasty lil critter that can induce paralysis

Datura stramonium: known as the zombie cucumber, it is a plant that can cause fever, hallucinations, and amnesia

Bufo marinus and Osteopilus dominicensis: a toad and a frog that secrete nasty lil toxins

belladonna: a pretty lil plant with some crazy hallucinogenic compound

and I could continue with the list....there are tons of plants and animals that secrete unique and sometimes even deadly chemicals.

If mixed correctly, the person could fall into a cataleptic state (a real issue that has been documented). Assuming the person does not die from the intense amount of chemicals in the system, upon digging up the body...one could assume the victim would have some insane amnesia and freakishly wierd "dreams" to deal with.

Check out article 246 of the Haitian Penal Code (it outlaws the creation of zombies)

Are zombies real? Not the hollywood style...but a person could be put into a zombie-like state...in my opinion.



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Novus
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21:45:08 Nov 05 2007
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I believe that zombies do not rise from the dead as in the movies, but that the voodoo zombie is real and that certain chemicals and drugs do create, zombie like people.



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toxic13
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22:16:27 Nov 05 2007
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zombie: (zom'bee) a human brought back by voodoo aka they got poisoned by the medica man of the tribe

the undead these are the creature of the movies "not to be mistake for a voodoo zombie" and are ceated by a strian of mulaireya

please for give me if this sound mean srry
Toxic13



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Mystic
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22:36:50 Nov 05 2007
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I beleive that there are drugs used to induce the zombie type affects of a breathing, living person but do not beleive the movie versions of the zombies by no means. But there are many cultures that do beleive in the zombiefication of another and make it a vital part of thier rituals.



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MOONLITDREAM
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23:58:21 Nov 05 2007
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i have heard of the drugs that they use to put people to sleep and they seem dead to everyone but they are really still alive and after they are buried the person who gave them the drug goes and digs them up messes up their brain and when people sees the person walking around in a daze they automatically think they are looking at a zombie



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RavenKnight
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04:05:25 Nov 06 2007
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To be honest the only zombies that i believe in are the ones that people who practise voodoo make with the herbs and drugs, and really they are not even the walking dead because they are not dead they just had their heads messed up by nut cases...



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specterdrake
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05:40:59 Nov 06 2007
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i saw a show on history channel about real life zombies. it has to do with mixing a powder with human bones and blowfish toxins. the toxin from the fish causes paralasis and the aperance of death...the the person that administered the poison went to the graveyard and unearthed the presumed dead person and revived them and forced them into slave labor



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LordRazr
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20:33:13 Nov 06 2007
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There was a movie a long time ago called The Serpent and the Rainbow and it was about a toxin that did iduce the appareance of death yet the person was not really dead, I do believe it was a factual story, yet it is all sciencitific to me.



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cryingmoon
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23:19:33 Nov 25 2007
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what i wonder if they were given a toxing that did this to them was there some that could stop it if they were feed something or or around a certian kind of smell



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xLuthienxSilimaurex
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02:00:04 Nov 26 2007
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There are many toxic plants and animals that can induce a coma state, making you look like your dead, when in fact your not your alive and well, I am sure there is a shell fish that can create the state like an allergic reaction just can't think of it right now lol.



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LordRazr
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00:09:39 Nov 27 2007
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yep I think it was some kind of toxic



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sumkindamonsta
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08:17:18 Nov 27 2007
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there are a lotsa good drugs to make you see things. but iv never seen nor heard of nebody seeing zombies even after a night of acid and opium



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sumkindamonsta
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08:22:55 Nov 27 2007
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sorry i miss read!!!
i guess that 400 years ago people would have been of limited knowledge and would be fooled by leesoned states of consiousness caused by toxins and would think evil at nething they couldnt explain



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LordRazr
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14:16:26 Nov 27 2007
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well 400 yrs ago they did not know much of anything...



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LovesEternalDeath
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18:46:26 Nov 27 2007
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I think I remember watching something reguarding a man who had "died" and then returned to his village and was considered a "zombie". I can't remember all the details, but I do remember that it occurred somewhere that either was or is extremely like Haiti. *thinks* Yeah, I definitly don't remember the details though.

Anyways, moving on...

I think that the idea of a drug being used in conjunction w/ the "setting" (or a group of people who believe the drug will have X effect) is possible. Have I ever personally seen it happen...No. That doesn't mean much though. I don't see why science couldn't be applied to the idea of zombification and made a reality.



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cryingmoon
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19:01:11 Dec 06 2007
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hmm



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MOONLITDREAM
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19:05:56 Dec 06 2007
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zombies are documented as real then correct ?



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XxPriscillaxX
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22:10:45 Dec 06 2007
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No such beast the drugs given wear off then what you got one very pissed off person wanting to get even with the person the poisoned or drugged them so.....One must believe in these forms of voodoo or magic or it to work in the first place



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MoonRainbow1
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22:56:29 Dec 06 2007
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Zombies to me is more scientific than real. I believe you can induce a zombie like state but actually coming back from the dead and eating human flesh is pure hollywood.



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Irony
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22:57:16 Dec 06 2007
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Pretty interesting article, food for thought:) Thanks!



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Theshining1
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23:03:14 Dec 06 2007
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idont believe in the tv zombie but i can believe it could come from some kind of street drug that can make a person into a zombie



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VW39
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02:35:20 Dec 07 2007
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That 'powder' thing thats apparently used to make someone into a zombie doesn't work. =] History channel says so. But its an interesting idea.



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DemianA
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07:21:42 Dec 07 2007
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In the Voudon Society a person who has committed an offense against the members of the community may be punished by giving them a powder which puts them in a deathlike coma. They are declared "dead", there is no pulse or repirations detected. They are then buried in a casket, and veves (voudon diagrams in corn meal) are placed on the grave. After three days they are disintered and set to work in the fields doing manual labour.
There is a parallel to the Zombie lore, and that is in the late 19th century there were many folkes who were buried alive while they were in a deathlike coma, in many parts of the world. There is recorded evidence of this, as it was nnot that uncommon.
Within the last 50 years there have been developed much more accurate ways to assure that death has indeed occured, like EKGs, EEGs and dopler stethoscopes. But who's to say what goes on in a third world country, with little availability of modern medical diagnostic equipment? However the practice of making Zombies in the modern world is most likely much rarer than 50 years ago. It is not a supernatural being that is a zombie, but a chemically lobotomized one.



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RazaelRiezen
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17:18:22 Dec 07 2007
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Well pending on the sources of your materials.
as stated there are the cultured zombie which are produced through, chemical insertion.

There are also some zombie which are just born to be a zombie. if used just as an example the jet li movie where he is portrayed to be mindless and basically an attack dog.
(with this thought if someone is raised early enough it could be possible through environmental raising to create a zombie)This would mean that you would have to raise it on meats and fleshes, never teach it to talk and probably make sure this person was depth so that it could never truly pick up speech patterns and or words.
I personally would rather not put this to testing because it would be a complete and utter disregard to one's freedom.



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RazaelRiezen
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17:19:56 Dec 07 2007
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oh not to mention one of the greatest zombie films of all time states that it was based on true events

George Romero's Night of the living dead( now whether he put that in there to incite more fear or if it was true only he knows)



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xDeadxRosesx
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19:41:01 Dec 07 2007
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That was a very interesting article...
I've always been fascinated by the idea of the dead walking again. I have researched into history and found a few cases of "zombie like" behavior, such as someone dying, then returning to life. There are some scientific explanations for these occurances, and this was a great example of it: A drug! When some people are high, they really do act like zombies! Imagine that poison - So strong it places someone close to death physically... On top of that, the victim is so enculturated, that the effects of that poison become stronger. It's all in the mind!
Thanks for sharing this!



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Theshining1
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20:25:55 Dec 07 2007
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well i havent seen a real zombie except on tv or i could say i have been one if you concider the street drugs i was on

id be a baskit case and never understand what was happening tell i came down from what i was taking.... thank goodness i quit and not a burnout like some of my friends are..



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Wolfsbohne
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20:41:41 Dec 07 2007
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I don't see why the idea isn't possible - but then most scientists won't try to recreate the situation because it would be unethical. Apparently Davis performed experiments on lab rats to see if the powder worked but failed?

What were the conditions of that experiment? I'd love to read the book and see the actual lab reports, but for now it's just a fun idea to play with.



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Oceanne
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20:53:22 Dec 07 2007
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Better living through chemistry.
There are many things that can produce a catatonic state in someone. ,which could render them easily manipulated and looking pretty much dead.



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DawnofDays
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20:56:07 Dec 07 2007
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science has alot to do with alot of things and zombies are possible.



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Wolfsbohne
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21:11:23 Dec 07 2007
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Oceanne, I'm ashamed to admit I may have taken some of these chemicals at some point.

Maintaining the Zombie in a catatonic state would be exceptionally difficult. Narcisse claims to have been an escaped Zombie, but if he had been repeatedly dosed with the psychedelic powder the chances of him "escaping" with all of his mental faculties is slim to none. Although, the opposing scientists did say that there was mental instability in those who claimed they were Zombies, did they not?



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Oceanne
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21:28:48 Dec 07 2007
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Experimenting where we? LOL
I wouldnt be too ashamed if I were you.

Yes,that is what they say.And in maintaining the zombie state,youy mean keeping him catatonic? or the basic needs met. A good hypnotic could easily enable someone to maintain control over someone,such as Halcion or one of those.

Anyway,maintaining that state isnt all that tough,Just remember,LSD-25 was used by the CIA for brainwashing and all kinds of good stuff because of its long lasting affects. LSD ,as we all know is known for its flashbacks, where the patient again experiences the effects of the drug, even many years later. They even say it is tetragenic,causing affects in future generations,even when taken minute doses.Zombie families?



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Wolfsbohne
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21:36:04 Dec 07 2007
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Having seen the effects of long term psychedelic drugs on friends (at least the ones still alive), I'd have to say that one time, even ten times use for brainwashing is not enough to keep a person under one's "control". If keeping them in a catatonic state is the goal then I would assume that it was regular dosing that keeps the victim as such. Over a long period of time, the damage caused to the brain would be permanent and mental instability would naturally follow.

But if you just want to do the Zombie shuffle, the best drug for that would be Haldol.



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Oceanne
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21:50:50 Dec 07 2007
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Haha yes,Haldol.Thats funny,I had forgotten about that one.The point is,there really are drugs and toxins that could make people appear to be Zombies.Good old fashioned Chemistry.



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bluelightning2
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15:09:20 Dec 09 2007
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i think if a drug was taken to induce a zombie like state, part of the brain might be damage or detroyed to the point where they wouldnt be able to be normal. depinding on what part of the brain is afected deturmince how the victim reacts. higher levels of the brain like memory and reasoning are lost then the instictal/animal part may become dom. wich turns the vitum into the violint type zombie. that is where i thin hollywood got the idea of the flesh eating type.



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DARKGYPSEY28
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15:44:28 Dec 09 2007
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There are spells that can bring back the dead but is something I tend to stay away from . Although I heard in hatti they do this a lot



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FelixFelix
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21:11:55 Dec 10 2007
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In order to put forward an alternative theory...

If there are energy vampires who have developed a need or an addiction to energy of those around them and have a deficiency of it, then perhaps there is an energy zombie.

The zombie is often considered to be the walking dead, whether in the ritual of voodoo and the science of medications that create a deathlike trance or whether in the movies where an infection leads to walking corpses.

I have seen people who show little or know life left. The will to move on and the spark of life has left them. They are every bit alive as they plod through their work, their relationships, and their evening TV time but they couldn't begin to tell you why they live or what they live for. That to me is the definition of a zombie. They're lifeless existence is infectious too. Just being around someone who for all intents is like an automaton has a draining effect where you can still feel yourself slowing down long after you've left the "zombie's" presence.

So perhaps there is a metaphysical zombie. The lifeless, loveless, wandering 'near dead' empty shells of what was once a human being. Going through the motions of their life but never again really there to live it.



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Wolfsbohne
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21:21:28 Dec 10 2007
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Uh,oh Felix - I fear you may have started something.

Your point is excellent, but will people begin to recognize themselves as Zombies and play into that metaphysical theme?



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cryingmoon
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21:25:03 Dec 10 2007
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FelixFelix
good point



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NocYardDog
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13:54:31 Dec 11 2007
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I think zombies were people that before medical confirmed comas or siezures.. most thought they were dead and buried them alive and that when they came out of it they came to escape the confines and were then called zombies .. does that make sense i know i rumble on alot .. ok ill check back soon



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RazaelRiezen
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17:00:48 Dec 11 2007
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The only true issue i see with a person in a coma or some form of unconscious state when you was put into a coffin and buried how would you beable to break free ??

the weight of the dirt on the lid and the fact that even if a small place broke open the dirt would fall in suffocating them



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Angelus
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17:19:31 Dec 11 2007
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years ago.. I watched a documentary, loosely based on what you're talking of.
that powder and THAT film.. it showed some early b/w footage of a 'zombie' amongst the evidence it presented.



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FelixFelix
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20:35:18 Dec 11 2007
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I don't think accidental burial was a huge cause of zombie sightings. It's nearly impossible to dig yourself out of a grave much less inside a coffin. There was a time period though where it was popular to have a bell on a string running into the coffin during an era where such accidents did in fact happen. The idea being that if you woke up buried alive, you could ring the bell with the string.



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BathoryBabe
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21:02:28 Dec 11 2007
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I have seen a few documentaries on zombies and voodoo and according to that it is not a real coming back from the dead zombie. There is a drug that simulates death to a point. Then the mind becomes suggestible. Many people have been reported to have come back from the dead and have been seen as zombies but there is only so much time that they can be a zombie then the drug is not able to be used anymore and the person appears to be normal again.



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VW39
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22:26:09 Dec 11 2007
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Even without the dirt breaking the coffin, a person would sufficate after being burried alive in a few hours, as so little oxygen can exist in such a confined space.



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Dragonrouge
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12:15:21 Dec 12 2007
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Good point Nitemaire, but that depends on what is the moment wich the person starts breething again ;)
Someone burried at the surface could be back on it`s own powers.Try that!LOL
And the zombies could be unbuiried by hungans!



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FelixFelix
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21:00:40 Dec 12 2007
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well that's the principle of the aforementioned accounts in Haiti. Being buried alive but paralyzed and left for dead, as well as the additional effects of halucinagenics would drive a person so crazy as to make them more manageable when the houngan dug them up (then keeping them further under their power with regular dosages of more drugs).



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Daniosislestat
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22:20:09 Dec 12 2007
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when i sit down and think about it, i'm not overly sure on how i feel about zombies, however i do know about a specific case in south east asia, where someone was bitten by a snake, the poison of the snake caused the victim to stop breathing, and other such things, believing he was dead they prepared him for burial, but when he came 'back to life' at the funeral safe to say they were mildly shocked lol they considered him a 'zombie'... odd ay?



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VW39
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04:36:37 Dec 13 2007
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Dragonrough - That person would have to start breathing and dig himself up -if he was burried close to the surface- within minutes of being burried to have any chance of survival.



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sweetblooded
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05:47:04 Dec 13 2007
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I think the idea of zombies may be explained by the fact that most people do not understand comas where a person can lie unmoving and barely breathing for years then awaken for no reason



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VW39
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05:53:08 Dec 13 2007
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But people who are in coma's are also on breathing machines.



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Daniosislestat
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16:47:26 Dec 13 2007
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ah however, it has been known (as i said before) that people have stopped breathing and then apparently 'come back to life' but in saying that there is a whole physiological side to it, but whichever way you look at it, zombies or no zombies, im sure that the accused zombie would be glad to be 'alive' again lol



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FelixFelix
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18:50:59 Dec 13 2007
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What about the whole infection origin that movies seem to apply now to both zombies and vampires. The idea that a disease could cause an almost death or kill the host only to use it's body as a carrier and a means of movement and feeding. At that point, the zombie or vampire isn't so much an undead person anymore but more like a puppet being used by the disease to get from food source to food source.

Is there any medical way at all that this is even conceivable? Could a disease use a body like it's own. Even on the mircroscopic level or perhaps in plant life, are there any parasites that have ever used a host as it's own body after killing the true 'owner' of it? It's a bit like turning a living thing into a vehicle or exoskeleton.



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Daniosislestat
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18:59:17 Dec 13 2007
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well, yes, normal virus' such as the common cold "control" or "inhabit" us to some extent, they hijack our own body cells to make more copies of themselves, but i think the only way that could come about is if said disease/virus was somehow able to get to the brain and manipulate it in such a way that it took over like a symbiote, i do know of a fungus that does this, but only to insects, however that only "controls" them for a short ammount of time

making them climb tree's go under water or hang from somewhere, before bursting out of their body much like something off alien lol

but yea thats my opinion on that one!



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FelixFelix
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19:24:28 Dec 13 2007
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Yes exactly. I think that fungus is called the Cordyceps fungus...driving insects mad before killing them and bursting out their heads. So a mutated form of something like this, could possibly affect the human mind in such a way that the body loses significant motor control or focuses on one thing (like hunger or getting to high ground). Not quite the literal undead zombie but still very similar in scope and infection.



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autumngallows
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19:43:25 Dec 13 2007
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Hmmm...I'll hvae to share this with my boyfriend. He's a real zombie nut.



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LuckDragon
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20:37:01 Dec 13 2007
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thats a good question. i would like to know.



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