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menerfecious
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10:51:12 Aug 02 2007
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Does anyone here on VR believe they have had any past lives, and if so, why do you believe it?

I personally believe I have had many past lives. The reason I believe this is because I underwent hypnotic regression as a teenager and was allowed to view the videos and listen to the tapes that were made. I also recieved a complete transcript of what happened during this regression.

It was quite an experience as the regressive therapy was done in stages and the course lasted quite a few sessions.

Since then I have been experiencing flashbacks and memories that plainly are not mine from this life.




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Infernalmage
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11:00:41 Aug 02 2007
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I believe it from dreams I have had, places that I have been, and things that I instinctively know



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MinxyMoon
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12:14:28 Aug 02 2007
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Hey Mener... Cool thread.

Actually, i never believed I had any past lives.. Until recently I felt this was IT.. However, I have a good friend, Who Says WE met in a past life, this friend is encouraging me to Astral Travel more with him.
When i first met my freind, I felt like I had always known him, it wasn't JUST being comfortable with him, it was far deeper than that. It was recognition.

He thinks we met long ago, and that he was my brother OR my Partner. I had a dream and it was about him, and the past, this was months after he had said this though, that is how I can rule out auto-suggestion.

The dream was very Lucid with colour. I rememebr the feeling too.
I told him abou this dream, he affirmed the dream in that it was the same as his feeling. He asked me to identify certain parts of my dream and he ONLY went and showed me the SAME cloth that I dreamt he was wearing at the time!

It blew me away. So, now I believe it is possible I lived before.

I amnot sure about re-incarnation, because population is growing FAST.
I have yet to get my head around that part.
My nana always said I was something 'different' I was born with a silver streak in my hair... And as a young kid, my hands can change temperature to warm people or cool them if need be.




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wyckedmortisa
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12:46:09 Aug 02 2007
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oh yes definatly past life deja vu all teh time and dreams of the past and some of the furture



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Deadlyviper
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12:52:32 Aug 02 2007
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when people have de ja vu, that could of been somewhere you have visited in a past life, it is a possibility. it could be linked to to theory of evolution where we evoled from apes. maybe in the past lifes we were animals that exsisted back then. and evoled in to what we are to day through that progess.


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Aoibheal
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12:53:57 Aug 02 2007
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Most definitely I believe in past lives. I fully believe in reincarnation and as such I know I have lived before.

My lifemate and I were together in a previous plane and feel we have just *picked up* where we left off.

There are too many times when I just *know* I have been there before or *said* that in a past conversation.

It is very difficult to explain to someone exactly what you are experiencing or even just talking about, especially if the person you are talking to doesn't believe...



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Sonneillon
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12:54:24 Aug 02 2007
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I can't say that I have had any past lives since I don't remember any dreams or have had any flashbacks to indicate that I have had any.

I do think it may be possible for other people however.



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RaineVampire
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13:00:54 Aug 02 2007
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This is a very interesting thread, Menerfecious... in fact i do believe. I had a regression about a year ago... and i could describe places and i could give names that i could check up later and i realized that i was in greece and also in China... i've been men and women in different stages of my past lives...



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Panthra
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13:42:38 Aug 02 2007
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well id think that i have.... for the deja vu s ive had



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DawnofDays
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14:25:10 Aug 02 2007
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yes i do for i have dream in a different time perod then the time now, i think that we all do in some way or another.



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XBetrayedX
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14:36:10 Aug 02 2007
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I do believe that I have had quite a few past lives, sometimes I find my self remembering things that I have never done, or remembering places that I have never been to. It is really quite strange, but I would like to learn more on the subject.



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RavenKnight
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14:38:38 Aug 02 2007
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I believe in reincarnation, so i believe that i have had many past lives, i have never had memories of my past lives, but i think they are just buried down in my mind somewhere...



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Nightmarehound666
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14:42:43 Aug 02 2007
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my opion is yes and thats my opion
well lets yes just that feeling



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Flake
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15:37:15 Aug 02 2007
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This is all very true, in my mind at least.

One doesn't even need past life regression to figure that out. Some people may notice that they are "wise beyond their years" or that they have a certain level of jadedness, and these are what I contribute to past lives. Past lives mean you have been around the block a couple times, and each time you learn something or many things which I am sure you subconciously take with you. That is where the wisdom comes from. Also, it is quite easy to tell the different between an old soul and an (for lack of a better word) infant soul, very easy indeed.

Thats my two cents, great thread!



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CryingMist
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16:41:36 Aug 02 2007
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my mom told me we were together in a past life, I never got to verify it, but it could be a possibility



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VoodooDolly
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16:43:04 Aug 02 2007
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Sometimes I am a little skeptical on the whole idea, but I do think I've had past lives because I've had so many dreams where I was in familiar place but I know that I'd never been there before.



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cadrewolf
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17:00:10 Aug 02 2007
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Flashes of memories or de ju vo always brings thoughts of past lives. for every death there is a new begining. why not with us today. yes past life.



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Angel4Blood
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17:06:10 Aug 02 2007
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I know I've been here many times before this life. and I know because of my dreams and some memories in my head that I know are not from this life.



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ShadoDreamer
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18:07:00 Aug 02 2007
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I tend to get flashes of memories of the past when I am sleeping and yes I believe in past lives/reincarnation



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SteelTalons
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18:35:11 Aug 02 2007
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I've had dreams of what I believe are past lives, and I've also come in contact with people that I feel I have known before even though I'd never met them.
I'd LOVE to do a regression such as you have and have something documented. I've been interested in that for a long time.



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MaliceCross
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19:50:12 Aug 02 2007
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I have a feeling I have had a past life, from the feelings I have gotten and and when doing something or seeing something I would think to be new, it seems like I have been there and done that before.

I would hope that I am not mistaken, obviously I cannot really explain it, but someday I would like to find out if I really did or not



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brimstoker
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19:53:41 Aug 02 2007
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I think i was bad in my past life. this one is shity



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Buta
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20:54:55 Aug 02 2007
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I completely believe
My soul is rather old and I've been able to keep those that I truely love close by in almost all of them



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ShaolinWicca
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20:56:21 Aug 02 2007
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According to a trusted psychic, I was Grigori Rasputin in a past life. My mentor can also sense him in my energy. I have always had certain abilities and it seems I was not the first in my spiritual line.



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MeaninglessTears
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21:23:25 Aug 02 2007
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I dont believe in past lives. Well, ok I dont believe I'VE had a past life. Others maybie.

Some people think I've had past lives though =/



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Charon
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21:24:17 Aug 02 2007
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I dunno, I've encountered nothing in this life to make me believe I have led previous lives. So I am inclined to believe that I am living my first life presently.

We'll see if that turns out to be the case, hehe.



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Violator78
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21:24:33 Aug 02 2007
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Great thread.

I've had dreams that are far too real in emotion and sensation to just be a dream. One in where I'm in medieval attire and getting my throat slit by a lynch mob of some sort behind a large building in late evening or early morning hours. I slowly die in the dream and feel every second of pain and emotion. I woke up crying and when a dream has an effect like that, how can there not be more to it?

I love dreams.



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Trivia
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21:33:14 Aug 02 2007
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I have felt old my entire life. Constantly I met and still meet people I know even though I have never seen them before.

I firmly believe in past lives.



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BloodxXxOverDose
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21:42:39 Aug 02 2007
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i personally believe that i have had past lives in other forms of the body in the past than just this one
why?
because of dreams,de ja vues and personal experiences in my current life.



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Violator78
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21:59:41 Aug 02 2007
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It is rather depressing to think or believe that all that this right here, right now is all there is and will ever be. I know for a fact this isn't all there is. Unless, of course, I've been going insane my whole life. :P

Deja vu is just to weird to explain.



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BloodxXxOverDose
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22:17:22 Aug 02 2007
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yes i agree,i believe that with all of our past life experiences we gain wisdom and some kind of knowledge and if we made any mistakes in our past life that sometimes they can be fixed in the current one.
i also feel that karma can go beyond ones past life and follow such individuals until they do what is right.



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Wilder
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22:21:16 Aug 02 2007
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I'm a firm believer in past lives, and also believe that we meet or come across the same people in each life, but obviously in different (for want of a better word) form. ie your daughter in a previous life could be your wife/girlfriend in another.

The 1st regression I had was in my early 20's and seemed extremely real...at the point of my death in that life it felt like I jumped out of my body and viewed my death like I was watching a video of it.

I also believe that we need to go back to previous incarnations in order to be able to move on in our present one.



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Violator78
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22:27:44 Aug 02 2007
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Geez, I must've done something wrong in that one life there. Throat slit. lol Better karma managment is needed here.

Finally a forum that talks about stuff I'm actually interested in.

But yes, past lives are becoming more and more evident the more I live, whether it be through deja vu or dreams...they're there.



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RavenEyes
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22:53:28 Aug 02 2007
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I do believe in past lives. I don't know much about my own past lives, unfortunately.



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Galarond
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22:55:14 Aug 02 2007
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i really dont know, i mean at times i feel deja vu or as if i have had a nother life b4 this but then again theres not alot of grounds for this and and i not sure if these are signs of having a past life, or that i want to have had a previous life



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Carvall
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12:10:21 Aug 03 2007
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I believe in past lives.

The main reason being, I believe in perfect love, which includes justice.

What justice if one child is born to poverty misery etc and one born to wealth and privilege ?



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twilightsmile
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16:39:47 Aug 03 2007
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I believe in past lives. I believe I have had quite of bit of past lives, for the simple fact of memories, flash backs, and dreams I tend to get. Those particular memories,flashbacks, and dreams have nothing to do with my regular life. I believe in past lives quite a bit actually.



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anarchyx16
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19:46:28 Aug 03 2007
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I believe I've had a past life, atleast once if not many times.
I get way too many deja vu incidences that I know never happened before, but somehow felt like it did, and I connect with things way too weird-ly. like my grandmas dog, rosie, i grew up with her but unlike most pets, she never got that jealous thing when i was around, she took care of me like she was my mom, in dog-style. lol. it's hard to explain, but it almost seemed like she was someone i knew in a past life, like i knew her longer than I really did.



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cursedNdrained
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19:50:35 Aug 03 2007
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I believe because of the dreams i've had, and the things that i know.. i'm juist not 16 in this messed up head of mine..


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LordValek
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19:51:32 Aug 03 2007
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i have had many what time period would you like ad or bc



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wolfysnightmare
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19:53:30 Aug 03 2007
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I believe that ive had past lives due to some odd dreams & due to the fact that when im in certain places i get the overwhelming sensation that ive been there before...Ive never been under hypnosis to find out yet, but would really like to 1 of these days



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LordValek
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19:54:42 Aug 03 2007
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i remember mine like yesterday



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KatriannexVeldonxDrakul
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21:23:43 Aug 03 2007
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Through dreams and meditation I have found I have had quite a few past lives. The one which sticks to me the most is a soul from 15th C France. Another is a Civil war wife of a confederate general.



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foerule2007
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21:24:15 Aug 03 2007
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I personally believe in heaven, hell and reincarnation but not as they are most often portrayed. I believe that heaven and hell come as a reward or punishment for the life we lived before the one we live now and that if we were good people in a life then the next life will be heavenly and if we were bad then it will be a living hell. Ive been told that my views are stupid but I thought Id share.



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jigglebewie
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Yesh i do believe in past lifes and reincarnation. But it's really hard to explain to someone what you have experienced. It's really weird when i can remember places i've never been to or things i've said and done that i know i haven't done. Whether that be remembering things from my dreams or just Deja Vu. Also i feel connected with things maybe these thing were connected to my past lives. I dunno but i'd love to learn more on this topic.


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darklass
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22:20:29 Aug 03 2007
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I do believe in past life but i can not say that i have had any as i do not remember. I know a few people who have had past lives and can talk about them in great detail.



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menerfecious
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22:23:04 Aug 03 2007
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I have had too many past lives to talk about. But I will say that I was an ancient egyptian warrior, i was a warrior who wore black spikey armour in the dark ages and I was something like a black wolf in the 14th/15th century.



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ashley25
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06:13:02 Aug 04 2007
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i beleive because i have seen things in my life that at the time was so surspose to be new to me but it was not it was like i have seen and that before



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drak47
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08:04:17 Aug 04 2007
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i believe it happened to me i kept having this same dream time after time that i was at a fire and all the fireman was in black helmets and overcoats i have no time period but it was always the same dream time after time



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cryingmoon
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13:51:17 Aug 04 2007
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i belive i lived in paris in the victorian ages, and was a mid wife i dream sometimes of helping a woman and shes talking in french and i talk in french but i dont no what i am saying and i can rember the area and everything



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SamhainSoldier
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16:42:39 Aug 04 2007
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i totally believe its real,i had a past life regression a couple years ago,it was very vivid experience like it was really happening at the time.i heard somewhere that a birthmark on your body is the mark of what caused your death in your previous life,what does everyone think of that?



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Cinnamon
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17:29:42 Aug 04 2007
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I'm a firm believer in past lives. I feel drawn to certain times and sometimes the things I like are complete contradictions. I've never had a past life regression, but I'd really like to try it sometime.

I don't think that deja vu has anything to do with past lives. It think it's more of an extrasensory perception thing (ESP). *shrugs* I have been known to be wrong. lol


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Cleo
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05:14:00 Aug 05 2007
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Since I have a facination with ancient egyptian things I am sure I was egyptian in a past life...My luck a slave...ha ha



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TheCryingDutchess
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05:23:24 Aug 05 2007
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I have had numerous experiences where I was in an unfamiliar place but knew ev ery little nook. Or I would recognize people I knew I couldn't possibly know. It usedto freak me out. It doesnt happen like it used to now. I think I have shut myself off to being so receptive.



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TwilightWhispers
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08:31:17 Aug 05 2007
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I believe in past live and that I have had a few, I get that feeling been here done that before but only I just got here or when I first meet someone and have that feeling have I met you somewhere else before and you click just like that, so I believe in them..



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TheBlackDeath
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13:17:09 Aug 05 2007
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For the human being,the deepest mystery is death.Considering reincarnation as a physical and spiritual reality,believing that,after death,our soul borrows a new body,this is a prevalent belief.Reincarnation's theories are based upon experiments like the one mentioned by Menerfecious: memories from previous lives,regressive hypnosis,and so on.
Orpheus,Pitagora,Platon,some kabbalists have talked explicitly about reincarnation.They used to do it in a philosophic way.In Tibet,where the belief in reincarnation is the essence of the dogma,this has two dimensions: an esoteric and an exoteric dimension.Their Book of the Dead,Bardo Thodol,it reports on the esteric dimension.
I must apologize now for my very bad English and recognize that I am also tempted to believe in reincarnation and past lives,like most of you.



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Carvall
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13:35:50 Aug 05 2007
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menerfecious > Would you say that having conscious recall of your past lives has any kind of effect on how you live this one ?



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thegothprincess
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14:53:23 Aug 05 2007
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great subject i was once in place in wurope where i actually felt that i had lived their before i could describe rooms and places so yes i do belive in past lives have lts of dejavu



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Rickster0
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18:32:30 Aug 05 2007
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i had dreams ive been there before and a few months go by i am there and remember i had a dream like that



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kalonaagiya
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18:49:14 Aug 05 2007
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I believe that when you die your “soul” goes back to a (for a better term) Oneness. Those souls that have gathered much knowledge, become strong and gained at least some enlightenment are more able to remain intact. Much like trying to mix oil in vinegar. So when a child is born what ever spiritual energy is around it is given to the child. If it is one of these souls then there are memories and experiences. I also think that is why we feel animal spirits with in us.

Now this all makes sense in pictures in my head and I am not sure if I explained it right.



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Tzaddi
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19:28:03 Aug 05 2007
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I believe I have had past lives. The reason is that I have some vivid memories of places and things I have never been in touch with in this lifetime. I get a lot of de ja vu about a lot of things. I find that reincarnation is the only explanation.



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wildwolf
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20:49:47 Aug 05 2007
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I believe it from dreams I have had, places that I have been, and things that I instinctively know



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DarkFallenAngelOfSinJas
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21:18:44 Aug 05 2007
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Well I believe in reincarnation so yes i firmly belive in past lives....



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XoXelizabethXoX
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21:59:34 Aug 05 2007
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I believe in people living once before and reincarnation. Because I have alot of friends who say they have memories which they can't claim as their own, so we think they lived in a past live before. And myself, I have once experienced a flashback to something that did not for sure happen in my life, it was set in somewhere in Egypt, or somewhere with alot of deserts and it was very hot, all I remember is that I was being carried and then I came back to reality and my friends were like, saying I just collapsed. It was wierd. before I had the memory every thing went black and I saw a bright blue light, and it kinda scared me. So I believe it's possible to have had lived once before and some people have a strong connection and thus remember moments in the past life.



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menerfecious
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22:06:18 Aug 05 2007
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Carvall.

In answer to your question. Many of my past lives have had swords in them. I have an infatuation with swords and other bladed weapons, so much so that I even did some martial weapons training when i was about 21.

I do believe that the knowledge of my past lives and the sort of thing I did in them has certainly found a way into my present life. I could give lots of examples, but the one i find most prominent is my enfatuation with bladed weapons and my infatuatuins with ancient egyptian life.



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TheNyteWalker
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22:15:37 Aug 05 2007
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Good question. I have never done the hypnotic regression thing, but I do have memories/dreams that point to the idea of past lives. Either I know the people but not the place, or I know the place but not the people. It's like information hasn't been sorted out correctly. Very weird, but vivid.



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Carvall
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22:49:36 Aug 05 2007
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menerfecious

Staying with the swords example > would you say that your time as a 'fighter' and of necessity being violent has served to show you now the way of 'peace' ?



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hisdarkestdream
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23:24:58 Aug 05 2007
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I believe I've lived past lives before because sometimes I know things that I've never learned or what not. Like I lived before and was taught it then. Or witnessed it. Or something like that.



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menerfecious
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00:12:21 Aug 06 2007
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Carvall, most definately, i am not much of a fighter now, i prefer to keep my skills with a sword low key. But i will say that if I am forced into a corner, the knowledge i have from my past lives seems to help me win most battles i come across.



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deathtoall
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01:42:51 Aug 06 2007
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yes I do because of the things I remembere doing and the places I've seen but not been there in this life.



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DarkAnne
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01:47:25 Aug 06 2007
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I wish I had the money to do that.

I have always wanted to find out what I was in my past life.



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LordValek
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03:11:23 Aug 06 2007
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to crying moon you was in the victorian ages



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sorcerus0728
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05:49:45 Aug 06 2007
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i whole heartedly believe in past lives i myself fully believe i had past lives i have dreams even when im awake flashbacks of things that have happen to me and not in this life. I have had dreams that i had many children and i lived way back before much of wat is now was non existant and i have dreams bout different time periods and its so clear and so there when i wake up i can tell u every detail i say this cuz some wake up and never remember wat they are dreaming i will have repeated dreams i can wake up and go back to sleep and it just continues and feelings i get all the time there are a few people i feel truly feel like i have known my whole life if only i knew it would be neat to see how i lived in another time



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Carvall
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12:37:24 Aug 06 2007
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Once when I hated the idea of reincarntion and just didn't want to believe it, I was advised to ask in prayer/meditation just one question....

If I have lived before show me.....I saw a vivid picture of a man coming out of a cave with a bowl....good job I was lying down as I was just not expecting anything.



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Rayn
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12:43:24 Aug 06 2007
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I believe in past lives but I do not believe I have ever been reincarnated though.



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suavevamp
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13:36:01 Aug 06 2007
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i have posted a similar thread my self on the same subject a while back.so i,m not going into detail of mine again.but yes,past lives do happen,i have knowledge of only one though.but there are people here who have had many.past lives/old souls exist.



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vida
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14:00:24 Aug 06 2007
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i think we all have em but i havw not experience it



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LadyBloodMoon
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15:12:26 Aug 06 2007
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I believe i have atleast once, I have had really intense dreams about it, I was a witch, I even awoke from one of these dreams went to the bathroom, and looked in the mirror and saw myself as i was in the dream.



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Li
Li
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22:49:40 Aug 06 2007
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I've never had a past life regression session, but I would love to. I really feel like I've lived before. I think that we all...recycle? lol If we screw up one life or don't do something that we're supposed to, we come back until we get it right. That's reincarnation. So, yes, I believe in past lives. I'd really like to know more about mine. I'd mostly like to know how many I've had.

One thing, I think we come back as the same sex...and species. Do you guys agree or do you think we can come back as different sexes or different species?



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DarK4EveR
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22:51:45 Aug 06 2007
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I really don't know if I believe it or not. I've never gone under any kind of hypnotism like you did, but I do notice I have a lot of dejavu.. so I don't know if that has anything to do with it.. it's an interesting topic though!



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menerfecious
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22:54:24 Aug 06 2007
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Theta

I have to say that i was a black wolf in one life and have been a woman in another of my past lives. So there in itself is my answer. Yes you can indeed come back as other sexes and/or other creatures. I also believe that we can come back as plantlife as they have life and therefore must have a soul.

Mener



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darknessgalore
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00:07:20 Aug 07 2007
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i have read many thing about past lives in news papers and magazines but not myself.



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Carvall
Carvall

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12:46:19 Aug 08 2007
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menerfecious

So would you say that physical and spiritual evolvement go hand in hand ?



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Emeleth
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13:33:30 Aug 08 2007
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It all comes down to the fact that you will either have some sort of experience that make you feel you have remembered past lives (or life) and you will believe. Or else yuo will never simply disbelieve because you never open your mind to see what else might be there. For anyone to be on a site like VR and have uch a closed mind seems paradoxical, but whatever... Some people may just never have lived before as a human and that' why they don't remember.



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xStarGirrlx
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14:52:58 Aug 08 2007
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My grandma used to go this psychic all the time.
She told my grandma that I was Victorian royalty or something.
My family has always told me that I'm an old soul.
I believe that once you die,
your soul goes somewhere else
and carries out it's life.
Unless of course, your time isn't over,
then you probably stay in the place
that you haven't finished in.
That's why hauntings happen, I think.



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TheHellequin
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15:26:52 Aug 08 2007
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I don't feel like I have lived before - my outlook on existence is quite fresh I think.

Do I believe in other lives?

Maybe - I once dreamed years ago about loving someone, losing them and then finding them again in a different life.



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lavisbre
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16:35:31 Aug 08 2007
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Iv always had dreams of different ages…. Never put two and two together it normally adds to 8 for me …lol

I don’t like anything around my neck even a polo shirt has me chocking … so I think I was hung last time ….



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MystressDarkAngel
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16:49:24 Aug 08 2007
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I believe I have had past lives. I dream about them a lot really.



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AshNight
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17:20:16 Aug 08 2007
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I've got a few that I am aware of myself.

I was a Canadian male named Zachary who got tortured and beaten to death by some angry mob, due to a richer family's daughter taking her anger out on my lover and I. I had a vivid dream and felt many things that I had felt that night, so I'm quite sure that is one of them.

At one point in time, my lover and I were together in Egypt, and we ended up running away together because it was a forbidden romance; she was of a higher stature than I was.

And I do believe %100 I was on the Titanic...and I don't think I survived. The details are still fuzzy on that one, and I'm almost afraid to find out more.

I forget any others at this point...



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BLOODLIFE
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17:46:54 Aug 08 2007
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You have got to read 'Lady Of Hay' by Barbara Erskine -- its based on fact and gives a real eye opening insight into regression and then some.



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TorturedAndForgotten
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17:50:39 Aug 08 2007
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Past Lives do exist. I'm in the process of understanding more. I am reading and looking into hypnosis. If you have dreams of a past life and the are repetitive. Odds say they are of a previous life.



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Violator78
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18:26:20 Aug 08 2007
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I'm sure that because of a reocurring nightmare that I've had since birth pretty much, that it's a past life memory of a death. I just thought of it now, I don't have it as often as I used to but it's pretty scary. I'm always finding myself in the ocean being attacked by sharks or other vicious, hungry sea creatures. I hate that dream. I always wake up shaking.

I sure dream about sharks alot...could that be a power animal? Kind of off topic...just curious. Maybe I was a shark? lol I dunno.

SamhainSoldier> Birthmarks being a sign of past lives, that is very interesting. I have alot of birth marks. lol



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Panthra
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18:56:36 Aug 08 2007
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i havent met mine yet



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menerfecious
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21:30:23 Aug 08 2007
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Carvall

Yeah i think that I would agree with that, although I have not evolved spiritually in this life (as in being able to contact spirits other than my guide).



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PoeTheWin
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21:41:15 Aug 08 2007
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I don't believe I've had any past lives, since I can't think of any experiences or dreams I've had that would make me think I have. But I think it's possible for people to have had past lives. I've met people who've had them, anyway.



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Carvall
Carvall

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18:39:37 Aug 10 2007
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PoeTheWin

I think the reason most of us don't have access to past life memories, is so we can get on with this life.



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MaraLilithBathory
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18:46:16 Aug 10 2007
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I'm a firm believer on reincarnation. I believe I have had many past lives as I have come across many things and places in this life where I felt I had been there before or experienced something, or even knew alot about a subject I had never heard of. An older couple I know believes that I may have the soul of their daughter who died in utero and treat me as their own, and I feel the same connection to them.



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DerickV616
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19:01:22 Aug 10 2007
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i belive in the possibility to have a past life and a future life but im not shure if i had one myself



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KelsiexXxChaos
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19:19:12 Aug 10 2007
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this is going to be a really long reply for me so i am going to wait til i am more awake lol



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SonicSaberFang
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21:27:37 Aug 10 2007
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i belive it from creepy dreams i have had.



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VR System
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21:27:37 Aug 10 2007
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This thread has been automatically closed for length.



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• • • • THIS THREAD IS CLOSED • • • •
•  Closed by VR System on Aug 10 2007  •

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