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okay heres my thought we bitch and groan about norms but to use a popular phrase. with much power comes much responibilite should our community try to teach the norms about self discovery.

and why is it the responsibility of any soul to try and instruct another soul on their journey? that has to be one of the most ridiculous gestures i have ever seen to date.

as awakened, it is neither our responsibility nor our right to go about teaching people who are unawakened and happy on their path. what would make anyone suggest something like that is beyond me.

next i suppose you're going to propose teaching how to awaken others to become vampires... if that is the case, then you understand nothing about the awakening process at all.

hmmm indeed i see your point but it would appear that the norms fear and disgust of our kind is partly due to their own ignorance. can we really blame them when we never help them to see. can you scorn the blind when you can help them see. and no i would nver teach them how to be a vampire that would be ridiculouus

Those who can see can see, those who are blind must see for themselves, We teach them how to see? No, they must accept the unknown and conquer their fear or else be consumed by it, that is my opinion.

To help someone that askes me about awakening, of course I think it's my responsibility.But not to imposemy beliefs on anyone else.

i agree we dont impose on others but if their are questions we must have some form of reply

Why is it important to you to guide others towards acceptance of our kind? Is it some altruistic desire? Or is it because you feel more significant showing others how much better you are than they?

first ur being very rude second i gain nothing from wanting to help others view us correctly. i dont go looking for people they find me. they feel something is diffrent with me so without going to deep into details i try to help them as best i can.

Is it considered helping them if you tell them your beliefs? or anymore about our kind, most people would shun us more or become even more frightened when faced with the truth, If they are interested and wonder more about us then yes, why not tell them Some things about us, as far as offering open lectures or correction seminars I don't believe that is something that should be done, again thats just my beleif.

Bratprince i agree with the general census of opinion in this matter.

Those that ask should not really be told. It is irresponsible and foolish of any of us to think we can make them understand our very nature as fully as we do.

Only our own kind can understand. It is the way of things. It has been this way for centuries, and indeed it must stay this way.

I will say that if they are misguided enough to join a forum (like this) and make enquireies, or start to research it themselves under their own steam, then more fool them.

M

unfortunately the socity has probs with "vampires"

i agree i wasent advocating open lectures at all. only being able to help if asked. believe me im a private person. but you do run into some people that are just curious

believe me i know our kinds need for secrecy and discreation. i never tell people ima vampire so to speak only that im unique and then they must ask me first.

If we went around trying to teach our ways we would be looked at like the religious groups. We would be accused of trying to shove our thoughts down others throats.

In my opinion you should say nothing atall, unless you are foolish enough to attempt to turn someone....LOL

Curiousity is a trait of both humans and vampires alike. So why is it that we can only be open to the flegling of our own kind? I wouldn't openly discuss my vampirism with a human, but more or less answer any questions they have about the topic.

Yes I am not disputing that, but if someone said "how do you know all this" you wouldn't be likely to reply with "oh i am a vampire" would you?

Some few mis understandings like turning into bats I believe are alright to straighten out, as far as our beliefs and rituals as well as our culture, is within our own people. curious about the awakening go look it up.

of course if they asked questions by all means Id say talk to them about it. But unless they do, Id just kinda stay quiet about it.

I would speak of the topic as though I really had no idea either ... like the things I know were just things I myself may have read somewhere.

of course i wouldnt say that and usually it never goes that deep. we do scare them

Human usually don't concern themselves with the deeper aspects of being a vampire. Most think within the realm of Anne Rice type vampires and the sexual aspects of it.

lol no turning someone is an honor and given to only the very choice of humans. our family has very strict rules about it

The whole "where did you get that from?" Doesnt really come up all that much. Do you see it in religions? If they dont believe it they will say so..or atleast with people Ive encountered so far. Maybe its just the people Ive been around *Shrugs* :P

Most of the time, or (99.9% of the time in my experence) a human's first question when being presented with one of our kind is "Can you turn me?" It is disheartening when all you want to do is share who you are with the people you love.

no doubt that our secrets are our secrets theres members in my own family, which dont know some things about our particular brand if you will.

I am kind a split on this, it is in fact part our responsibility to do so and on th eother hand it is also our responsibility to no interven and prevent others from interven. so its like being stuck between a hard place and a rock, as we have to helpp those chosing the past and as we have to not force it to those who do not want this path.

Anyone can go out & try to explain themselves, their beliefs & their ideals, but unless the person you are speaking to is willing to listen & understand then you had might as well be talking to the wall. We cant change people unless they are open to being changed & we cant make anyone understand what you believe unless they are willing to open & try to understand. Its a rock & a hard place when it comes to certain things, but what can you really do, other than try?

I don't see knowledge as choosing someone's path, but rather it is an enlightenment so that they may better choose a path for themselves. Just as the saying goes "If you give a man a fish, he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he will never go hungry." Enlightening just enhances knowledge.

you cant really enlighten one who does not wish to be enlightened. if someone asks then by all means give them an earful of explanations, but if they dont, is it really your place to bring them into something they might not have wanted to know about in the first place?

I'm not saying volunteer information, but be willing to answer some questions.

i know our need for secrecy and discreation. But there are people who really want to know . who are we not to tell them . How can we improve our image and prevent things like Witch burnings , Islamaphobia etc. if we don't teacch those that really want ot learn . We have to give it bit by bit . Only the chioce few can be turned .

I think your post raised an good point Darkfairie, and perhaps requires a point of clarification from bratprince:

When you speak of a responsibility to educate...do you mean that those awakened should educate the population as a whole, or that those awakened should try to help those who think they may be going through the process themselves?

I think your answer to this point would drastically affect how I would answer the question. If you could answer the question clearly I would appreciate it.

two fold perhaps we must educate those going through the same things. i wouldnt go as far to say educate the whole pop but be able to satisfactroally ansewer genearl questions that may come up.

Thank you sevenn

excellent points i agree 100 percent

It's not our responsibility to teach anybody anything about anything...That could be seen as pushing views/religious beliefs on others

Although...I think it would be good to try & get our perspectives of both of the above out there

& also when I have mentioned my views to others that are "normal" I was VERY shocked that they were very interested & knew a real lot about it...

I think were too quick to judge that they would "shun" us

Not everybody that doesn't know a real lot about us are "disgusted" by us & shun us.

I only changed my mind about that a few days ago when I spoke to someone I'd of least expected to be interested & have a full blown conversation about it with me

Just to rectify Jenova's ever knowing argument, we are there to share, and maybe help someone make a decision. The responsibility lies within ones self to be true, and pure, so to speak. Not to tell someone what to do, like I fancy you, in a round about way, like to do.

Key word, share. Not preach.

I think we have a certain responsibility to the norms but you always have to be careful with who you trust

*sigh* This is not an issue of RESPONSIBILITY. It is an issue of engaging in CHARITY WORK. It's a "nice to do", but has little benefit in the long run and is inherently a waste of time to seek out those who we hope will understand us.

If a newly awakened comes to ask questions, fine. But then again, there are a lot of resources if you bother to buy a few books and look in a few places online. Ultimately, each person will need to find their own path as an awakened... and most who are not awakened are quite simply not interested.

Inherent... waste... of... time...

hmmm jenova for someone who is supposed to be awakened you sure dont grasp much. all these differing views and yet you continue your negativism intresting.

I belong to several different groups on Yahoo for real vampires. The purpose of those groups is for vampires to discuss issues relevant to vampirism amongst themselves; feeding, energy, whatnot. Some groups require discussions to focus strictly on vampirism related topics but some do not.

ALL of those groups have an open-door (until you abuse the privelage) policy. If you have questions about vampires, think you might be a vampire, want to know about vampires, are a newly awakened vampire, know a vampire, or WHATEVER - you're welcome there. NONE of us are better than another and it isn't our job to sit up higher than someone and taunt them with "secret knowledge".

It isn't "Charity Work" to share our knowledge. It really is responsibility. When you consider how easy it is for people to find information these days, most of it incorrect, wouldn't you rather they found the correct information because you took time out of your life to answer some questions rather than hear later that they had come to harm? I know I would.

Of course, not only is this my position, it's my responsibility as an Associate of the Vampire Church.

i think we only have to help teach when we are asked to inform. just like most ppl dont like... for lack of a better work "holy rollers" telling them about jesus and christ and being saved.... im sure they wont like us telling them about vampyric cultures and beliefs. i think that each person is different... and whereas someone would love to help otehrs awaken... someone else would care less. and some will help if asked. i think that if u feel u have a responsibility to help otehrs understand then u can find a way to teach or inform.

or if someone asks u, u can take them under ur wing. but its not a mandatory responsibility.

thank both points were expertly handled well done. we cant berate the un awakened for being closeminded if are just as closeminded as they are

Jenova isn't being negative, it's her point of view

It's not a "responcibility", I think you chose the wrong word for the question lol

I believe that if i were asked a question i would answer it, but i would also be careful not to give away to much information concerning the question

I have no problem helping someone through their awakening, if they ask of my help. Other than that, i feel that people need to find their way through things. If they don't understand us, then it is up to them to try. I will not preach. Unless, when asked: 1) Can you turn me?, 2) So, you never die, right?, 3) You can turn into a bat?, or my personal favorite 4) Do you hunt people down and drain them of all their blood? I will definitely preach then. I am what I am. I am not immortal. Yes, I can go out during the day. I do not turn into a bat. And, no I don't drain the life out of people, although I wish I could do it to some people. But, as far as a responsibility to informing people, I do not feel any type of responsibility.

You can not teach those who do not want to me teached. I feel you should only teach those who come to you.

I believe that if asked a question about who or what you are in genuine curiosity than you should answer it truthfull and to the best of your knowledge so as to promote an educated opinion. I do not believe that anyone should lead someone else on their personal life path but should allow them to guide themselves. And perhaps be there for support should they fall.

Awakening is different for everyone and u can give some advices but there is no help.
U must go through that alone

And exactly who would do such a teaching? And what so-called self discovery would be taught?

If your so- called "norm" is open then speak. If not, I suggest that you go quitely past

it can hardly be self discovery if someone does it for them, now can it? You can tell some people things, but some things they just have to find out for themselves, or it is not the same

Many of us here are more intuitive than others, but I agree with many comments posted already. We can only guide those who are likeminded. I personally am very careful to whom I speak openly about vampirism or even paganism.

If the "norms" really wish to know more about us they will learn on their own or by asking one of us to teach them. Trying to teach people some thing they don't care to learn is just like some one trying to cram religion down some ones throat.

People won't learn unless they want to. Most prefer to stick to their stigma and fears than find out the truth.

If they want to know, they will seek out the information on their own. There's no need to "teach" them, there is already a wealth of information out there for people who are inclined to learn.

It is the respponsibility of those who have been awaked to not make fools of themselves and to not play into to who stereotype. I think that if a person come to you with questions you should teach them to a point. Otherwise it is no ones real business.

No one can be forced to learn they have to want it. If you find a "mundane" who is interested in the vampire lifestyle teach them as for the others they choose to remain in the dark.

I accept no responsibilty outside my personal circle of friends to become involved in anothers evolution. How can one tell another the secrets that cannot be spoken, but known by those who are born to know them.
Otherwise all one needs to know has already been posted; the techniques of feeding, being most important, can be found on most sites.
Unfortunatly all the data is useless without previous experience........

I don't think so .... but that just me

i don't think that they're ready yet

Only problem with that is no matter how much you try to teach them will will still deny what is not normal... Its hard but we have to deal with being outsiders... although I enjoy it

The question I pose to you is why wouldn't we? Yet in the same respect we can't teach we can just show someone parts.... Even at that we won't be able to do a lot. The person must discover on their own the knowledge in which they search, but we can try to help them as much as possible....

Now what do you mean by "norms"? I will teach nothing to no one. I respect the strength I have by learning everything on my own, with no help from anyone. I would rather see a generation uninfluenced by pop-culture, literature, and movies. Stop naming yourself after fictional characters. Stop painting your face up like persons from a movie. Maybe then will you learn what I have. That was my old, special moment of the night.

People should find things out on their own...The internet is a vast resource of knowledge..If people really wanted to know anything about any type of scene they can find it online...And if people dont like you a ten minute conversation about the vamp or goth scene will not help them think any diffrently...

i understand your intentions, but why should we? if people are happy with the way they are walking why should we try to change that? maybe they don't understand what we are or the path that we walk, that is there problem. i don't think we should try to change who they are. i mean would you want someone to try and change you?

elemental, the problem with the internet is that sometimes it contains a lot of useless and false information. even this web site contains thoughts and fallacies that are far from the truth of the actual vampire.

bratprince, so your 'family' has rules about turning humans. i'm curious to know what you believe is the process for turning. do you bite people and "tag you're it" or is there a metaphysical or occult explanation behind the act of turning someone?

I'm intreaged.....

Ok, devils advocate time.

Why NOT tell others, why NOT start a mass PR campaign highlighting the advantages of being enlightened?

What have you got to hide/be ashamed of?

I am not one for FORCING my beliefs on others, but I'm not talking about forcing someone, I'm talking about informing everyone.

And yes, 9 out of 10 may not open even half an ear, but what about the 10th person?

Jenova, we have had a number of discussions in the past, you know I'm genuine, I am intreaged, I'd like to know, why not?

On a side note, when I get approached by Jehova's Witnesses or similar, I will tell them all about my faith, to my mind if they are trying to sell me theirs' they are fair game to be sold mine....

if we dont take the responsibility to change people's opinions and when they judge us...then it is our fault for not trying

if they dont know who they are they should try to find out

I agree with Druidic, although I think it'd be a larger number than 9 out of the 10, not by much...

I've spoken to the norms about things like this and I was suprised at how much they actually knew, people I thought that would find this stuff hilarious

i agree with mcgurl

Druidic posted:
I'm intreaged.....

Ok, devils advocate time.

Why NOT tell others, why NOT start a mass PR campaign highlighting the advantages of being enlightened?

What have you got to hide/be ashamed of?

I reply:
Let's start off with the obvious: children. Many of us are parents. Our children must go to school with other children. Perhaps you don't remember your childhood, but I do. I remember the times I was the cruel girl making fun of others and I remember the times I was the one being made fun of. Who wants to put their children through that?

Or branching out on the children aspect, this would open up a WHOLE aspect of investigation and panic from people who really have no business being in your personal lives. Are you ready to put up with that?

Vampirism isn't a religion. It isn't covered under any constitution. Are you willing to lose your job because your employer doesn't understand it?

And let's not forget the idiots who cannot seperate fantasy from reality and think they're "slayers" and are out to rid the world of vampires. You might think they're harmless. But let them find out you're a vampire - or claiming to be - and you'll find out how harmless being harassed day and night, possibly "hunted" really is!

No, there's nothing to be ashamed of, but there are plenty of reasons to not tell others.

I only tell people if I think they need to know. So far, I've only really come across bitter disappointment that I'm not a fictional vampire, LOL. I've been lucky.

Ah, all valid responses, and good reasons on their own.....

But the people I work with know I'm a Druid, it often sparkes interesting debate.

We had some trouble with the youngests last school as the head was staunch catholic, but we dealt with it, and when we moved to the new house, he moved school, and we have not had a problem since.

One of the arguments is that so long as people hide their believes in general from the public and allow themselves to be afraid of society, they will ALWAYS be excluded from society.

People fear that they do not understand, if they are given the information to understand intelligent people will no longer fear (I exclude CHAVS from this, they are not intelligent people)

Discuss!

well i believe if a norm wants to know about something they will endevour to search otherwise its better to leave alone...

The best anyone can do for the inexperienced is to pass on some wise words and some of the knowledge they have gained. But in the end that individual has to find their own path they have to make mistakes and learn from them how else are they going to grow within themselves as a better person.

Ishata,

Good response, but I'm not talking about doing the learning for any one, I'm talking about openning their eyes to other paths.

People are blinkered, they need a little help to remove those blinkers, without some sense there IS a wider world, how can they ever break out and experience it?

I feel that as an awakened vampire, the responsibilty for me lies only in mentoring those who are newly awakened, or going through it. Everyone needs someone to help them understand at this point. for recognition, and support. We should only do this if sought out by the person that is enduring it, and never just randonmly help someone.

As far as acceptance, who cares. noone but others of our own kind can truly understand us. i am what i am, and no amout of understanding, acceptance or lack thereof will change that. I accept what I am, and if noone esle accepts it, I dont really care.

Just my few cents...

If a person wants to learn something about another persons lifestyle then they will ask them and if they dont they will not ask.. So really its not up to use to awaken anyone they will think what they want anyway...

You all have valid points from each point of view. I have the stand that everyone should all ways learn and everyone should always teach but if the people do not have open hearts to what we teach then the lessons fall on def ears .

Teach to those whom wish to learn and alow the others to live in there shallow exisance

It should also be noted that often times teachers can only teach to their ablility. They too are still learning.

It is only a responsibility to teach for someone who feels this need. Not everyone does, and therefore not everyone should teach.

The point of teaching removes the self from the teacher, it is about the student and their progress. In that Jenova is correct not everyone will do this, and it is charity. Those who do teach understand that to be successful it is not about what you know, but how you express what you know so that those who you guide are able to use your knowledge.

If they do not understand you, then the teaching is a waste of everyone's time. Think before you leap. Watch before you do.

I agree Liebe. But there is always someone who knows more than you and someone who knows less then you. there for you can always share at least what you know even if its not in a teaching mannor.