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Stigmata
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MysticMoon
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15:40:26 Oct 06 2007
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Stigmata can exist in two forms, visible and invisible. Invisible wounds are those covered by the forces of God for the inner comfort of the sufferer. Visible wounds appear on the side, palms, feet and head, and often appear and disappear in the space of a few hours. They can appear in one area alone, or all areas at once. Often, intense bleeding accompanies them, and the period before they appear is characterized by depression and weakness. Some stigmatics report feeling whips across their backs.


The wounds can be experienced by both men and women. One of the more famous female stigmatics was St. Catherine of Siena, who experienced invisible wounds on her hands and feet. An interesting fact about stigmata is that it corresponds with the Passion and Death of Christ. Many wounds appear during the Last Supper, and the holy days of Easter. They disappear on Easter itself. Stigmatics reportedly speak to visions of Christ and angels during their trials, and smell strange scents. There are even reported cases of the blood types not matching between stigmata and wounds.

Are they really being punctured by the forces of God? Or are the wounds self-inflicted by those who harbor intense belief?


http://www.homestead.com/wintersteel/Stigmatta.html




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TheHellequin
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15:44:58 Oct 06 2007
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I often wonder if it is a psychosomatic response - intense feelings manifested in these areas. It may be a biological coincidence that they are in the positions of the nails



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Mystic
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15:45:53 Oct 06 2007
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wow this is truly interesting. i believe that in some cases this is real, especially dealing with the religious aspect of it. and the other part i think is fake because there are radicalists and religious faciasts that would do these things to themselves to gain the religion and themselves more publicity. so in my opinion i think it is a half and half thing.



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alixaryon
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15:47:29 Oct 06 2007
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"Are they really being punctured by the forces of God? Or are the wounds self-inflicted by those who harbor intense belief?"


Forces of God might have to do with it, but I see that as less likely(adliest not so often, with so many meaningless individuals, I dont see why should God himself do that.)

Or have all these individuals inflicted those on them selfes? I dont know cuz I am not a psichiatrist.

Yes, they might be inflicting those on themselfes out of their own fanatical beliefs.



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Drakontion
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16:14:32 Oct 06 2007
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My personal opinion is that it is self inflicted, not physically, but due to the person's state of mind. Often these things occur to intensely religious people, the type to go into religious ecstasies, and in these physical conditions strange things can happen to the body by sheer strength of will and belief.



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MysticMoon
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16:16:44 Oct 06 2007
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see i agree with the views here.. yet the church seesm to back a lot of these cases .. if u check the link i posted it reports a case of someone who can close these wounds at will



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STABB666
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16:20:33 Oct 06 2007
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I wonder what happens when devout persons spend all day kneeling and rubbing rosary between their hands?

Other cases have been explained with coincidence, medical and scientific examinations.



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xPsychex
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16:53:47 Oct 06 2007
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I believe that it is a 50/50 kind of thing. While some of these "miracles" might be real, most are probably induced by some sort of religious fervor.



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Carvall
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18:02:20 Oct 06 2007
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The power of the mind is awesome, and I think this is the cause of these manifestations.



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MysticMoon
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19:08:07 Oct 06 2007
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this is a very possible explanation Carvall



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MysticMoon
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19:09:17 Oct 06 2007
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St. Catherine of Siena at first had visible stigmata but through humility she asked that they might be made invisible, and her prayer was heard. This was also the case with St. Catherine de' Ricci, a Florentine Dominican of the sixteenth century, and with several other stigmatics. The sufferings may be considered the essential part of visible stigmata; the substance of this grace consists of pity for Christ, participation in His sufferings, sorrows, and for the same end--the expiation of the sins unceasingly committed in the world. If the sufferings were absent, the wounds would be but an empty symbol, theatrical representation, conducing to pride. If the stigmata really come from God, it would be unworthy of His wisdom to participate in such futility, and to do so by a miracle


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14294b.htm



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MysticMoon
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19:11:51 Oct 06 2007
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Stigmata is spontaneous manifestation of bloody wounds on a person's hands, feet, forehead and back - similar to the wounds of the crucified Jesus. Those who describe stigmata categorize these experiences as divine or mystical. History tells us that many ecstatic bear on hands, feet, side, or brow the marks of the Passion of Christ with corresponding and intense sufferings. These are called visible stigmata. Others only have the sufferings, without any outward marks, and these phenomena are called invisible stigmata.

Healing is usually reported within a few hours after the wounds appear.

Some people who suffer from stigmata report feels of sadness, depression, weakness, their body in physical pain, prior to the bleeding.

The blood will pour forth from openings on the body for an unknown amount of time -then just as suddenly disappear and heal.

The openings can be just in one area of the body - such as the hands or feet - or in several areas of the body at the same time.

The person is almost always in pain and discomfort when this occurs.

Though some people feel stigmata is psychosomatically induced. This is rarely the case.

Stigmata can affect women as well as men.

The blood may be of a different type than the person who is having the experience.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=45898



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catseye
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19:14:17 Oct 06 2007
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padre pio was examined by scientists,some wanting to disprove him and all had to admit that he was the reall thing.



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unseenhellsing
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19:15:25 Oct 06 2007
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Well it is definitly an interesting subject im not really sure what to believe i have seen the movie a few times and that depicts it pretty well . tho i dont really believe in the cathloic Faith so yea ...



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Gaius
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19:24:54 Oct 06 2007
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I believe that if the injuries associated with Stigmata are real they are probably caused by a psychosomatic response. I don’t think science has even begun to scratch the surface of what the mind is capable of. I really do believe in the power of faith. Maybe these injuries are created from the mind of the person suffering from them. I doubt if the injuries are caused by a higher power.

The skeptic in me would also say that I would like to see these things for myself. It’s just hard for me to believe others accounts anymore. Regardless of how well documented they are.



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Kryptick
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19:51:18 Oct 06 2007
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Self-Inflicted.
If their god is as they say he is, why would he inflict those who love him and follow him? Unless he lies in his book and is really a god of deceit.



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Pantervamp
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20:27:41 Oct 06 2007
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I agree with KathryynKrypt in this matter. If there was a god why should he punish they who love him? That would go against gods own words.



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DirtyDevilDeath
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20:32:38 Oct 06 2007
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You know, on this one I'm not sure what to beleive.

I mean.. On one hand it seems totally impossible that a wound of that extremity can come and go so quickly without any true cause.

But on the other there are a lot of strange, and unusal things out there that have no logical explination, yet do occur.

..Again I think this is all on personal belief.



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BLOODLIFE
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21:08:03 Oct 06 2007
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I totally agree with Craig on this one and put in down to 'psychosomatics'. I think we are far more powerful than we know with matters of the mind.



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jigglebewie
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23:04:29 Oct 06 2007
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Hmm maybe Iuno but like someone said what was it, why should God inflict pain of ones that love him.
I'm confuzzled are we talking about Christians and faith or summat else. Cuz if it was the Christain faith and can kinda see why the pain would be inflicted, as Jesus Christ sacrficed himself for others and it's kinda like a sacrifice thing maybe.. Iuno..
But i think it's possible, some might just be made up tho. xx

+Jigz+


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RavenKnight
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00:40:49 Oct 07 2007
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I do not believe in stigmata, i think it is self inflicted wounds, by people who wants to be closer to god but they do not know how to do it...



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MysticMoon
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02:05:40 Oct 07 2007
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Padre Pio and the Stigmata
Padre Pio bore the wounds of Jesus on his hands, feet, and side for 50 years.

Several days before he died in 1968, all evidence of the wounds disappeared.


On October 22, 1918, Padre Pio wrote to his spiritual advisor, Padre Benedetto, describing how he received the stigmata. "On the morning of the 20th of last month, in the choir, after I had celebrated Mass, I yielded to a drowsiness similar to a sweet sleep. All the internal and external senses and even the very faculties of my soul were immersed in indescribable stillness. Absolute silence surrounded and invaded me. I was suddenly filled with great peace and abandonment which effaced everything else and caused a lull in the turmoil. All this happened in a flash.

"While this was taking place, I saw before me a mysterious person similar to the one I had seen on the evening of 5 August. The only difference was that his hands and feet and side were dripping blood. The sight terrified me and what I felt at that moment is indescribable. I thought I should die and really should have died if the Lord had not intervened and strengthened my heart which was about to burst out of my chest.

"The vision disappeared and I became aware that my hands, feet and side were dripping blood. Imagine the agony I experienced and continue to experience almost every day. The heart wound bleeds continually, especially from Thursday evening until Saturday. Dear Father, I am dying of pain because of the wounds and the resulting embarrassment I feel in my soul. I am afraid I shall bleed to death if the Lord does not hear my heartfelt supplication to relieve me of this condition. Will Jesus, who is so good, grant me this grace? Will he at least free me from the embarrassment caused by these outward signs? I will raise my voice and will not stop imploring him until in his mercy he takes away, not the wound or the pain, which is impossible since I wish to be inebriated with pain, but these outward signs which cause me such embarrassment and unbearable humiliation




http://www.padrepio.com/app2.html



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GrandMasterC187
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02:09:18 Oct 07 2007
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Wow that's strange but fascinating at the same time.



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MysticMoon
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02:10:45 Oct 07 2007
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ive seen the movie stigmata and thats what got me interseted in this subject.. Im sure the so called true stigmata wernt so dramatic



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Scatterspell
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03:12:19 Oct 07 2007
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Totally and abjectly false.

Never has there been a recording of this actually happening.



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dakoda09
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07:22:33 Oct 07 2007
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i dont know that would be pretty tough to do your self if it would happen



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Jessika
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07:55:38 Oct 07 2007
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The wounds, in my opinion, could not have happened in the hands. It would have had to have been the wrists because the hands are not stong enough to hold the weight. I think this can happen when a person beleives enough in their farth in god. The mind is after all a very powerfull thing.



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CryingMist
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08:02:46 Oct 07 2007
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they can be and will mostly be psychosomatic, some will also only react or apear when the mind makes them, as it is very powerfull and known to allow us to create them, many itmes it happens, ppl with disorder not medical but psychosomatic ended up doing themselves stigma



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CLIX
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09:46:32 Oct 07 2007
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This is a very interesting topic by the way. I don't know a thing about it except like most from the movie and a few things I have heard from other's. I try to give most things the benefit of the doubt. I am not sure on this one at all. But it is something I would actually like to research some more either way or whatever I find out it's still interesting.



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LucianRa
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10:41:26 Oct 07 2007
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I am very skeptical of stigmata. I tend to agree with those who believe any wounds to be self inflicted and as further evidence against it, the wounds are almost always in the palms rather than the wrist. As others have pointed out, if this were a true manifestation of the wounds of Christ, the palms would make no sense whatsoever.



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RedFlavour
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12:02:20 Oct 07 2007
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well..okay..but does people that doesnt believe in God get those too?
cause that would be interesting...they wouldnt get those wouldns for such deep belief.



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RedFlavour
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12:04:46 Oct 07 2007
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wounds*
(upsy)



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cherryblossom
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01:30:47 Oct 10 2007
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I think it's a bit of both....some wanting to be like him...so actually getting hurt for it....



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MOONLITDREAM
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01:53:57 Oct 10 2007
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i agree with cherryblossom and ravenknight



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BillytheJust
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02:00:32 Oct 10 2007
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I had very similar "wounds" about four years ago. I was staying over at HI doing a meditation for world peace thingy during the New Years weekend. I'm never a party person and the Holiday has always meant little to me. The weekend courses and meals were free and needed to pay for the room only. The fire would be set and burning for 24 hours. Always being attended to. I sat for three hours between 12:00 - 3:00am. Chatted in the upper room until closing ritual at 5:00am.

It was about 4:00am that I noticed my "marks." Two at the wrists (one quarter size centered in each writs), and one at my ankle, the same size. Round, dark red bruise color marks. When I noticed them I did indeed say "Shit" out loud. And lol, yes, I did check my right ribs for any marks. There was none. I checked my other ankle and found only small marks appearing. But no "bleeding" in any of them.

Strange shit happens to me so ... I wasn't too surprise. and it would have been a great trip but ... I actually did know what was happening a few moments later. After the initial shock I remembered that it was most likely an allergic reaction to the antibiotics that I was on for a future tooth extraction planned for later that week.

Rashes do indeed show up on the body. everyone knows that. But only round circles and only at the wrists and ankles? Hell no - too weird. But yes - they do, and did. That's all they were - rashes. went off the pills and the marks went away. Doc said they were hives. Looked more like Stigmata to me. Goes to show. If this happened back then, or to someone that was a true believer and only saw what they wanted ...well, you get the picture.



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BillytheJust
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02:02:15 Oct 10 2007
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And as for wanting to be like "him," hell yeah. One of the greatest role-models a person could hope to have.



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PandorasBx
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02:09:04 Oct 10 2007
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I feel that it is psychosomatic. Our minds are full of untapped resources. The power of the mind is extraordinary.



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Kaylathegypsy
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03:29:11 Oct 10 2007
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Personally I believe that these are the only unexplainable miracles that may possibly seen as such by societies scepticism. The unfortunate thing for believers is that the unexplainable part plays into the sceptic scheme.



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Meska
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05:52:34 Oct 10 2007
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isnt that like a catholic thing



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ceridwenlynn
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06:51:22 Oct 10 2007
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I think that some cases are real and some are self inflicted by the more radical religious people. Like most other things, I think only some of it is real, and the rest is fake. I do believe that this has actually happened to some people. I don't see why it couldn't. There are toher miracles that happen, why not this?



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RazaelRiezen
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07:26:49 Oct 10 2007
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this is one of those toughys some have been proven to use blood packets hidden with make up to try and portray true stigmata

however unless I was to see it with in my own eyes examining the person first, locking them up knowing what all they had on their persons.
along with isolated visitation, then and only then If I witnessed it would I possibly believe in stigmata
Im very open minded to alot of things however this one has been one of those which is hard to believe and or prove or disprove.



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darkkaos
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08:12:43 Oct 10 2007
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I believe it all comes from within. I don't believe they are acts of god



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Daermon
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09:09:16 Oct 10 2007
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"Posted by Scatterspell:
Totally and abjectly false.
Never has there been a recording of this actually happening."
now this is an example of someone not quite smart enough to actually do a little reasearch into a topic,before spouting uninformed bullshit off, as I just did a google search and came up with dozens of documented cases....
in seconds....
http://www.unexplainable.net/artman/publish/article_2951.shtml
http://www.greatdreams.com/stigmata.htm
http://www.duntemann.com/bleeding.htm
just a bare beginning...
try doing at least a few seconds of research before typing bullshit at us thanks


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RazaelRiezen
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09:12:04 Oct 10 2007
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hmm not that he needs this however I believe scatter was referring to stating there has never been any true documented events that could hold up to the public.

Nor would any thread of stigmata ever be allowed to pass judgment because with that it would dictate way too much.



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Daermon
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09:26:19 Oct 10 2007
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ok what part of DOCUMENTED are we missing here in the links I provided

"The Church for some time viewed Padre Pio with suspicion, for many alleged stigmatists have been found, upon inspection, to be merely attention-seekers with penchants for pain. Not so Padre Pio: against his will, many doctors and scientists came to examine and photograph the wounds (one such photo is above), but they could offer no natural explanation for the Stigmata."
quoted from this site
http://undegaussable.blogspot.com/2007/05/padre-pio-stigmatist.html
dammit would you people learn to read before talking....and people wonder why I rarely grace the forums anymore



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RagingDarkness
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14:23:35 Oct 10 2007
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I believe stigmata exists, however I feel that its brought on more by religious hysteria. Although arguements can be shown that people with no religious standings have recieved stigmatas as well.

So its a mystery to me, a fascinating one at least.



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DevilsConcubine
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16:36:36 Oct 10 2007
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In a religious context, stigmata are the wounds of Christ's hands, feet, forehead, and side that mysteriously appear on someone else. In some instances only the marks appear, but in the vast majority of cases the appearance of stigmata is accompanied with pain and blood loss (up to 1½ pints per day). Historically, there are well over 300 reported stigmatics, some of whom are living today. Many, many of these cases are well documented by the religious world and the scientific world as well.

One of the best documented modern stigmatics is Jane Hunt in England. On July 25th, 1985 she was "blessed" with the visitation of stigmata. She, like many of her fellow stigmatics before her, experienced a weekly cycle of the sign. On Friday of each week she would manifest deep bleeding wounds in her hands and feet, but by the next Monday or Tuesday no scars nor marks were apparent. This phenomenon was studied carefully by doctors and scientists alike. Indeed, a video documentary was produced that recorded the weekly event and it aired publically in the United Kingdom in 1986.


http://www.hcna.us/columns/stigmata.html



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mike1065
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17:48:36 Oct 10 2007
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self harming delusions



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BloodLust1724
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17:59:12 Oct 10 2007
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this is really a great question as i often wondered about this phenomena. Im not sure what i believe. being raised catholic i know a lot about it. Im the type of person that just believes in things only because i have no proof to either prove or disprove so i cant say it isnt true or it is.

What i think, it could be psychosomatic as stated above

but im not closed minded enough to say it couldnt be from God or some other supernatural being. What i think we need to do is figure out who has reported these markings and what their background is.

are most of the ppl religous fanatics... cause then that just discredits it all for me...

or are some of them non believers who woke up one morning bloody with different dna. cause then id be like we need to figure this out!!!



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LadyNarvinye
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18:55:02 Oct 10 2007
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The mind has great power...I believe that anything is possible. It's a possibility that because these people are in such a state of depression, it manifests itself in this way. If it is true that most of those who suffer from stigmata are very religious, that might explain why the wounds resemble those of Christ.



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MOONLITDREAM
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20:14:30 Oct 10 2007
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great links this i didnt know much on
the links above are great



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crmsncreature
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20:15:27 Oct 10 2007
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Again, I believe it's a mind over matter thing.



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Theshining1
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the marks of jesus yes the catholic believe they are a gift and a curse



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hurtsoulless
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20:25:03 Oct 10 2007
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I have always believed that stigmata always happened to those who were not of the Catholic faith. That being said, does any one else believe that stigmata by definition is counterproductive. Seeing as how it would generate some proof of divine existence?


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ryet666
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20:28:19 Oct 10 2007
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By one's belief as to whether or not they are factually the hand of God, but the church does seem to expend alot to dispell them...



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hurtsoulless
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For one to choose to accept that the religion is based upon a foundation of faith. Would, to get the attention of non-followers, it not seem odd to manifest in the form of a non believer?


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amberwine143
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21:03:15 Oct 10 2007
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I don't think thier caused by God but I also don't believe they are meant to decieve...I think the person really thinks they have been chosen.



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RazaelRiezen
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21:04:11 Oct 10 2007
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as Ive stated i am openminded about a lot however im also influenced by the scientific side of life so it kinda hits each other.

stigmata is one of those I would have to witness for myself to actually believe



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VISilentVIDesecrationVI
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21:55:37 Oct 10 2007
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I doubt that they are caused by "God." Possibly because I don't believe in "God."



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hurtsoulless
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21:59:08 Oct 10 2007
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VISilentVIDesecrationVI

Tell me, do you think you would change your mind if it happened to you. Why or why not?


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sportsfan
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to me they wounds are either ones you get in real life that events are going on around you at the time or there is something going on inside your head that is causing wounds like that to be appairing from the middle of no where.



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Pantervamp
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22:04:04 Oct 10 2007
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i have to comit this subject kinda scare me



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RaineVampire
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01:33:44 Oct 11 2007
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i´ve read that some stigmatas have been priests of undoubted faith, some of them have received up to three of the marks... but i´ve also heard that it can happens to everyone. Not necessarily is a matter of faith...



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Emeleth
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01:35:39 Oct 11 2007
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So when was the last time that there was a documentable case of stigmata? Cause that really seems creepy to me...And I think vampires are cool. *shiver*



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oxidisingangel
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I heard that the first stigmatic is thought to have been St. Francis of Assisi, in 1224. It was a response to a prayer he had. He wanted to feel the suffering that Jesus felt. Jesus was supposed to have appeared to him during the night in ablaze of dazzling stars and pierced his hands, feet, and chest with streams of blood and fire. But It's hard for me to believe all this about stigmata.



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Gothlibra25
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02:27:22 Oct 11 2007
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Yes it is.
the marks of jesus yes the
catholic believed the stigmata touch by Christ,
a curse or a gift



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MysticMoon
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03:48:46 Oct 11 2007
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i have to agree with Amber wine of this one.. its kind of hard to swallow that someone could use psychosomatic response to achieve this



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DruidnessSteph
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04:37:02 Oct 11 2007
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I believe that in most cases it is real. Their are people who truly devote themselves to follow in Christ shoes and then suffer the stigmata. I also believe that their are people out there who do things for attention. Those with stigmata usually don't broadcast it. Just their preist or parish are informed to pray for the suffering to be little.



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RazaelRiezen
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04:52:41 Oct 11 2007
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unfortunately there are hundreds maybe thousands who try and claim stigmata

mainly for the reputation from the church. since to have stigmata is a sign of being a saint



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MidnightRayn
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05:21:08 Oct 11 2007
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Everyone has theiir own ideas about the stigmata phenominon the even made a movie out of it. Most stigmatas occurs when a person is really devout in the christian religion, Yet we do have radicalists causing the event however there are some that the church can not explain, and some are disproved. My personal opinion that if ones energy is strong enough then they and metally will it on themselves beliving they are being blessed by christ himself



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RazaelRiezen
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05:28:36 Oct 11 2007
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so true.

My personal belief is that doctors and or others who look to see honesty on someones stigmata would never let it out as being real it would just cause too much of an uproar



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DaQueenOfNight
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09:39:28 Oct 12 2007
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It could be a act of God to tell us that he does exsist. It could also be something that only happens to devout Catholics.
We can make ourselves sick from worryin about something, why could we inflict the wounds that he suffered?
Either way I think that if in the event that it did occur he/she would most deffintly have to gain more proof than just a movie.



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Deola
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09:52:53 Oct 12 2007
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i dont believe in god..
but i think theyd have to be studied as a case by case basis..

anything is possible



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Livingdeadguy
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13:03:01 Oct 12 2007
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I seen the movie.



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ToxicKitten
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13:42:11 Oct 12 2007
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it's an iffy 50/50 thing.



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DeMorte
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16:31:53 Oct 12 2007
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well I feel that most of it is self inflicked



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bloodymiss
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17:28:57 Oct 12 2007
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well some might really happen but most are just fo attention



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Meska
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18:44:58 Oct 12 2007
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it is supposed to be the ultimate religoius(SP) experience



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Frucissiere
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22:34:58 Oct 12 2007
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first i would like to hit on the idea that someone mentuioned earlier of 'why would god punish people who love him'

the idea of stigmata for those ultimate believers is not a punishment in their eyes, they see it as a way to be closer to the lord and become part of him through his suffering that man forced on him. for those of... not huge amount of faith and mass 'sinners' its a shot... to the right side to kinda wake em up to the truth

now my idea on what it is... if anyone here has read the forum on 'Gods" you'll know my belief structure, in that people become 'gods' in the next life to rule over the next world, so in that degree people are already in part...'godlike' and have ultimate power we choose not to use, our minds, however when focused in on one thing long enough the mind is able to create what we want... ie for these people who fully believe stigmata, its the same power that gives true magik users their ability.
For those who don't believe and 'unwantingly' take part in a religious experience is because they do not have a belief structure or they don't fully believe it and they 'want' that something so the mind creates a way for them to 'totally' believe in a faith.



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Kryptick
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23:42:19 Oct 12 2007
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This is my biological brother's opinion, he's a Christian.

He believes that you can summon demons by focusing too much on thoughts, therefore giving them permission to do things to you. [What I call negative energy, he calls demons]
Just as hypochondriacs believe that something is physically wrong with them when there's not, giving all that thought and energy makes a manifestation of the demonic of sorts, which inflicts pain upon that person.

Thanks, you just fueled a debate which lasted for over an hour. Seriously, I just learned a lot about Christianity that I didn't know.



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lonewolfofdarkness
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00:25:32 Oct 13 2007
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It may in fact be wrought on by god himself so that those who believed that they were pure, knew they weent afterwards



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Daermon
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11:54:04 Oct 14 2007
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RazaelRiezen wrote:
"as Ive stated i am openminded about a lot however im also influenced by the scientific side of life so it kinda hits each other.

stigmata is one of those I would have to witness for myself to actually believe"

well in that case since numerous links have been presented to DOCUMENTED cases, including a video documentation, and there are HUNDREDS of other well documented cases, then you must also disbelieve that nuclear physics works, unless you happen to be a nuclear physicist, or unless you are a geologist maybe you believe the earth must be hollow, since you don't know from first hand experience that there is a lava flow core, you haven't actually seen it after all....
but i'm being a dick again...so i'll shut up now


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karnstein
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12:33:22 Oct 14 2007
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i believe that the mind can be so convinced of something that it influences the body to conform. the world is stranger than we think.



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karnstein
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16:05:59 Oct 14 2007
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is there anything like stigmata occurring in faiths other than catholicism?



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DevilsConcubine
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16:24:47 Oct 14 2007
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The Buffalo News, June 15, 2003
http://www.buffalonews.com/
By JAY TOKASZ, News Staff Reporter

Lilian Bernas stood beneath an icon of the crucified Jesus, gripping the lectern, speaking smoothly and matter-of-factly about what happened to her on Good Friday.

Her hands and feet were blistered when she awoke the morning of April 18, Bernas explained, and by 11:30 a.m., they began spontaneously to bleed.

By the afternoon, her forehead started bleeding, too, as did a wound in her side and on her shoulder.

Then a series of intensely bright white lights appeared, out of which emerged four saints, she said. One of the saints recited the Lord’s Prayer in Latin and delivered the Eucharist to her.

By 5 p.m., the wounds disappeared, and Bernas visited her church in Niagara-on-the-Lake for the Stations of the Cross.

“That was my Good Friday. Marvelous. Beautiful,” Bernas said to the captivated audience inside St. John the Baptist Church in the Town of Tonawanda in early May.

If Bernas has stigmata - the five wounds of the crucified Jesus - they were not apparent during this speaking engagement a few weeks ago.

Her hands showed no blood when she raised and lowered her glasses to her face. Her temples didn’t bleed.

Small marks of healed skin were visible on her hands, but the only other evidence of her Good Friday experience were the photographs on a small table in the front of the church - snapshots of her bloody palms and feet and of blood oozing down her forehead.

A group of parishioners invited her to speak at St. John the Baptist on “Peace in a Broken World.” Bernas, since her first stigmata claims in 1992, has typically drawn a crowd to the churches she has visited, despite little publicity. The May 13 visit was no exception.

About 250 men, women and children came for a glimpse and an opportunity to embrace her after the 90-minute talk. It was a small group for Bernas, who is quietly gaining a following in Western New York and beyond.

Growing crowd of believers

On April 27, the Sunday following Easter, an estimated 800 people filled the Greek Orthodox Church of the Holy Spirit, in the Rochester suburb of Webster, to see her. In November 2001, she drew 1,000 people to St. Michael Parish in Buffalo, and she has attracted hundreds at churches in Florida.

Many of them walk away hailing Bernas as a humble prophet, with little doubt that the wounds are authentic.

“It has to be real, in my way of thinking, because nobody wants to suffer in this way just for the glory of people,” said Lise Farnand of Webster, who has seen the open wounds. “Lilian wouldn’t be suffering this much to have people around her. It’s not worth it.”

Farnand believes God “is sending us consolation” through people like Bernas.

It’s unclear exactly how many people have actually seen the bleeding wounds, but for some, simply hearing Bernas speak has been a moving experience.

“I’ve never witnessed this whole thing actually happen, but I guess I don’t need to,” said Marleah Close, a parishioner of Blessed Sacrament Church in Buffalo who has met Bernas several times. “What she has to say just reaffirms everything I’ve been taught and have known. The fact that this is happening to her gives you a feeling that she’s some kind of messenger. It’s kind of an awesome thing what is happening to her.”

The Rev. John G. Sturm, a Jesuit priest who serves as parochial vicar of St. Michael Parish, admits he was skeptical about claims of stigmata and visions of Jesus.

“You say, “Oh, sure.’ You’re really like (doubting) Thomas in a way,” he said.

Sturm met Bernas about four years ago in Naples, Fla. He recalled “her extreme humility” and the simple way she answered questions.

“It was a very casual meeting. It wasn’t like meeting an ordinary person, in a way. Her manner was just different. It just amazed me,” he said.

The two became friends. Sturm said he has witnessed Bernas’ bleeding wounds four or five times.

“For a while, she had it every first Friday,” said Sturm. “It’s very, very strange. The blood . . . sometimes it spurts out, and sometimes it drips.”

Even a photojournalist, taking pictures for the Ottawa Citizen, was amazed by what he saw during two visits with Bernas in 2001: deep wounds in her hands and feet, teardrops of blood from her forehead, and the sweet smell of roses emanating suddenly from her.

“It was pretty remarkable,” said the photographer, Simon Wilson.

A history of the blood

Bernas first began to experience her wounds during Easter in 1992. She also claims to have had visions of Jesus, who addresses her as “my sweet petal” or “my suffering soul.” She has written about these experiences in two self-published books.

The Archdiocese of Ottawa, where Bernas lived prior to Niagara-on-the-Lake, set up a special commission to investigate her claims, but diocesan officials are reluctant to talk about it.

“It doesn’t really concern the general public. It just creates propaganda,” said Gabrielle Tasse, spokeswoman for the Ottawa Archdiocese.

In the foreword to her books, Bernas maintains that the commission concluded she was neither lying nor crazy.

The Ottawa Archdiocese will say only that it recommended Bernas be “well-guided spiritually.”

“The inquiry did not make a judgment on the authenticity,” said Tasse.

Since the inquiry, Bernas, a convert to Catholicism who once worked in a nursing home in the Ottawa area, has spoken at several local churches.

At St. John the Baptist, she dressed simply in an olive green sweater and checkered pants, with a chain and pendant hanging from her neck.

Her brown hair was cut short, and she appeared to be in her early 40s. She spoke clearly and lyrically, like a polished preacher, her words flowing seamlessly and never stumbling into each other.

Bernas’ talks have been advertised in church bulletins, and she was profiled in Western New York Catholic, the region’s Catholic newspaper.

Church is wary

But officials at the Diocese of Buffalo said she is not supposed to be discussing the stigmata and visions in churches.

“We are following the policy of her home archdiocese (Ottawa) that she is not to speak publicly because her faith journey is private,” said diocesan spokesman Kevin Keenan.

Keenan said it was possible that Western New York parishes were not aware of the Ottawa Archdiocese’s policy.

“This is the first time this has come up, so we’re responding to that,” he said.

Officials in the Diocese of St. Catharine’s, where Bernas now lives, have not returned phone calls seeking comment.

It’s not unusual for the Catholic Church hierarchy to resist publicity regarding claims of the supernatural, said the Rev. Thomas Reese, a Jesuit priest and editor of America, a weekly Catholic magazine.

“The church rarely comes down and says, “Yeah, it’s legitimate,’ ” Reese said. “The church is very skeptical of these things.”

Many bishops struggle with how to approach phenomena such as stigmata and apparitions - which stir intense interest among many devout Catholics, but are difficult to verify and aren’t integral to the practice of the faith.

The Vatican reportedly is working on new guidelines for bishops.

In January, the Holy See’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith acknowledged a steady increase in claims of visions of Mary, messages, stigmata and other miracles, according to a report by the Catholic News Service, the media arm of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith plans to update its 25-year-old guidelines regarding the authenticity of such occurrences, which sometimes have pitted reluctant bishops against insistent believers.

“People are always looking for extraordinary things. They find their faith strengthened by such manifestations,” said Lawrence Cunningham, professor of theology at the University of Notre Dame. “People are after intense religious experiences,” said Cunningham, author of several books on spirituality.

Joe Nickell saw the bleeding Bernas, too, and isn’t convinced.

Nickell, a former detective and magician, investigates claims of the supernatural and paranormal for Skeptical Inquirer magazine, based in Amherst. In 1993, he wrote a book on the topic, called “Jesus most likely was nailed to the cross through his wrists.

Once the notion that Jesus was nailed through the wrists became accepted, some stigmatics began to display wrist wounds.

“Here’s my logic: Stigmata are supposed to be a reflection of the wounds of Christ, whatever those were like. If these were true manifestations, they ought to tell us where the wounds were,” Nickell said.

Instead, stigmata appear “all over the place. There’s every kind of variant, and they keep changing.”

A matter of personal belief

Sturm, the Jesuit priest, isn’t concerned by skeptics or the lack of interest church leaders have in Bernas.

“It’s up to each person to believe it or not,” he said. “The church won’t move unless many, many, many people are touched by her. She’s really not that widely known. The church won’t act until loads of people are asking, “Is it true or not true?’ “

Church leaders haven’t found any fault with Bernas’ theology or her sincerity, he added.

“If she’s for real, it will last. If not, it will die out quickly,” said Sturm.

Supernatural or not, Bernas’ stigmata could benefit the faithful if she uses it “to lead people to Jesus Christ and to the sacraments, to the church and to works of charity,” said Reese.

“But,” he added, “to the extent it becomes a magic show or a cult of personality, it’s a distraction from the central message of the gospel, which is that Jesus is our savior and has mercy on



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DevilsConcubine
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16:25:17 Oct 14 2007
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oops forgot the link

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/3472/in-apparent-stigmata-a-question-of-belief




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karnstein
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17:36:16 Oct 14 2007
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it is interesting that in many cases of stigmata, the victim bleeds from the palms. catholic icons generally show christ being crucified this way, however that's not how crucification was done. we now know that they crucified people by putting the nails through the wrist. crucification through the palm would not have worked.



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Daermon
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18:41:36 Oct 14 2007
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I have read OF cases where the recipient was NOT a catholic, or even apparently christian, but could not find backing documentation



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RavenKnight
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18:45:35 Oct 14 2007
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Every time i have seen pictures of people who had real stigmata the wounds were always in the hands but i do not see it possible for a body to be held up by the palm and a lot of other people do not think that is possible either, so a lot of the stigmatas i think are faked to get more worshipers or to get attention...



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karnstein
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21:57:08 Oct 15 2007
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that is true, the romans always crucified by putting nails thru the wrist - and used ropes to support the wrist too. how come the stigmatics never get rope burn?



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MidnightRayn
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03:47:18 Oct 16 2007
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I agree with changeling, the true stigmatas should occur through the wrists



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Novus
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04:35:19 Oct 16 2007
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An interesting topic. I always thought that the stigmata was a physical manifestation of the mind.



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RavenKnight
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05:13:35 Oct 16 2007
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karnstein~
That is true i have never seen any pictures of the people who have stigmata with rope burnes, it is either in their palms, in their sides, or around their head, but would they not also have all kinds of lash marks and bruises on their bodies...



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demonsVSvampires
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05:56:09 Oct 16 2007
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this is truly interesting. i believe that in some cases this is real, especially dealing with the religious aspect of it



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MOONLITDREAM
MOONLITDREAM
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07:02:21 Oct 16 2007
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i personally do not know if i believe in stigmata's or not some of them seem real and then their are some that look fake.



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Daermon
Daermon
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08:22:39 Oct 16 2007
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well considering that most consider it to be a psychosomatic response, then it would be through the hands, as that is what was commonly attributed by over a thousand years of artists, so thats all most people would know, the facts concerning crucifixion are actually only fairly recently tested, so the known imagery would dominate the occurance over the realities



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Glenn
Glenn
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Chateau Orleans (Coven) is a member of an Alliance

Member of Chateau Orleans (Coven)
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17:21:40 Oct 16 2007
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Catholicism is filled with many examples witnessed by thousands of stigmata.



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12:29:29 Oct 18 2007
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I believe stigmata can happen when you're dreaming as the result of another spirit taking control of your body when you're voulnerable



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LadyDiamond
LadyDiamond
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12:38:46 Oct 18 2007
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I think in some cases it may be real. None as of yet.



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SatanasLuciferi
SatanasLuciferi

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14:04:24 Oct 18 2007
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I do not believe in stigmata. Stigmata have too many flaws for me to believe in.



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VR System
VR System

No Longer Registered
14:04:24 Oct 18 2007
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This thread has been automatically closed for length.



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• • • • THIS THREAD IS CLOSED • • • •
•  Closed by VR System on Oct 18 2007  •

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