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When a witch/warlock casts a spell and uses a potion do they not have to have a certain ‘belief’ in their spell or in their abilities?
Can this be likened to an ordinary person having faith in a deity and that deity’s ability?

I figured that was what made the witch-burnings so unreasonable. Every prayer is a ritual, as is every religious ceremony. The only difference is who it's done in the name of.

*When a witch/warlock casts a spell and uses a potion do they not have to have a certain ‘belief’ in their spell or in their abilities?
Can this be likened to an ordinary person having faith in a deity and that deity’s ability?*

First off, the usage of warlock is inaccurate. A warlock is not a witch...the term warlock was used to describe those who "betrayed" other witches or turned people over to accuse them of being witches. A witch is a witch, male or female.

As for casting spells, potions or setting forth energy through prayer or other forms of incantation, the firmer one is in their faith (which is the culmination of belief) regarding what they intend will further the success of that energy being set forth.

Faith is faith, regardless of your individual identity or religous affiliation. What you sow within the heart and speak forth with the mouth is much more powerful than any smoking stick of incense. The act or ritual of the spell itself is the physical working of the intended energy using symbols while the speaking of prayers, ritual spells, or incantations (they are all the same in my mind...what else is a prayer except an incantation?) is the spiritual working in extending the subtle body's energy to affect the intended change.

Yes you are correct. a spell or ritual would not work without the intention, belief or faith of the one casting the spell or ritual.

Just like with everything else - if you don't have faith or BELIEVE in what you're doing - it's all just mumbo-jumbo.

While I really do think intent is key, I feel belief and faith might be secondary. Before anyone freaks out about this thought, please hear me out.

I have been researching resonance for quite sometime now and one of the things included in that research is the study of Cymatics. Cymatics are the manifestation of acoustic waves of a given resonance....The physical representation of a driving frequency. When frequency is used to vibrate a medium, they create a consistent pattern in the medium. Some of the patterns are static, while others are constantly in motion. Various frequencies have been shown to produce patterns resembling chromosomes, faces, rotating spirals, and a number of patterns recognizable as magical symbols used in ancient spiritual traditions. Even the symbols that are used for the 7 Chakras in Yoga have been reproduced using resonance and we can see them manifest through Cymatics. Included in these manifestations are the known symbols for God and OHM. Crosses, stars, Pentengrams...and more. Its absoloutely amazing actually,and it has often made me think that using ritual and symbolism in whithcraft is simply the practice of using frequency codes to manifest something...the Intent. While Cymatics is solely focused on sound waves, which are a purely mechanical vibrational phenomenon, the same line of thought could be extended to apply to all forms of resonant vibration throughout the various spectra, both exoteric and esoteric. In other words chanting or spells would be used. So I think what it comes down to is more like getting the frequency codes correct when using symbolism or chants and that somehow doing so sets in motion the mechanism that will allow the mind to entrain into the same frequency to make the intent manifest. There are also some who do not use symbolism, ritual or chants, because I think their minds might know how to entrain automatically. I'm really not sure about all that quite yet. I really dont think it is just a coincidence that Krishna, (one of the many manifestations of the Divine) is often shown playing a flute. I believe the symbolism behind these depictions is Lord Krishna blows through the flute various melodic tones and the tones produced go into the Cosmos and set creation in motion. Fractal Geometry is the language of patterns used to mold the thought into form and Cymatics gives a glimpse into the role that resonance plays in animating energies and stuff of the Universe. I have written a small article which I submitted to the article section..Universal Song, which I go into this a little. But I do plan to write more about it when I get time and can figure out how to really explain it better. I also have alot in my journal which will give you the basic understanding of the things that have made me believe this line of thought thus far.

That Cymatics response really caughty my attention.. I may have to delve into this.
I have always believed that faith, science and magic are all much more closely linked than many would believe.

I think regardless of what you are doing if you have faith you will succeed then you've already won half the battle.

first off, a warlock isnt classified as a man who is a witch, a warlock is a witch that betrayed their coven or belief so this can b either a man or a women. also i do think that if u believe in god u would b able to make a spell and have it become successful. i mean praying is just like doing a blessing am i not right?

In a typical prayer you have the situation being addressed, a statement of intent, and at the end "Amen" which translates to "make it so"

Please don't get distracted by the term 'Warlock'. You all get the general idea to what is meant. We all interpret things differently and I chose Wikipedia for my sauce .. thank you

Wikipedia on Warlocks

lolz...then that explains the reference of warlock...being found on wikipedia...I suppose too they would not have the foundational source of where the term "faggots" came from either in reference to the church's burning days...but ah well..:P

As for translation of "Amen"....as I have read in my own studies, it is more along the lines of translation as "So shall it be." "Make it so" sounds so much like a Capt. Pickard statement...I'd feel like I was wearing a Star Fleet uniform ending my prayers like that...;) hehe..

...and Oceanne...very good research. Another study you may find interesting regarding the use of sound, words, symbols, and intent is "The Hidden Messages in Water" by researcher Masaru Emoto. The research entails how not only words/sounds affect water crystals but also visual images as well, which coincides with other research on vibrational energy through visual and audible stimuli.

Considering that all things are made up of a portion of water and that blood's foundation is water, it makes perfect sense on a cellular level how words, images, and actions affect every individual....on a resonating level.

As for intent being different from faith or belief...this is my interpretation:

These three are much like the three different parts of a seed.

(Embryo) Intent comes from the seat of the Heart and is the "need" for change to occur when setting forth resonating energy through prayer, spell, incantation, etc. It is the innermost portion.

(Seed Coat) Belief is the encompassing shell of intent that works as the instigator of intent. To believe is to affirm that which you intend.

(Outer Protective Shell) Faith is the outermost layer that extends the individual will to believe upon the changing intent sent forth to bring about results when there are no apparent changes.

The three are not separate but part of the whole, as a mustard seed that once planted and grows, becomes so large than even the birds of the air find rest within its branches.

So also, this is where the allegory of having the "faith of a mustard seed" comes from. It is the basic spiritual law (spiritual being the unseen resonating energy) of manifesting desire (the process of intent, belief, and faith) into physical reality (those things brought into the visible spectrum of light). This is a principle that applies within every religion and belief system regardless of the approach.

Yes ,thank you Silver.:) I am an advid fan of Dr.Emoto's work and discoveries .I have several links in my journal to his pages,plus
Stuff about the solfeggio scale and its role .
So yes,belief would be but part of the equasion.About as much as a mustard seed?

But not all spell casters believe or have faith in a diety do they?

I haven't run across any atheists witches to say the least...;)

I don't have any specific deities..but I do have my spiritual guides and influences...Hecate, the Valkyries/Death Gods/Angels, ...my personal guardians..I find most people, as do I, believe they have a guardian angel always guiding them along or helping in some way. As for my personal deity...I've always..regardless of my religious affiliation (I grew up Christian) or denomination, have prayed and continue to pray to the Creator...the God/dess ...the Holy Father/Holy Mother of all things...the Eternal "Ein Sof" that is all things and yet none...the Source of the Higher Powers.

I think everyone has a deity they relate to in some way, whether by upbringing, culture, community influences, or along the road of self-discovery. Every deity encompasses a certain aspect and power of All That Is...some find sanctity in devoting themselves to these aspects while others prefer combining them...the search for God is and always will be ever-present mortally, human pursuit....again, though...this will lead you down that earlier conversation of attaining higher consciousness.

Question is...does a believer have to have a deity in order to send out energy by faith and intent to change the world around them? Or is having a belief in a higher power directly correlated to, what I shall coin here as, "faith magic?"

There are atheist witches, maybe not m,any atheist Wic, but in the ranks of witchcraft there are practical witches that use herbs for their properties, these were the folk medicine woman, and men.

Not all witches chant, or do rituals.

Sorry Silverhawk, my foreign language studies leave me a little bit off in translating things. However it is basically the same statement, and more often in spells have i heard "As i say, so shall it be", ty for the correction ^^

So Shall It Be then..:) you welcome Cabrion.

..and Dabs..good point..there are a very few out there that use "practical magic" without rituals and prayer...however, I think one could term them as herbalists or those practicing some sort of Westernized medicine. :)

"Make It So...Number One.." :P (hehe..couldn't resist..:)

The flip is also topical, while a witch may not need faith, the subject then becomes the factor in such case. A person may cast a spell on someone without even personally believing the spell has any power.

Not all who practice believe the hype. Yet most who practice know how to work existing stereotypes, and preconceived notions.

I’m still having trouble seeing or having it explained that the difference between a witch/warlock casting a spell with or without a ritual is any different from an ordinary person having a prayer answered if the outcome is the same!

i think faith is what gets us
thought theseb hard days when
life is hard and you can't see what
path is the right one to walk. faith
helps in life's deadly battle

It really isn't.
It's basically just how you get the job done, who you'll owe after the job is done and who you had to associate with to get it done. Also you'll have to take into account your either crippled or pedestal morality once it's done.

Yet many fail at that which they proclaim to have faith and believe in? Something I have thought long and hard about. Having pondered I am led to believe it is necessary for three cruxes to align in order to be successful.
The conscious thought or belief...the easiest to achieve
The subconscious belief...not so easy.
The souls intent. Higher states of consciousness through chanting or "Druid brews" seem to help achieve this.

Thus a martial artist may "know" he can break a brick yet fail though his mind and muscle believe they can.
But the subconscious child within waivers, thus his "souls" remains in doubt. The energy is not cleanly transferred and he breaks his hand. In my experience a hollow soul is a good starting point for intent and control. Then see it, picture it, believe it and when every fiber is sure, strike.

An excellent point...thus it is said.."have the faith of a little child." This speaks of that inner subconcious child..the one that waivers because of doubt has forgotten to take care of their inner child.

A child that is loved, believes with heart that they shall not go without what they need, even when lacking in material possession, a child knows how to hold hope and apply faith... ...they are open to recieve love and promise. Many of us as we grow up, forget knowing how to become a child within when it comes to believing and stepping out on faith to believe or proclaim the impossible.

I do agree with many of the points brought up in this discussion. Faith charged with a strong emotional charge is all the same.

I suggest everyone download this movie called karmatica it is the best explaination for this.

If someone is going to dfo something, it would be smart to have faith or a very strong belief in it. Not doing so anything is possible and next you know its comming back to bite you in the ass!

To my knowledge it takes some faith and belief when you do anything and the hope that it works. Sometime some can get discouraged and stray away but in the end it does help a lot.

quick answer to the question is that to cast a spell with no faith would be like trying to start your car with no gas.
~W~

In order to cast a successful spell you need to believe in that spell and in your ability to cast it. I suppose the same would be for those with Faith in other things as in god and so on. Though this is only my opinion.

LW,

I would say some who practice have no need to personally apply faith in their craft.

In such cases the person receiving the spell supplies the faith.

Not all who practice witchcraft believe in magic.

Though if one that is practiceing the craft does not believe then why do it at all?

Simple question, Not All who practice believe. If that doesn't make sense then,

Those who tell know nothing, and those who know tell nothing, should suffice.

It is true, not all who practice the craft "believe" in magic...magic however depends entirely upon how you define it Dabs. Just as the belief in deity is variable according to the personal summation of each individuals' interpretation of divinity, so too is magic to every practitioner...even those who perform symbolic rites or passages every day not realizing they participate in some form of magic.

For example: Christianity is full of symbolic rites and rituals, yet the Church condemns others of witchcraft, as it has for centuries. I often wondered how serious-minded many people truly are not in considering the vow they take when partaking of the Lord's Supper? As it is, most that partake of this annual ritual, usually around the time of the church's "homecoming," eat a cracker and kick back a shot of grape juice as though it will turn to wine.

Working the symbols of this rite produce nothing without the faith and serious consideration of the participant...otherwise, instead of the blood and body of Jesus...it's merely just a cracker and a shot of juice.

For the majority of those who practice magic, its prayers, spells, incantations, symbolic applications or not...the basics of it comes down to the conscious effort to apply one's energy to any given situation in order to change or influence the outcome as desired. It takes wisdom and a decent amount of common sense to realize that what we want is not always what we need or get, but opportunity presents itself when least expected.

To answer the question however...what is the difference, if any between the spells and incantations of witchcraft and religious prayer? As a witch, being one that prays and takes those prayers very seriously...I don't readily see a difference between them at all except the designation of a specific deity or spirit to enforce such prayers and/or spellcraft.

I think the word intercession comes into play with most faith based practices. Expectation varies by degree.

A person can utilize the faith of another, without actually believing in any power in a "spell".

The "Faith Healer" does not usually buy his own pitch.

But what about the simple power of prayer? These are not rituals and don't belong to any single religion yet they probably have the same chance of reaching their goal.

The power of prayer I would say is the use of faith. But not everyone that prays believes in the power of praying. Most people only pray when they need or want something then once they get it they don't pray again until they need or want something else. Then there are those that pray every day when they wake and when they go to bed.

For some,praying is a daily ritual.Every day ,for the very faithful up to 7 times a day.

Yeah, and I would never be able to pray that much...

i think that the power of prayer is a real thing...and it doesnt seem to matter what god the prayers are aimed at.

a spell, uses symbolism, icons, etc in order to tap into archetypes and use the power of the subconscious mind in conjunction with faith, so there is a distinction between the two.
~W~

I've experienced faith-healing on many levels...and I can say this..those out there using this as a craft may not believe their own pitch and results are dependent upon the faith of the receiver, more so than the one giving in the faith-healing relationship.

However, being on the end of having been asked to pray for others in this sense, I find that doubt has no place to play in my mind when I am believing and applying my faith in conjunction with the receiver's faith and expectation...doubt simply cannot be admissable in such situations. It is a stumbling block to that sort of energy exchange.

If a faith-healer that works in this area and yet disbelieves in actually performing a faith-healing...you end up with a similar situation as described in the Christian bible regarding the great throng of people who crowded around Jesus and many were touching him, yet he felt his "virtue" leave him when one truly using her faith and braving a crowd where otherwise, she would not be allowed to be because of being unclean for so many years (the woman with the issue of blood)...she received her faith healing because she believed that in touching the hem of his garment, her ailment would at last be cured.

So many will reach out and try to touch fully the power of faith healing and never get anything out of it because doubt assails them and no amount of touching anything will cure a disease. However, a determined soul laying aside doubt can accomplish many things...some great and some small...but accomplish that which is intended, it will.

I have to disagree that you have to believe or have faith to be on the receiving end of a prayer. Being a faith healer is different from praying. Are we now saying that a faith healer can be likened to a witch? I think they would disagree. Or maybe I've just misunderstood.

I suppose it would depend on how you define the terminology. I, however, do not see how anyone can "honestly" define themselves as a "Faith Healer" without the use of intent/belief/faith as a whole. There are certainly charlatans about declaring their powers to heal the sick that may be performing such "miracles" by means of technological and mentalist slickness, but I am speaking of the real deal....those instances where those receiving as well as those delivering healing energies must be on some level of agreement with one another as to a set goal in the recipients' healing process.

Can a witch be a faith healer? Of course. Can a witch pray and perform spells and incantations as a form of intercession or supplication? Of course. Are other religious forms of prayer likened or similar to usage of the craft when applied to intercede in some way on someone's behalf? Of course it is, why wouldn't it be? When directing energy to help another or to influence the outcome of ones' circumstances (which is what prayer is for-supplication to deity for intercession), you can call it whatever you like...prayer, chanting, or incantation/spellcraft...it works on the same basic principles that I outlined earlier in the thread regarding the seed analogy.

As that is my opinion based upon my personal experience, perhaps someone else can express why prayer and and incantation should be considered "different" other than the selection of deity or helpful spirits, where prayer and incantation (for intercession) are concerned?

Can this be likened to an ordinary person having faith in a deity and that deity’s ability?

Also...as a post-note....witches are ordinary people too, that have a notion of faith in their chosen deities, the deities' abilities and their own.

BloodLife:

Here is the best way I know to explain what I think the main differnce in a spell/ritual/rite and prayer is.

Prayer is simply asking a diety (of your choice; in the end I dont guess it matters), for a "favor" of sorts, and simply having pure faith that the diety will grant this request.

Now that being said, A spell on the other hand is you activley pursuing that goal, wheter it be through an incantation, magick, spells, potions, any thing of that sort.

Hope I made a distinction there for you, I saw that was the question you wanted answered and no one was getting it done.

I think the phrases intercession, and invocation play a role in this factor.

Deities are apt to intercede without invocation, simply believing in the deity is enough to be on the dole.

Invocation is faith with intent.

In my belief, simply talking to God is prayer (not necessarily talking to Him as though he were Santa Claus, begging Him for this or that). When I say talking to God I mean, talking to him as though He were your best friend.

Thus, prayer and incantation are completely different things in my view.

If you cast a spell and it doesn't work, do you then 'give up' or try something new or simply say that magic is all hocum?
Could this then be likened to not having a prayer answered and simply believing there is no deity?

BLOODLIFE

if you give up it would never work

its just like praying
if you cast a spell you have to put an effort in to what you are trying to achieve and believe in what your trying to do thats all prayers and spells are and if i put my opinion on all what was said here id be here all day lol its not like poof i did the spell o sweet i got a million gold bars its more like
you have faith in your higher power to get you threw what you need to to get you to your goal like you want a new car you cast a spell or pray for it then you work for it its like the saying nothing in life is free or you need a job cast a spell or pray and go out and start filling out apps and go to interviews

its like a saying i heard a guy keeps asking god to win the lotto keeps asking and asking 2 years passed he still aint won the lotto he then ask why wont you help me god says i am you just wont buy the ticket

oh yeah i for got praying and spells just dont give you stuff its just a way to alter your state of mind

I believe everyone believes in there own thing and no one should judge other peoples beliefs

I, as a practicing Priest believe that nothing will work unless you have faith in your ability in what your doing.... unless you get lucky & make the rite mixter for a "death" potion......LOL

Ritual and faith go together. The ritual probably means more to the practitioner, and maybe even works, if the faith is blind.

i thnk a person who doesnt have faith in their craft, but still practices, is either working a scam or working for favor.
"Do you believe in santa claus kids?"
"Not since we were four"
"he wont bring you any presents then.."
"SANTA!!! CANT WAIT FOR SANTA! OMIGOD!"
basically...

i dont get the atheist witch thing. witch is what a practitioner of certain pagan beliefs are called that do magic.

thats like saying im a vegetarian....i just eat meat.

if they just play with herbs and heal, then how is that witchcraft?

just sayin
~W~

to comment on what was said below not all magic is witch craft and i really hate the word witch i am wiccan so i can say this i do not like to be called a witch some of us dont care some of us do because people say things that we follow the devil and stuff like that but herbs healing our altars candles even we preform in our rituals and there are more some wiccans may not use all these and there are alot more that some people use mainly we we have what you could call a kind of code healing in others our selfs and in nature and what ever you do positive or negitive it will come back on you so we try to do things we wish to bring good back on us witch is what i beleave to be a derogatory word to us that dont share the common beliefs so those of us who choose to be pagan wiccan or what ever the word witch is a word that sent many people to there deaths for no reason at all and that has a lot to do with why those of us who dont like to be called that and to clear things up with some people who dont know becouse i heard this alot a good wiccan or bad wiccan wicca nither good or bad and most of us do not beleave in a finel judgement becouse we bleave in karma and everything has a connection no matter how big or small and not all wicca is the same depending on the coven or the solitary practitioner witch i am solitary and they all follow there own gods or goddess spirit guide or higher power who ever they may be and i was also told i follow the devil because i have an alter in my room also not true alters has nothing to do with a devil churches have alters just putting that out there to enlighten you guys but just because you use herbs spells healing dont make you a witch wiccan pagen christian what ever its what you bleave and dont really matters what anyone else things as long as you bleave in what your doing

and about the atheist witch thing why cant there be an atheist witch or wiccan just means they dont follow no deities or god for those who dont know
is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities
and are prone to being skeptic of things supernatural

it dont mean they dont bleave in nothing just not gods

(((i dont get the atheist witch thing. witch is what a practitioner of certain pagan beliefs are called that do magic.

thats like saying im a vegetarian....i just eat meat.

if they just play with herbs and heal, then how is that witchcraft?

just sayin
~W~)))

from my understanding the witches that use herbs and heals are known as kitchen witches, green witches, herb witches, garden witches and there is a fifth one that goes back to the middle ages but the name escapes me at this moment not sure you will call them wiccans or pagans though

Trying to address some amorphous statements above re. atheism and pagans and witchcraft:

Some pagans are polytheistic but call themselves atheist, which is a misnomer. What they're saying is that they don't believe in a monotheistic god heralded in the major religions. By major, I mean the most popular defined in terms of number of adherents.

But many pagans believe in undirected energy that led to the formation of our planet and us. They can still celebrate that lucky stroke and seek to harness the energy for their own purposes. What I think many of them are doing, what some of us seem to be capable of is not just harnessing, but generating the energy.

You know ,I have read many of outstanding posts from you in the past BM but this one takes the cake.I dont believe I have ever seen it explained as well as you did here.
I couldnt agree more.

We've kinda drifted here.

If a prayer is answered it's not called magic it's just a prayer and if a prayer isn't answered it's still a prayer. It's a show of faith.
If a spell doesn't happen, is it a case of "back to the drawing board?"

When prayers are said on holy days and holidays does it amplify the prayer? No, it's still a prayer!
When spells are cast over altars or with the moon in mind does this help the spell or the indivdual? Or is the power in belief?!!

Your stance on the matter is evident.
It has already been said that the core of these practices are the same, with the differences depending on the practitioner, and what sacrifice they have selected as optimal.

I thought you might like to read this...

http://www.luckymojo.com/spells/real.html

Witchcraft is faith. It's as simple as that. Anyone who disagrees isn't a true witch. Magick takes all the faith a person has. In Wicca for example, not having faith in your spell puts out bad energy into the universe. This energy will come back to you times three. If you don't have faith in your Magick, you'll only get bad results in the end.

if you believe in it and too you you want too consider it faith then it is what it is to you. too me it is faith.

One cannot open a safe simply by believing they can.You need to know the combination.

*claps*
ty Oceanne, one of the apparent few people who realize that magick works under the same rules as everything else.

Yes, Magick does work under the same rules as everything else. You do have to know the incantation, potion or spell ingredients, and how to perfom the spell. So you're right. But magick for most humans is different than for people with special abilities. It's very subtle. You don't see it working all the time but you still need to believe that it is working. Yes believing isn't 100% of the job but it is important. When I was little and trying to ride a bike, every time I fell I got mad and said "I can't do it!" Almost every parent will say "If you say you can't do it, you won't be able to"
You are thinking of what believing can make happen. Instead, one might try thinking about what not believing prevents you from being able to do. Have faith in yourself and the Magick. Doing spells the right way is only part of the Magick.

There are people who would argue that magick can be done by belief alone, without any other action taking place.
Having a cooperative mindset definitely doesn't hurt, but it isn't magical. You can't make things happen just by thinking about them. There has to be an action in order to produce a reaction.

I agree Cabrion. Also,while majick and prayer do share some features, the essential meaning of the act is different. When someone prays they are asking a deity to change something and have faith that they will answer the prayer. And although a Witch might ask for assistance from a deity, in the end, the Witch is the one whose will is causing change.
With a spell.

Regardless of what you call it-

Is it not the faith or belief that something can and will work that makes something the most important value when one acts out a prayer, spell, enchantment, or when even asking for advice or help?

No matter what it is that you believe in, you give power to it by simply believing in it thus providing yourself the comfort of knowing your faith will see you through what ever it is you are doing/asking for/seeking...

Yes as it has been said, there are many traditions of Witchcraft, each having their own way of doings things and believing.

Yes intent alone will not get the results you want. It's all of the ingredients combined together mixing together to get the final result. Just as with anhything else in life you follow a set of directions you add each things as its directed, you put forth your own energy, you use that of the energies in the other ingredients . You read allowed and in a particular matter and you have faith in what you are doing.

being someone who practices wicca and prays to the goddess i have to agree with mystic its not just the words spoken it is everything combined along with the strong intent or faith all i know is she has never failed me i also agree with many others who have so eloquently written such as silverhawk ..in my opinion without the intent the feeling the faith its just a bunch of words..and rituals..and without the right intent it will come back to bite you so to speak
thank you

Cabrion,I know that there have been a LOT of times where I thought about how I wanted something to happen although I realllly didnt believe that it would go down that way..and yet,it did just that.

Well in anything we do , dont we have to have faith or believe in something not really in order for it to work , but isnt faith and believing the same thing?

They are quite similar. It is your own path that controls any actions you choose to follow and make.

FAITH..... nothing is real with out having "faith/belief" in whatever it is you believe:)

i am kinda at a draw cause i have done spells of help to non believers which have come back to me stating that they believe me and what spell i have cast worked. so i wunder if it is your ideal of the belief has to be in the caster or the receiver.

You naughty Pagan folk you....
It seems we have the Churches attention at least this if this article on how to cure a witch is true.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1353517/Catholic-Church-issues-guide-convert-Harry-Potter-witches-Christianity.html

witchcraft or faith....

is there a difference? i mean really?
~W~

Ocy, there was still some other action than thought alone that triggered the reaction you were hoping for.
If i think right now "I really want a snowball to fall down that hill" and i see a snowball plummeting down, it doesnt mean that i conjured it. The resources were already available in nature, and already attempting to cross that absolute threshold before i'd even seen the hill i wanted a snowball to fall from. The snow had already formed, already started breaking free, and already accumulated into a snowball before i'd wished for it to happen.
Also, not aimed at anyone, it is common to see people doing spells to try to achieve things that are already happening, and while the energy used therein is often wasted, people see the results and say "i totally did that".
"I have telekinetic powers that utilize mind control. i wanted the remote, asked my friend to hand it to me, and voila: they found themselves bent to my will, it's maaaagic"

Though if you cannot see and thy head humms the darkness cracks, split in silver you are released and see that....then what? Faith or conjour?

hmm..not sure either Cabrion..:P although, it sounds like a good abstract straight out of my epileptic brain...;) ...my head hums all the time...lol

Words should harness intent in order to properly project what is needed by the one speaking them....born from split silver?...is this a form of purification of the mind's eye in order to see those things we do not with our physical visual system GK?

ok, a lot of good thougths out there. I'm gonna keep this one simple.

As a practitioner of magick one does not neccessarily have to have a God or Goddess that they believe in, however one has to believe in themselves and the fact that they can use their words and imagery while casting a spell to have it work. The person on the recieving end - doesn't have to believe.

However, with so many deities that are considered to have power over very specific things, some find it better to associate with the appropriate deities simply because doing so helps them with their imagery and focus.

I think there is some kinda belief behind doing spells, and things of that nature. And I do think most of the time there is a Link to the belief in some kinda deity. Most of the time if there is no such belief in it then it would most likely blow up in your face one way, or another.

well my faith is in God , and i would never try witchcraft .
my reson would be that it is this witch we dont know all of the facts about in fact some dark magic means to lie to your self about your fath for dark magic has a power of its own but if you think it comes from what you are doing you are lieing to your self its a out side force that has a big play and it leaves to many unknows open and its not safe , then again if thats what you want or feel you can take it ok but as for me its just a faith that is to dangerous ...
the fact of the matter is unless you seek the truth you will never find it dont you think that if you study the dark or any kind of magic unless you turly know were the power comes form or maybe you do know and just dont care true dark magic comes in harm of others and also in trun to self

I believe that witchcraft is like a soul, an art. it takes form in the matter how we express ourselves, feelings and all. it might come out good or bad and thats what is scary. if it comes out bad, means or it wont make may effect or else i might cause different types of level in damages. means or you are one to pay the consequesnce or someone else who has nothing to do with it or someone close to you. sometimes result misfortune, turning pos to neg karma, or even death and illness.

so when there is a spell or something we need to handle our emotions wells under control or else nobody knows what is gonna happen

i think that was my point when you do magic you are not in control and you only lie to your self if you think that you are , i dont know if you have ever heard of the powers that be but you see good or bad there are just some things a human or one who lives in this realm is not ment to mess with , like some say do you have to believe for something to happen i think some times not its just a fact that if something was done before it will be done again not always with the same affect but there is always something or someone on the other side who is watching and if you dont proceed with much support then well its like you playing with fire and thats what i think is happening now in the usa to many are playing a game with the powers and its comeing full circle and it will hit us all good or bad its not fair but thats just the way it is .
you see in the days that i hate to talk about burning of witches well dont ever say the word if you know what i mean because i do believe that it is going on in the world and all in the name of Faith but whos ...
today is a time to look at things and say hey maybe i am not incontrol and some outside force is at work here and i dont like it ...

spells and potions work if you believe in the magic k that the only way wicca and pagan can work

whos talking wicca and pagan i am talking black arts the darkest of the witchcraft is pure evil and almost always ends up herting yourself or others but some dont know that it works even if you dont believe in it ...
thats because it has power of its own it does not depend on the person who preforms it ...

There are far too many things of this world which cannot be explained. True?

So, why not spells, potions or anything else? If one believes, does one not achieve?

Just rambling.

Randall

well i say that things that truely cant be explained are things of the higher power and we dont need to mess with them ...
its not up to us to take total control over things it is in our nature to do so , but if we fight that nature than we are better then it and we can come out the better for it , i guess all i am saying is if it seems to good to be true that it is not true but a lie most of the time...
and yes most of the time we want that lie to be true so we believe in it and it is true to us , but to thos few how live in the light and see things as the truely are they know what lies we will make for our self and they try not to say a thing because they know that the out come will only mostly be bad for the person who believes in the lie.
so you can like that dark side and not be a part of it i think not now i am some what on the edge of what one would say is into things which i should not have any part in but are we all not liveing in this world and calling it home yet it is not our home for dont we die or cant we be killed then we can not call this place home unless we dont believe in the here after but even so a witch is a witch no matter what magic good or bad and one can only hope to find the truth before one ends its time here .

I follow the religion of Asatru and when I pray there is a ceremonial feeling and action to it. For instance, I use candles and nature as a big part of my spiritual life style. I must not only speak the words but feel them. There are many things I have to prepare in order to reach the level of calmness needed to pray. There are many things that come into play when I pray. To each their own, I suppose, but when I pray I must feel calm about it, not out of control or upset. It makes a major difference and I believe it helps me connect more on a spiritual level to the God/Goddess or Gods/Goddesses I am praying to at the time.

Take for instance, each God/Goddess is represented by a different thing. If I pray to a God/Goddess whom is represented by oak I would go outside and take a piece oak off of a tree there and leave a coin or something of value buried in front of the tree in exchange for what I took. I would set up for the ceremony and then hold that piece of oak in my hand and envision myself surrounded by it (when it's warm I would do it outside so I am surrounded by it) and I would try and feel calm while reciting what I praying about or asking for.

There are many things that are involved in praying in my religion. But it is almost a necessity to feel calm to do so, or it could not work or back fire. Emotions play a huge part in praying, but so do ingredients and patience.

Now, here is the thing...if you practice the dark arts and dabble will you be judged?
Most believe (Hollywood/Churches) that one is judged when you die. This is not true, we are judged when we die but also during this living Bond.
Not all punishments and protections are in the after life they are during or soon after the Act.
The "Mens Rea " or guilty intent of death spells or wicked intent without full thought often come back to bite...an anology...rushing into bomb Gadaffi.
So be sure of what you do and why and seek advice fore even the very Wise will caution some actions.

simply, yes.

witchcraft... the craft, is a belief system, like any other.

well what happens if something happens say you buy a posion form a witch or are given one and you dont believe in it but it happens any way are you saying that , the witches believe are bestoed on the posion so it happens even if the person does not believe .
no i say there is a force out side of the person invoved and not always a good one

and THEY say, there is a God.
you talk of something with belief, just like THEY have.

I think that would be different, given or buying a poison. It's a substance, not a belief that would harm you. I don't personally believe that just praying or believing would protect you from actual physical harm. It may help ease the pain or suffering one can occur from it, but I don't think it would shield you from harm, should harm find it's way to you.

hell, i believe it's not only faith but belief also

ok than no one believes that there are outside things that effect what we do and that only what we belive that matters , well i say its got to be a little of both but just not believeing in something does not make it true or false

Ritual is the crutch that one uses before one has faith.

Faith is not only a god thing; people also have faith in money, science, and their alarm clocks. Faith is something that we know to be true through the use of ritual.

Prayer is not simply talking to god. Prayer, when done correctly, affects change, primarily to self. There is an active component to prayer, just like in casting... otherwise it is called wishing.

Effort is integral to faith, ritual is the lowest form of this, but it also works. You don't need to know everythign to make it work, but most any idiot can make it work. When you understand how it works, and with effort you can do much more with it. The experience has given you faith beyond the ritual.

Your alarm clock may awaken you because it is loud, after so much experience, it awakens you, or fails to awaken you on faith.

Belief is faith without action, it's similar to wishing instead of praying.

well alot of that i do agree with , but one thing i dont i still say if God needed us more then we need Him then that would be all true , but the truth is the real God does not need us that way we need Him more we are of a bad seed and we have to many ideas or man does not think he needs a god sometimes but not true for that man no matter what will find out that there are a lot more people that do think God and His ways are better then our own .
I do think that Faith is there its just i dont think that one needs faith to prove that God is .
I mean come on big bang , if that were true what made the big bang something had to, or do you think it happend because some one believed in it not true because we or humans or even anything was not here yet that just proves what i said before you dont need faith for things to happen .
but some times just some times its good to have Faith in someone but to have faith in things that would happen even if we did not have faith in them thats just silly

witchcraft, or faith?

is one mutually exclusive of the other??

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