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It is curious to observe the adherence to a christian concept of guardian angels as being benevolent beings guarding you like bo-peep guards her sheep among children of the night or free-thinkers... what if the guardian angels you speak of are nothing more than your own parallel higher consciousness... a sort of manifestation of your subconscious mind... wise, intuitive, protective of itself?

Ahh, no, they are there indeed, with a mission of light, a mission of "lets absorb the smallies", "lets take their being for our master", for "He might let us keep on our desired form a lil longer perhaps, this time??:("

- Work faster!!!


"Ow shit the boss is gettin angry! Run for your work!!" "DONT go in the garden!!!*

(and remember, you love everybody)

Uzziel

They may well be, time will tell eh ? lol

I am thrilled by the collective acumen... why is the self not as mysterious and sensual and powerful as the concept of another god-boss ruling our lives? are we sheep that needs a shepherd to guide us? do we need a god to tell us when it rains? why we are happy or sad? are our souls simply trinkets for gods to play with or are we still in command after we die?

That's the beauty of free will, we make our own choices in life.

Nobody MAKES you make a wrong choice, it's all in how you feel about the situation at hand.

Uzziel

I'm all for ourselves being everything you have said.

Personally I don't see God as a puppet master who plays with my Soul.

If others do, thats fine, each to their own.

Well we are beings of duality aren't we?

Anything is possible under any circumstance

Alot is coming out about angels. Authors as Ambika wauters "The angel Oracle" Doreen virtue I believe there are angels I attend a seminor on angels and I discovered much. Each their own.

I am a bit confused...

Are we talking about being controlled by God vs . having your own free will,

or whether guardian angels are true or just your subconscious playing tricks on you?

**Uzz** YOUR QUESTION: are we sheep that needs a shepherd to guide us?

Have you watched the going on in the world today or even in the US? There are so many sheeple running around it is scary. I answer, my opinion, is that we are indeed in need of a shepherd, but be careful of who you let hang the leash upon your neck...lol.

Again my opinon, but people will worship something. Even if that something is themselves. For good or ill, they assign certain abilities or traits to the wirshipful master. If it is themselves, then they are the pennicle of creation, again scary.

Angels, demons, spirits, spooks, sixth sense etc are manifestations of that belief. I like the song from RUSH that says "If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice". Again, just my opinion...cheers.

Quite an interesting idea......if I may build on to your own thought, what if these gaurdian angels are really yourself from an alternate reality that have experienced the same event and are coming back to tell you to do it differently? A sort of advanced deja vu, if you will.
Just a mere pondering. I believe it is possible, one way or another.

I believe they are there, but since we have free will they can't stop us from doing stupid stuff. The try and influence us to the correct route but never force it. Of all the stupid crap I have done, and to still be here because half way through decided, hmmmm maybe I should rethink this.

Hmmm... You bring a fresh question to ponder..... I think it is very possible that Guardian Angels could be a higher consiousness..... I believe in reincarnation and I think one never stops growing so in a manner of speaking I believe in the Guardians being yourself with a higher wisdom of things...

interesting. after your death, could your spirit go back in time and repossess your body to try to guide yourself and prevent yourself making really big mistakes?

The insight of the collective consciousness here is truly wondrous... the greeks referred to the Divine as the Universal Daemon (and daemon is not a mispelling, the more familiar term demon is a corruption of this term) and maintained that we are all an equal part of this divine... so in their eyes we are all the divine and need no redeemer or faith... the higher self is the pure daemon but can be corrupted in its journey to the divine by programmed belief... in other words, our free will insofar as we allow it to be corrupted by societal norms keeps us from attaining our godhead goal... how many of our perceptions are programmed by these norms... if our perceptions have been clouded in this way what free will do we truly have?

Ahh Uzziel

Isn't that the challenge of life ? What good is life without challenge ?

Some people call them guardian angels, some call them spirit guides- what if both are just symbolic of the power within you to guide yourself? I believe in God-given freewill.

I think people should be able to have free will. Why the hell would anyone want to be just like everyone else? Having no thoughts of your own and being "programmed".

free will sounds good to me, being programed is bull sh..

Who wants to be controlled like a robot,free will is way better than that.

i guess mine's doing a crappy job then.

I do not believe in guardian angels, because if their were such beings life would be a lot better for people...

RavenKnight > or much worse without them lol

I am not sure if I believe in them or not...if they did exist then life wouldn't be so unbearable sometimes, but then again maybe without them life could be worse...who knows, is there a way of actually finding out?

thats not a bad w ay of looking at actually!!

They could be us on a higher level of whatever...could be us, many many years from now, going back in time to right or change things along the way!!

A lot of Religious organizations clam free will. But they always seem to end up being out controlled behavior.

I personlly do not believe in angels of any kind. However, I find that man has a need, a burning desire and selfish want for something to believe in. Be it a god, a goddess, spirits or angels. However, in terms of matter and physical reality, gaurdian angels do not exist. What happens happens and cannot happen any other way. Otherwise, if would not happen the way it did. Heres a snack for thought. Your driving alone and you fall asleep at the wheel. You feeling a touch on your shoulder and wake up in time to swerve away from the cars coming at you. Was it an angel? Was it mere happenings? Look at it this way, if there were no such things as angels, would you have still woken up? And more importantly, now that it happened, even if there are no angels, you still DID wake up. Opposedly, if angels DO exist, was the touch on your shoulder one? Was it a warning from a higher existence? Is there a reason someone out there wants you alive? Because we are able to ponder questions like these, it is only natural, inevitable, and even "stupid not" to have people take one side or another. (notice "another", not "the other") Some would say that, looking back on the near fatal accident, you only imagine it as a touch on the shoulder, or your seatbelt rubbed a nerve. They would say that you WANTED there to be an angel and so you made one up at a time of distress. Other people might say that it was obviously an angel. Nothing happens by chance. Still others would say that it was not an angel, but a part of you that broke off when you slept and came back to protect you(yes, i know people that believe stuff like that). There are so many possibilities, its impossible to know for sure and its rather ignorant, though excusable, to believe in one way with all your heart.

Free will...

A great concept and really one that most people brought up in a religion don't have. Think about it, if you are Christian from the time you had cognative thought, thanks to your parents or whom ever, you are brought up believing in Jesus, just like Santa Claus. The difference is the myth Santa Claus is found out eventually, with concrete proof. As an adult one has the ability to decide what they believe, but why is it most will not hear of another theory on their "God"?
Just like those of you that believe that Vampires exist (and I'm not saying they don't), you have been programmed to believe this by some entity be it mass media or bedtime stories, or perhaps some of you have had that visitor in the shadows...

My point is everything is learned or programmed.

As i grow older I continously get a much clearer picture of organized religion and each day my disdain for it grows and not for any one in particular. (Wiccans not included) Rambling...sorry.

There is some real wisdom emerging here... free will is something we all think we have and yet we are programmed from children to believe in and live by independent bench marks... morality... good and bad... right and wrong... lawful and unlawful... sane and insane... believer and heretic... us and them... our sort and their sort..

I was raised to believe whatever I wanted to. My family is very diversive.

I was raised a catholic by a jewish mother... go figure! *BOL*

Here's a question that popped into my mind:

What if Free Will is a Programmed Belief?

we are program as kids what to believe..like monster are not real but santa is.Alot of doors are close to use as we are be rised up by parents and teachers..aka ..program..the hard things for some is to open those doors.Now i do beleive in higher beings i mean we are vamps,were,and witches.We our self are higher beings..no i dont have a god complexs i just saying a open mind can do get things.

And the frogs in the pond cried out to the heavens lamenting the fact they had no king.
A storm came up, and with a lightning strike and a mighty crash their rightful king came among them. All the frogs were terrified. The oldest frog spoke saying lo here is our king, long live king log.
For a long time the frogs were satisfied. They Provided King log with gifts and sang his praise under the moon. King log never stirred. The frogs sang louder, and offered the choicest treasures. King log never stirred. One frog cried out do you not value your subjects. King log never stirred. The brave frog swam up and touched King log, and knew the truth. He told others and soon the brave frog and his friend were sitting on king log. And the frogs in the pond cried out to the heavens lamenting the fact they had no king. Again their prayers were answered with nary a ripple King Crocodile came among them and assumed his throne.
Be careful what you wish for.

Paraphrased from a story I once heard. If anyone knows the source I would appreciate the enlightenment.

since im still here is proof that guardian angels are here to protect us from ower selfs and demonics infulences or harm since its the devils will to kill as meny of us before his time is up

Free Will = ??
Programmed Thought = ??

If we have a free will, is free will a programmed thought to make us think we have control over our lives. Everyone knows that the one thing we all look for in our lives is what comforts and makes us happy.

I wouldn' be happy knowing someone was controlling my thoughts. So maybe it could just be something to make us feel safe, calm, happy, at peace or any of the above.

Free Will vs Programmed Belief? If this is the case, how would anyone know the difference.

Part of having free will is choosing what to believe. You can either accept what others tell you without questioning it or you can make up your own mind.

I like the theory about guardian angels the original poster stated. That was original and gave me something to think about.

That poses a contradiuction, if tru, it comes from the future where obviously it would be destroyed if helping you to change anything. Unless of course it is an aspect of yourself in more than 4 dimensions in which case it would make complete sense. I think I already believe something very close to this. I have stuff written on topics like this on my profile too if you wanted to see.

going on the catholic/christian beliefs we have free will to make our own choices..right or wrong. we may have angels but it's mostly the holy spirit who is supposed to guide us. we have the choice due to eve and adam eating the forbidden fruit which was from the tree of knowledge. god told them not to but they did = freedom of choice or persuasion of the"devil". we are not trinkets.. god is supposed to know the path we take but the choice is our own.

i believe we all have a conscious thought about what is right and what is wrong. kind of like a wheel with spokes that keeps on spinning...the more you ignore it and do things that are "bad for you" the less you will care about shit that happens while those that are moral savy will get poked and proded and feel sorry for their actions.

then again i am no god and i will find out what happens once i leave this mortal realm

Okay - I'm lost is this about free-will or guardian angels???

it is our will...and what evolzeroangel said...333

if people want to be programmed by there church to believe what they want let them,i am a full believer in the power of freewill

Sonneillon you are 100% right.

As stated above, I have to agree with the opinion that we are programmed from birth to believe what our culture and society believes. We believe we have free will. We exercise what we were taught to believe is free will.

I am a teacher. I teach my students to show respect in all situations. Why? Because when I was a child I was given a choice...show respect or get a whipping. I showed respect. All my life I have found that choosing to respect life itself has led me to the right decision.

Guardian angel? Of course. I was assigned one at birth. She is a great, great aunt who was a gypsy. My mother, who was Hungarian, told me all about her from my birth to her death.

I hope I made my point.

not all christianity is "Programmed Belief"

If programmed thought is a violation of free will, wouldnt that make advertising a violation of ones free thought, in effect a violation of free will?

The freee will was always there and will always be, it never will be stop, unelss by th eperson itself or an external superiro force fo the person.

I think there's no such thing as guardian angels. I mean if you believe in something
hard enough it become real. I hear people say that they are here top protect form Demonics influlnence, but that's not truth you and only you have the power do right or wrong.

Guardian angels aren't only a Christian belief and some argue that guardian angels aren't baby sitters or to order you what to do but to protect you.

I don't believe in them,but I like the thought of having someone who protects me.

i believe in Guardian Angels

In fact I have seen mine. I was in a wreak a few years ago and a man dressed in white open my car door and told me that the ambulance was coming and not to worry that he would stay with me until they showed up.
Later after i had got to the hospital i asked a paramedic if he got the name of the man that stayed with me until they had arrived. The medic told me that no one was there when they arrived becuase they SAW me have the wreck a few blocks away and no one was with me.


so you see i DO believe in guardian angels
and i am a Christian

I do beleive in GA s but there not always there when you need them..

I think guardian angels are a load of shit. Excuse me for being blunt. Too many tragic things happen that guardian angels should be protecting people from.

I'd say it depends on each individual...

it depends on each person I myself believe in free will

i believe in free will and that if we just listen to our gut instinct it can save us from harm usually....but then that's just how i see things

i do believe in free will and in gaurdian angels....and just because i dont practice christianity....that doesnt mean my spiritualty isn't high...

i dont believe angelic figures exist...

1) I believe in my own free will and my own ability to make rational decision based on the info to hand as a person said in a fairly famous film "thre's no mystical force that control my destiny, it all a load of simple tricks and nonsence"!!

2) I believe in a higher power but not one all powerfull being in charge of everything, and i'm sorry but i do not believe in guardian angels unless you mean your own conscience after all that what's guides you. As for being programmed.......Mmmm A person is the sum of his experiences in life so if u wanna call that being 'programmed', so be it... i call it being taught the difference between right & wrong and how to evalute how one decision could effect things down the line.

well that may be true, but there is also the possability that they are infact there, but i do believe that they are only for those who believe and trust in them, for those like me who know they are alone nomatter if there is noone in the room or if it is packed with people or spirits i know i do not have one and there for i have always dealt with the pleasures and pains of life on my own... so if you believe that angles watch over you just remember they are always watching you.... Even in the BATHROOM!!!!lol

I believe in guarding angels, i beleive that you meet em when you die and they give a tour of heaven/hell and give you chocolate icecream

I believe guardian angels are the spirits of people who care about you that haven't moved on yet and look after you and chose themselves what they wish to protect or gaurd you from

I thinks it free will based on programmed belief....Religion does tell its followers to think in such a way and that God is constantly watching and will protect you from harm..thereby giving courage to the followers so even when tragedy strikes they take it in their stride and say it was meant to be....Its all a psychological effect really....You are programmed to think in such a way and at the same time you do know what you're doing....

Even me...i dont believe in God yet when something bad happens i do look up and ask WHY?????

It's hard to say whether I believe in "guardian angels" if one allows for terminology and they can be spirits.. then yes. I can agree that there are spirits around us all the time.
Do they try to influence.. that too is a yes.. but i believe we have the free will and choice to follow or not. I'm not big on being a follower myself.

~ Wolf

it is logical that free will must exist.
if we did not have free will, we would not have any need to believe in it, because whether we believed it or not, our actions would still be the same. whether our belief in free will was bestowed by a god, or evolved by nature, the result is the same. if we dont have it, then all our actions are predetermined, therefore there is no advantage to having the belief. everything has a purpose, and belief in free will can only serve any kind of purpose if that free will actually exists.

People has free will to a point, i mean if people were to do what they really wanted then a lot of people would be dead and in jail, the government is what stops people from having free will, and personally i do not believe in guardian angels they have never helped me...

Yeah i think that is an interesting and valid idea, i personaly have no idea from personal exsperience of talking to or seeing angels, but i do believe the human mind can make some sort of protective system if pushed to do so

Thanks a very interesting thread

I'm a "free-will" subscriber... at times, when I have had "deja vu" experiences I think that that maybe was part of a "programmed" experience for me to "re-live""... so as to learn from previous "mistakes" and not repeat them.

Unless your a very deep-rooted religious person, "programmed belief" is not possible or, if you've undergone a institutionalized mental reprogramming or as a member of a cult were re-programmed in to a "believe".

leoderloewe

You have free will unless you forfeit it.
It cannot be taken away from you without your permission.
Your freedom can be taken, you wealth can be taken, your sense of security can be taken, but free will is always yours unless you choose to give it away.

Shadowfever: Do you believe that complying with people who have taken all your freedoms is an act of free will?

For example, if you are enslaved by a certain people and given certain clothes to wear, tasks to preform, etc and the penalty for not doing these things do you think that complying in order to live is really an act of free will or just, say, a strong self preservation instinct?

VirginGnosis,
Being enslaved doesn't take away your free-will. It may take away from your ability to act upon it for a time. But look through history at those who have cast off the bonds of slavery. Could they have done it had they not maintained the concept of free-will? To do whatever is necessary to survive is still an act of free-will.
I certainly don't believe that we are always free to do as we wish, and there are certainly those who wish to enslave or oppress others. But there is a spark within our minds that burns and only we ourselves can extinguish.
Thank you, that was a very good question.

Shadowfever:
You're quite welcome. I agree that as a concept free-will lives on in the minds of many enslaved peoples. Thanks for responding.

It is probably the fact of knowing right and wrong and going with it. Life is full of tests that you pass or fail. Consciously or not people make decisions and sometimes its weird how things do work out afterwards.

Guardian Angels, Spirit Guides, Animal Guides they come in all guises. I don't think it is a Christian Based belief to begin with. Many cultures have had beings that guide us on our journeys in life. They do their best to assist us nothing more. They can warn us, but they don't ever interfere.

These guardians or guides are people we knew in past lives, family members, friends etc. That choose to help us along the way. We all have the one main guide who assists us from birth to death, and we have many who pop in for a time to help us as well.

As for our higher selves, for me that is different, as only part of our true essence exists in this time frame and plane, while the rest of our essence remains on another. We always remain connected with our higher conscious just many of us don't realise or know about it. When you can achieve that conscious understanding and connection it is the most truest form of love, happiness and peace you can ever experience.

Just my opinion and what I have learned over time ^.^

I think a guardian angel is my higher self, because a guardian angel guides me though my rituals. The angels are high and superior, the only way to communicate with your higher self is through prey, meditation and higher consciousness.

Without jumping on the religion bandwagon because it is one of the many sore subjects for me, guardian "angels" if that is what you want to call them, exist I guess in a sense to offer guidance and provide you with that "little voice in the back of your head." I know without a doubt that I have them....I say them because I had a hardcore psychic to tell me once I not only have one but I have a total of 7....which would explain the voices in my head... o.O, hahaha!

Not sure if you want to only call them angels...but spirit guides, I think they are one and the same.