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as most know old magick was the first magick and i found that people split it into sections like wiccan, pagan and so on. but what would you think if someone said to you they can use it pure magick? whats your opinion...

magick was given so many names and there are so many forms, that i would wonder what they would mean by the phrase old magick... is it the magick used in the times forgotten? even high magick can trace its roots very far...

I've most often heard the term "Old Magic" in reference to the "Old Gods"...I've also heard it used in HP Lovecrafts Cthulu stories and in reference to Shamans (I think that thread may still be around somewhere).

The bit about pure magic...well if you talk to some folks here (Daermon being the first to come to mind). Magic is energy manipulation and ritual (while strengthening or focusing it) is not necessary...that sounds like what you're describing as far as pure magic manipulation.

magick is magick, it will never astray, as long as we remember what's important. Secondly, I'd smack someone if he/she bragged right up to my face that they can use pure magick. Magick is a true blessing to behold and was meant to help mankind, not play with it like fire. For the past 13 years as a solitary wiccan, I've been studying since I was 10, and realized that what was, will always be. Even though it has evolved over the centuries like our ancestors, magick will always be a part of us.

old magic should be learned to pass on not to use am I right about that?

very much, as we teach our loved ones how important it is to never forget legacies, or our ancestors. It must be kept alive....

magick doesnt come pure and inpure.
just the same, there is no dark magick or white magick, dark witch-white witch.
it would be energy that would be pure, b/c when you do magick, you are basicaly using the enery around you or that you involc to do a task that you want.
so, i would say "good for you." if someone said that they can use pure magick...b/c it makes no sense for it to be worded like that.
you do know what pagan means right?!
pagan is a word created by the crusaders. a word that literaly means "not Christian".
every religion in the world, other than Christianity, is a pagan religion.
however, christianity is not very original w/ its beliefs. the devil comes from the Bhudist religion, the holidays come from witchcraft/wicca, and the bible is about a man in the old testimate, and then the new testimate is about men that lived hundreds of years after jesus did!
to me, christianity isnt put together well...
but that goes off subject, sorry...lol

its not a problem, I'm totally glad you put that point. Not many people ever realize about that. I try to stress my point out about that subject so many times, I feel I'm ignored when people forget about that. Thank you very much....

Morigetsu- While I understand your defensiveness on the subject of bragging, I don't believe the intent was to suggest that someone had claimed to toy with magic or "play with it like fire"...the suggestion was that since religions and rituals enhance or focus magic, the end result was still energy manipulation and therefore would seem from my point of view to at least hold the potential of being carried out without ritual or religion. I won't defend the claim of practice in itself since it's not mine to defend or even my faith to have.

Paulo - I don't believe the term pure was used to mean good as in good vs evil pure vs unpure. I believe the term was used to imply raw magic or complete manipulation of nature or energy.

magic is niether old ir new white or black magic is just magic

Sure but is it able to be practiced in it's purest state...without ritual or religion or even tools...just through sheer force of will alone?

why could someone not? religion didnt create magick! magick created religion! the whole purpose of religion is to explain the things unexplainable.

i think that the main question here if i have understtod it right is how magick is actually termed..i do agree that the energy we use in order to make magick possible comes mostly from the individual.. yet magick has been given loads of names... as i said names in order for us as humans to be able to catgorize...

yes magick should not be used lightly, and it is real...

Now if the purpose of magic is to bend nature to your advantage or for the common advantage of mankind or community, is it already working against the will of nature?

thats really a good question felix.. a question that has been on my mind since i started wicca 5 years ago... im not the type that solves everything with spells, actually i dont use them much.. as this does come into my mind...the advantage on nature...

my personal view... as said i rarely use spells and i use them when the need is absoulty dire.... thus when i do so i try to compaste sort of, even tough many times i do doubt that i am really compansating as i should

I"m just the same way Rowiel, there is a time and a place for everything as we go on with our lives. I only use magick when necessary. I only use it when I need to bless, cleanse, or for whatever purpose deemed neccessary.

rightly said Morigetsu, i also use the magickal circle during the sabbats and esabats.... as i belive that the maigckal circles should be used to celebrate the festivals of nature...

well ive herd of old majik but i really dont think that anyone thses days practises pure majik i think its been diluted over the yrs ...no offence ot anyone but if you think about it ...it has gone through many diffrent states of realism...

yes but once again as said thee is a different view about maigck... and also the discussion about its pure state... can someone define what is pure magick.. if it exists such a state that is... or else i think we shall repeat the same thing over and over again :)

like i said if there was pure state then its been diluted pover the yrs ...everyone putting there own spin on things...

but does this pure state have a name to go by? from what does it derive? how has it changed over time?

im sorry i might sound a little bit pesty.. but its just a crave of knowledge :)

i also want to know myself ...but if there was ever a real pure state then who would know ...ther have been thousands of storys over the yrs and who is to say is the right one ...so it just one of thosa things that i guess well never know for sure since there are so many interpretaions on the subject...

yes i ll have to agree with you here.. thus as said about one subject a thousand stories... its something i have seen here.... its beacuse every human being has his/her story...

thus things are different for everyones little bundle of knowldge....

but your post was very good, thanks very much :)

thnk you im in no deed a professional or a know it all i just like to throw my 2 cents into it ..lol but its just like i sadi its all on interpretation...

Well first of all... Wiccan is a kind of paganism.... but Im not quite sure what I would think of people saying that Magick being the first Magick is correct... maybe

Magic is just knowing something that another does not know. There is no "old" magic, nor new magic, nor black or white. It's just power, use it for what you will. The only appeals there are to the idea of "old" magic are the highly romanticised thoughts of a world with less technology, where the people were of a simpler breed.

If by old magic we are talking about what anchient practioners used, wouldn't that have been granted by the same powers of the cosmos that the magic practioners of today call upon?
I believe good or ill use of magic is based on the person performing the spell. Their intent determines what it is.

Majick is neutral and it is how you use it that determines good or bad ..Never heard of pure majick but Hereditery witches now I know about them..Just remember the law of 3 do as you will, but you always get back what you give....Its all Karma.........Sorry if this doesnt make sense but had a migraine headache and was given a shot of a major pain killer to get rid of it.....

pure magick comes from the heart if you have a pure heart then your magick is pure old or new

Magick is magick is magick. It doesn't matter that you call it. It is focusing your energy, will and intention into or onto a specific purpose and making it come about.

Call it what you like it is all the same!!!

I have heard both the terms of old magic and pure magick... One in reference to elemental and spiritual and the other in reference to viate, chi, kundalini and hte ley lines.

I think that mistrestsamhain has it the closest. Most of you are quibbling over semantics. There is no good vs. evil in the magick itself. It's energy. It's no more good or evil than a lightning bolt. The use and intent of the energy is what would make the ACTION good or evil.
Being able to train your mind to influence those energies takes an amazing amount of discipline. Many people use rituals to focus those energies, including most religions, whether they admit it or not.
After studying for a whole 10 years, Morigetsu, you are qualified to tell folks when to use magick? Rethink that.
Don't use it? What are you saving it for? If you have managed to train yourself to influence magick, use it! Let your morals be your guide but remember what happened to that guy a while back who scared the crap out of a bunch of people for bringing back the dead and healing the sick..

Magick is Magick. Old magick could mean anything. Egyptians used "old" magicks that people say are not used often anymore. So is old the "forgotten" magicks or just magicks that are rarely used? Or could it be like in some cultures, the "forbidden" magicks? Either way, it's all pretty much the same. The only difference is the person, and the persons mind and heart.

What ever you want to call it, it's all Energy manipulation...The more you understand about it, on all the different layers/levels, the Purer The Energy that That you can work with...

Dark Greeting's, As was said eariier in this post."Magic isn't Good/Bad , Dark/Light.It is neautral the intent makes it what it is.As for old, that energy has ben around longer than living being's,in my opinion all magic is old and pure. It evolve's but it comes from old,pure, energy.
Dark Blessing's,
KA

Merry Meet

As Magick is personal to the individual and the intention in the way it is used. I feel anyone would be hard pressed to get any qualititive data beyond that of the 1300C. Prior to that it all becomes mixed up with folk lore and hearsay.

Merry Part

It's my opinion that Old Magic is natural magic....it exists naturally in all of us. It's something that we can evoke if we accept it and when we need it.

honestly sabastian and enigma have made the best information ...what they say is true to the upmost if you think about it...

you would have to be very powerfull to sucumb the purest and strongest magick ever known
you have to be sure not to become power hungery and use it on things that you shouldnt (( such as getting what you want ))

i kinda agree with that. n wow so many opinions. its weird how we wont know who is right.

Old Magicks... old Gods....
I see so many people use these terms and wonder at times if they realize that they are more correct on this matter then they think.
How people practices years ago is not how people practice now. Sects, covens and all aside, I'm talking merely people here.

In the old times it was nothing for people to set offerings to the Gods, pour cream and honey at the foot of an idle to esure good crops... or to poltice things when they were infected rather then popping pills...
In the days of Old Magicks those who could preform such wonders and ritual were held high in honor and respect...
then the burning times came... shakes head... what happens to heritage when a group of people devoted to one set path enters a new area and children cast lies to cover up thier own experimentations...
that is when the old became the shunned... the shunned became the feared and then the hidden. This is also when the words
"Keep it secret in the night, Keep it Silent and out of sight"
came into play.

The old ways are not the new ways... things have been lost over the passage of time, yet there is one thing that has remained... and that is the pure love and want to learn it and bring it back to full life again.

We will never have it as it was once before. I cannot and would not sit within a coffee shop and cast bones for someone, but I do not hide in complete darkness who and what I am.

I would like to see it all again... the times where the Sabbats and celebrations come back and are once more celebrated with the traditions and passion they were in past days.
One must remember though, it is not so much that the paths have been split, merely that, as in all things they adapt and evolve to fit the need and purpose of this day and age....

Magic is Magic, there is no difference except on how you use it and how you call forth its power.

There is no such thing as 'Pure' Magic. Magic is the life flow, the energy of the world and people around you. In this, those who summon the energies lock the flow and draw it to the location of the ritual or the spell being cast. In this, the spell flows through the caster, turning, focusing and eventually being released into the world to do the job it has been reformed to do.

Magic is constant, there isn't a thing called pure magic, for it was always been the same since the very start.

- Sin

Sin and others there is an Old majic. Most just don't remember the ways before the corruption of majic with fairy tales. Sabastion, you are more right than you know. We are entering a new age. Like all things they come back. We are made of energy and their is an old way of using it for our own will.

It is true to say there is no such thing as white or black magic its all based upon the user and the only thing that separates one form of magic from another is technique and cultural back ground. Ive been a student of the old religion for approxamently 22 years although Im not currently a member of a coven at this moment its prolly something im gonna look back into. Magic is to be used to aid love ones and friends and to make the world a better place........If you use it for personal gain out of greed then you'll pay a severe price.......you where warned!

At what point did it become wrong to use magick for personal gain? Or for that matter, personal amusement? If it fits in your moral code and you can sleep with yourself then I say go for it. Divine the lottery numbers if you can. Smite down your enemies. Heal those you can. If you can manipulate the energies that will allow you to do these things I encourage you. Be all that you can be.
and I'm wondering.. How can I be more right than I know, if I already know that I'm right?

very much said. And Sebastian, it wasn't 10, I've been studying SINCE I was 10 for the past 13 years. I may be young, but I haven't used my magick in so long. I'll ONLY use it if need be, to keep my strength. I also have clairsentinence. That's why I try to keep my energies balanced. The more I use, the weaker I become. I can only do so much.

My mistake. 13 years then. And most of those during the turbulant teen years. Not that I doubt that you studied ever so vigilantly, its just that it sounds so..
nope, sorry. I just don't buy into your philosophe. However, if you really are a serious student, it sounds to me that if you are running out of juice so fast, it's because you haven't learned to go beyond using your personal energy and tap into the universal energy.

I'm in agreement with Sabastion here.

For me, magick is about the satisfaction of the pure self, that which might be otherwise known as the subconcious id.

In order to acheive success, one has to create the desire for success, so that satisfaction, the ultimate pleasure, can be acheived.

Some do this through spells and rites, some hold rituals, others use runic forms and sigilisation, mantras- whatever does it for them.

All that matters is the significance which is attached to any object, word or act, for those undertaking the magick in question.

hmm seeing lots of talk on "diluted magic"
to my mind magic simply is....it can't be diluted....it's simply that the user isn't harnessing it in it's fullness....
the magic itself is still pure and undilute..

It's still Energy manipulation...The Greater the abilities and the understanding, the more intense the level of the Energy that can be utilized...If your intent is wrong...It will cause karmic wripples to come back on the One who is doing intention harm, if it is focused on someone undeserving...Doing it just for play, will drain you at a higher level...

I'm sorry, Enigma, but I disagree.
Karma has little to do with the actual manipulation of the energy. Karma is the result of the intent of your actions.
I can't grasp why you all seem to think that the intent of the user will effect your ability to use the energy. I missed that chapter in the big book 'o magick. Why would anyone allow themselves to be limited like that? If it 'drains' you when you have certain intentions for your magick, then I think it is your own limitations that you are imposing on yourself.

Not understanding the balance of Energy, doesn't change the consequences that One will recieve, if in fact One goes 'to far', in 'the wrong way'...Most of these consequences happen on a much higher plain...You might understand the exchange until well after it is to late to correct your behavior...If One looks at it from a single reality prespective, One is sure to regret it in the long run...

old magick and new magick its the same thing mostly it just has to be learned and learned correctly or it would not be a good thing if you misused it.........

but what if very powerful magick came natural to you? because magick can be learned but the greater power comes natural.

well if yall think about it sabastian does make a valued point ....magik was used for your own self and maybe to help when ever and they say if you do wrong well itll come back tro you ..well i dunno about any of that but i do know that magik was used for self endulgance most of the times so why not now...

depends on the intention of how you use it. people made up the rule of no self indulgence (i forgot how to spell lol). people think they can handel magick when they cant so they make up rules.

I feel as though Knowone is making up rules they are simply stating an opinion based upon what they believe. I agree with the fact that magic should be used to satisfy ones self and that there is really no limitation upon its use in regards to your intent; However if magic is used in a harmful manner it can have effects upon the lives of innoscent people....for example if I caused the timely death of an individual that I so disliked there maybe countless other people affected by his death in a negative way, people that I may even like myself hurt because of my own actions. The universe is all based upon cause and effect, there is a delicate balance between good and evil that is to be maintained so if you dont use foresight before using magic and be mindful of its affect on the world the out come can be catastrophic even to the point of comming back to you. If you wanna use magic use it for whatever you wish but just because you may think something feels right doesnt mean it is.

I agree that NO ONE should ever dabble. Dabbling in magic of any kind is a dangerous thing. Before casting anything, whether it be beneficial, selfish, or selfless the caster should have all of the information that they can possibly have and be very aware of the law of three and that it does happen as it says it does.
If the caster is aware of the fact that whatever energy they send out, be it negative or positive will come back to them threefold...then let them do as they will. As the rede says "Do what ye will, lest ye harm none".

Since everything happens for a reason, maybe the prespective that needs to be used, is that you are being compelled to do what you do...It creates a balance of many different things and in different ways...If One learns past their Wisdom, is when the problems occure...

Olde Magick is found in folklore and myths.

Though I fully endorse the 'Olde Way' as it were, by any other name is the rose sweet. :) It's what you make of it.

Majick is of the earth and nature it changes and is mallable as the earth changes.. if we accept and let ourselves tunn into our inner being we will find we can harness great majicks this might be what people term and old Majick..

~Shadowdancer~

Everyone has made great points. I just think magick is what you as a person put into it. It is colorless until you give it a color. It is what you make of it.

the oldest type is the worship of the elements and the use of there powers - ie the druids and stonehedge

great points but no-one really answered my question as in what would you say if some-one said to you they have the oldest and morst powerful magick in the world and they could prove it what would you think? would you believe them?

It is so hard to now a days because of all the differnt names that Magick has been given. Many of them can be traced back pretty far. Now, would I doubt that someone could control such Magick and use it.........No I would not because I use it.

My thoughts on old magick would have to be back in the times where there were no medecines just herbs and plants and you had to use your head to think ok I have this what can cure it that I have here. Most people never really knew that plants or such things could cure half of the mini sicknesses nowadays. But some did and they used their knowledge very wisely. That is what I would consider the "old magick"

Ceylon...Old Magick..
Guess what place is THAT now?

yes very wise words indeed sebastion... magick should be used, by always keeping the values and the morals that you pursue as your guide for the pratice of magick.... knowledge should be used wisely :)

'great points but no-one really answered my question as in what would you say if some-one said to you they have the oldest and morst powerful magick in the world and they could prove it what would you think? would you believe them?'

well angel.. i doubt that i would belive them.. beacuse as said before here.. there are so many different definitions about old magick that its nearly impossible to define which one is the true old magick... i know of many types of old maigck myself through some grimores i read... thus i think that this person should specify or else i would not belive them...

saying there are different typs of old magick and i agree, but the magick im talking about is older than what u consider old. if you get what im saying.

I believe that the 'old magick' is absolutely the same energy as the 'new magick'. It simply that the methods for magick manipulation have changed and evolved over the years.
And I have the same attitude about karma and magic use as I did when I was bounty hunting. Who is to say that I'm not the hand of fate dealing out karmatic justice? I've always worked towards the greater good. I would be ready to face whatever follows this existance. I am ready to be judged.

I suppose I should answer the question, "what would I think?"
I would be doubtful, of course. Many claim to be able to use magick. Very few really can. If they could prove it, then what could I say? I guess it would be good to be the king.

I am answering without reading other people's posts. What I write is true to me.

I believe that old magick is rooted in the elements. Earth, Air, Fire, and Water, that is. I belive that in olden times, the spellworkers found ways to manipulate them and cause happenings. For instance, when they called down the rain. A thing done in many cultures.
I myself have inherited somehow the ability to control the wind. I use it to move the clouds for rain when I wish for rain, and I sometimes use it accidentally when I am angry.
Kind of off the subject, but once I read about nyanga, or witch doctors. A man exploring the African congo's came across one of their rituals, in order to transform into animals before they hunted. At one point he described actual transformations beggining as the drums grew louder and blood was added to the spell.
I hope I have sated your curiousity

I am still curious as to where the ideas of limits in power or self imposes limits on uses stem from. It would seem that Pure Majik or Old Magik or the Olde Ways, was likely used for it's most primal reasons: survival. That could imply trying to influence weather or gain an advantage in hunting, or trying to heal someone.

If there is an older magick than that, one would have to assume that it wasn't man's majick but something elses (older spirits, the gods, demonic, etc). At that point, it stands to reason that if man didn't shape or create that ancient form of magic, he may not be able to ever completely master the use of it or handle it in its purest form.

"what would you say if some-one said to you they have the oldest and morst powerful magick in the world and they could prove it what would you think? would you believe them?"
hmmmm
well I would say go nuts on the proving....as to the believing them....questionable at best...
as to the others....I have to agree with sebation in that I feel karma is more your own conscience attacking you than any higher state righting wrongs....our own subconscious is quit capable of slapping us without resorting to higher authority
since many cultures for thousands of years held magical belief systems that have no concept of karmic laws.....and they prospered well for a long long time...
IE: santeria and voodoo

'saying there are different typs of old magick and i agree, but the magick im talking about is older than what u consider old. if you get what im saying. '

old magick... the one used at the forgotten times? about 13, 000 years ago? am i right?

before that.

look the magick im on about is magick that people never knew about. it doesnt have a name. its before anything. before time. thats why you can never pin point it.
n i called it old magick cause it is old. but not the old magick you know.

thus its the one that was perfomerd before the time of man kind, done by the demigods of the past....

exactly so u do know it Rowiel.

also Sabastion i know more than you think i do.

yeah i know about it, but hence that power is nearly lost... text about it were destroyed, of course if thsi person you speak about hasnt recovered something....

no they just have the powers and its starting to scare me as well as her how much she can do. she's my best friend and i need infomation on it which there is none i can find cause i said i'll help her. and no-one knows what it is. but she had a vison n it kinda helped what she was going though. which is how i know the kind of magick n that. n i'v been there watching half the things she has done n they are scaring her. and i know for a fact you cant realy plan anything like whats happened.

it is possible yes, as the demigods actually took human wives... i have read the story of the nephilim... well your friends actually needs to control such powers, which are mind powers... her mind has been opened up, to some its gradual to others not gradual.. she can try with meditation first...

what if somthing happens to her?

what is happening to her exactly? you migh pm it if ya like

i believe when speaking of old majick, we speak of the old ways, not many of us here i beleive do truly know the old ways, but speaking of pure majick i have to agree with someone earlier that to me pure majick is just raw majick, straight from your heart, soul.

Magick has been here for so long and come so far. I don't believe there is pure and unpure. Black and white. Right and wrong. It all depends on the individual. Everyone has a different opinion of everything.
But Magick exists in every religion in one form or another. Every religion's roots trace back to ' Old Magick'
It has so many different names but it is all the same, just used in a different way.
-MixedBlood-

magic has been around for a long time,i think its hard to say....plus who really decides what spells or w.e they put as wiccan??

The essence of magick is the same no matter what the paradigms used.

yo me old magic or pure magic well that wold be elementals all th gods powers and some ppl are fortunate to have me and a friend being a couple but ya its still around not used much though ppl are mostly into the new stuff so i hope that hepls

hey a lil more help if you need it go to the tree spirits k they have alot of info in their energy but becarefull some of them are still bitter spirited trust i knoe

thank you phantom. my friend is getting used to these gifts. we had a heart to heart and im going to help her open up her other gifts because she shut them off. so bit by bit over 6 months i will help her gain the trust in magick so she can controle them. so thank you all.

yes this takes time, but eventually she will find the way.. its a gift forgotten by many now.. but those whom find it again should cheirsh it

she does. she loves it like a child i guess since if you have a child and it goes away even for 15 minutes you worry. if it went away i know for a fact she wouldnt know herself.

well its a good thing your doing that to help her she will need your help k keep there with her as much as you can she may need you dearly soon ok

I still say the burden of proof lies with the claimant....
it sounds to me like "natural magic"
which was never lost at all...just most people have a need for ritual
natural magic could also be characterized as Psychic ability....
the ability to change or affect your world with power unavailable to the general masses without ritualizations...
this was never lost
this is my whole belief system about magic
that the ritual is unnecessary if the will and mind work together
you gather the internal force of will...and direct it with mind...
and thus change your world
this is really as primal a magical concept as I have ever heard

old majick is always used but over time the text of the majick may be altered alittle

Daermon has a good point there.. yes i think that it was not that lost.. but many ppl seemes to have actually lost the ability in this world.. thus when someone re discovers this they are seen as strange and not accepted.. i know about this, its from personal expierence...

RIP

Mistress Moreish