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I think a lot of people are under the misconception of what "goth" is...
Many people on the outside of the goth culture believe that goths are depressed all of the time, suicidal, have constant thoughts of death, and are overall evil people.

The question to you is what is your definition of goth? Why do you think some people have that misconception?

My definition of goth is a person that does not care what the mainstream is happining to blather out of their mouths as being true and correct... a person that takes a stand against ignorance no matter what the current fad is but at the same time not interfere with people who choose to be intentionally krass for the sake of stupidity..... but the mainstream society marks anything and anyone that they cannot controll or understand as being evil or in need to be destroyed.

hmm definition of goth culture? Well, that is tough to actually define I would suppose.

I looked up the definition of Goth an wikipedia under goth fiction (which I believe is how the goth subculture derived) and found this:

"Gothic fiction is a genre of literature that combines elements of both horror and romance. As a genre, it is generally believed to have been invented by the English author Horace Walpole, with his 1764 novel The Castle of Otranto. The effect of gothic fiction depends on a pleasing sort of terror, an extension of essentially Romantic literary pleasures that were relatively new at the time of Walpole's novel.

Prominent features of gothic fiction include terror (both psychological and physical), mystery, the supernatural, ghosts, haunted houses and Gothic architecture, castles, darkness, death, decay, doubles, madness, secrets and hereditary curses.

The stock characters of gothic fiction include tyrants, villains, bandits, maniacs, Byronic heroes, persecuted maidens, femmes fatales, madwomen, magicians, vampires, werewolves, monsters, demons, revenants, ghosts, perambulating skeletons, the Wandering Jew and the Devil himself.

Important ideas concerning and regarding the Gothic include: Anti-Catholicism, especially criticism of Roman Catholic excesses such as the Inquisition (in southern European countries such as Italy and Spain); romanticism of an ancient Medieval past; melodrama; and parody (including self-parody)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_literature

After looking at this definition I came to the conclusion that I am a goth person because I enjoy the combination of horror and romance which one can only find in a goth culture. They said that the gothic fiction was somewhat of a "pleasing terror" which I also enjoy.

As to why people get the misconception of goths as being these evil depressed people, I guess they are not very informed as to why people consider themselves goth and do not understand the uncanny self expression that goths try to extend to the public. I don't think that all goths are depressed, I believe there are many happy goths as well as (I'm sure) depressed goths. But depression can be found in many different cultures and one does not need to be goth in order to be depressed! LOL.

peopel have misconceptions because they are narrowminded, its as simple as that, they dont understand it so it must be wrong.

DeathDruid, So do you believe there is a commonality between goths vs. the outsiders of the goth culture?

Vampiress25, Thank you for educating me on this subject! :) To think that this information was so accessible makes me sad that people are so ignorant of how the "real" gothic subculture is and thinks. :)

Darkfairie, heh "and we fear that which we do not know" that quote is posted on my profile and I believe it to be very true.

I am quite new to the goth culture, yet I too in this short time have noticed a gross misconception.

Most people I have encountered consider the goth culture as you have said, sterotyping it as those who align themselves with constant depression, obsession with death, voilence, and evil.

The goth culture embraces the entire spectrum of the human existance. We acknowledge the existance of both the dark and light aspects of life. We don't fear death, we embrace.

This is unnerving to most of the "Normal" world and what people don't understand, they fear.

of course : : :
the commonality is ignorance, tolorance and the lack of them... one culture is strivving to better themselves and the other thinks that if it is not the same as what they are it should be destroyed, controlled or surpressed

DarkAngelGina, I think that the "normal" people that you are speaking of do not want to cross the line to embrace death because they do not want to understand. They would prefer not to know and to keep the door closed. That is why there is such a wide gap between the two cultures.

I agree with what you are saying DeathDruid. However, in order for a conversation to be started, someone has to start the conversation. So, if both people have their ears closed, no one can hear the other. So, if the "normal" culture is ignorant to the true goth culture, then if perhaps the goth culture educated them there would be more of a peace ,understanding, and tolerance for eachothers' differences.

It would be great to have a more peaceful and tolerant world between the two cultures!

Goth culture began with the music of the post punk era. What really created goth today were bands that in fact had punk roots. The problem is today Goth became more about image then it is about the music (which it was original intended for). Anyway I prefer the music over anything else.

but as modern people we do not grow and continue to growe and develope without conflict.... a utopian society is an impossibility..... someone is going to be unhappy..... some one is not going to care what there is to be offered to taught... ect. nice thought though.

DeathDruid, I'm not trying to say that Utopia is possible. I'm trying to say that people, if they have a better understanding of each other, can at least tolerate each other without destroying each other. Of course nothing is always going to be "peaceful happy", but at least there will be less killing.

a good example of that not working is what has been happening since the early 50's late 40's between the palistinians and the israelis they know intimatly about each other to the point of h8red... they just dont care... they want what they have declared to be sacred... land of.... but no matter the reason it is still as it is.... at each other. Im only saying that there will always be disagreement and conflict...... all the major conflicts of the past are still going on today... the reason that we do not hear so much about them is the media gets paid more for sensationalism than not.

First of all Deathdruid, this topic that we are discussing is about cultures not countries which have many cultures within a singular country....

I understand that there are SOME people that are stubborn and will never try to understand or to tolerate anyone that is different than themselves. That is why I said there would be "Less" destroying of opposing cultures. However, not everyone is like that and there are plenty of people who care about other cultures, but just do not care to be apart OF that culture.

I didnt say the things I have said to argue..... It is my point of view... with that being said Ill concede....

Thank you for sharing your point of view! I very much respect it and appreciate it. I hope that we can share each other's thoughts in the future. It was fun! :D

the main issue today is the fact that people go by all the various stereotypes out there, and that hinders many of the goths from doing things. for instance in school i was in all AP classes and when i walked in dressed gothic i was asked to leave and told not to come back to class. only because of how i was dressed. i think that many people just take the looks and don't care to get to know the people. btw i saw this pic and i thought it would be perfect for this particular issue.

people choose to be into something goth ect ect, many people do think that people into goth are depressed ect ect, because alot of them are or they choose to feel that way, for that way fits them you feel sad,mad,ect ect you dress it as well ect ect you feel warn so you mourn . to me anyone can get into goth or a darker lifestyle if they are into it wether you being depressed or have evil attitudes ect

I think a lot of the misconceptions come from the...publicity the extreme gets. Always it seems (of course it's not "always always" but ya know what I mean) it's the extreme stories that gets put in mainstream media and even hollywood. Since it's those thing which get the most attention that's where a lot of society gets it's information. Since it can be so bad, why put in the extra research? ...narrow minded people do try my patience...

NatylaInconnu did you happen to steal that pic from my profile??? ;) lol jk, I just noticed it because I have the same one on my profile for that reason. I think that goths are way too stereotyped and stereotyping is something I cannot tolerate.

For me, goth is someone part of a cultural movement that has waxed and waned in history since the 18th century. Anyone who seeks to define man's relationship with the natural and supernatural is a kind of goth. If you back, you had beatniks in the 1950s, the spriitualist and occultists in the 1930s, the decadents in the 1880s, and the Romantics in the early 1800s. For me, Gardner, Crowley, Stoker, and Byron were all goths.

I am not sure I have a definition of what a goth is since I am not one or atleast i don't consider myself one. I find it interesting that no matter what culture you consider yourself to belong to thier will be someone else in that culture that will say you don't belong in it. Even in the goth and vampire cultures both of which claim to be open minded there are people in both that will say that if you don't fit thier definition then you don't fit in and yet they condemn the "norms" for saying goths and vamps don't fit in.

there are three reasons for why mainstream people have misconceptions and fears of those of us that call ourselves gothic (and those they call gothic)

1) ignorance
2) stupidity
3) nothing else

thencialy goth is by all means a building structure used in the victiorian days, how we ever use that word to describe people is beyound me,

but my idea of people who are goth are

dont always wear black

dont worship satan

are not evil

dont want to kill people

dose not hate everybody

are not always depressed

can be happy too

are usually nice people

are normal just like you

goth culture come and goes. in and out of fashion. its in now. who knows how much longer it'll stay.

Goth culture isn't in fashion, and never has been. What has happened over the last 10 years is that the disaffected youth have taken up the Goth mantle and subverted it into their own ideas. The emo (an "emo person" is candid about their emotions, sensitive, shy, introverted, glum, and often quiet) kids that are currently to be seen hanging out in town centres are being mistaken for Goth because of their propensity for heavy make-up and dark hair and clothing, but they are not Goth. For the individual Goth, involvement with the subculture can be extremely valuable and personally fulfilling, especially in creative terms. However, it also can be risky, especially for the young, partly because of the negative attention it can attract due to public misconceptions of Goth subculture. The emo kid is in fashion and has no need to worry about such things.

Partial Source

to add to what lizsara just said, I think that the naivity of the young also adds to the dangerousness to being in a culture that is not seen as being "in fad" or "good". Many young people I think do not take the time to actually learn about a certain culture/sub-culture before diving head first into it just because they think it sounds "cool" to be in that certain culture.

I mean no disrespect to any of the young individuals out there reading my post, and of course I am not talking about ALL young people. I am simply stating on my own personal experiences from talking to the younger generation.

So "emo" kids are safe? Well, it depends on who is looking at them... It seems to me that many goth people either very much dislike, intolerant, or flat out "hate" emo people... I'm not really sure why and I cannot answer that question for those out there that feel this way. But I just meant to say that I don't know about how "safe" they are... Even from "normal" culture. Going off subject a little so I'm going to end with that.

I don't like to define it- everyone is idividual, and defining something to any degree beyond who you are just cheapens things, I feel.

We all have misconceptions of individuals and groups, and I think it is more important for us to start being better listeners, and better at undrestanding people, then trying to define a generalisation, while trying to fight against the stereotypes- which is in itself rather ironic.

lol I agree with you Echo! Stereotyping of ANY thing is something with I do not tolerate to a great extent! It would be much easier if people opened their eyes to individualism rather than the grouping of people :)

Exaclty... but were getting to a stage in society where even nti-conformism is a pre-assumed cliche! Where do we go from there?

Very good question Echo my dear...
I'm not sure I can answer that in my present state of mind, but it is definitely food for thought! :D

And an additional question may be is this anti-conformism healthy for the overall society or not? I guess in ways it is, but in other ways it is not...

hmm.. good question, but maybe we could delve in deeper in another thread ;)

Yes, a good idea, we should talk abotu this iat another venue!- as a last note into the tangeant, I believe tat anti-conformism is probably rather detremental society (and I am glad you brought that up!) as we are so obsessed with being untouchable by anything in the world, then how can we trule have a full relationship with it?

Well stated! :)

Horror and romance....that's perfect!

Echo hun, I will let you do the honors of opening up that thread :)

The goth culture has one of the biggest misconceptions around. Goths are labeled as evil, satanic, rude, angry, and mean, among other things as well.

People are so close-minded I hate it. Some of the nicest people I've met in my life are of a "goth" culture.

People have no idea sometimes how badly they stereotype. Then again, alot of people don't care either.

I think people have a misconception about what GOTH means because of the Hollywood scene. I see GOTH as a way for people to express themselves. It's just like emo, prep, jock and all the other names people are defined as. To me a GOTH is a person who likes to define themself by wearing dark clothing to keep people away from them. I don't think they are any different than the rest of us. I actually applaud them, because they the strength to show who they are on the outside and inside and they don't care what people are going to say about them.
The stereotypes that people call young children and young adults as well the older people are just baffling. I don't see why we have to put people into certain groups to define who they are. A person is just that, a person. Everyone is unique.

a lot of people tend to try to put labels on things to make it easier for them to understand. They like things to be neat and organized but in reality it just doesn't work that way. A certain amount of non-conformity is good the world would be a very boring place if everyone were the same. Conformity is good wheb it pertains to things like laws(if they are just) and treating people like you want to be treated. Expecting people to conform to the same religion or behaving "normal" or "goth" or "emo" or whatever is not good. When I was younger I dressed like a headbanger/metalhead and got a lot of the same stereo types as goths do. A lot of people assumed I was an evil drug using satanist. The problem was I started to believe what everyone was telling me. Luckily I wised up and realised just because someone believes something doesn't mean its true. Unfortunately it can be difficult to prove them wrong but as long as you know they are wrong and don't let them convince you otherwise that's what's important. Stay true to yourself and don't judge others.

I really don't think that people should be labeled and a Goth is just a person like anyone else. So I'm not sure what a definition of a Goth is as I never thought of defining them.

Everyone gets labelled. Regardless of what you get labelled as you know you have at least one label on you.

For example i've been labelled as some kind of Satanic Miss Whiplash because i have a dominant personality and tattoos. Does it bother me, not really. Is it who i am, not even slightly.

We can't avoid labels in society, but we can show that we understand the difference between a label and a person

Yes you are so correct!

i think goth is someone wjho enjoys horror and is very romantic to a victorian fualt

LizSara - I too have a somewhat dominant personality so I would not be surprised if people have labeled me to be that "dominatrix" type of person. *rolls eyes* It is really ridiculous isn't it??

And I agree as long as we know the difference between a label and the individual, then that is what is important and what may change things for the better.

There is a level of participation in labeling ourselves. Perhaps more in youth but still quite present in adults. Where we buy our clothes, the types of jewellry or hairstyles we adopt. None of this could truly be called original. We add bits of ourselves to the mix and give our take on a particular scene or style but the foundation was almost invariably adopted from somewhere. Something we saw in a film that we liked, something that a favorite band did to their look, perhaps modeled after a character in a book. There's no harm in admitting that we have influence over our fashion. It would be the height of folly and egoism to think otherwise. Regardless of whether we look 'goth' enough or punk enough or emo enough to still wear the label, it's influence on those that have been there is still visible. We can still see those who we 'call our own' and it gives us comfort to know at a glance, those whom we are more likely to have common interests and tastes with.

Do not despair on whether or not you are the most original in your fashion (lest perhaps you are a designer and even then fashion designers acknowledge their influences proudly). Do not despair on whether or not there is a concrete definition that you can apply to those around you. Whether or not everyone fits into a box or tries to hard to destroy the box their in. We are all looking to make a statement about who we are and while the statement isn't always original, it is more important that a statement be understood than be in a language all it's own.

Hopefully that all made as much sense to you as it did to my post surgery, vicodin addled brain right now.

I'll defer to our melancholy Dane:

'Tis not alone my inky cloak, good mother,
Nor customary suits of solemn black,
Nor windy suspiration of forced breath,
No, nor the fruitful river in the eye,
Nor the dejected 'havior of the visage,
Together with all forms, moods, shapes of grief,
That can denote me truly: these indeed seem,
For they are actions that a man might play:
But I have that within which passeth show;
These but the trappings and the suits of woe.

(Hamlet Act I, Scene II)

My definition of goth is a person who likes the darker things in life, i dont know why a person would be in the goth scene if their life was great, that always makes me think when a person says they are goth and their life is going good, i mean what does people get out of goth then, the goth scene was based around the true visigoth/ostrogoth cultures their lives were not great, but today goth has been distorted to the point that its mixed with these normal people putting on black and calling themselves goth because they want attention...

I would say the definition of a goth person is a darker person. A goth might like darker clothes, darker poetry, and just darker things. They don't necessarily have to be evil and wear black everyday. But they do have darker lifestyles than a normal person.
That's just what I think. But I also think the definition varies. Goth can just be a type of architecture for some people and for others it's a religion or a stereotype.
I don't think there's a right or wrong definition of the word, "goth."

I think the gothic culture embraces the entire spectrum of humanity and strives to show the beauty in oppisition. Things don't always have to be bright and colorful or soft and delicate to be beautiful. Life doesn't always have to be pleasant to be worth living, sometimes it's because of adversity that we band together and become stronger. But most of all, death should remain mysterious, but never feared. It is after all the only thing we all have to do.

*sigh* i hate labels...
Well being it such that its now an everyday thing to outright judge, i must say there is not much difference in any "diversity"
There are humans and there are animals.

Thats it.


Ill leyway on this one though...
"gothic" culture being more and more popular unfourtunately it has beome a diverse of itself!

Now we got
1. metalheads
2. Emos.
3. groupies/wannabes
4. and vampiric/poetic

Of course the fourth one you'd say reminds you of yourself for many here. but its come to the fact that there needs to be a time when we can all stop and say, "I am me, bitch"

Dont let others judge you. if you fall under a category, just shrug it off. You should know yourself better than anyone else.

People who fear what they don't understand make up what they don't know.

Why are people labeled anyway?

To answer your question Deamona, I think it really depends. The reasons vary as to why people get labeled. FelixFelix made a very great point earlier in the thread about people being labeled for a positive way: So that people could see who they would be more comfortable being around.

Although felixfelix did make a very valid point, I have to agree and to disagree with what he says. I think any kind of labeling is just flat out wrong. There are no two people on this planet who are EXACTLY the same in every way shape and form. Even identical twins can be mentally different (usually that's the case) even though they look physically the same.

Diversity and individualism is what brings spice to life and without it life would be rather boring. So I say let's relish in our differences rather than trying to group everyone into categories. :)

I don't think I've ever once heard of any people considered to be goth actually calling themselves that.

It's not a bad word. I love Cancer's long-time quote. "...there is nothing more beautiful than goth.

I think people 'lable' others goths is because it gives them a reason not to inclued this person into their social circle or many of the same reasons as to just lable them cause they can.

Goth to me isn't just depression or suicidal thoughts. It's a likeness of things that inclued both romance and terror.

Sometimes I believe that "gothic" is really just a "neo-victorian" fashion style. However, other times I would say gothic is more of a darkend version of older styled clothing in general, which is enriched with today's industrial and punk fashion overtones.

I see 'gothic' as nothing else but a mere fashion choice. I do like some of the fashions, but I do not wear them, as I don't like to follow fashion trends myself.

I understand what you mean Jens and I am somewhat the same way. I have always liked to wear dark colored clothing ever since I was young, but I do not always wear the "gothic" type of look.

in my opinion, goth is a state of mind on how we percieve life (our own or others) that has absolutely nothing to do with how we dress.

the reason for a goth as a label is because people want to feel special, by saying they are not part of that.

I agree everyone believes to be goth you must wear all black, worship the devil, hate everyone, and want to kill yourself.

I do not believe that. Goth is like every other clique out there. There are people who belong to it, and people who look down upon it.

But no no one calls themselves goth. You get labeled it. Everyone is their own individual. They dress how they want.

That is my belief at least. [[:

i ma so glad the some one brings this up i hat e how people lable kids in black goth and even better i hate how people are now calling them selfs goth