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Lost World of pre-ice age
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venumstings
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07:10:05 Jan 01 2010
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Deare Vampyres on Rave,

We understands that we were live even in ancient times and that world is lost due to Ice Age and before that Rama - Antlatis Civilization Wars which brought the complete Ice Age and the ice age which completely destroyed the rest of the world that only trails behind...

the nuclear weapon evidence found in Huruppa and Mohen jo-daro founds where in bones the radio activity of very high range is found and led to analyze that controlled nuclear weapons been used those time...

rest the ice age has destroyed...


Most thrilling of the world is Great Unconquered City Dwaraka submerged after the floods of ice age over. it riased the water level and this already knew by that civilization that the city will sink due to this happening and they escaped much before ice age...

Both air craft may be space craft used those time...

http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/32833/INDIA__ANCIENT_CITY_OF_KRISHNA_DWARKA_2_5/


please put the light on lost cities...




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venumstings
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07:18:22 Jan 01 2010
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Even the Giants of India too were the part of lost world who were truely high psychic peepal of darkness (Rakshasa - who eat raw flesh and blood even cannibles)

http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/3893/Giants_Found_in_India


They were truely mayahvi peepal (high psychic with magics)



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venumstings
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07:26:26 Jan 01 2010
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Sorry for my third post. This is most necessary to support my first post of the title...

http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/35871/Ancient_Atomic_Blast_and_Aeronautical_Science_/



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eternalknight
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20:12:02 Jan 01 2010
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i do belive there were more advance civilizations before us all we have to do is beliive and look and who knows what dicoveries we might unearth



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ThothLestat
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20:38:25 Jan 01 2010
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So, you contend that 5,000 years ago there was a nuclear war between Atlantis and Mohenjo-Daro that resulted in the melting of polar ice caps?

Pardon me if I seem skeptical.



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eternalknight
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20:41:05 Jan 01 2010
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i dont know anything about a nuclear war but there is far too many mentionings of atlantis in every culture around the world



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ThothLestat
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20:50:05 Jan 01 2010
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Are there any mentions of Atlantis that pre-date Plato?



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MidnightRedemptiom
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21:53:13 Jan 01 2010
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I haven't got the documentation with me to quote names and dates at the moment but didn't Plato get the maps and infomation from the ancient egyptian priests?

I have a book on the subject but I'll have to dig it out of my libary if anyone is interested.



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eternalknight
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21:54:13 Jan 01 2010
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yes there is i descend from the aztec people of mexico and we refer to atlantis as ATZLAN



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FallenxPrincess
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23:12:06 Jan 01 2010
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well as far as a nuck war back then is alittle far fetch for me to wrap my mind around that yet, hey look at the shows Stargate etc. Only unearthing sources will prove that there could had been a nuke war way back then, I thought the Ice age came from the planet changing. I am now curious as to if there were such technology as that back then.

Of course anyhting is possible just need to study and see I guess.



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MidnightRedemptiom
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00:39:39 Jan 02 2010
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Okay,

I’ve found the info regarding Atlantis and Egyptian maps in a book called ‘The mammoth encyclopaedia of unsolved mysteries’ by Colin and Damon Wilson plus another book called’ Atlantis: New evidence of ancient secrets’ by Frank Joesph.

Basically in it is an account of an Athenian named Solon who was a famous lawgiver who went to Sais, Egypt about 590bc, and heard the story of Atlantis from an Egyptian priest. According to the priest, Atlantis was already a great civilisation before any of the great cities came into existence and at the same time a copy of a map of Atlantis was given to Solon, which was eventually passed onto Plato along with the story.

There are a lot of sceptics who dismiss this story but according to some scholars there is a map of Atlantis still in existence and it places Atlantis in Antarctica.

It is called the Piri Reis map if you want to look up the story...



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drakeoness
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05:20:42 Jan 02 2010
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i believe it-hey-there have been pieces of lost underwater civilizations discovered already



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Artume
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06:21:25 Jan 02 2010
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If anything melted the polar caps, then it would have been what we are going through now. A shifting in the sun which caused or causes solar flares.

You see, back when and now, the Earths magnetic field was weakening. It is speculate to be once more. A sufficiently strong flare could have caused the ice caps to melt back in those days and could once more, thus causing a geomagnetic reversal, ie flipping of the poles.

Which could possibly explain why the Earth is not like it used to be and why so many changes have come and why archeologists have been discovering ancient relics and artifacts from the meso-era.

Clearly something catastrophic had happened to the first civilizations, but I highly doubt that it was due to a nuclear war of any kind.

If we are due for a second round of catestrophic associations, then it would more then likely happen in or around 2012, since the planets will be in perfect alignment during that time.



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Lethargy
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09:03:14 Jan 02 2010
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That just leads us back to the fact that humans cause the climate to change that destructively that it killed off nearly everything that lived. No sorry I dont believe that back then they had the tech knowledge to build those types of weapons.

I do however agree that they did have some techknowledge that put us to shame.

Yes wars did wipe out some cultures back then but to say it lead to the ice age....nope cannot agree with that.



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MidnightRedemptiom
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10:27:11 Jan 02 2010
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Yes I completely agree with you on that point Doctor, wars cannot create icecaps:D but what about a combination of natural climate change, some contential drift etc

A lot can happen in 6000 years which was when the south pole was last ice free and there is no disputing that the Piri Reis map exsists which shows the coast of Antarcia as it was with no ice.

I hate to advertise but I have a bit about it in my december journal if you care to look.



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ThothLestat
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15:09:16 Jan 02 2010
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Yes, the Piri Reis map exists but it was drawn in the 1500s and it doesn't seem to show the coast line of Antarctica. A comaprison with an azimuthal equidistant map centered on 0/0 (where the prime meridian meets the equator) shows how the Piri Reis map matches coastlines of Africa and South America, but the "Antarctic" coast is nowhere remotely close to the Antarctic circle.



It's clear to me that the Piri Reis map shows the Atlantic cost of South America tilted at an angle so it would fit on the map.



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LordWolf
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18:12:34 Jan 02 2010
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concerning the mention of atlantis before plato, (pardon me if this was already addressed) the answer is no, there is no such mention.

and as for atzlan, the aztec empire came into existence over 1000 years after the death of plato. there is some evidence for the existence of a place that plato based the story on, but it was far from an advanced civilization...more of a city state in the eastern med that was wiped from a volcano (at least that is just one explanation).

feel free to disagree ofcoarse, thats the point of our discussions no?
~W~



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MidnightRedemptiom
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21:21:21 Jan 02 2010
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Granted, the Piri Reis map was drawn up in the 1500's but it was claimed that it was copied from far earlier maps that were orginally found the the Great libary of Alexandria.

Below is a photo of the original map but you have to remember also that back then maps were very stylist and although I'm not sure I don';t think latitude and longutite was proberly worked out at this time.


Photobucket


The Piri Reis map shows the western coast of Africa, the eastern coast of South America, and the northern coast of Antarctica. The northern coastline of Antarctica is perfectly detailed. The most puzzling however is not so much how Piri Reis managed to draw such an accurate map of the Antarctic region 300 years before it was discovered, but that the map shows the coastline under the ice. Geological evidence confirms that the latest date Queen Maud Land could have been charted in an ice-free state is 4000 BC.

http://www.world-mysteries.com/new_sar_1.shtml



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eternalknight
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08:24:03 Jan 03 2010
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i we were to search the true library of alexandra we probably would find more info on atlantis maybe its true resting place if it did sink



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Artume
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09:30:58 Jan 03 2010
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Its true resting place is the Atlantic Ocean, thus the entitlement of Atlantic/Atlantis. Use Google Earth to find hidden easter eggs, or just watch a youtube of it.

As well, documents of archeological evidence are online for those who do searches for them.



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catseye
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13:39:06 Jan 03 2010
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the people of the canaria believed that they where the only people left on earth and their island was at the top of a mountian with a whole civilisation below under the sea.that googleearth thing found it and then got lent on to retract what everybody could clearly see in the photo.not something the rulers want the slave population to know.lots of societys round the world had cataclysm storys.plato called his atlantis because it was out in the atlantic.



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MidnightRedemptiom
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17:14:22 Jan 03 2010
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I've thought of a question thanks to catseye.

Was the Atlantic Ocean really called that because Plato believed Atlantis was there, or was the Atlantic named that due to Plato's speculation?? Curious people want to know.



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ThothLestat
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03:23:04 Jan 04 2010
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The Atlantic Ocean was called "Atlantic" because, to the Greeks, it was the ocean beyond the Atlas Mountains. "Sea of Atlas" became "Atlantic Ocean". The oldest known mention of this name comes from Herodotus around 450 BC.

Thus, "Atlantis" means "Island of Atlas". Plato described its location as lying "in front of the Pillars of Hercules" (the Strait of Gibraltar). Plato mentioned Atlantis in Timaeus, written around 360 BC.

Hmmm... I really should thank my parents for the Encyclopedia set they gave me.



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Artume
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06:31:59 Jan 04 2010
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Does the encyclopedia mention that Atlas was the ruler of atlantis? This would verify a couple of questions others would have regarding the domain known as Atlantis and why it is so represented by Greek and Platonic myths.



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MidnightRedemptiom
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06:51:48 Jan 04 2010
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Thanks for the reply Throth, I really must get myself a set of my own and good question soulshroude:)



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eternalknight
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08:18:35 Jan 04 2010
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i belive we have already found atlantis but the U.S goverment is hiding the truth they must have found something



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Artume
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08:44:44 Jan 04 2010
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The government may be hiding some facts regarding the continent in question, but there are archeological records proving its existance.



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Firmament
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09:20:40 Jan 04 2010
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Interesting read, over all- good points, but Atlantis was something more and not from here at its full extent, and as others have mentioned it has a reason why it was "Island of Atlas" as well as for those remnants of scattered "scientia".

Interesting read:
http://www.redicecreations.com/specialreports/2006/05may/atlantisDNA.html



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Theban
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12:28:09 Jan 06 2010
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I watched a documentary on nuclear war and in it they stated that it would cause an ice age....interesting that so many don't believe it would!

The documentary was hypothetical of course but it did appear to make sense.



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Theban
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12:40:30 Jan 06 2010
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And on the subject of weapons... it is said that the Alexandria's lighthouse had a weapon which was a mirror which could concentrate the sun and set the ships on fire...no proof but again plausable!



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Oblitus
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01:55:18 Feb 11 2010
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If Atlantis is real, then the U.S. government really is hiding something from us. Then again, that wouldn't be the first time.



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UpirLikhyj
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14:25:52 Feb 13 2010
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I must compliment many of you in providing a generally and wonderfully and refreshingly logical and on-point discussion of this topic, especially as regards the "Atlantis" myth. ThothLestat, in particular, has well responded to those forwarding as factual the Atlantis legend.

There will always be stories of fabled lost civilizations, lost islands or even continents, and other "lost" wonders to thrill to and speculate on. Even here in the Americas there were the many fabled "lost cities of gold" both in North, Central and South America... all of which began as stories either wholly invented on the spot or claimed to have been passed down through some generations, and almost none of which (if not, in fact, none of which) shown to have had any factual basis.

However... that said...

... this does not mean that prior to the current rise of Human civilization beginning in approximately 3,000 BCE that there could not have been major Human civilizations long predating that date.

If true that Humankind has existed on this planet for well over 100,000 years, it is at least possible to consider we might have had at least a couple rises and falls during such a long span of time. After all, from pyramid to skyscraper only took about 5,000 years. A mere drop in the bucket when comparing that with 100,000 years or more.

Graham Hancock's wonderful book "Fingerprints of the Gods" speaks to this and the possible archeaological evidences for such a theory. And perhaps, if the Earth's poles have indeed shifted or even reversed a time or two during that time, it is conceivable that perhaps at some point Antartica was... due to the poles shifting... in a temperate zone, free of ice, and perhaps inhabited much as Australia is today by far-flung ancestors of equal or greater technology. However, it would be highly doubtful that Plato, in 600 BCE, would have known a thing about it. After all, he was a philosopher... not an anthropologist.

Plato spoke of "Atlantis" as an allegory, an instrument in his political rhetoric, a "what-if" setting for his philosophical teachings... and not in an attempt to actually convince people of its supposed earlier existence. So... as with the vampire myths... while there might be some truth to the concept, yet all such has been so twisted out of context and original characteristics as to resemble not one whit its original nature.

Anyway... again... just my $0.02 worth.


- Upir'



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Chalk
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21:08:39 Feb 13 2010
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I honestly do not belive in "the lost city of atlantis". Ancient "historians" are well known for making up wild stories because it was more intresting.



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Majique
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05:37:08 Feb 17 2010
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Ok I may have my history wrong here, but I thought Plato actual had been to Atlantis which is why he wrote so much about it.

I also thought the poles shifted from a meteor that slammed into the earth causing an ice age and the death of the dinosaurs.

I believe there could have been civilisations pre ice age, but they couldn't have been human as we hadn't evolved that much! Well in my opinion and the understanding of human history as taught to me in school.

As for a nuclear war I find that a bit on the far fetched side.

Just my 2 cents worth!



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FallenStar
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06:57:27 Feb 17 2010
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May I recommend watching the latest discovery channel on Historic theories concerning Atlantis.
Some facts... and these are not in dispute.
1. Northern South America is currently under excavation for an ancient sea port and civilisation now underwater thought to pre-date 5000-10,000BC.
2. Local anti earthquake rock strata reveals metallurgy only developed in 1950 !
3. Atlan and Antis are two words which in ancient dialect mean Metal and Water.
4. These are relatively new compared to the grave of "the red man" discovered in a Welch Sea cave dated 30,000BC.

Decorated in beads the red man was really a woman given a special burial confirmed by DNA tests and Carbon dating.
Sorry to all the creationists!

Egypt...5000BC Wales 30,000BC...UK Rocks? LOL.
that's one for Merlin !



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Severus
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20:46:52 Feb 18 2010
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When it comes to Atlantis the lack of solid hands on proof is what scientists say prevents them from giving it any true credence. The problem with this answer is that there is far more conclusive proof of other civilization that they refuse to look at for me to believe that they would ever except the idea of an Atlantis.

Example:

The Spinx -

Said to be the bust of the Pharaoh Khafra which would put the building of it within the era of his reign in 2480 BC. The problem is that this theory should have been dismissed long ago yet it still remains as fact.

The Spinx rests within an enclosure, the walls of this enclosure have sever water erosion. There hasn't been any significant rainfall or flooding on the Giza Plateau in the last 36,000 years, and the Spinx would have had to already be present for such erosion to have occurredaround it. This is a geological fact that can not be faked or disproved. It is simply FACT - yet try to tell any scholar that the Spinx is on the order of 40 - 45 thousand years old and you will be laughed at.




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MidnightRedemptiom
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19:40:54 Feb 19 2010
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Good to see this thread still going. I remember reading a mag article a few years back about a very simular looking figure to the Sphinx being spotted on Mars if I remember correctly which is downright weird.

I'll have a look on the net to see if I can find the story and get back to everyone asap:)



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MidnightRedemptiom
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19:56:53 Feb 19 2010
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Okay, I've had a looking (admittedly very quick) and I have found some websites regarding the Sphinx/mars story and it is an intersting read, of course as you get with all strange/unusual stories it has it's distractors.

I think it depends on what you want to believe.

Below are three of the websites I found, The second link is a you tube video which is fasinating...if you ignore the music which is a bit melodramatic, for my taste at least:)


http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/smcnect.html


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rf6Vn-wqlh8


http://www.enterprisemission.com/Path-sphinx.html



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UpirLikhyj
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16:36:50 Feb 20 2010
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Fallingstar -

"1. Northern South America is currently under excavation for an ancient sea port and civilisation now underwater thought to pre-date 5000-10,000BC.
2. Local anti earthquake rock strata reveals metallurgy only developed in 1950 !"


This is fascinating; I'll have to look this up. Additionally, Graham Hancock's wonderful book "Fingerprints of the Gods" likewise investigates archeaological sites in Central and South America and, particularly as regards Mexico's fabulous Teotihuacan complex, likewise concluded that the metallurgy involved would have required knowledge only (re?)discovered in the 20th Century.

Of course, just because we are still unearthing more and more evidences of civilizations that existed far earlier than previously thought, this does not at all require us to conclude that all such are evidences of Plato's allegorical "Atlantis." What we can extrapolate from this, of course, is that ... as the forum topic suggests ... there were Pre-Ice Age civilizations that, perhaps in their own way, were superior in technology to our own.


"Decorated in beads the red man was really a woman given a special burial confirmed by DNA tests and Carbon dating.
Sorry to all the creationists!

Egypt...5000BC Wales 30,000BC...UK Rocks? LOL.
that's one for Merlin !"


Well... let's not extrapolate too far away from what the evidence reveals. While you are absolutely correct that belief in Biblical Creation is not well supported by the scientific and archeaological evidences uncovered (which is putting it mildly), let's not lump any and all views and theories re: Intelligent Design (ID) as requiring a belief in such religious mythology.

Thanks for the great info!


- Upir'




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eternalknight
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17:00:35 Mar 04 2010
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did anyone hear about the pyramids found off the coast of japan?



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GlasgowGrin
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18:08:59 Mar 04 2010
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i thought it was china but yeah lol still asiaan pyramids



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Severus
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18:10:01 Mar 04 2010
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Better yet try to question the scientific comunity about the Transvaal spheres!!

For the past three decades miners at the Wonderstone Silver Mine near Ottosdal in Western Transvaal, South Africa, have been extracting out of deep rock several strange metallic spheroids. So far at least 200 have been found. In 1979, several were closely examined by J.R. McIver, professor of geology at the University of Witwaterstand in Johannesburg, and geologist professor Andries Bisschoff of Potsshefstroom University.

The metallic spheroids look like flattened globes, averaging 1 to 4 inches in diameter, and their exteriors usually are colored steel blue with a reddish reflection, and embedded in the metal are tiny flecks of white fibers. They are made of a nickel-steel alloy which does not occur naturally, and is of a composition that rules them out as being anything other than man made.
Some have only a thin shell about a quarter of an inch thick, and when broken open are found filled with a strange spongy material that disintegrated into dust on contact with the air.

What makes all this very remarkable is that the spheroids were mined out of a layer of pyrophyllite rock, dated both geologically and by the various radio-isotope dating techniques as being at least 2.8 to 3 Billion years old.

Yes folks!!! That's billion with a capital B!!!



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lavisbre
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19:31:33 Mar 04 2010
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Just love all of grahams Hancock theories and finds.
Finger prints of the gods was ground breaking for me and will be for you a were good read.
I as most know that history was wrote and controlled by the winners and people who wish to control with religion and politics (not just conspiracy paranoid). lol
When one realize we were not like the stone age men as shown in Raquel Welch 1000 years BC lol you might get to understand there is more to this ancient world and stories, after all no smoke with out fire.
For all who doubt man was able to gather in huge settlements before and during the ice age, who think the schools taught them the truth about our past then you might want to read this little article.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/233844/page/1

News week reported on the latest finds of an ice age religion and ceremonial site, so big there calling it the “Rome of the ice age” ….. so much for what we thought so far on man gathering then developing religion… looks like religion made us gather. Once again grahams theories are becoming a reality day by day.
“the German-born archeologist waves a hand over his discovery here, a revolution in the story of human origins. Schmidt has uncovered a vast and beautiful temple complex, a structure so ancient that it may be the very first thing human beings ever built. The site isn't just old, it redefines old: the temple was built 11,500 years ago—a staggering 7,000 years before the Great Pyramid, and more than 6,000 years before Stonehenge first took shape. The ruins are so early that they predate villages, pottery, domesticated animals, and even agriculture—the first embers of civilization. In fact, Schmidt thinks the temple itself, built after the end of the last Ice Age by hunter-gatherers, became that ember—the spark that launched mankind toward farming, urban life, and all that followed.”

Cant wait to see how this develops.



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raziel
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19:44:36 Mar 04 2010
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All i have to say is clik on this link and read!!


BeforeUs.com



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lavisbre
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20:32:59 Mar 04 2010
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Sorry Razel this link you posted looks like an advertising site selling myths and your email?

Was that the point to the link?



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raziel
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22:50:01 Mar 04 2010
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Actually that link is sort of advertising Jonathan Gray's book and discoveries.

Have you ever seen the documentaries on ancient technology? And how they moved medalithic structures and monuments?
And they had to have some technology greater than we do because its even difficult for modern man to move some of their great statues and monuments.

I believe that civilizations were very advanced and their knowledge has been lost in antiquity, these ancient civilizations had great technology, sometimes better than what we have now.
Either these great civilizations such as the Egyptians, Sumerians, Incas, and even the Mayas, were great advanced civilizations that just disappeared with no trace left behind for us to know what happened to them.

The world and great civilizations were either destroyed over and over again, or the disappeared and there are many theories as to what happened to them.

I also think ancient man was visited by Extra-Terrestial life that gave them great technology, or possibly they took these great societies to other worlds or they built machines and some how disappeared, possibly another dimension.

I dont mean to sound crazy, but there is some evidence to support some of these theories.
I would suggest going to YouTube, And type in the "History Channel Ancient Aliens"
People may think its a little crazy but once you watch it, it all makes sense...

Not saying I completely believe in this, but the theories presented make more sense than any other hypothesis i have ever read...

Ill link the first part

Histroy Ancient Aliens



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lavisbre
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01:23:04 Mar 05 2010
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Nice post Raziel and I also have seen some of the programs you speak off.
Im also a believer due to personal experience in UFO and understand life can live in many types of environments and thus it would beside being arrogant to think that there is not life out there, it would be a insulting to my intelligence as well.
History does repeat and as one great civilization falls in moves the barbarians and the destruction or the religious vandals and plagiarist.
I concur there seems to be a vast knowledge of old that were still having issues trying to understand.
Crystal skulls spring to mind and so forth.
Unfortunately having this theory does leave us open to ridicule from those who demand scientific proof or silence. Lol

Who knows maybe one day they will find a crashed of old or some technology not of this world.
I also think Mesopotamia stories from old that talk of floods and great battles even DNA splicing if you will from the “Watchers” or angels if you will who found the maidens fair and ripped the dying young hybrids from there belies before the babies died .. Gilgamesh and more… very interesting stuff indeed.



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lavisbre
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01:59:07 Mar 05 2010
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Nice link that second one Raziel, iv just watched the first part and remember reading that as a kid in my parents bedroom. Finger prints of the gods takes away from a lot of what this book said like the maps of the arctic Piri Reis map and where they concluded yes it was not covered in ice at the time and no balloon would go that high and be able to see and map at the height needed and oxygen so .. it must be a UFO. Graham Hancocks finger prints of the gods says we did have precise time clocks so we could to longitude and latitude and no need to fly in a UFO. He has managed to bring a lot of ground to his work, just like Antikythera mechanism is a very old computer … who knows?



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raziel
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12:56:00 Mar 05 2010
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Thank you,

Thats just the tip of the iceberg though.

There is so much evidence to support the possibility of interferrence of other civilization bringing technology to these civiliation by other ET life.
Its there
Its the biggest cover up of the millenium.
And yes I read "Chariots Of The Gods" when I was a teen and recently I have read a few more books by Jonathan Gray, and Erich Von Daniken, and its all true.
People look at you like your crazy when you say things about alien interferrence in the history of man.
And its the government of the worlds that spread this notion that people thinking of ET's visiting us as being crazy, and cover it up
But its all TRUE!!
Im a firm believer, and i think in my lifetime, these aliens will visit us on a massive scale and reveal to everyone that we are not alone.
And as Von Daniken says...
"You will be in for the Shock of the Gods!"



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catseye
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14:48:26 Mar 05 2010
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when jason and the argonaughts went through the pillars of hercules it was still a torrent as the atlnatic was still puring through the gap into the mediterranian valley after an earthquake in the late plioscene.so the epic early pre doric bronze age greek legends would be actually set during the ice age.the pleistiscene era.herculese himself dressed in skins and used a club.he was a stone age warrior.we really dont know for sure what society was like then.modern historians like to place human development in easy linneat stages,stone age bronze age etr.but it was not that simple or can really be delinated like that.while people in britian where digging a very well orginised flint mine people in bagdad where expenting in battery elecronics.the ancient egyptian knew how to make lightbulbs.the later ancient greeks built a working solar powered lazer.



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Xzavier
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19:28:47 Mar 05 2010
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Good lord my head hurts. Does anyone here even know what a polar shift is?

A polar shift is where the Earths magnetic field switches, the field NOT the actual planet. Polar shifts are well proven and have never been shown to be the cause of massive and great cataclysms large enough to sink continents.

Technology is directly coupled with population. The more people you have the more ideas, the more ideas the more techno gadgets. (it also helps to not be in a civilisation controlled by absolute monarchies and the like...as nearly all civilisations were pre modern times)

It took humans, starting with the first documented *concept* of an atom 2,600 years to develop the atomic bomb and billions of dollars and thousands of scientists over a century from the theorization of atomic structure to the bombs creation.

So with that, human mDNA goes back (directly) 140,000 years with coalescence with males 60-90,000 years. So basically from "Adam and Eve" we have 140,000 years. It took humans up to around 1830 to hit the billion mark. Using some math we can figure population (globally) pre-50BC at less than 100 million. To add to that during these so called "lost civilisation" times we run into problems. DNA evidence shows that 70,000 years ago total human population was around 15,000 a very dangerous bottleneck. In 2000 a paper on biology and evolution said that it was possible for the number of humans (us) in sub-Saharan Africa to have dropped as low as 2,000 for as long as 100,000 years. Using that we can say that for 100,000 years global population may never have moved above 1/2 million persons (or smaller than the population of Nashville, TN).

I say all that to say, the chances of vast civilisations, nuclear wars etc before 3000BC are insanely remote. Ice ages may clear away human buildings but it doesn't erase DNA evidence.

I'm not saying it's 100% impossible but you might want to think about it.

As for the "pyramids" off the coast of Japan. I've seen them, I've studied them, they look amazing but from a scientific point of view they are almost certainly nothing more than really cool normal geologic features.

I can't explain everything that looks "interesting" but I can give levels of possibility. We have to be very careful to not let our desires or imaginations take the place of OBJECTIVE science and always keep the thought that you could be wrong close to heart, especially if your "proof" is thinner than cheese cloth.



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Severus
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01:16:03 Mar 06 2010
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Speaking of Erich von Daniken's book "Chariots of the Gods" he was on a History channel program discussing the very same Alien Astronaut theory about different sites around the world.

Puma Punku is the site that stood out in my mind as the hardest of the ancient mysteries to dismiss as it seem that ancient man just could not have accomplished such a feet.

For those that did not see it -




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raziel
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02:17:43 Mar 06 2010
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You are deffinately right Severus, these wonders are just unimagineable as to how they did this with out advanced technology.

Sometimes I think science is wrong, and that there is a greater knowledge of science out there that are not prevalent to our world, or its so advanced that we cant even comprehend such things.
Thats why its has to be Extra-terrestrial knowledge.

Its out there but has been lost over the years, like for example grave robbers have taken many pieces of history and sold them on the black market, and private collectors over the years have proof of some of this knowledge, where else would they be?

Someday they will return.



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Severus
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You could very well be correcton that one... I unfortunately srtuggle with both sides.
On the one hand you have evolutionists proponents with some evidence of man's existence from point C to point D but they have no A to B link in the history of food chain.
So what do you do about this... Well we will make up something called the "missing link" and call that science. We then start to teach it as fact to our children when that same science can also tell you that when it comes to DNA strands you are genetically closer to a grain of rice than you are to a chimpanzee.

On the other hand you have some folks that point out the obvious fact that several civilizations which were only suppose to be one step out of the stone age are building things that are impossible to duplicate today.
The Egyptians had medical knowledge of in bombing and mummification, to alchemy and hermetics. People look at the pyramids in awe but have you been to the Egyptian museum in Cairo??
I have, and as you stair at the artifacts you tend to find yourself asking the question "how exactly does one hollow out and make a bowl from a block of solid diorite??
So that is clear evidence of alien help right...
Wait... what?? No it's not.

There in lies the problem... is it Ancient Astronauts, Darwin?? There really is no solid foundation for either theory to be take at face value as fact.
Just ideas that seem to fit "some" of the facts but I'm sorry with the size of the parts it's not definitive enough for me to subscribe to either of these view points. Plus Anyone that looks beyond the veil to the science of the theories will find material that should have dismissed them both long ago.
What I do know is that the current model for what a modern man is believed to be is something that the world has seen before.

The truth of our ancestry is screaming at us to be understood. Question is there anyone who is ready and willing to listen too it??



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raziel
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14:01:55 Mar 06 2010
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Good point, How does archaelogy explain a civilization such as Sumerians and then Egyptians come straight out of the stone age and build megalithic structures with no pre-knowledge of how to do it?

They say the Sumerians are the oldest or one of the oldest civilizations in the world, how can the first known civilization just get this kind of knowledge? they dont, they were given this by a race of Gods called the "Annunaki" which are "from the sky" to me this mean an extra-terrestrial race. And it seems this civilization of people where given knowledge to advance their society.

Even today Archaeologist cant even draw up a conclusion of how the pyramids of giza, the mayan pyramids, and many other places around the globe people built these giant monuments. We cant even do it today with the precision of how they did it.

Thing that gets me, is over the years up until modern times is that people went into these great tombs of say the egyptians and the mayas and the bodies and mummies that the tomb was built for have been removed.Black market archaeology is a big thing and very profitable.

Now i believe that someone around the world has to have these great pharoahs and kings in their private collections and noone in the world knows where they are. I think these collectors are either afraid to reveal they have these lost articles of history, or they have been able to interpret what the truth is that is hidden away by these lost civilizations.

Such as the many cover-ups that the government throws out there like the UFO phenomenon.
They say its silly and most people are crazy to have seen such things.
I have never seen a UFO or flying saucer, But its just crazy to think we are the only intelligent life out there in this vast universe that we are now able to see.
the "Drake Equation" is a mathematical equation to just predict how many possible communicating civilizations that are in our galaxy, i think for our galaxy the number is about 2000 intelligent Extra-Terrestrial races or planets just in the Milky Way Galaxy, and 10,000 in the universe!! There are about 200 Billion stars just in our galaxy, and many of these have to have planets circuling around them, I think in the past few years we have been able to spot around 200 alien planets, and a couple of them may be in the "habitable zone" in their orbits around these stars. SO just think of the many stars in our galaxy that we are unable to see yet? Im not sure if my numbers are correct but they are close.
I am a firm believer that we are now being visited by ET's and that we have been since the dawn of time. Its the only explanation.
I think very soon and since we are soon to be on the precipise of the down fall of our civilization, examples of running out of fossil fuels and nuclear weapons, we may just destroy ourselves. I think that soon another ET civilization is gonna make global contact with modern man, and it will no longer be a secret.

This is a good thread, and is great how the topic of "pre-ice age" has all this great information!! I personally study such things and i really could talk about this al day long if anyone wishes to go into this topic more..

Great thread!!



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eternalknight
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18:42:56 Mar 06 2010
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there has to be more to the story of atlantis than what plato wrote i myself believe it still exist like the legeng of king arthur and the island of avalon



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Xzavier
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20:13:55 Mar 06 2010
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I don't believe in alien intervention at all. Yes I think they exist but I don't think they came down here to help some cave folk build a giant triangular mountain..to bury the leader of the cave folk.

People misunderstand something when scientists, archeologies and/or researchers say we don't understand exactly how something was done. We have 2-3 logical theories about the pyramids with one of those theories taking top spot, that most archaeologists agree with. The problem isn't that we don't know *how* is was made so much as we aren't sure of the logistics.

Most folks think that if something looks complicated then it couldn't have been done by ancient peoples, especially when all they had were basic tools. That's a huge misconception. What makes up complicated structures? Smaller, less complicated parts. The human body is the most complex thing known in the universe and yet fundamentally it's no different than anything else.

A study was done on crop circles to determine of humans could create the seemingly complex designs of the more extreme circles in only one night using basic tools. They did it, with time to spare.

In order to build something massive like the pyramids all you need is basic math. It might take a while to work it out but you can do it. Geometry is a beautiful thing and with it you can take a pile of rocks and turn it into something amazing. And before you say "well they didn't have advanced mathematics" you don't need it. You can basic math to figure out pretty much any problem like this it just takes longer.

Absence of evidence (like a blueprint) is not evidence of absence.

And if you like logic lets take a look at Occam's razor basically, the simplest answer tends to be the correct one. What's more simple, a massive empire with lots of money, time, people, supplies and the proper math built a complex but non functional structure (meaning there aren't any elevators and it doesn't transport you to Alpha Centauri) or an alien race that went around the laws of physics to travel light years to come here and work with a primitive people, used highly advanced technology to build ...again a pile of cut stone?

We don't know everything about ancient structures, why they did things, exactly how etc but we don't have to jump off into Star Trek for an explanation either.



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Severus
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02:13:35 Mar 07 2010
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lol -
Xzavier, I miss our conversations.
Excellent post my friend but once again I am in possession of the history. The facts of The Great Pyramid Of Giza / Khufu's Pyramid Statistics are enough to make my point so lets do the math shall we.

A total of over 2,300,000 blocks of limestone,sandstone, and granite were used in its construction, with the average block weighing 2.5 tons and none weighing less than 2 tons.

Construction date (Estimated): 2589 B.C.
Construction time (Via Written text): 20 years.
Total weight (Estimated): 6.5 million tons. or 14 billion lbs.


Fact:
In order for the Pyramid to have been built in the time frame of 20 years the following would have to be true -

2,300,000 blocks - divided by – 20 years = 115,000 blocks per year

115,000 blocks - divided by – 12 months = 9,583 blocks per month

9,583 blocks - divided by – 30 days = 319 blocks per day

319 blocks - divided by – 24 hrs. = 13 blocks per hour

13 blocks - divided by – 60 mins. = 1 block every 4.6 seconds


Ok so...
1.)
In order for the great pyramid to have been built in the 20 years one of those massive 2 ton block would have to have been placed into position every four and a half seconds for 20 year straight. That is without the use of block and tackle, the winch, nothing modern - just raw man power.

2.)
The Egyptians of the fourth dynasty where not a formidable military nation so the Idea that they would have had enough slave to complete such a project is well beyond preposterous.

3.)
The only trees in Ancient Egypt were date palms, as a food source it is unlikely that they would have been cut down to role blocks on. Not to mention that it is almost impossible to role anything on sand or cobblestone roads. Plus the tremendous weight of the stones would have crushed the trees to pulp in a very short distance.

4.) the rampers theory states that a ramp was built to slide the blocks up it and into position. it would have taken almost as much effort to build the dam ramp as it did to build the Pyramid, then you would of had a billion or so pounds of construction debris to remove afterwards.

This is the main stream ideology which Science is teaching in our school today as fact when in truth they are not even a good theories.




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Xzavier
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04:52:18 Mar 07 2010
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There are 138 known pyramids in Egypt as of 2008, most are much smaller than the "Great Pyramid". So you're telling me aliens worked with Egyptians for a period of over 800 years to build these things? Or just on the one?

Like I said the logistics of the Great Pyramid is little understood but to say there must have been outside intervention just doesn't work. Egypt was a world influence for the bulk of it's ancient history. Just because there may have been a lack of timbers there doesn't mean they couldn't have gotten them from other places. Hell tons of their gold came from other nations. Also Egypt wasn't always a desert and other types of trees may very well have grown at some point.

The ramp theory is one of the major theories but it's only major in that it takes up a larger portion of the "acceptance" than other theories. However, it is not the most widely accepted theory.

The entire pyramid is also NOT made up of massive multi-ton stones. If you take it's mass of 5.6 million tonnes it would take 800 tonnes of stone moved a day to build it in 20yrs. Say it takes 5 men to move 1 tonne, that's 4,000 men working on it to move the stones (8hr shifts, 1300 per shift, 24/7). With everything else you could do it (including support staff) with less than 40,000 people. Workers do not have to be slaves, nor do they have to be regular paid laborers.
Now that doesn't solve everything but again, just because it isn't a perfect explanation doesn't mean freakin ET came down.

How did the aliens get here? Why is there no evidence of them at the site? Why did they build them?

Your theory has far more holes in it than scientific explanations about the pyramids so please provide a bit of evidence.



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BillytheJust
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04:55:22 Mar 07 2010
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Never under-estimate very determine people set on one goal with many, many, many hands.

Atlantis has less archaeological evidence than localities. Pick a spot where it isn't!

Earth is far more amazing than you realize. We don't need aliens to make it better or worst.

People are stupid. Researchers are not the exception.

The planet's history is not interested in your numbers or counting. It doesn't use the 'new math.'

There was a description of a nuclear blast, and its affects, in ancient Hindu text. The area of north India. Also tells of 'flying air ships.' That was over four thousand years ago.

The poles are shifting now. A little at a time and in small areas at a time. No continent is sinking other than the ice-caps melting. Move in-land.




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Severus
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06:33:26 Mar 07 2010
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Again as I stated in earlier posts, I don't subscribe to either cavemen or aliens building anything. What I am saying is that there is emerging evidence to support the ideology that our history, the history of man is far older and was much more advanced than the current models allot for. Very Ridged Models which are give as fact when basic common sense rules them out.

P.S.
My friend Listen to yourself...
A rotating workforce of 40,000 - working night and day for 20 years. Do you have any Idea how many time that work force would need to be changed out in that time period?? We won't even get into the housing or feeding of a labor project of that size. Which would have been a workforce in of it's self.

Importing Trees to role 2,300,000 blocks??
We would be talking about a number close to a 100 million trees!! That would require more shipping ability that Egypt have ever possessed in there entire history.
Go ahead and ask a geologist if you could have even have found a forest large enough to have supplied that many trees for at least a few thousand miles in any given direction.
And there is your Anomaly, The Determination of mankind as great as it is couldn't have keep up with the logistics necessary to have built the thing.



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Xzavier
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06:55:05 Mar 07 2010
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So if it was impossible for them to have built them...how'd they get there?

I fully agree that human civilisation goes back farther than we currently recognize and so does their technology. Sadly, there isn't evidence of advanced technology being used to build the pyramids.

40,000 workers, 20 years... A good worker lasts what 5, 10 years? So you'd have to switch them out 2-4 times or 80-160,000 individuals over 20 years. Even at the highest end thats only 8,000 new workers per year. Sounds doable to me. The use of slaves, paid laborers and soldiers all could have been used. That mix of workers was used to build the Great Wall, most of Rome, even some of the massive projects in modern times. During the first dynasties the population was well over a million (not including possible slaves) and during the heaviest periods of pyramid construction the population was 2.5-5 million.

Where do you get 100 million trees? You do know 10 logs or so for one stone...those logs can be reused.

If you're going to ask questions and attempt to over turn evidence at least give some plausible solution.



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lavisbre
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16:36:18 Mar 07 2010
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Well I guess were not going to be able to sort out the question, based on facts we have and limited by what we believe they could do then, backed by an inadequate science or a conspiracy theory.
There are plenty of reports of great people or visitors who use staffs of power to lift heavy blocks and so forth. It might be very possible we are the alien hybrids with issues that has made us destroy and become greedy and a very clear narcissism. The watchers as they were know as in the Ethiopian bible screams of genetics engineering (im using this as western world has compiled and lost all that undermines it’s “good message”. We may well be a test lab gone wrong and now look at what were doing to the world and each other, hardly natural and not in tune with nature like every thing else on this rock speeding along in space … even a message of peace now a days involves corrupt organizations and rape of natural resources to pay for said help, thus enslaving that poor country just as we are slaved eventually with credit cards and governments and laws. Not saying work out side the law ether most are in place for very good reasons.. true freedom would be crazy with pedophiles and murder being the worst to be given freedom to. So back to the post you aren’t going to work out this pyramid issue based on today’s work ethnics or ignore the fact Egypt was very fertile and it is now believed by some to be almost jungle like due to water damage found on the sphinx. I guess till we collect all data this makes for a great talk but not won over by scientific calculations that don’t even take into considerations staffs of power that are wrote about and im sorry no smoke with out fire, all you need to do is read un tampered with documents and the world was a very different place with flying people and craft and so forth.



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Xzavier
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20:44:07 Mar 07 2010
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This isn't really aimed at anyone just a general thought.

I really don't like it when science is the thing attacked for being "lacking" as though just because it hasn't answered EVERYTHING means that it's inadequate or wrong. True science has been around for less than 300 years and already we think that if someone with a PhD can't explain the mysteries of a universe 150 billion light years across that we should ignore it and move on to something "beyond" science.

I'm sorry but there's nothing beyond science, it's just a matter of time and a matter of public support. As you may know I'm a very proud Christian and I use science to help explain things and even God isn't beyond science, from my view he's the cause of it. The theories proposed by scientists may be flawed or turn out wrong but the scientific method is not flawed, it isn't wrong and using it we can figure out everything. Again it may just take some time.

Now, moving away from that. I'm curious to see why some seem to be so quick to dismiss science as something lacking and yet will point to paintings thousands of years old as "evidence" of anything beyond shear story telling or 'supernatural'. In todays world over 100,000 books a year are published, most of them fiction others are propaganda (why this king is great etc). Well back then their stories were either simply spoken or painted/written on walls. You don't think they had the same ideas we do about making one side look great and another bad, or telling some mystical tale to inspire loyalty?

I would love it if things like alien visitations, human-alien hybrids, and so on were real. I mean stuff like that just sets the mind on fire and you could go on for hours theorizing, imagining and so on. Sadly the only 'evidence' is far from compelling. I think a lot of the reason things "look" like aliens or spaceships are because a) in our society we can go to other planets, we have spaceships etc and b) because we're looking for it.

I've seen a lot of things I really can't explain using the common understanding of history (the science didn't fail but our interpretation may have) but little of it tells me we had visitors. More advanced technology perhaps than we think possible but only 2 or 3 things really make me sit back and consider the possibility.

However, when it comes to who built the pyramids and other buildings, there's nothing that proves without a doubt we didn't or couldn't have done it by ourselves.



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Severus
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Well I for one like to think, and when someone tells me something I don't often take it at face value.

Quote:

" However, when it comes to who built the pyramids and other buildings, there's nothing that proves without a doubt we didn't or couldn't have done it by ourselves."

That is my point... There is no solid evidence to support that they did build it either. So why do we just asume that we did do it?? The Egyptians left us some 6,000 years of written and pictorial history, covering every aspect of the culture... From basket weaving to dinner etiquette. Yet the single greatest under taking in their history and there is not one drawing anywhere, not one inventory count, not one single tally sheet to tell of it's construction.

.... WHY??



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Xzavier
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23:50:44 Mar 07 2010
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There's no blueprint of the Parthenon either but no one seriously suggests the Greeks didn't build it.

A lack of design materials still isn't much proof they didn't build it. When we go to figure out how/when/by whom etc things are done we don't just look at one aspect and make a determination. There is firm evidence of the time period, who's pyramid it was and so on.

We have no proof aliens built anything on earth but we have lots of proof humans built things on this planet. The logical step to make is that humans built the Great Pyramid (remembering that there are also another 137 known pyramids built over an 800+ year period). It makes no sense what so ever to say that it's equally just at plausible for alien builders as humans.

For the Great Pyramid there are holes in the evidence, not a total lack of it. For non-human builders or advanced technology there's almost zero actual evidence compared to the "pro-ancient human" evidence.



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lavisbre
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Hi Xzavier

Most advances in science come when a person for one reason or another is forced to change fields.
- Peter Borden

Do you understand that comment and why?

I know science has done a great job and no one shouldn’t ignore it .. too much. Lol
You said there is nothing beyond science???? Except your god who you think made it but not beyond it… well that is flawed on so many levels lol however we will not drag this down a path of religion please.

I like the quantum mechanics angle to try to put forth my point as religion is just a belief and no fact which scientifically would not hold water in a scientific lab.
Science as you know cant on paper make a bee fly, this little kinder garden fact is one of many. The reason is a flaw in science( I wont go on) so quantum mechanics that is used in conjunction with science and a negative square root will make a bee fly.
So please don’t think science is the bee all( pun intended lol) answer, there is more beyond science.
Dr Alan Wolf has some very interesting papers on how magical practitioners seem to of had the theories right in the first place.. fancy that magic being beyond science.
After all science doesn’t know if it’s a wave or a particle so it is purely down to the person observing.

As for who built the pyramids … who knows but one cant reject alien intervention when it is clearly beyond our scope of understanding and agreement right now. Sure we have space ships now and I don’t think that is why we think aliens have something to do with our past, but you obviously haven’t read other religions documents that speak of flying craft thousands of years ago before say Christianity even or you would add that into your statement. If it’s any help a lot of Christians believe aliens are really angels or the origins for them…..
Just coz some scientist didn’t get it doesn’t mean there right, they haven’t taken into consideration everything which is bad science at best. See as I started with the quote when they change the field there brilliant minds actually start to think outside the bun and we advance.
Just like Sherlock homes ones you have eliminated all the possibilities what your left with is elementary dear xzavier lol

I have to say it is a shame some religions vandalized Egypt and made it this hard to find truths…



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Xzavier
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No my statement isn't flawed at all. Science isn't a "thing" it's the method we use to describe things. Should God exist, "it" can be described. Science has the concept of infinite, multi dimensions, multiverses, things being created out of nothing, universes existing before and beyond time etc. God can be described by science (he can't be described today but someday) and that means God isn't beyond science.

Also I am not debating if aliens exist, even the Pope said that a belief in aliens does not negate belief in God or the Bible.

Quantum mechanics IS science so I'm not exactly following your analogy.

The Great Pyramid (can we PLEASE say that, the 137 other pyramids aren't all without understanding) is not without understanding, science does not lack evidence nor ideas. The only thing that science hasn't provided is the complete story of the Great Pyramid. Just because something isn't complete doesn't mean there must have been an unearthly component.

You don't believe in God or Christianity and yet you'll point to mentions of flying crafts in Jewish/Christian texts as evidence? I don't think you're allowed to do that lol.

Just because there are texts of flying crafts doesn't mean they're aliens. They could meteors, stories, total fabrications, meteorological phenomenon, spiritual beings etc. And yes some might have in fact been aliens. But even if aliens have visited Earth that doesn't mean they built anything. If you're such an open minded person will you at least acknowledge that all of those *stories* could be just that, stories, with no reality to them?

Why is it people will believe what someone said 3,000 years ago over what people are saying now? (especially over folks with a bloody education) I know why but that's for a whole other topic.

Give me something besides paintings of strange things that only look like aliens to some to provide evidence of alien intervention on Earth. Until then, I'm through with this particular line of discussion because it isn't going anywhere.



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xTigressx
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04:31:29 Mar 08 2010
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I think it is plausable that some cultures were highly advanced but not to the degree of what we are today. Look throughout history there has always been one or two powerfull nations that conquered all. Yet these always fell at some point, for example the Roman empire. Atlantis was the same a powerful nation that ended up falling.

The biggest reason powerful nations always fall are for two reasons, greed and arrogance. There will always be someone out there that will better you at some point.

I dont think it was a explosion that sank Atlantis it was just someone got the better of them.



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lavisbre
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LOL too funny Xzavier

Im not going to go on about god as this post will get shut down or used to get done in the past. Lol
There is a reason scientist mainly don’t believe in god and im sure you understand why. Im a little worried on a side note about the Geno DNA project to map our DNA and already controversy about god DNA and GAY DNA and so forth, I wondered about this till I noted on several TV programs and DVD’s the guy in charge is a strong Christian and his views are un shakable .. quite the oxymoron .. mind you, you also believe the same yet use science …..

If quantum mechanics was science it would be called science mechanics not quantum, I find this a simple mistake most make at first.

Can we navigate from religion please, I don’t care what the pope thinks nor does god

As for ancient documents I will take them at face value and not edited versions, after all certain organizations went burning lots to hide something lol
Enoch bible sure does answer a lot, I can only assume you think I don’t read such documents as you wouldn’t read any thing outside of recommended reading for yourself lol

Yes just because they talk of flying craft and so forth sure doesn’t mean its aliens it also doesn’t mean it’s meteors…. I don’t get the point

Why people believe what they want too… well we have been lied to we have had corrupt religions and governments and so forth.. why should we believe propaganda when dealing with ancient world thing we need to look at what they said then and make a judgment call.



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Xzavier
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No I don't understand why "most" scientists (which isn't true at any rate) don't believe in at least some form of higher power i.e god. I am a scientist and I believe in God.

Babe (I call everyone that),
Science: (from the Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge") is, in its broadest sense, any systematic knowledge-base or prescriptive practice that is capable of resulting in a correct prediction, or reliably-predictable type of outcome.

Quantum: is the minimum unit of any physical entity involved in an interaction.
Mechanics: is the branch of physics concerned with the behaviour of physical bodies when subjected to forces or displacements, and the subsequent effect of the bodies on their environment.

Quantum Mechanics: is a set of scientific principles describing the known behavior of energy and matter that predominate at the atomic and subatomic scales.

Quantum mechanics is a field of science. Shouldn't be hard to determine that.

"As for ancient documents I will take them at face value and not edited versions, after all certain organizations went burning lots to hide something lol"

You honestly think the ancients were above burning documents? They were the ones who invented it! The bad people didn't just pop up because of those evil Christians or evil US government. If you think that then this is very much pointless.
Very few ancient documents exist in their entirety, not because of bad people destroying them but because of the ravages of time. And those that do exist were not immune to alteration by the very people who wrote them.

Ever heard of the Battle of Kadesh, 1274BC? Thats a prime example of one side greatly altering the "facts" (this time it was Egypt) to fit in with their propaganda.

"I can only assume you think I don’t read such documents as you wouldn't’t read any thing outside of recommended reading for yourself"

That is beyond offensive and incredibly ignorant. I don't assume anything other than what you provide ample evidence for. I have a faith, that faith does not dictate what I'm allowed to study, on the contrary it encourages research. If you were so enlightened you'd understand the difference between faith and the "church".

"Yes just because they talk of flying craft and so forth sure doesn’t mean its aliens it also doesn’t mean it’s meteors…. I don’t get the point"

The point is many seem to think that it only means aliens and not meteors. I thought that was fairly clear.



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Severus
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Ok You know I respect your opinion but your not seeing the real picture here!!

You would need to have a work force to quarry the stone, then a workforce to role it on to a ship which barges the stones up the Nile. Then a third work crew with more trees to off load and role these 2 ton stones up hill on a cobblestone and sand walk ways to the Giza plateau construction site. Then your forth work crew would need to wiggle these stones close to a second stone which they would then lift onto that block and then the next block and then the next... rinse and repeat 2,300,000 times.

Now I will double your 5 guys to ten men pure block... just to be kind. lol
I'm not going to ask for your whole 8,000 man work force per year... just find me any ten guys any where on earth that are going to be able to lift and stack 2 ton ford pick up trucks repeatedly for 8 hours a day and then do it all again tomorrow and the next day - for what did you say... 5 years?? 10 years straight??
At some point reality has to be factored into the math.

For the record I'm not saying they were constructed buy aliens - the Gods or anyone else other than man.
What I am saying is that they could not have been constructed with the tools and knowledge available to the Egyptians of the Fourth Dynasty. There has to have been another factor involved in there construction. Science's current models for our history just don't stack up... as lavisbre stated no pun intended.

Now it is well documented that just over 100 years ago science refused to believe in the existence of dinosaurs because it didn't work with what religion said was history, even though they had the fossils staring at them in the face. Just as they now say today what they believe is thee "what and how" man was able built these object, they ( the main stream scientific community ) needs to be willing to examine the current evidence, look at the facts, and admit to the possibility that an ancient advanced culture may have indeed existed. Regardless of what the effects maybe on our current views and belief system.



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xTigressx
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06:12:15 Mar 08 2010
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The problem with science is that it has to be proven first. Not that this is a bad fact but you need to have an open mind and not just see whats in front of you.

The thing about pass cultures is their drawings. We tend to denie things because we havent seen them but yet we all have seen the drawings from pass cultures. Admittedly the flying object could be put down to meteors. And I do believe we can now go back via computers and see pass skys perhaps we can find out what was in the skies back then.



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Xzavier
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06:26:27 Mar 08 2010
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Oh no I see the picture. I've just been focusing on each specific topic you've brought up.

Look it really isn't that hard to move 2 tons with 10 men, it's been done lots of times. Remember to move all the wight of the Great Pyramid over 20 years you'd need to move 800 tonnes a day. Thats 400 2 ton blocks per day or about 17 blocks an hour, spread out over the area of the thing that still looks very possible. I haven't done the math but it looks like 1 man may only have worked on 3 stones a day.

Now many blocks weighed far less than 2 tons and many weighed well over which means the 2.5mill count isn't accurate. It was within their technology to build stone saws to cut the smaller ones, they could use fire/water to break up massive chunks and then cut them down to size and so on. Plus there could have been materials brought up from other nations. All of this saves time and labor.

If we also think that pyramids were being built over an 800+ year period you could venture a guess that there were lots of stuff left over from each previous build that could be used in a new one. Of course things weren't "one size fits all" but every little thing surely was not unique. There's even evidence that some pyramids had been cannibalized for their materials for other projects. Now that might not have been the case with building a pyramid but it is a possibility.

I'm a physicist, my work deals with things far removed from ancient Egypt so please don't expect me to solve this mystery here lol. But I do hope to at least show that it isn't so far from the realm of possibility that they could have done this given more generally accepted supplies etc. I may not be able to convince you individually but is it not at least possible that the task wasn't so enormous as you seem to think, give everything I've said?

When you talk about these tools "all" archaeologists say they only had, what tools are you talking about? Now take those and add the things that were possible, like stone saws etc. It's well known the ancient Greeks used basic robotics and had coin operated equipment. We may not have found the Egyptians "gum ball machine" and they almost certainly had tools we haven't discovered or have only bits of but to think they had anything along the lines of 1700+ tech is pretty far fetched. And I used that date because most technology before then was pretty much fundamentally the same for a very, very long time back.

I'm not talking about what some scientists said 100 years ago, I'm talking about what they say now. Just because they got something wrong then doesn't mean it's wrong now. No we don't have the full picture but it is a lot more complete than it ever has been (except of course when the thing was actually being built).



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xTigressx
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06:31:00 Mar 08 2010
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I am sure that in the days when they build the pyramids that the tools they used then were state of the art as with today. When you put your mind to building something or in fact to do anything, very little will stop you from doing it.



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Lethargy
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The funny thing is our technology today cannot meet the same fet that was made back then, go figure. Advancing technology isnt always the best thing. The old saying put your trust into tried and tested.



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Artume
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An article the may be worth the read to any and all interested in researched material of professional and scientific facts:

In recent years, genetic research has produced unexpected results that have opened the doors to many historical mysteries. The surprising outcomes have also provoked unintended controversy. The reasons that these DNA investigations have sparked intense debates in the fields of anthropology, history and even cultural evolution will become clear as our story unfolds.

The genetic probes began innocently enough with geneticists wanting to see what secrets human genes might reveal about our complex, mysterious and often disputed history. Anthropologists and historians had long thought that the America's had been populated by Asians crossing a land bridge that connected Asia and North America during the last Ice Age. This was referred to as the 'Bering Strait Crossing' theory and was believed to have occurred about 12,000 years ago.

Genetic analysis on Native American DNA samples began in the 1980s. However, the research effort greatly accelerated in the 1990s due to rapid technological progress in the field. In fact, the early results confirmed the generally accepted theory showing a clear link between Native Americans and DNA samples collected from native peoples in Siberian-Asia. Nevertheless, as the studies both deepened and broadened to include Asians across the continent, the increasing data revealed that the migration pattern had been more complex than anthropologist's had envisioned.

The early results showed that Native American tribes were comprised of four distinct mtDNA haplogroups, A, B, C, and D. The haplogroup designations represent four different (maternal) lineages. These four lineages are found throughout North, Central and South America. However, only three of them A, C, and D were discovered in the Siberian-Asian populations. The B haplogroup was traced to aboriginal population groups in Southeast Asia, China, Japan, Melanesia, and Polynesia.

Before proceeding we should briefly clarify what mtDNA is. There are two types of genetic material used for analysis, cellular and mtDNA, the latter is found in human mitochondia outside the nucleus of cells and is only transferred down generations through females, hence mtDNA stands for maternal DNA. This type is simpler than the cellular DNA and it evolves faster,so it is used to distinguish human groups that evolved in separate geographic areas.

In historical terms, what the genetic evidence obtained from mtDNA samples translated into was a much more diverse and complex migration pattern that included people arriving to the America's in boats. Thor Heyerdahl had hypothesized that this was the case by showing that it was possible during his Kon Tiki expeditions across the Pacific Ocean to Peru.

While orthodox anthropologists embraced the results of the earliest DNA findings, the later results caused consternation and controversy. They not only showed that the Americas were settled by many different racial groups coming from many different parts of Asia, the genetic findings also demonstrated that the migration events took place much earlier than previously thought.



The rest of the article may be found: here

As well:

Evidence For Its' Existence

"This is probably the greatest discovery in World history", was stated by Maxine Asher, the co-director of a scientific expedition that found Atlantis at the bottom of the ocean, reported United Press International and major newspapers in the United States during the summer of 1973. UPI continued that "Maxine Asher said that scuba divers found data to prove the existence of the super-civilization which legend says sank beneath the sea thousands of years ago. The divers had found evidence of roads and large columns, some with concentric spiral motifs, in the exact place described by the Greek philosopher Plato".

"The group of some 70 scientists, teachers and adventurers was endorsed by Pepperdine University in Los Angeles, California."

The document "History of the Golden Ages" reveals over 30 ruins including pyramids, domes, paved roads, rectangular buildings, columns, canals and artifacts that have been found on the ocean bottoms from the Bahamas to the nearby coasts of Europe and Africa, referencing the vast size of the lost continent.

Dozens of historians and famous writers wrote about the Atlantis they believed existed, how the Mayans and Aztecs had told their conquerors that they came from Atlantis and Mu, about ancient tablets photographed in Peru showing those two lost continents, Atlantis and Lemuria, and ancient maps clearly showing Atlantis.

Just some of the ruins so far found include:

- A pyramid explored by Dr Ray Brown on the sea floor off the Bahamas in 1970. Brown was accompanied by 4 divers who also found roads, domes, rectangular buildings, unidentified metallic instruments, and a statue holding a "mysterious" crystal containing miniature pyramids. The metal devices and crystals were taken to Florida for analysis at a university there. What was discovered was that the crystal amplified energy that passed through it.

- Ruins of roads and buildings found off Binini Island in the 1960's by the photographed and published expeditions of Dr Mansan Valentine. Similar ruins were also photographed off Cay Sal in the Bahamas. Similar underwater ruins were found off Morocco and photographed 50 to 60 feet underwater.

- A huge 11 room pyramid found 10,000 feet under water in the mid Atlantic Ocean with a huge crystal top, as reported by Tony Benlk.

- A 1977 report of a huge pyramid found off Cay Sal in the Bahamas, photographed by Ari Marshall's expedition, about 150 feet underwater. The pyramid was about 650 feet high. Mysteriously the surrounding water was lit by sparkling white water flowing out of the openings in the pyramid and surrounded by green water, instead of the black water everywhere else at that depth.

- A sunken city about 400 miles off Portugal found by Soviet expeditions led by Boris Asturua, with buildings made of extremely strong concrete and plastics. He said "the remains of streets suggests the use of monorails for transportation". He also brought up a statue.

- A marble acropolis underwater across five acres of fluted columns raised on pillars.

- Heinrich Schilemann, the man who found and excavated the famous ruins of Troy (which historians thought was only a legend), reportedly left a written account of his discovery of a bronze vase with a metal unknown to scientists who examined it, in the famous Priam Treasure. Inside it are glyphs in Phoenician stating that it was from King Chronos of Atlantis. Identical pottery was found in Tiajuanaco, Bolivia.

Many other examples of roads, buildings and columns are available, many of them made with materials not available in their areas.

Many ancient maps are also known to have Atlantis on them, including the ancient Greek ones studied by Christopher Columbus before he set sail for America.

Ancient writings from the Aztecs, Mayans, Greeks, Egyptians, Spain, India, Tibet, and islands in the Atlantic and Pacific oceans all speak of ancient sunken continents and their connection to them.

Human footprints and shoe prints, a perfectly engineered cube, jewelry, a prehistoric animal with a hole in its skull that scientists admit only a bullet could make, a remnant of a screw, and other modern artifacts have been found in layered rock strata geologists admit formed on these objects MILLIONS of years ago. All of these discoveries were printed in public daily newspapers when they occurred, and left out of history books simply because historians could not explain them with THEIR theories.



Further info regarding Atlantis may be found: here



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Lethargy
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09:56:30 Mar 08 2010
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I find Atlantis a very interesting top. I do believe that at one stage they thought they found it.



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raziel
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If science is "all-knowing" then im sure the Drake Equation is dismissed here. Science is just now being discovered and I am willing to bet the bank that science has already or will find out we are not alone...

It is impossible for anyone to believe that we can be alone in the universe. think of how many stars there are and many habitable worlds. then again some other life forms many not be carbon based life they may be life of a way unknown origin that we cant even begin to understand.

And its not just the egyptians, but ancients all over the world, what is it with societies in ancient times building pyramids? and the thing is none of these societies have ever been in contact with each other.
I just recently have been drawn into the only possibility of what the ancients knew and learned came from inter-dimensional beings or extra-terrestrials.
So many ancient societies built monolithic structures to worship their gods, well who were their gods?
Kinda like the tales of vampires and other supernatural deities all over the earth in these societies which had no contact with each other then either


No one ever asks the question, If god exists then who the hell created him?
How can an all knowing all powerful ruler or god just come together over time or space dust and evolve into an unseen intelligent entity?
I dont think so...

There is possibly another explanation I have been thinking of.
What if man in the past did finally get as advanced in technology as we are.
And when these great civilizations just decided to abandon their cities and buildings without a trace they got so advanced they had electronic deviced like we do and nothing was written on paper or stone again.
And something so massive and davastating destroyed them and all traces of their thechnologies.
Maybe carbon dating is off by a few thousand years, And only their most primitave structures like these monoliths and pyramids survived.
I kinda doubt this happen..but for those only believe what they can see this maybe an explanation

It makes more sense of alien interferrence than any other possibilty there is..people just try and discredit the fact that there has to be intelligent life outside and inside our planet and history because the world government says so..



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raziel
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Yes, very true..scientist tend to hide things they cant explain
That is deffinately a fact that should be clarified.
And what if there are explanations in antiquity that are hidden by the mainstream that clearly show how advanced pre-ice age man truely was? and how he got this technology?

Thats all this thread can explain is just the questions.
Noones answer, interpretation, or views are wrong, its just simply an unknown variable that I believe will come to light withing the next decade or so..



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ThothLestat
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I think Maxine Asher's "work" on Atlantis has been discredited -- repeatedly -- for decades now. Just Google "Maxine Asher" and "fraud". Then ponder where all that evidence is. Footprints? Pillars? Where is this sunken island that seems to evade sonar and satellite? What are the coordinates? She's a fraud.

TheDoctor said:
The funny thing is our technology today cannot meet the same fet that was made back then, go figure. Advancing technology isnt always the best thing.

Sure it is, and the fact that you typed that on a computer is an ironic form of evidence. We can build pyramids and aqueducts if we choose to, and we can do it faster and with fewer people than ancient cultures. There is no current demand for such things.



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Severus
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18:42:33 Mar 09 2010
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Ok you wanted a theory... here goes.

Spinach...
50 years ago a numb nut scientist was trying to figure out the the iron content of spinach. He placed the decimal point in the wrong spot and it became super food... hence the birth of Popeye.
Skip ahead and we wake up this morning to find that an Arabic knucklehead placed the decimal point in the wrong spot and as a result we don't have 80 to 100 year of oil left - we have possibly 10 year before 80% of the worlds oil goes bone dry.
Seeing that the world's economy and infrastructure is based on the cheap transportation of good and services the banks and wallstreet freeze due to their already fragile state, Banks across the globe begin to crash as they did 10 month ago. A cascading global collapse of infrastructure occurs. With out lending Business scramble as they try to find a way to down size and service not globally but in as many localized markets as possible. Local communities begin to barter on there own and large cities like London and New york can no longer feed there populous of 18 to 20 million. People in just 50 year begin to flee the large city and move to the country side where the have a better chances at those lkocal goods and thus a better life. The major cities are all but dead, governments fall, culture fail and end as humanity begins to start over again.

300,000 year in the future long after our society is lost and forgotten... "Modern Man" stands before mount Rushmore, looks at the massive rocks at the base and says how did they chisel those massive stone form the face of that mountain and for what reason?? Who where those men??

Fact:
Egypt started in a golden age and slowly declined as time passed, then disappears as did with many other cultures around the world. Perhaps the Egyptians the Mayans, the Incas, Babylon, and so on were as dependant on a so called "Atlantis" as a large part of the world in dependent on the United states today. What would happen to England, Germany Japan, and China is we catastrophically collapsed.
This week France asked Greece to actually give them land as a means of paying of Greece's massive debt. A debt that france can no longer aford to hold.
China and Japan are currently arguing over who holds the most US debt.
If tommorrow China was to demand cash or Alaska to cover our out of control debt. We can pay it so what would happen then??

History can and does repeat it's self... Are we the next Atlantis.



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Xzavier
Xzavier
Sire (105)
Posts: 869
Honor: 0
[ Give / Take ]
Vampire Rave member for 19 years.
20:36:25 Mar 09 2010
Read 1,659 times

I'm not even going to attempt to answer Raziels post. So many of those statements are beyond lacking especially in basics.

As for Serv, scientists aren't perfect, and neither were the ancients. You take the best we have and right now the folks with an actual education are the best we got. I'm sorry if thinking the stars and moon had mystical powers as the ancients did trumps logic and reason. Or even today that those who hold "mystical" views get first billing over reason, at least on this site (which for those that don't know, isn't proof that most people believe in anything like contrary views).

Now about your comments on rising/falling civilisations, you're absolutely right. Nothing lasts forever and to think our way of life, our civilisation is going to last forever is just stupid. We are sitting on the edge and I'm not talking about all that global warming stuff (as you know about lol) but the economy, energy, health, technology and so on. We've jumped head long onto a path with either limitless success or failure and we didn't stop to think which side we were on. What sucks is that so many of our problems today could have been prevented (and many still solved) by using basic common sense.

Egypt, Greece, Rome, European empires and now the collective world (mainly the West however), they fell and we're right behind them. I have no doubt that humans as a species will survive and grow, at least after whats about to happen, but it's pretty freaky to think about and I can only pray that we stop mucking up. Of course solutions rarely come about from leadership and officials, they tend to happen as a result of the individual and the population doing the right things.

Humans have been around 250,000 years or so (a bit more a bit less) but DNA records show that any past civilisations couldn't have reached the level we are today as do a number of other data sources. That doesn't mean though that there couldn't have been a couple more Romes or ancient Chinas and I'm really looking forward to seeing what those pesky scientists and archaeologist uncover next.

One quick note about scientists "hiding" discoveries. No good scientist ever hides a discovery unless it's one that could result in the death of people (chemicals, weapons tech etc). Most times when something is kept from the public it isn't the fault of the scientist but the fault of the nation they're working in. Prime examples are Egypt and China. Archaeologists have discovered a good number of things in the Giza complex and tomb of Qin Shi Huang's but their respective governments are the ones keeping the facts hidden.



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BlackShadow
BlackShadow

No Longer Registered
04:32:48 Mar 18 2010
Read 1,644 times

Sev sweet heart you always were the the argumentative type. As much as I hate to admit it I completely agree, science may not hide things but they don't always embrace the obvious.

PS
Spinach, lol



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• • • • THIS THREAD IS CLOSED • • • •
•  Closed by TheRat on Oct 25 2010  •

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