Most of us beleive and have been told for years that black hole only go one way and its by absorbing every energy around.
Recent researches I came across an article
http://www.matrixmasters.com/blog/2004_07_01_archivescience.html
Who mention some research and info on the possibility that "But this conflicts with the laws of quantum physics, which say that such information can never be completely wiped out" so meaning the information absorbed by it could be retreived.
What are your views on it? Could such energy really be benefic and allow us to one day retreave what it had taken from us?
I consider that it is a possibility but yet needed to be proven, still since 2004 many researches are progressing.
I think Black Holes are the power of the universe and literally propel the energy that moves our planets, suns, etc. through space/time.
I will watch the video and get back to this in a bit for a more comprehensive answer on the actual topic.
BTW - what do you think about the idea that we will align with the center of our galaxy in 2012 and that it could cause major polar shift?
JMC
Black holes are a mystery and everything goes into a black abass to be never seen again. where we do not know some say they are pulvorized yet it seems to gain enrgy and force on the things that seem to go into, fact given more enrgy to the black hole
I donot think we could ever possible retrieve or benifit from the energy within it, how could we possible ever try to harness the energy for everything we put into it will be destroyed. some scientist have been rumored to say that these holes may infact lead to other parellel worlds or universes.
thats true the idea of send a probe in could help but it would be distroy probably before we got any information back the radio signals probably would get sucked in with it.
A balck hole will never truely understood. Way to much energy & info for our little brains to answer. Maybe in the next relm we will find the answer.
I have read about the alignement that some predict for 2012 but personnaly I do not think it would have any permenent effect, could cause more harvoch and stress, panic being within the human heart, still I am sure that there will be something that will prevent total inhalation of life.
As I am sure the blakc holes will at one point reveal their secrets, who know they might release suddenly all that they have absorb.
There is a massive black hole in the centre of our galaxy. Stephen Hawking did research on this and it was called Hawking radiation, because a black hole can release all of its energy and this causes the black hole to evaparate. Take a look at Hawking radiation.
Magic25UK beat me to it. As a side note, it's believed that the smaller the black hole the faster the evaporation of its mass would be.
Yea, and I was watching possibly ways our Earth could go, and that was one of them, the black hole. It said we would be stretched more and more, fit into the tiny space of nothingness. Egads.
OK here is my 2 cents. and posting this after i have read your link hun.
ok you got my mind to going now lolol
love science in all its forms lol
the black hole paradox that is menched is a very good possibleity.
that no matter what we used to think that once a object was in the black hole its gone forever.
energy, or matter. are made in one form or another.
weather we call it string threoy. or atoms. both ideas are along the same idea ...to a point.
both do one thing. it just changes to meet the out line of all what we call the universe. just in a different shape.
if enrgy goes into a black hole. it does come out as a different kind of energy. that has been proven just a few years ago.
(there was a discovery show about it, very intresting mind ya lol)
sting threay is a threaoy based on what they think of what all of the universe is made of. and its like a pc in a way to explain what sting threaoy is.
every 1 and 0 of a pc on dos code to make one simple
word work like the word run.
it takes many 1 and 0's to make that word.
now think of stings as 1's and 0's of space.
but in stead.....all is virbateing.
sweeet stuff lol
but this threaoy does have its flaws. its not proven for one thing. and no idea how to test this threaoy as far as i have heard of.
The great Hawking himself *coughs* recently has retracted his original theories and indeed shown that the information, over time, will all be released.
Black holes do more than just suck up energy and matter they give off huge streams of radiation and a supermassive black hole will evaporate itself entirely within about a gogol years (1+100 zeros).
"Quantum black holes" or Micro BH can poof themselves out in a fraction of a second.
People tend to think of black holes as these all powerful destructive forces but thats pretty far from the truth.
Most black holes don't eat up millions of stars and swallow galaxies, in fact thats all but impossible for the next few hundred billion years.
Many black holes are not bound to a system and "wander" freely throughout the universe having nothing to "eat" but dust and particles.
i meant to add to mine post. lol is that i think black holes don't just eat and what they eat just then disaprears....forever. it is impossible for anything to do that. i think. like when we eat, a paer, it don't come out of us looking like a pear lol the energy of what made the pear look like a pear gets transformed (medaphorically specking here lol)
energy that a blach hole eats, does get sent back out.
its not lost, just changed.
all we have are the science fiction theories.....
Yes.... there is fact about Black Holes having severe gravitational attraction.... and how anything around a Black Hole will be pulled towrds the source the it's gravity.....
and we've all heard the theories of, on the other side of the Black Hole is an Alternate universe..... or an alternate Dimension.....
but there is not enough "real" information on Black Holes to make assumptions about a Black Holes function....
perhaps one day... we will learn more.
it is true. they are just threorys. and in years to come... more threorys will of course come and some will go.
but can not wait to see the proof when they get it. :)
There was a physicist called Schwarzshild. He said that a black hole is so dense, that would create a large gravitional field around its centre, and it was called the Schwarzshild radius. The black hole would have a strong gravitional field that it would warp and distort the fabric of space and time, so much. This makes it impossible for the velocity of light to escape the black hole's gravity, because the speed of light is equal to the escape velocity of the black hole.
Okay, before I say what I have to say on the matter, let me first mention that this topic (ie space, the universe, etc) really makes me feel quite ill when I think about it.
Okay, now that's out of the way :)
I take it people will have heard of the "big bang" theory, yes?
Well, based on the same principle, there is also a "big crunch" theory - this theory describes one of three possible outcomes for the end of this universe.
The second possibility is that the matter of the universe just keeps expanding and expanding, for the rest of eternity. To be quite honest, unfortunately I find this option rather impossible.
The last is the eventual slowdown of the universe, in which everything is eventually turned into dark matter and sucked into various black holes...
¬¬
Don't you just hate physics.
This research that you speak of may be the key to finding out which one of these options is true.
It may be none of them...
I love this thread! So, as for the original question about whether or not one day we will be able to retrieve all that has been lost to a black hole? Maybe. Anything is possible.
What I enjoy about this topic is all of the little side discussions. For example, the theory that the speed of light is equal to the escape velocity of the "core" (for lack of a better word) of a black hole. Thus, helping to explain why the hole is black in the first place, light cannot escape. However, given that all electromagnetic radiation travels at the speed of light, how is it that we observe enormous amounts of gamma radiation emitted at a perpendicular axis to the black hole?
Another fun bit to this topic is the Big Bang - Big Crunch hypothesis. That's just fun! The possibility that everything just keeps going and going and going until everything is infinitely far away from everything else. Or, that there wasn't enough initial energy for that to happen, so gravity ultimately prevails and everything starts accelerating towards everything else, ending in a Big Crunch (this is where my money is). Or, for those who like the fence, an ultimate equilibrium of harmonic expansion and contraction of the universe. All very interesting stuff. The only sad bit is that unless we (collectively, as a species) get ourselves off this rock and live elsewhere, we will never know since long before any of that ever happens our sun will have run it's course, went supernova and have consumed our entire solar system. Pity.
Well the big bang to me makes about as much since as the earth being created in 6 days as told by the christians. Sorry had to add that little tid bit.
And one day to end the earth, i believe will end by being sucked into a black hole. which will then end up comeing out of that as energy from that black hole.
And one more to boot lol
All of space is i believe not forever big. There is a end some where i think. where idk lol haven't been there yet. but it is all threorys.
Black holes devower everything in its path. They destory things. They would be an awesome source of power but not sure how we could utilise it as everything that gets pulled into it is gone forever.
I don't think there is enough evidence yet to prove what exactly they do beyond what is obviously there...... duh I know but think about it. Also without going into a black hole.... has any country sent in probes?? How are we to know anything.
I don't believe that any probe - no matter even if they could reach a black hole from here - could ever transmit after being sucked into a black hole... To be fair the probe would probably just be destroyed.
As for that oscilation of the Universe theory, I think some refer to it just as the big crunch theory - only difference is it expands again afterwards. And yes, I agree, that is where my money is too :/
JMC- A lot of people have asked me that question over the last 3 years or so.
Although the entire 2012 situation is fascinating and offers a lot to talk about, when dealing with the centre of the galaxy and earth the answer is a bit off a let down.
The Earth is not directly connected to the MW centre gravitationally in fact were not entirely sure as to why the Earth wasn't flung off long ago. The earth is something like 30,000 light years from the galactic centre. The best analogy I can give (at 5am my time) is an object in the Oort Cloud has more disruptions from the Sun than Earth would by the MW centre.
A pole shift is a matter of high velocity rotations in a liquid environment. As interesting as it may be to think about the effects on earth our 2012 position may bring; it would be better to think on how the past 3-400 polar shifts have happened, when the earth wasn't in any "special" place.
that is intresting thing too so i hear about 2012
and ponders about what will happen in that time and the time following up to it.
I watched a special on Black Holes. It was from like 2004, but it was centered around a conflict between Stephen Hawking (if you don't know who he is, look him up before everyone finds out and laughs at you) and some other physicist. Basically, Hawking used to put forth that all information that was absorbed into the Black Hole was destroyed, never to be recovered, but the other guy's theory was that the information wasn't lost, and in keeping with Newton's laws, mathematically proved that his theory was correct, and that Hawking's theory was wrong.
For once in my life, I had to agree with this other guy. Hawking was wrong in that aspect. As something approaches the singularity, and it becomes "spaghettified", the "data" is smeared, stretching towards the event horizon and singularity. In this respect, it can be recovered, were it possible to travel into and out of the black hole.
Theoretical physics is friggin' badass.
Great topic! Through this we're going to go off into many different tangents and then end up back at the same place. For example, the unnamed physicist vs. Hawkings. My first thought was how in the heck did someone using Newtonian physics end up in a head-to-head with Hawkings? Every since Einstein came along, when we think about singularities and quantum physics, Newtonian laws go out the window (for the most part). If you like, I could show you how 1 + 1 = 3...the logic will be sound, but the math will be flawed. I think the root of this problem, and many others, is that we are still striving for a Unified Theory. Einstein started us down the path, but we're not there yet. That's what makes all of this so exciting, the fact that we don't know. Many things we have models to support and no direct evidence to disprove the theory (space-time dilations, for example, close to the event horizon of a black hole). Another is that the speed of light is the Universal speed limit. Nothing can travel faster than the speed of light. So, is it true? No. Is it false? No. Fun, huh?!?
it may be possible because a black hole absorbs the energy and doesnt release any so it must be " stored"
in the hole and the hole must have a limit to what it can hold, or in another theory it may release previous matter to make room for new ones
a black hole in theory is an event horizon that consume all that comes in contact with. but we dont know for sure what happens inside such an event horizon. but it very well could be possible.
Black holes are a one way thing. Matter that gets 'sucked' into them is squished and ... squashed to nothing until there is nigh nothing left. They're a one way thing.
Energy or matter can not be retrieved.
[end my opinion].
Until anything can be proven and we can get true access to a black hole all we can do is some things up and theorise, just like scientists.
There is a theory that black holes are stars or planets that have imploded causing a hole or rift. This hole or rift then becomes a vacuum that sucks everything around it into it.
On the Centre of the universe, well we have all been told the universe is infinite. There is no boundary or end to it. So if that is the case how can there be a centre? So the idea that the earth will align with the centre of the universe can not be factual as there is no evidence only theories to support it.
what do you think about pockets of static space xavier?
I think in time we will get the opportunity to put all these questions and theories to rest. It may take another 100 or more years but we will learn to travel outside our own solar system and discover the truth.
I have heard all these theories, that black holes were nothing but vacuums in space, dead ends and time rips. We honestly don't know and will not know until we can send in a probe to find out.
hmmmm i do quite like the idea of time travels, through black holes. or perhaps just transport... but, i really do not know. what if its just liek a gargabe disposal and destroys what enters?
a hole is kind of difficult to imagine in space because its such a 2-D concept. imagine now what you think a black hole looks like. i'm willing to bet that you imagined something flat. now i doubt a flat object exists, what would the other side look like? a white hole where the energy is expelled out of? doubtfully.
I have a theory that the energy and matter absorbed into such a high gravity area is packed so tight that the space between atoms and heck even within atoms that it becomes something new. but er, being no physicist this concept is comical at best and reminiscent of a pearl in an oyster with a slight hint of the game Katamari.
Response to one of the previous posts. It is now believed that at the center of our Universe is a super massive black hole. So one would hope that earth doesnt get to the center of our galaxy because polar shift would be the least of our worries.
Also I do believe the a black hole condenses the matter that is absorbs, but doesnt destroy it so it is theoretically possible to obtain the matter, but the trick is how to not be smashed over and over again and again by the black holes gravity.
Also it is believed that if you travel on the outer rim of a black hole you can obtain a speed faster than light and potentially travel back in time because the gravity of the black hole is believed to bend not only light but also time as well. Traveling at a speed that much faster than light would also effect the pull of the black hole on the object traveling the outskirts of it and make it capable of breaking the black holes pull once obtaining enough speed.
DarkIllusion01- Who said theres a supermassive BH in the centre of the universe? The universe has no centre what so ever and any BH would have zero gravitational effect on things more than even a few hundred thousand light years.
As to static regions of space-time I'm not exactly sure what you're asking. Are you talking about a Killing vector field or areas of space-time that simply don't expand for other reasons?
I said universe. I ment Galaxy just didnt notice it till after I posted it.
it is a matter of serious concern for all the human beings of earth.black holes if what i heard is to destroy our planet but the fact is still very contradicting and various scientists have given different opinions .
Well for starters there is absolutely NO scientific proof to back up the possibility of time travel in any way. And for one to say that because a black hole has the ability to suck in light it also can possess the ability of time travel is somewhat ridiculous. The galaxy is....the galaxy. Why the human race tries to find an explanation for everything i will never understand. I just think that it's just apart of the universe. Nothing special about it. And no i don't believe that a black home in space can possess the ability of time travel. LOL
darkXwhisper, I think I know what you're saying but I don't agree with the way you've said it. Science absolutely does support the concept of time travel and the technique has been demonstrated. Einstein's Theory of Relativity fully supports the concept of time travel. Space-time is relative. The amount of time that passes for any of us is relative to our position in space, or more accurately, our position relative to mass. The less affected your position by a gravitational field, the faster time passes.
This has been confirmed through the use of atomic clocks. Two such clocks are synchronized. Then one is loaded aboard an aircraft and sent at high altitude for a number of hours. When the plane lands, the clock on board does indeed show a very slight variation from the clock on the ground. Sergei Vasilyevich Avdeevwas has spent 748 days aboard the Mir space station, propelling him 20 milliseconds into the future. It's not very satisfying and certainly not the idea most people hold when the term "time-travel" crops up, but it is, none-the-less, time-travel and fully supported by science.
As for black holes and fear of black holes, people alive today can relax. There is no known mechanism by which any black hole can cease to exist once it forms. This means that every black hole ever formed still exists today. More black holes are forming all of the time so the number continues to grow. And as stated before, it has been discovered that most (if not all), galaxies contain a super-massive black hole at their center. Some of these black holes are feeding, others are not. But they could start feeding again at any time. The Earth is not near enough to any known black hole to cause anyone concern for hundreds of millions of years. We're far more likely to destroy ourselves long before any black hole gets the opportunity to crush the earth into a mere fleck of matter.
And for those who suggest that black holes destroy matter, I know of zero evidence to support such an idea. Keep in mind that atoms are made primarily of what we would call "nothing". The distance between an atomic nucleus expanded to the size of a basketball, and the electrons orbiting that nucleus, would be half the distance across a common county. And the electrons, expanded to the same scale, would be roughly the size of a grain of sand. Were it not for the electrical charge, matter would easily pass through other matter because there is so little substance to it. The gives black holes a lot of space to "squeeze" out of every atom before ripping it to it's constituent parts and packing them tightly into the singularity at its center.
And yet there is proof of time travel as stated above. Actually everything that Beastt17 said was accurate. So before trying to insult me, make sure you know what you are talking about.
From where does the idea come that black holes are vacuums in space? Space IS a vacuum (or very nearly so). Black holes don't operate on pressure differentials as do vacuums that suck things up. Black holes operate on intense gravitational fields resulting from densely packed matter. If the matter wasn't retained in the singularity (the mass at the center of the black hole), the gravitational field wouldn't continue to grow. The matter drawn into a black hole is not destroyed as is evident by the gravitational field it creates. (That's a little peek at the fact that we can make determinations about the other side of the event horizon, whether or not we can cross that boundary and send information back.)
The matter is retained and adds it's influence to the warping of space-time to that already existing in the singularity. This warping of space time results in a tendency for mass to be drawn from a point of lesser warping, to one of greater warping (closer to the bulk of the mass) -- gravity. In the case of a black hole, the velocity of light is insufficient to escape this attraction, so they emit no light. Photons, like everything else, are drawn across the event horizon and into the singularity so they never reach our eyes.
As for time travel, if you warp space you also warp time. And if you can warp time, you can change your position within time.
However, that said, I think people forget that time is not a growing ruler with us sitting at the leading edge. When contemplating time-travel, it's necessary to see the future as something which exists concurrent with the present and the past. That would mean that if man ever achieves the ability to move back in time, we should be seeing travelers from the future, here in our time. Either they're keeping their existence very well hidden, or the conclusion must be that at no point in the future will man ever be traveling to the past because they're not here now.
It is alot of theoryes about blackholes. There is also a theory that whole universe was created thru a blackhole. There is also whiteholes that is the opposite to blackholes. I guess is when a star die and there is some amount of energy left so maybe that is a key to it?
..and then some cretinous twerp decides to make black holes on Earth. (See 'Great Hadron Collider.')
..can't fingure why the mostly American backers don't want it built in America, can you?
we could only retreive information that the black hole sucked up
what would be the use of that?
Pantervamp,
I've not heard a theory that the universe was created through a black hole. If you have any more information on this I would find it interesting because it seems self-refuting to me. A black hole forms when a star fuses so much of its hydrogen into helium that the outward force of the fusion no longer balances against the inward force of the star's gravity. This results in a collapse of the star into a very dense point of immense gravity -- a black hole. Stars, hydrogen, helium and gravity are all properties of the universe and cannot exist without it. I'm unsure how one can present a model of the creation of the universe which requires the existence of the universe at the start. Such a theory would seem to have the cart before the horse as well as after. Of course I'm no particle physicist so there may well be something I'm missing.
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Angelus,
There is really very little chance that the LHC would produce a black hole and if it did, it would be based on the velocity of the particle and not a collective gravitational field as in the classical cosmic black holes. This being the case, the chance that such a black hole would persist for more than a few nanoseconds is very nearly beyond reasonable consideration.
What the LHC does promise are energies applied to particles of up to 7-times that produced in the collider at Fermilab (in Batavia, Illinois) and reproduction of the state of matter a few billionths of a second after the Big Bang. Protons will be accelerated at forces of up to 7 TeV (that's Trillion Electron-Volts), or about seven times the force of a flying mosquito. But remember that a proton is unimaginably smaller than a mosquito, yet still carrying such relative energies. Slamming two such protons together results in a collective energy release on the order of 14 TeV. Research should be able to produce the Higgs boson which will explain how matter and energy can be two states of the same thing, yet with matter having substance while energy does not. The LHC also hopes to reveal the finite particle of all matter, beyond which there is no further division. In summary; the LHC should provide physicists the elusive "answer to everything". Of course that's "everything" as seen from a position of physics but it's no small promise to fulfill.
---
IneedSaving,
Much can be learned by knowing information about what a black hole has ingested. Simply measuring the gravitational force this side of the event horizon can tell us many things about the fate of the matter once it crosses the event horizon. Should the gravitational field of a black hole grow as it continues to feed, it can be assumed that the matter does not break down to a form of material which does not warp space-time. Of course not being a particle physicist, I have only a fraction of an idea about the information which can be deduced but as is, it may be our best source of information concerning black holes and what we can learn about them.
I think Pantervamp is confused about the origin of the universe. It has been postulated that all matter in the universe was contained in a singularity. As far as I'm aware, no one has claimed said singularity was within a black hole. I'm interested to see if he/she can pull up a scientific article that actually mentions a black hole as the origin, however. It would certainly put a new perspective on the situation...
Pantervamp -
White holes do not exist.
This was taken from a site called curious.astro.cornell.edu.
''What is a white hole?
The short answer is that a white hole is something which probably cannot exist in the real universe. A white hole will turn up in your mathematics if you explore the space-time around a black hole without including the star which made the black hole (ie. there is absolutely no matter in the solution). Once you add any matter to the space-time, the part which included a white hole disappears.
How can you have a black hole with no mass?
Mathematically this is actually the simplest kind of black hole. Once the singularity is set up it will hold itself together, so the tricky part is setting up the singularity.
The only way to set up the singularity in the real universe is to start with it being there. Somehow the universe has to form with ready made singularities.
Why can't white holes exist in nature?
There is no reason to suggest that the universe started out with ready made singularities. It would actually be quite odd if it did.
Once even the tiniest speck of dust enters the part of space-time which includes the black hole, the part which includes the white hole disappears. The universe has been around for a long time and so even if it did start with white holes, they would have all disappeared by now.
Why bother with the solution if it isn't realistic?
It's easier than realistic solutions. (!)
Part of the solution is close to being realistic. This part does not include the white hole and describes the space-time outside of a normal black hole.
What would a white hole look like if it did exist?
The people/person who came up with the term 'white hole' was actually being quite literal. A white hole is pretty much like an 'anti-black hole'. A black hole is a place where matter can be lost from the universe. A white hole is a place where (if it could exist with any matter in it - which it can't) matter would pop out into the universe. This has many similarities to the Big Bang singularity (although it's not quite the same, since there was nothing before the Big Bang).''
about the theory about universe was born thru a blackhole so did i actually find some info.
If black holes and the Big Bang befuddle you, try wrapping your brain around this one: The entire universe may have been created in an explosion inside a black hole.
"It's a mathematically plausible model which refines the standard model of the Big Bang," said Blake Temple, a mathematician at the University of California, Davis.
The standard model holds that the universe began about 13.7 billion years ago. The Big Bang is described not as an explosion so much as a rapid outflow of material from a point of nearly infinite density. It is a theory, one among several attempting to describe the observed expansion of the universe today. It has not been proved.
The Big Bang has been compared to black holes before, because the tremendous crush of matter that defines a black hole is much like the unfathomable density that preceded the Big Bang. Both phenomena are termed singularities.
In the proposed modification to the standard model, the Big Bang is an actual explosion, Temple explained today in a statement, and it occurs within a black hole in an existing space. The shock wave of the explosion is expanding into an infinite space.
Temple also describes the whole scenario as a white hole, the theoretical opposite of a black hole because it tosses matter outward instead of pulling it in.
White holes have been talked about before, mostly as mathematical curiosities. There is no evidence these "anti-black holes" exist, whereas scientists have solid evidence for the presence of black holes.
Eventually, Temple says, the universe will emerge from all this as something like an exploded star, called a supernova, but on an enormously large scale. He said the new theory satisfies Einstein's equations in the General Theory of Relativity, which gave rise to the Big Bang theory.
Temple can't say where the matter we see today originally came from. What existed before the Big Bang? This, in fact, is a thorn in the side of all cosmologists, and it may never be answered because we can't see time and space as it existed prior to time as we know it.
But Temple and colleague Joel Smoller, from the University of Michigan, wrote recently in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences:
"It is natural to wonder if there is a connection between the mass that disappears into black hole singularities and the mass that emerges from white hole singularities."
And it remains to be seen, or more likely not, whether any of this is true.
source: http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/white_hole_030917.html
I believe that black holes are created when two atoms actually touch. nothing is touching right now, isn't that wierd? and if it did, it would creat a gigantic explosion and make a black hole :)
Here’s an interesting theory, a black hole yes pulls all light and or energy into it within the reach of its gravity. Now who’s to say a black hole leads to now where and that these planets, stars, and energy are just pulled into a black void? What if the black hole simply leads somewhere else in the universe and the reason we can’t spot the exit is because there would be stars, and matter lying in front of the exit? Or because it is just simply too far away for us to see?
Pantervamp,
The article is an interesting read but seems to answer far fewer questions than does the standard model. It seems to be more of a "proof of concept" exercise than an attempt to model reality, don't you think?
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XTCraver,
Just curious; is there a reason you doubt the standard model for black holes and replace it with an assumption which seems to provide neither mechanism nor evidence of/for black holes?
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UTAHVAMP
Noting that a black hole is a region of intense gravity, (severe warping of space time through condensed matter), how is one to picture this singularity of intensely dense matter as a pathway or tunnel rather than an obstruction to any such tunnel. And if the matter is siphoned away to another location, what causes the intense gravity at the point of the black hole to persist?
---
I would think it doubtful that black holes are any kind of gateway to anywhere. They appear to be, by all evidence and mathematical models, a nearly infinite warp in the fabric of space-time which causes all matter, including that traveling at the speed of light, to become incorporated as a part of the singularity -- that intensely dense ball of condensed matter at the center of the black hole. Such a model seems to answer most questions about them as well as complying with the evidence presently at hand.
As explained before, there are external evidences which can serve to provide us with evidence suggesting certain properties concerning the internal operation and condition of a black hole. Matter entering a black hole is not crushed into oblivion or the gravitational force resutling from the density of matter would cease to exist as the matter was destroyed. One of the fundamental principles of the universe is that matter cannot be created, nor can it be destroyed. Granted, without knowing the physics at work within a black hole, one cannot be certain that the same physical laws outside of the black hole will persist. However, in that the black hole retains it's gravitational force, it can be deduced with reasonable certainty that the matter within the singularity retains at least some properties of matter with which we are familiar; particularly the ability to warp space-time resulting in gravitational force. That means the matter must still exist within the black hole and isn't going anywhere.
I must say I am an ignorant in this domain, but I heard that the black holes have a correspondence in white wholes and every pieces of matiere goes in an other side of the universe.At least I heard about a theory that sustaines the idea.
I think perhaps the point to be made here is that while we don't know everything there is to know about black holes, we do have a fairly clear base understanding of what they are and how they operate. In fact, we actually held such an understanding of them before their existence had been confirmed.
Einstein's calculations on the speed of light and gravitational fields led him him to conclude that black holes could exist. That was his objective observation. His personal subjective observation was that they probably did not exist. He considered them to be too "weird" to be an actuality, and suggested that some, as yet unknown, process, principle or physical law, likely prevented their formation. As with his cosmological constant (and as is nearly always the case), his objective observations were correct and his subjective observations (those things inherent to one's beliefs independent of evidence), were wrong.
The idea is really very simple. As a general model; for any given gravitational field, there exists a minimum velocity which will allow an object to escape that gravitational field. For Earth's gravity, that velocity is roughly 7 miles per second (25,200 mph). For example, if a ball were sitting at the equator and could be instantly infused with a speed along a radius away from the planet, any speed less than 25,200 mph would result in the ball being launched high into the atmosphere but it would then fall back to Earth. If the ball is infused with a speed of 25,200 mph or more, it will completely escape Earth's gravity and continue into space. As the mass creating the gravitational field increases, so does the strength of the gravitational force and thusly, the escape velocity.
For instance, Jupiter, having many times the mass of Earth, has an escape velocity of 36.97 miles per second (133,000 miles per hour). If an object of sufficient mass exists, the escape velocity rises to above the speed of light. At this point, even light cannot escape the gravitational field and we have a black hole. Of course there is a bit more complexity as the radius of the mass also becomes a factor. But in simplified form, that's all a black hole is -- a collection of mass sufficient to great a gravitational field with an escape velocity which is at least the speed of light.
The truly odd stuff begins to occur when you begin to consider the effect such a dense clump of mass has on space-time. Mass warps space-time. As you sit in front of your computer, your body causes a very slight warping of the space-time in your vicinity. Other objects will tend to travel from positions of lesser warping to positions of greater warping. That's all gravity really is -- a consequence of space-time density relative to any other region of space-time density. Think of space time as a sheet of 3D fabric -- a grid which extends in all directions. Pull at any point on the grid and you will affect local points on the grid, but to a lesser degree. The degree of the effect falls off as a consequence of distance.
A black hole, in it's simplest form, is just a collection of mass sufficient to create a gravitational field with an escape velocity equal to, or greater than, the speed of light.
Typos, typos, typos... My apologies. That should have read;
[A black hole is]...
"a collection of mass sufficient to GENERATE a gravitational field with an escape velocity which is greater than the speed of light."
Pretty much.
And (off-topic, I know) the theories involving time-travel involve quantum foam and particle accelerators, and none of them involve travel into the past (that is, before the creation of said "time machine"). Certain laws of physics (don't ask me to look them up) claim that it would be impossible to travel into the time prior to the creation of a time machine, simply because it didn't exist at that time.
shadowofmystry,
In a manner of speaking, yes; it's a mass of danger. But this shouldn't be limited to concepts of black holes. If you suddenly find yourself 100-miles above the surface of the Earth, the gravity generated by Earth's mass will be no more conclusive to your life processes than if you were crossing the event horizon of a black hole.
---
La6Muerte66,
I agree that if time-travel required a time machine, it would be implausible to engage in time travel prior to the creation of the machine. But such a view relies upon a model of time as static and inextricably linked to the traveler. Einstein showed that time is not static. It's relative.
Just as one can move away from gravitational fields and experience an acceleration of time, they can also move to stronger gravitational fields and experience the slowing of time.
This creates what I see as a paradox (likely only a lack of understanding on my point), concerning the standard model of black holes. Some claim that as you cross the event horizon, the gravitational field becomes so intense that time slows to a stand-still. I understand the concept as greater gravitational force results in a slowing of time. But if this is the case, then how is it that any mass can actually cross the event horizon. To do so would require movement and movement occurs only at a rate. That rate is a ratio of time to distance and if time has stopped, no movement should occur.
If you figure that one out, let me know. ;)
Beastt17 - I think that the answer to your query may lay in the nature of an asymptotic relationship. As matter moves closer to the event horizon, the force of gravity increases asymptotically and the relative passing of time, and hence movement, decreases similarly. So, it stands to reason that a vast majority of the matter in a black hole is just beyond the event horizon. It also stands to reason that since the movement of the matter is following an asymptotic curve, none of it will ever actually reach the center of a black hole. Of course, it is moving and, reaching the event horizon means crossing the event horizon, and once that happens we can, unfortunately, make no direct observation.
Black holes are the evolutionary endpoints of stars at least 10 to 15 times as massive as the Sun. If a star that massive or larger undergoes a supernova explosion, it may leave behind a fairly massive burned out stellar remnant. With no outward forces to oppose gravitational forces, the remnant will collapse in on itself. The star eventually collapses to the point of zero volume and infinite density, creating what is known as a " singularity ". As the density increases, the path of light rays emitted from the star are bent and eventually wrapped irrevocably around the star. Any emitted photons are trapped into an orbit by the intense gravitational field; they will never leave it. Because no light escapes after the star reaches this infinite density, it is called a black hole.
Please include links to copied information.
STABB
It would be nice in this lifetime if we could get concrete answers regarding black holes. There are many interesting theories, but as we stand right now, we really don't know...it's kinda' like waiting for someomne to die, go to a Hereafter, then come back and tell us what he/she saw and learned...
It would be good to find out, but doesnt everything that goes in to a black hole get ripped apart?
I'm not sure I understand, Isis101;
What is it you're wanting to know?
ladydragon423, if you'd been reading the discussion, you'd know already that the idea of black holes leading elsewhere is a mathematical implausibility.
As for time slowing to a standstill in a black hole...
I've heard that's the most common theory nowadays. No matter actually crosses the event horizon, but remains paused in time indefinitely just at the edge, its image smeared along the outside of the black hole.
Do the math...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_time_dilation
furcifer,
That's certainly an interesting thought (asymptotic relationship), though I must admit that my grasp of the concept is somewhat tenuous. Another suggestion seems to be that it has to do with the relativity of time perspectives. From the perspective of anyone crossing the event horizon, time (and therefore movement), appears steady while one looking on from outside of the event horizon observes the subject crossing to slow, then freeze in motion and time. Relativity really plays with our concept of reality when we begin to understand that the exact same event can be so completely different to two observers, simply based on their spacial relationship to the event. (i.e. frozen time/motion vs. constant time/motion despite it being the same event and loosely speaking, the "same time"), simply viewed from different positions.
ladydragon423,
We can be reasonably certain that what goes into a black hole ISN'T gone. If it vanished or were destroyed, there would be no mass inside the black hole. Without mass, the gravitational field (warping of space-time) ceases and the black hole vanishes. As long as the black hole persists (infinitely, according to theory), it serves to assure us that the matter upon which it feeds still exists as a form of mass capable of warping space-time, resulting in gravity, resulting in the continued existence of the black hole.
No mass = no gravity = no black hole.
Does that help?
In "A brief history of time" (at least I think that's where I saw it), the experience of traveling into a black hole would take weeks. Time, apparently, would be slowed exponentially as one neared the event horizon, and now that I recall it, the object travelling into the black hole, when viewed from the outside, would seem to slow to a crawl, eventually appearing to stop at a point before the event horizon, then VERY slowly stretching and smearing.
Correct my information if it's wrong. It's been a while since I've studied this.
Actually falling into a black hole would take forever. (See gravitational time dilation post above)
Objects that fall into a black hole ARE destroyed to this universe leaving only their mass and nothing else.
The question is... what is it that gives a particle mass anyway?
Hence the LHC research into the Higgs boson.
I'm fairly sure the question you intended to ask is; what gives mass substance, rather than; what gives a particle mass.
Right?
Mass is the amount of matter in an object. If the matter is destroyed completely - not compacted - what, exactly, would remain?
I do think that through the implimentation of a lacking in ones energy field and the natural process of energy as well as any other substance moving from a high energy field to a low one. I do think the use of voidal,abyssial and anti energy patterns can be woven for the use of shielding and thus in the creation of a blackhole can be used for many other purposes in a scientific method used in metaphysics with sound backing.
TO be able to create ablackhole through the implosion of energy particals to create a place of energy absorption I think would be a possibility to use and or store massive amount of energy similar to a bag of holding. Though to create such a place of anti energy it may disrupt the patterns bad enough if not correctly stabalized through the use of voidal energy found in the dead realms and other necromantic practitioner places often visited. I think this indeed may have a practical use.
OK, so I'm just trying to put things together.
A black hole is a highly compact body, so dense (or massive) that it creates a gravitational pull so strong that even light cannot escape its pull. This is assuming that light particles or photons can be measured. Not the propagation of light - but individual photons.
So the pull restricts the speed of a photon. Does it then reverse the direction of the photon? (keeping in mind that light has no mass).
It probably does although that's just my guess.
Black holes sound like bad news to me :/
There's something about space and the end of the universe as we know it that sends chills down my spine D:
La6Muerte66,
I think your definition of "mass" is close... perhaps accurate for most applications. However, I think I'm going to find safe harbor by defaulting to a dictionary definition specifically geared to physics.
"A property of matter equal to the measure of an object's resistance to changes in either the speed or direction of its motion. The mass of an object is not dependent on gravity and therefore is different from but proportional to its weight."
We cannot destroy mass but we can convert it to energy, ala E=MC^2. The mass is converted to energy and the energy still exists. I'm also finding what I consider to be a disagreement concerning the question of substance. It exists within matter, but not within energy. This is where the theoretical Higgs boson comes into play. And yet, electrical charges are said to be responsible for the inability of mass to simply pass through other mass. So obviously, there's something I'm missing.
That's an excellent question, Jesuis.
From what I can gather, (assuming I understood it which is a risky assumption, whether or not photons actually have mass depends on the definition you use for mass.
The older definition was; m = E / c^2
And is now termed "relativistic mass
The more common definition today is; m = E_0 / c^2
with the "E_0" representing the total energy of the object at rest. So a relativistic mass is velocity dependent. But under such a definition which yields calculations consistent with theory, a photon with a velocity does have a mass.
(If that helps you then it did more for you than it likely will for me until I've had a while to absorb it.)
XxNephthysxX,
I prefer to see it as a natural cycle. (One which likely won't change dramatically in my lifetime). Since every black hole that ever forms continues to exist, I can see no outcome other than the entire universe eventually being consumed by the total number of black holes which may exist by that time. It would seem likely that they will then begin to consume one another and eventually, there will exist one singularity as the sum total of the university
...the same state of the universe a nanosecond before the Big Bang.
WHOOSH!
Here we go again!!
maybe in another universe there is white holes.which look like stars.umm.two universes in a clyclictic arraingment?
i never believed in the big bang.if everything began with some primal lump it would have nothing to interract with so it would exist in a permanant present.so it would have no past or future to go bang in.
Thank you Beastt. So if the mass of a photon is retained, there is a potential that a black hole might be comprised of condensed light.
This would be accomplished by the power of the BH's pull on any mass converting it into light and thus toward its center. The speed with which any mass moves toward the center of the BH would have to reach speeds greater than the speed of light in order for light to be subject to the pull as well, thereby converting mass into light. Through this conversion we can see how black holes emit certain amounts of energy. As a general rule, whenever anything converts from one form of energy to another there is a certain amount of energy loss (i.e. it dissipates into the surrounding environment).
The hypothesis here rests in color theory. Black is the absence of light, and white is the presence of light. The outward appearance would be black and the interior (humans will never, ever have the capability of finding out) would be blindingly white.
As a side note to someone's comment above regarding Genesis vs. the Big Bang. If you consider that during the time that the original Book of Genesis was written, certain concepts and words had not been created, you might be able to see that Genesis actually describes the Big Bang. Words such as "waters" applies to gasses, "Earth" refers alternately to the world at large and then any natural solid structure. This is off topic though.
I Think That There Is Another Universe On The Other Side And All Light And Energy That Goes In Is Being Used To Create It.
Jesuis,
As I understand it the proposed definition of mass which allows photons to be said to have mass, relies upon movement. The photon must be moving or the calculation fails to produce mass. So once the light reaches the singularity, the mass would vanish. Keep in mind that I may be misunderstanding the concept.
As far as a black hole comprised completely of light, one must remember how a black hole forms. They start as a collapsed star. So even if one consumed only light, it would still have the mass of an entire star at its singularity. By studying the light from a star, we can discover that even in just the visible spectrum (4000 to 7000 angstroms), there are indications of at least 67 elements. The most abundant in our sun are seen to be helium, hydrogen, carbon, iron, oxygen, nitrogen, silicon, magnesium, neon and sulfur. Our sun, of course is a second generation star (as are all other stars we've analyzed). A first generation star would contain little other than hydrogen and helium.
As far as converting mass into light, I'm clueless. I don't know if this is theoretically plausible or not.
For the most part, when we see energy emitted from a black hole, it's in the form of electromagnetic signals such as radio and x-ray. The energy doesn't actually emanate from the hole itself (inboard of the event horizon), however, it's generated by the rapid acceleration of particles as they rush to the event horizon.
In regard to the color spectra of light, black is the absence of light but light can appear any color. It's only when you mix the entire scope of the visible wave lengths that we perceive white light. If those wave lengths are scattered and diffused, such as occurs in Earth's atmosphere, the color we perceive will depend on the wavelengths which engage in the greatest degree of diffraction and reflection. The tiny particles of debris in our atmosphere interact most with the smaller wave lengths of visible light (the blues), which is why the sky appears blue to us.
Of course we need to be extremely careful when even mentioning Genesis. That can rapidly drag the thread into an unintended direction. I'll say only that any story which has a planet form covered in water but without an atmosphere has things backward. Planets utilize their atmosphere to capture comets which contain a fair amount of ice and then to retain the water in that ice. If not for the barometric pressure exerted by the atmosphere, water would not remain liquid. It would quickly vaporize. And without the atmosphere to act as a retention bubble, the water vapor would simply drift into space. The same holds true of any claim that plants are growing on a planet which has no source of heat or light. Genesis suggests plants on day three, and the formation of the sun on day four. The plants mentioned are highly evolved species (grasses, herbs and fruit-trees). The first plants were far less highly evolved, likely resembling protists -- something closer to algae. Plants simply can't grow without light as they rely on photosynthesis to convert light into sugars upon which the plants feed. Take away the warmth of the sun and the Earth would be roughly the temperature of space, around 454 degrees BELOW zero, Fahrenheit (about 5° above absolute zero) -- not exactly an agricultural cornucopia.
Without attempting to step on any toes here, the evidence demonstrates that it's but a story written by people with a vast lack of understanding concerning some of the key principles of reality and bears no credible resemblance to any viable scientific theory. To engage this further would require a review of forum rules (I'm not sure it would be allowed), and a new thread.
MyArmyMyMilitaryMyLife,
The idea that we're clueless about black holes appears to persist. This is, generally speaking, not at all the case. I've been trying to help clear the commonly held mystery and misconception (along with a few others here), but seem to be failing. Perhaps my posts are simply too long to generate much interest.
Try to think about a black hole the same way you might think about the Earth. Let me explain. The Earth is a large collection of mass. As such, it tends to warp the space-time around it. Mass shows a greater affinity to areas of greater warping than those of lesser warping. The result is what we call "gravity". Objects traveling through space which come within Earth's gravitational field are drawn to the Earth. Many penetrate the atmosphere and crash into the planet; numerous comets, meteors, etc., as well as gases, every day.
This is exactly what happens with a black hole, simply on a larger scale. Just as objects which are drawn in by Earth don't follow any need to then escape Earth, things which go "into" a black hole needn't "come out". Think of a black hole as an extremely large planet. It's total mass is so great that it doesn't just capture meteors, asteroids and comets like the Earth, it also captures light, stars, planets and galaxies.
From there we can note that the total gravity of a black hole is sufficient to crush its mass into a tiny speck called a "singularity" -- something like wading a ball of foil into a smaller ball of foil. All of the foil is still there, it simply occupies less space. The main principles of a black hole are exactly the same as Earth drawing nearby objects toward it and causing them to collide with Earth and to be retained by Earth.
There is little mystery until one begins to contemplate quantities of mass sufficient to warp space-time to the maximum possible degree. And black holes do indeed contain sufficient quantities of mass to cause such a degree of warp.
Please let me know if that clears things up for you. If not, I'll try to find another way to explain it.
Hi LordSesshoumaru,
I'm seeing the use of many words which are giving (or indicating), a dramatic misconception to the mechanisms of a black hole.
There is no "in". Something which is attracted to the gravity of a black hole, crosses the event horizon and becomes part of the singularity hasn't gone "in" to anything. It's the same as a meteor which travels through space, is caught in Earth's gravitational field and crashes to Earth. It didn't go "in" to Earth and things don't really go "in" to a black hole. It only appears that they do because light can't escape a black hole. So objects attracted to the gravity of a black hole reach the point beyond which light can't escape, then disappear to any outside observer. Light can't reflect off the object back out past the event horizon so we perceive the object as vanishing.
In reality, it simply collides with the singularity and becomes part of the singularity just as a meteor collides with Earth and becomes part of the total mass of Earth.
Think of the "event horizon" as the edge of a cliff. If you stand at the edge and keep moving toward the cliff, you'll reach a point at which it's not possible to keep from falling. That point is the "event horizon". It's the point at which "objects" will be unable to avoid being drawn in to the singularity at the center of a black hole. If it helps, think of it as the edge of a waterfall.
Understanding this helps to demonstrate the lack of likelihood that anything is being transferred "out" to another universe. There is no "in" and there is no "out" and there is no "other side". If you can see that a comet falling to Earth doesn't pop out on "another side", then apply exactly the same principle to a black hole. It's just a large collection of mass, creating a strong gravitational field, causing things to be attracted to it.
If you get to that level of understanding, only then is it time to muddy the water with infinite densities, infinite warping, worm-holes and all of the other theoretical sediments.
Wouldnt a black hole rip anything apart that comes close to it?
Do you perhaps remember the collision between Jupiter and the Shoemaker-Levy 9 comet? In case you don't, this fairly large comet came too close to Jupiter and was caught in Jupiter's gravitational field. As the acceleration toward Jupiter overcame the structural integrity of the comet, it broke into several parts (between 19 and 21). This is the same kind of force behind the destruction of structural integrity of objects which come too close to a black hole.
So a black hole, like any other massive body providing significant gravitational attraction, can tear things apart. But it's not unique to black holes, nor will it destroy absolutely anything that comes "near". The object must come close enough to be drawn in by the black hole's gravitational force and the forces applied to the object between gravitational attraction and the objects inertia must overcome the structural integrity of the object.
This is the same reason you can smoothly tow a trailer behind a car at 50 mph, but if you connect the two with a half mile of chain so that the car reaches 50 mph before the chain transfers the force to the stationary trailer, pieces of the car and pieces of the trailer will likely be ripped apart.
i think that a black hole is a black hole and it does what it does and well we have found ways to stop pr reverse what other thing do so im sure that it will be the same with black holes some day
Xzavier -
There actually have been some scientific reports as to the existance of a supersized black hole at the center of the universe.
Now, even though the universe has no center, since it is expanding rapidly, there is the possibility of one being near the so called nonexistant center of it.
There are reports that the earth is only 6,000 years old as well, backed up by some scientists. Reports don't make right.
The big bang was an explosion of sorts right? What lies at the centre of an explosion? Nothing.
The universe is made up of super clusters of galaxies which make a web of sorts, bound (in part) by dark matter. There isn't enough matter left in the universe to create a black hole strong enough to effect a super cluster or anything from "the centre."
The strength of black holes are greatly misunderstood and in this thread (and the public in general) greatly exaggerated.
Even a supermassive BH (in this case 10 billion solar masses) only has an event horizon of around 10AU (930,000,000)mi. 10AU is about the distance of Saturn from the Sun. In cosmic terms thats far less than an inch on an earth sized scale.
The oldest stars in the universe are said to be between 13 billion and 14 billions years old, correct? That would put them at around 13 to 14 billion light years away, no? Couldn't it be said that the center of the universe is half that distance? And since the universe is rapidly expanding in all directions it would stay about the same place?
Also, I do agree that people over estimate the power of black holes. But what most people know of black holes are from overexaggeration on their learning.
Actually the universe is far larger than 14bil LY.
As for the centre: The universe was created at the same time via the big bang thus the expansion rate of our area is the same as the expansion of an area 10bil LY away. Yes it started from a singularity but a singularity is NOT a place it is a state in which the physical theories break down and have no meaning. You couldn't say "Look, a singularity is over there."
It is best to think of the universe as a balloon. All the stars and matter exist on the balloons surface. As the balloon expands the distance between each star also expands but at the same amount. So no matter which star you go to no star is at the centre of the balloons surface. Oh, and since the universe is technically infinite in size there couldn't possibly be a centre.
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/GR/centre.html
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=232453
Fair enough.
However, I'd have to disagree with the universe having no center.
Since the universe is ever expanding thus being infinite the center would change every time it expands.
The only semi-accurate centre that could be found is literally "everywhere." Disagreements are fine but I assure you, as a scientist, the universe has no real centre :)
Alright. ;]
I'm afraid we've somehow gotten a bit off topic.
Back to the topic at hand, if energy would somehow be able to get returned from a blackhole it would be unable to be used. Because anything that does get drawn into a black hole is crushed to something almost less than microscopic.
BH's do release energy in the form of Hawking Radiation and other forms. In fact BH's will fully evaporate themselves over time.
Now yes what goes in doesn't come out the same but energy is energy.
What matter turns into is a mix of quantum foam, radiation and quanta or "information." These energy forms can over time be turned back into matter, of course we don't really know how that would work.
Energy can be squished but that doesn't change the fact that isn't still energy, just in a different form. The size of energy isn't measured in big, little, or microscopic terms.
A BH is not a "place of no return" in time all the information a BH absorbs will be released.
Even still. If information were released froma black hole it would be too distorted for proper use.
Thats only an assumption. Besides define "proper" use? lol.
Regardless black holes have nothing to do with Earth and other than education we earthlings have no use for black holes as it stands.