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In my last forum post I tried to get people to explain what the number 666 meant to them, a lot of people got sidetracked into debating the "number of the beast" and whether it was 666 or 616.

To show an open mind I have researched the issue :

The Number of the Beast is described in the Book of Revelation 13:18. From the King James translation, which was first published in 1611:

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six

well i think that they are right in both counts however to get what ever number u want u only have to add or subtract 50. U get the number that u most likely agree with.
the numbers with 616 were recently discovered in a scroll leading people to believe that there must be something wrong with the bible.
But for some they still belive the mark is 666...in other meanings the omen.
In the movie End of Days satan possed a mans body and went after the chosen women and was set to make her pregnant with his child so that satan can be on earth and rule it as christ had done.
There are many terms for the markings whether it be 666....or 616 i care not. i care what people think
u have a point there so good going on the research

thank you :)

The scroll that you are referring to is actually the fragment that I've put up there, some radio stations did call it a scroll and say it was found in 2005 - but that's what they're talking about, iut was discovered ages ago but wasn't translated until 2003

There are a lot of references about the Irenaeus guy so he would have been looking at other texts which were around long before this papyrus was written

so are you saying that both the bible and the scroll could be false that we are looking at it from the wrong angle?
how would we know which to be true?

I personally don't believe there is a "Number of the Beast", but that could be because I just don't believe the bible to be anymore more than the world's best selling fiction.

well that is they thing no one knows if it is fiction or false. Its states that god created his son to be human and to do his work well if it were true then christ would have to have had a family like all men did.
Its like the da vince code some say that mary magdalane was his wife...and they had to say that it was all false for the ones who were pissed about it
so if that can be true then there can be the mark of the beast and there may not be.
this one found in to different places once in the bible and once in the scroll
so i am just sugestig that u put some thought into it

exactly my point don't let ur mind close on possibilities....just because we did not live it does not mean it did not happen....just because we don't know if it exists or not does not mean that it does not. There are many sides to it all

I use both. I really don't have a care in the world for which one it really is. What matters to me is the meaning/message that is translated to other people when they see the numbers.

I did not know that there was a 2nd # yet I do believe that there could be a mark for the beast(satan/devil) yet also the bible has been wrote and rewrote many times over the ages and of course men do make mistakes and things change when rewrote over and over. I do believe the Bible does have some relevations that we should pay attention to.

Such as same sex becoming invovled with same sex and children raising up against their parents etc. etc. Yet do we really know what is what as to the Mark?

We all know evil is out there and that good is out there and they will always fight, So I guess it still is up to the individual as to what they believe.

I did enjoy all the info you put up because I was not aware of any other # so thank you on that, it is something to be checked out .

great post........No matter the number that has come up 666, 616 777 i believe they are the number mortals have given the beast. why In todays society or the years past what may be the purpose of given the numbers out. I may lack in this but I am truly trying to understand the reasoning of this.

I find it difficult to believe that in the many errors of scribes perhaps mis-spelling someone's name or even getting a date wrong, there was a scribe who miswrote the prophecy and the identity of 'evil' in revelations (you'd kind of think that would be worthy of getting right every time). It would seem doubly difficult to make that mistake when the number is easier to remember precisely for being 666 and not some string of unrelated numbers. So while I will likely refrain from debating what the number in fact means, it seems to me that if a scribe had written 616 or 615 or 732, it was likely on purpose or unrelated to revelations.

As an aside, I like the 'cattle market' idea...perhaps the whole bible was merely an infinitely long and coded cattle market receipt.

i think the number of the beast is purely a christian view of evil associated with the anti-christ and as with all things from christians you can;t get the full strory as they tend to just use bits and pieces that are only suitable to their own selves... i do find this subject quite of an interest

after being in a religion in which I studied the bible for 17 years and archeological research, also some paper documents (sorry I dont have a scanner) I have showed me that the oldest foudnings fo the bible I have photocopies of documents of the fragment of the bible dated 200 after christ, from the louvre, so anyhow, what I think of it, with the several reserch I did it is simple a symbole, a number symbolising waht is more then imperfect. as 6 symbolise imperfection, 3 times imperfect means way imperfect., nothing more. At least this is what my research lead me to.

The bible is really more of a guideline than a historial manuscript. It has been changed and rewritten many times over the years. Things left out, changed to suit whatever overlings were in charge at the time. So, the number itself could be noexistant to begin with, or was ment to mean something else alltogether.

poesraven, yes, nicely put

I think its a symbology thing that people are taking to heart. The more people try and make hard fact out of someone's prophesy the more the original meaning will be lost

Felix, I liked that cattle market one (that's why I used it LOL) - it would put a whole new outlook on the 'beast'. I think the papyrus fragment would be better if it was bigger and you could see the writing on either side of 'the' number ... it could be a shopping list !

You really did your research on this! I have mulled it over many times and to be honest I am not sure. I knew about the dispute, but so much has been left out of the bible or mistranslated. I like to pick on my sis because her birthday is 6-16.

well there have been many text's and findingin resent times that the church imediately dismisses.. You figure back then they had a councel who decided what to add to the bible and what to throw out .. being catholic I know the church has done this many times through out history

Actually,I should have stated further,that it is supposedly the number of man, the Nephilim and the fallen angels.etc..Too long to post here,thats for sure.

I don't think that there is a number of the beast, and if there is why would it have been revealed to the world at large?

According to what Ive learned,it is a codex that has to do with DNA,blood,condriania and all kinds of stull along that nature ,and the "beast" is the product and combination of the Watchers(Fallen Angels) and the daughters of man.Which,incidently,are Vampires,wherewolves and all that.Hybrids of the Elohim's/Watcher's seed mixed with mans.I am sorry if I sound so abstract,but it is just really not easy to explain.But if you want to research this more,my suggestion is to study several subjects as you go.And start with Genisis,but do your sciences,run your math and then,go insane trying to figure it all out.

Annnd once you get started there,turn your eyes to the Keys of Solomon,continue to go insane ,and then hit Astrology.All three wheels.Then run your quantums again,By this time you might have lost your self identity,and zipped through two dimesions or so,and should should be stark raving mad . No one will believe you anyway,even if you do finally get to the truth.So I wish you the best .
And Im really not kidding.

Artemka,forgive me for being rude,and not just plainly answering your question in the beginning.But what 666 means to me?Insanity.

This question has caused me some thought. It is my belief that 666 is just a number.

Man wrote the bible. Man translated the writings into the bible. Need I say more? The bible is a book...a history book as my religious studies professor used to say.

Historically, it is believed that the book of Revelation was written to describe the Roman Empire. Nero was the Emperor in Rome when Revelation was written. They were pretty intent on increasing thier empire.

When Rome captured a country, they would often sell the people of that country as slaves. Being sold as a slave in Rome required the slave to have a card placed on their arm that told of their cost among other things.

Maybe this could explain the marking of the number of the beast on man as it describes in the bible.

Information from the bible has to be taken on faith. Why? Because we cannot prove it past a certain point. Was Jesus really the son of God? Was there a beast whose number was six hundred and sixty six? Only your faith can decide for you.

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/m666.html

http://www.apocalipsis.org/mark.htm

http://www.richeast.org/htwm/Greeks/Romans/slavery/slavery2.html

now back to the topic the question to whether which number is the correct one will never be found...unless they meet the creator himself and ask that question
Do i believe it yes...why you ask? well because everything is real vampires witches magic werewolves it all exisits...whether u choose to believe it there are things that go bump in the night.
i don't know which is real nor do i care i just know that it exisists

666 to me is not 'the beast' wichever beast that is, lol.
but just palin old fashion evil?
just my input, not quite as intelectual as whatss being said outside of my realm of stupididty, but i thot id say sumthin...lol

first id like to thank you for your great work. great research and good founded sources.. respect.

about the papyrus (though id say from its looks that it is a pergament)
i understand the doubts of scientist as i dont know how exactly they can tell in what content it was written. you mentioned it yourself that it could be form a cattle market.
other then that the redactional mistake is possible as well...
the way to make sure that it is the right thing is to find more pieces of it.
about the redactional mistake... no way to find out as i dont think they will find another bible where they can check it.

on the ohter hand it is very likely that bishops, cardinals or the pontifex changed things at synods... so it might be very likely...

i think that right now we have only opionons and not exact facts on which we can found our arguments.

I'm having a little smirk to myself, sorry, when I asked in my earlier thread what the number meant to everyone - most replies started talking about what the number is. Now I've asked what the number is, most replies are talking about what it means to them ... oh well, its VR :)

genuineblood thank you. I don't think they're going to find anymore fragments - the find was originally made in 1895 and wasn't touched for nearly a century. I don't think the Oxyrhynchus site is going any more. They found a lot of other bits - letters and so on, but that fragment is all they have of that.

Its a fascinating subject when you really get into it

yes it is a fasanating subject i love it thank u for putting this thread up to bad i can not find out more till i get back...hehe hopefully it will still be here when i get back
thank u for putting it up artemka i have learned so much and i love to learn

OK..this is the only verse that flat out states the number and what it means.

This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.
Revelations 13:18

Imagine you know your time is up and you have this reponsibility to put the world on the right track before you go. You need something solid to keep the people you have reached on track,so you profisize that supreme evil will enter at a later date and he will be the anti of you and to identify him when he comes he will bare a number. You think a minute and then say 616 er no no 666. Now every one you've touched with your words know WHO , WHAT, WHERE, & WHY. Your only missing when but you now have a reason to keep your shit together forever. I'm old but I wasnt there when this happened but I bet it went something like that.

DemianA basically summed up what I was going to respond with...

Relevation was written some 30 years after Jesus died by a man named John who never even met Jesus.

In my openion, it was put in the bible for political reasons only. The man had a bad trip, wrote everything down, and the church saw a use for it.

I do not think the number represents anything, be it 666 or 616.

Well I guess one has to believe in Protestantism to believe there is a number of the beast. It was called the Apocalypse and only an aprocraphal writing in the beginning and not canon. So I have to say...I don't think about it and have heard its been misinterpreted and should be reversed to 999. I don't believe in any of this so...

Much of it comes from older writings such as mithraism. Many passages are word for word. It's hard to conjecture since much of it was handed down and blended together over time and re-written and expurgated by King James...

That is typical of any religious or folkloric ideas once written down it turns out to be a blending of many ideas and cultures and is hard to figure out where it started and why. It is important enough to many to be discussed frequently but I never see it resolved with any real concrete information. This I would find interesting because old documents aren't exactly trustworthy either because often they represent what the originators thought and could be bias.

Perhaps... the Holy Scripture is ingenious and many or some of these definitions apply. Perhaps the number was intended to be interpreted by different epochs (I know this is the wrong word...) differently. The more you understand a scripture the more simple and deep (complex) it becomes.

Maybe it was intentional that in such and such a century it was supposed to apply to one person (i.e. Caligula) and in another, someone else. There may be intentional mathematical or poetic genius in the number of the beast.

ok here we go 616 is the number of how long the fallen angel satan was to stay locked up in hell the number 666 means the number of the beast but thats all under translation for what one scripture means to you may mean something different to me so there is no point arguing the real reason 666 was interped was the when the anti christ came the number would be marked on him/ her
but when you add 6+6+6=18
that was the real reason behind it back in 1964 when the first presadent orderd that 18 was the legal age to do any thing
the chatolic chirch reported that he was under the orders of the devil him self...
if you hace you will be next

What this number of the beast 666 which is in NIV Bible REVELATION : CH 13 verse 16 to 18 what this means to me is that when the time comes for the prophecy to happen if it ever does, there will be a person in government power a tyrant or dictator who inforces a law for buying and selling.

This law is about taxation to force and make sure everyone pays their due money to economy, a goverment state conrtoll, this could involve as others have stated an implant or something resembling a code put on the arm and heads of the people

The punishmen of taking this mark is torment for ever and ever according to the bible REV 14: 9 to 14

Just dont take the mark is the message here stated in the bible

It seems to me a rather harsh test on our free will to choose not to take this mark and not bow down to a tyrants power

I think 666 is the number of the beast, and the beast is supposed to be the devil.

Hmmm, well, I'm not entirely sure as that particular text of the bible was set in the future. Although evidence has been found to confirm some of the stories the bible has told. Whether or not these stories tell the whole truth is a different story, however. So the number 666 may or may not be "the number of the beast"
But it sure did make an awesome song ^__^

666...What a beautiful number. 666 years AC, the best took control of the human race. Fiction or fact..who knows. The answer can not be found in any book created by man.

.oO(ummm, i KNOW you're not talking to me Revenous?)
The number is just any number to me.... it's only special because something said it was. Fear of a number only increases the fear of the thing the number represents. If you're not afraid of it then why is it special to you? Because something said it was....

O Lord!...Im not talking to you ~Euterpe~, if I can recall, I think your post is not above mine when i said what i said, and to answer your question the number doesn't represent anything to me, symbols are just symbols, supersticious people give their meaning to things, objects, numbers, etc.. To a christian that (666) might mean something and to a non subscriber to such ideals can mean nothing at all. I believe my comment is an extension of ~marcus666~, the comment above mine at the time.

Well this question is assuming that the text itself is literal and represensts exactly what people are saying. It has always been debated on the legitamacy of this document and I have read it was a coded writing talking about the Romans and things they were planning to do to undermine them. It was done this way to get the message out and not be caught. I know there is a debate on the number itself. I believe in letting them duke it out, lol. It was originally considered only apocraphal writing and not apart of cannon. So I guess in my view the number 666 is only relative to believers in it. I really feel there isn't enough information to believe it is anything more than superstition or a legend that sprung up due to lack of knowledge of its true origins and usage. Parts of it relate to other belief systems but the 666 has become rather ominous to many, but no I don't think there is any meaning of devilry to this number other than what people have created. (this is my opinion. I have read too many things long before the internet so I am relating from memory which isn't too good these days)

Mostly alot of people talk about a "anti-christ", then why do people rarely-not at all mention about the two witnesses?

this may be the lazy way out but I think the best way to figure out who is right is to hide and watch.. it will all come out in the wash

In the wash? you mean the reaping?

Oh, hahaha my bad, revenous But yeah symbolism and stuff... someone likes to watch himself type...

Is not the number in which we call the beast, given by humans? so no matter the figure numbers are evil when deemed by our cultures and those before.

666 evil
.999 pure

humans math of logic.

Here is the real mark of the beast..
http://images.businessweek.com/ss/09/02/0225_inventions/3.htm

the number 666 is nothing more than the number of man

its just a number.

for all out there consider this
my number is 6666
if you get the right area code and exchange
this is my direct line and has been for over 10 years most people when i tell them my number
reply your're joking and i say no
i am one worse then the devil ahahahahahahahahahahahaha