The Ultimate Vampire Resource and Directory

In the main religions of the world we hear about the 'power of prayer', and we sometimes might see what we believe to be miracles.
In secular religions, like among Pagans, Wiccans and even witches, we only hear about the power of 'spells' etc.

Am I right in thinking that there is no prayer among the secular faiths as there is no belief in a divine being?
Is the power of a spell more effective than the power of prayer?

Depends which religion you go after. Like catholics pray to saints and angels in order for them to put in a good word for them (it's more complicated than that but that's the bottom line). So if you believe in Angels and that then their abilities should be more powerful than prayers.

However if you pray in the buddhist "way" then you are doing nothing more than focusing on your breath (according the founder, can't remember his name). In this case a spell should prove more effective

So it all depends on what you believe in...

I personally beg to differ, I am wiccan and do believe in the God and the Goddess and still do offer prayers for those whom I care for and protect. Yes, spells and rituals are part of my belief system but so is the divine.

It depends on your beliefs,but to make spells or prayers work you have to work too.

For example you can't pray or make a spell to find a job,if you don't search for a job yourself,it's not that you're going to get an offer from the sky,you have to help yourself too.

In Malta we have a saying:Help yourself so that god helps you,and I think this counts for all the beliefs.

xtremehate, you incorporate two religious beliefs or is the 'divine' that you pray to Mother Earth?

deathnitegrl - i think you're quoting the phrase that "G-d only helps those who help themselves", i tend to agree but surely a spell or some magic can be used equally well 'if you believe' /

no, my friend, to believe in the divine does not mean that one cannot do rituals or spells, but to actually understand that the divine, the Lord and the Lady and both here and should be honored.

But this is my belief and does not mean for one moment that it should be someone else's, I do not believe that someone should be told what to believe. It is always up to the person on what they want to or even not believe in.

Perhaps I missunderstood, what do you mean by secular faiths... Like faiths that do not belong to any church???

Thyme, well yes , but they would argue that differently

my main religon is my own i don't know if there is a god i think its just like the boogyman its there to scare the shit out of u and its not there
but there is something powerful and it should not be ignored some great power u can call it god or whatever u want
praying to me is to help give people faith and hope sometimes it helps sometimes it doesn't

You are bound to step on someones toes when you talk about faith bloodlife.

And as I see it spells and prayers have the same function, it's a ritual to express one's faith what ever it may be.

An example is peter pan, part of his belief that kept him an eternal child was his deep faith that happy thoughts combined with fairy dust could make him fly. It was part spell part prayer.

hi crimsonxxtears, so if you're not sure about prayer, wouldn't a spell be more effective?

No the believers believe that the god/gods/goddess/goddesses help/s everyone even the non-believers,but to make something work it's not necessary Only to pray or do spells but you have to do something to accomplish your wish. This is always referred to wishes,where you can make them happen like the job example,then if there are certain cases where you can't do nothing but pray/do spells or just to hope,then you can't help it.Certain things are meant to happen anyway.

the prayers and the spells share on thing in comon, they both release energy, as in the prayer it is energy formt heir beleif and in spells energy for the one who cast the psells, so basicly without wanting to offend anyone here, it i s a simple opinion, but prayers and spells are at the base the same thing, a release fo energy.

deathnitegrl, i do understand what you say, but normally we only pray or cast a spell as a last resort -- in the norm we dont use conventional prayer as a means to communicate

Yes indeed.

CryingMist, thank you for that, thats the type of comment i'm looking for.

but is it a direct comparison ?

it is simply and observation and a logical conclusion, I mean when there is lots of ppl parying all otgether for one cause or person, then alot of energy is release, when a perosn prays deeply, then again alot fo energy, when a spell is cast with deep profound beleif it release energy, and when several are doing the samespell, then alot of energy, so conclusion it si simply energy release to do what is requested.

I mean basicly a prayer is waht? a reuqest for something to be done? then it requires energy so it release it, the person release it. A spell is the basicly the same.

Yes,cryingmist,that's it.

but are they as effect as each other? I mean dose magic or spells work more effectively?

wouldn't that depend on the person and what they believe in? sorry i shouldn't but in.

Well CryingMist has pretty much said what I was going to say.

Prayers, spells etc, they all work because of a focus of energy. Provided the belief and will is there, the human mind is capable of a lot more than its sometimes given credit for.

so basically a pray dose have the same effect as magic or a spell 'if you believe'!?!?

I believe that the power of either a prayer or a spell has more to do with the person praying or casting the spell. IF they have tremendous faith, there will be tremendous power.

Cryingmist has made a good point.

As to which is more effective ? no idea...I don't practice magic myself.

Thing is in prayer I ask.

From reading other post it would seem that demands are made....perhaps that is the difference.

i think prayer or mediatation can only affect you or the people closest to you in life; i doubt there is a regional or globalized affect to this, we as beings i dont think are powerful enough to give that kind of covering energy.

MalkavianMime

Have you heard of the fire the grid project ?.....basically it calls upon people to send energy/prayer at a certain time so that an effect for good is brought about for the planet.

Perhaps there is a case for strengh in numbers.

nope i havent heard of it, im too scienctific i think to believe in such a thing.

in a way a spell is a prayer.

I think a spell is something you create, prayer is something you ask for so i think a spell is more powerful than prayer is, but that is just my opinion...

isn't a spell something you ask for too

it all depends on the person or the people invovled

I think that is very good topic for conversation. I honestly believe that enough positive energy can effect life and everything living. I believe that prayer is just that. When enough people pray in my opinion what they are doing is focusing energy towards something to an end. For that reason I don't believe it matters what religion or prayer it is because they are all just doing basically the same thing in their own way. I don't know a lot about spells but I think it is just a variation of the same thing. You are focusing your energy to achieve an end result.

I am only speaking for myself here. It seems to me that the power of prayer or the magic of spells lyes in the faith of the beholder. I don't believe that those who do not believe in God would be affected by a spell just because they don't believe in God, they would also have to believe in spells..and not everyone does.

One's faith in something or someone would be what overcomes the other.

Nothing happens without your permission.

CLIX - thats a very good point, so if you dont believe in magic or what a spell can achieve then its fair to say you're pretty safe from witches

For myself yes... it is cut black and white there are no grey areas in my faith.

I woud suppose it would all depend on your own personal beliefs. Religion being one of those beliefs. But in the end my own belief is that whatever you create for yourself will be what you end up with.

To me a prayer and a spell are one in the same really. As some have already said here, both are just ways of focusing energy and intent on a desired goal.

many non-christian faiths have a concept of divine beings, or even one divine being. and they do sometimes pray to that being. of course, there are some who feel it is wrong to ask favours of a divine being, so whilst they might praise that being, they will not pray for something from them.

so if they wont pray for something personal then they use a spell to get the desired goal

I think both prayers and spells are effective. I say use whatever works.

well a spell can be effective its a prayer in many ways
but u use power u have inside urself and around u and it can give the spell stregnth and urself stregnth there is always power in what a person believes in
so a prayer and spell can work its ur choice

Or.. you could end a spell WITH a prayer.. ~So mote it be.. Praises be to the Lord and Lady.. so on and so forth.

The power of a simple overwhelming belief whatever form or culture it comes from, is truly overwhelming.

A very interesting question. I believe that it is all based on ones belief, ones faith in what they are doing. If you believe that the prayer or spell is going to work then it does. There is no scientific way to say for sure however so this may be one of those questions that never seems to be answered.

ok - so you need to believe, i can go with that.

But i hear about the power of prayer and there are even miracles, obviously a result of payer, yet i dont hear about any miracles being attributed to spells

To most wiccans and neopagans I know their spells are really just prayers to their goddesses and gods. So neither one is more powerful. It all depends on the willpower of he person saying the prayer.

Bloodlife I do believe in the power of spells and have used them to good effect. I think most probably do not want to classify a successful spell as a miracle, as that tends to lead others to think of prayer only.

I too believe that a spell is much the same as prayer but in a more ritualized form. It's all about belief, intent and expending energy.

You ask about the strength being increased by more people and I believe this to be true. A spell to me is stronger when the caster is aided by coven members lending their energy and strength to make it more effective. There is also those who request prayer for a sick or needful person of a large group such as a church group, to get the benefit of more energy/messages being sent via prayer. Since both use more people for a common goal seems sensible that it would be more effective.

it really depends on the person and what they believe like i said

In my experience, prayer is a type of spell. Couldn't one even go as far as to say that praying is magic?

I believe, that prayer can be used in any religion to any supreme being and be considered a spell- but thats just my opinion.

I think it really believe that it is what you believe in and have faith in for any of it to work or be considered magic...

Many mention to beleive in , to beleive in the prayer, but you als bleieve in your spell right? so somewhere they are again conected to one another, they both need to be belive in, without beleiving then nether the prayer or the spell wont work, so you need to beleive, then is the bleif actually the source or the trigger of the energy that is release or use ?

That is hard to say...sometimes in prayer I don't necessarily pray a cure. Sometime's I just pray in faith that whatever happens that I be given strength to except his will.... even if the outcome is not something I want....Prayer and Faith are complicated and I'm sure different for each individual...As I expect that spells are. I hope you understand that I don't know enough about spells to say anything about them. That is why I speak of prayer. And again even speaking about prayer is only out of my personal experiences any my personal faith.

it also depends on how may different ways ppl pray but also not many have to go to church to believe in some thing

Ive allways believed in the power of prayer for i have seen it come true many times in my life.For each is own .

most things depend on what you believe in, some do not. It is a wide range that this world and its creations are made from.

i do believe in prayers.

reading down i notice that people are saying 'yes' i do believe in the power of prayer but you dont say that your prayers were answered or indeed if they were 'heard'

my prayers were never answered...but my spells wre and also my reuqest ot the Univers (yes I read the secret) were all granted. And I have ask weird ones, but if you not one what so ever tiny doubt you must be 100% sure you have it already and you will

CryingMist - you say your prayers were never answered........but were your spells??

oh yes they were...even the black spells....really freaky

you sound surprised that 'even' the black ones were answered - why?

I believe in a divine power with absolute certainity..... What is a spell? A casting of a desire... What is a prayer? A casting of a desire.... I feel that both are the same. Do I believe in the power of a prayer/spell? Yes, definitely I feel I am walking proof of that power.

would somebody tell me the biggest open miracle a spell has achieved -- i mean prayer parted the Red Sea and brought manner from heaven, it even could be argued that it brought the dead back to life (Lazareth) -- Outside of reading Tolkien, I've heard nothing as to a major manifestation that has been achieved by spells!!!!!!!!!!!!

a spell is a type of prayer ive had the few protection spells ive done work

nope, in my opion prayer does NOTHING. i am Aiethist, and proud of it. cause i use to belive in god, but, none of my prayers were anserd, pluse, everything in my life goes down hill, so, nope, for me, prayer dont work.

Some of us pagans are from Christian roots. For me, there are some aspect of the Catholic faith that intrigue me still.
I may say that I'm praying for someone, but what I mean now is that I extend positive energy toward them.

Bloodlife-
would you honestly believe it if you were to hear of it?
would anyone with half of their sanity go worldwide with news that their spell worked? and at the same time- how many more would be asking the same question that you are posing right now?

I seem to remember stories of witches using spells to help in the war effort.....but as with prayer tis a very personal thing and hard to prove.

I believe my prayers have been answered, though sometimes not in the way I ever expected lol

I MYSELF HAVE A firm belief in prayer more but i also have used some spells to help me and they also have worked in the same way.

Prayer, I think, and miracles...Prayers get answered and miracles happen because people are focusing so hard on what they want to happen, by force of will and energy they change things.

I have never personally seem a miracle. I have only heard this or that on the power of prayer and have seen many things that could be constued as coincidence that happen to coincide with the prayers.


Exampke would be asking for prayer for a healing from a cold or other sickness. Then you go to the doc and he gives you some meds. you take the meds and get better. Was it the prayer or the meds? My bet is on the meds. This is one of the problems I have in my own faith, never seen a miracle and when I ask about it I get "the children of Israel seen and still strayed"...yeah. If I saw what is described in the bible I would believe and how! Friggin pillar of fire at night and pillar of cloud by day, booming voice coming from the mountain and a burning bush that never gets consummed. All at a time when these things were technologically impossible...yeah.

But today, prayer and spells and belief have been watered down with media.

You want a miracle, get a kid away from the Xbox 360 or PS3...lol.

I guess it depends on how u look at it. I think that spells could be considered prayers. im sure very religious people (maybe christian/catholic) may not think so. but in my opinion, if u believe it and u hope for it. and u pray for it (or as it were, cast a spell for it) i think its all the same idea just different methods of going through it.

I agree with BloodLust, and that ties into my theory. Spells and prayers all cast energy into the main cause, thus causing a change.

i would tend to think they are one in the same all a spell is in true form is a prayer just directed annother way and the request is to somthing else then the christian"god"

To me, a spell and a prayer could be almost identical. The basis of their power lies in the power of your own mind. Whether you believe you're asking a higher being for assistance or just sending out your desire into the universe, it's all your doing. A spell, however, uses materials to focus said energy where with prayer one usually just communicates silently one's desire(s).

Well said Theta- well said :-)

Maximus, when i saw Cecil B. De miles film 'The Ten Commandments' I said and questioned the very same things you just did - open miracles seem to have been a way of life in those days - but still those idiots built a golden calf...ho hum.

Theta , you raise a very interesting point -- it would seem a 2 minuet prayer is as powerful as all the pomp and ceromonies of a ritual spell that takes all day to prepare and all night to execute - and only if you have a good moon.

i think spells and prayers are prettymuch the same thing either way youre asking for something to happen

I can only answer the last part ...
As for a prayer you are hoping for @ asking for something --- where as with a spell you are demanding it @ bringing it about with your own power .... So yes there is a big difference .

to me, the power of prayer is above all else...

hmmm.. check out mysticism :)


( A belief in the existence of realities beyond perceptual or intellectual apprehension that are central to being and directly accessible by subjective experience )

I tend to believe it is all in your belief

I agree that's all in your belief's you have the right to choose who u honor

i dont honestly think it matters if its a prayer or spell , but the belief you have in the healing

i agree with MysticMoon on this. i also believe that it is the persons intuition and beliefs that make the healing process either makes it faster or slower :)

Depends what you beleive in most

it depends on your beleif

thats a good ? but have no answer..

yes and who really knows.

I am wiccan and use prayers to protect the ones I love and care about and for the god and goddess

a lot of prayers are based on demands. ever heard the song "lord wont you buy me a mercedes benz"?

many Pagans have gods, and they do use prayer. they would prefer to use spells because whilst a prayer is asking a god or goddess to do something for you, a spell is doing it for yourself.

it's a bit more complex than that though, because for many spells, you have to draw upon an energy source or power, and sometimes that will come from a god or goddess, so it's a bit like prayer in a sense.

prayer isnt just asking for things though - prayer is about establishing a personal communication with your god / goddess.

many Pagans use rituals for that. amongst shamans, drumming and dancing is a way of communing with a spirit or god, so that is a form of prayer. in the east, meditation is a form of prayer.

karnstein

Interesting you should say that....I tend to think prayer is about asking , sometimes think magic is demanding.

I personally dont pray for Nothing as none of my Prayers have ever been heard or listened to so why Bother i take care of myself or go to Family who i can see face to face and ask them for Help... My House Family is closenit and i can go to them for anythingon here and off the Net

i normally do prayers to both, the God and the Goddess... i think that the prayer is strong... because is the desire of your heart expressed into words and that's what you're offering...

well, true prayer should not be about asking in my opinion - but of course, it usually is. magic is not really demanding something, because that would presume that there is someone to demand it of - whereas magic is actually about making things happen. magic is about trying to control the elements. the principle is "the power to make things happen is there - you just have to tap into it".

i feel that trying to establish communication with a deity with an ulterior motive - i.e. with the hope of getting something in return, is a little presumptive. but that is just a personal point of view, not that of any particular faith or calling.

karnstein

lol.....well, I didn't mean I only ask for myself..........a child asks a loving parent for help and guidence .....that's kind of how I see it.

oh that sort of thing - yeah, that's ideally what its for, but how many people pray "dear god, let me win the lottery" or "dear god help me win this war" and such. but magic is often used that way too. people will use magic to open doors and achieve enlightenment. well, some do. i'd be lying if i said nobody uses it to get back at enemies, or try to make people do as they will. its the same everywhere i guess. the funny thing is, i have met a lot of people who have said the more they learn about magic, the less they feel the need or compulsion to use it.

In my personal opinion, Prayer and Spell go hand in hand. Both of them are a show of faith in something beyond yourself, but driven by yourself.

Essentially, I'm saying when you cast a spell, you are working towards a desired goal through force of will. Prayer differs from that only in the sense that instead of specifically centering YOUR energy on the outcome, you are instead pleaing to a greater power than yourself to manifest the appropriate outcome.

I understand completely that there are more differences, and other ways of describing them... but to me, thats what it boils down to. They are much the same thing: A means to an end.

This thread has been automatically closed for length.