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Science and magic are two sides of the same coin. They are both capable of the same things. The only difference between them is that science is artificial and currently has limits. Magic is natural and is beyond limits.

And?

What is it that you want to discuss about this please?

Science is fact based..visual proof.

"Magic" is not..There is no "real" magic.
Illusionist say they perform "Magic" but it is slight of hand and the art of distraction.
Until someone levitates on front of me without the help of camera angles and wires...or they make something appear out of thin air...without pulling it out of their shirt or coat...Magic is not real.

I do magic, but I'm willing to take a stab at debating this.

I don't think that science is necessarily artificial.

Take a look at early astronomical theories, those regarding the movement of the planets, and the backwards and forwards motions they seemed to make. To early civilization, it was magical.... or done by the gods. To science, once they figured out the structure of how things orbit around other bodies out in space, it was perfectly clear.

Look at gravity. Things used to fall to earth because the gods willed it. Then science explained it with gravity.

Look at flight: it was magical, too, for a long while. Then they figured out it's the shape of the wing that creates lift, and the Wright brothers started an age that led to air travel all over the world... But don't you think that ancient people would consider an airplane magical? Or the way that we've turned the wing concept upside down to push our race cars down onto the road?

I do think they're two sides of the same coin, but saying one is artificial and one isn't is something I definitely disagree with...

they are opposites. Science at one time could have been thought of as magic till it was figured out how it was done and why. It is magic with proof. Magic on the other hand doesn't need proof just belief that it is there and it works. But it is only magic till someone figures out how it works and why and shows proof of it then it becomes science. There is no limit to either of them as people are always learning what new sciences are out there.

yes science has limits.. i agree with what DW had said about it

I really never put science and magic in the same category.. never thought of them having similarities

I also disagree that science is not really artificial as all science is also based somehow in nature just the more clinical side of it. I also disagree with saying science has limits as the word limit means there has to be a point where science can go no further but since science is always discovering new things and finding out more and more things all the time there really can be no limit to what science is capable of doing.

I would say that you have your "difference between them" wrong, or at least that isn't the only difference. Science is based on proof, and magic cannot be proven.

Not all of it anyway.But I do believe more has been prooven than many even realise.And to me,thats a good thing.Prooves to me magic is very real.

Oceanne, are you saying that some magic has been proven, or am I misunderstanding you?

In my opinion Science is backed by factual findings that aid in proving or dismissing facts.
Magic takes it's form from those who believe in it's powers so I don't see how they could be on the same page if you will

When I say that science is artificial I mean the technology created because of science that can do things magic can also do. I'm talking moving objects from one place to another without touching them. This is something that can be done through science or mental powers (magic).

Daedal, since I believe that science is more or less a different way of looking at the same forces that enable magic to work,when something is prooven in science,it validates the magic side of it for me as well.So,my answer is yes.
Same thing goes for math.
Just a different way of communicating it.

.
E=MC2... And then, their was light.

One thing I dont believe is that magic is some force composed of nothing but faith.Therefore it just..is.I truely believe science has detected and prooven more of magic than is given credit for.

Having a father who is a scientist... to him, there is only black and white, no grey. Theories are either confirmed or not. He laughs at the thought of the tarot and astrology makes him laugh.

He stated most scientists feel that when we die, the energy dissipates and we are completely and totally gone. No soul, no reincarnation, nothingness.

Talk about from one side to the other!

You will find you will always find predudice like that on anything.Sure,most scientists might be cut and dried,but I also know mages who are the same way.Those are simply variables ,something that will be found on both sides.You always will see that hardliner.Personally,I feel its a baclance.knowing one enables you to see the other and visa versa..perhaps for what it really is.

That last part where you say he says we dissipate,seems a bit of a theology issue ...because I really dont think anyonew REALLY knows what happens.Might have gut feelings and such,but we dont KNOW.I might be wrong there,But none the less,yeh,alot of scientists are like that.

Well,too bad he would feel that way,because Astrology and Tarot are sciences in their own right.

Magic and science...Similar, but totally different.

With science, you can prove something. You prove that
this=this because of that.
With magic, there's no definite answer as to WHY it happens. There's no PROOF. And science is all about proof.

I agree with stabb I really don't see whee the discussion question question is in this thread .

I will say i do think that there maybe small tie between the two .

Back in the early days of since most people thought that it was magic . The first light bulb , gun powder, and the like .
That may be where some of the tie in came from

Think about this. Music can be magical in how it adjusts how you feel. Yet there is a science behind it. Always some pattern some thing that makes it work the way you hear it. It has a bases in both places. Both can in part be seen through a scientific scope but whay does it effect you that way. Music is one of the few things that combine both in many cases. How many times have you felt a burst of energy after hearing a song. Yes you might feel the adrenalin rushing through your body. But why does it effect you in way that cannot be explained?

Music can effect art the same way. They both can if done right blend both worlds. Belief can also lead to that. In the medieval time period what would you think of someone seeing a truly life like painting. Would it be magic to them? Yet if you watch someone paint today you can see how they do it and it would all most seem common place to you. With what can be done with computers.

The Hermetics believe in the magic of science and likewise, the science of magic. The two are intertwined and if one does any study into both, one will see this. Again, I fail to see where the debate is supposed to be. One either believes in one or the other or that both are intertwined.

Although science, logic, facts, viable truths in this world can be invaluable it does have its downfalls too. There is no room for faith in science.
Magick is the only real "magic." It is a science in and of itself. A time tried, tested, and proven ability. Magick has been performed for centuries and works--if it didnt there would be no reason for people to continue practicing. The difference if it relies on faith as one of many aspects to perform correctly.

Well now you are getting more into ethics than "science" itself. Science itself is cold, unwavering, facts that can be proven.

Ok granted not all scientific theories are proven. And some guesses have to be made to find the facts.
But a scientist wants to "see" to believe a truth. In magick, you must often believe before you can see. So magick would leave a great deal of room for faith in its midst than science would it not?

w/o belief

"Think about this. Music can be magical in how it adjusts how you feel. Yet there is a science behind it. Always some pattern some thing that makes it work the way you hear it. It has a bases in both places. Both can in part be seen through a scientific scope but whay does it effect you that way. Music is one of the few things that combine both in many cases. How many times have you felt a burst of energy after hearing a song. Yes you might feel the adrenalin rushing through your body. But why does it effect you in way that cannot be explained?"

Actually,it can be explained Law,but what a great analogy.
When it comes to music,or sound..I know,I know you are prooly all tired of my saying this in almost every thread,but Im going to once again..Sound,material or otherwise is the voice of the Universe..it finds itself in everything and everywhere.Science magic math..its everywhere.Know the secrets of it,you will know more than you could ever dream.

Science shows us proof on how something works and will explain it.

Magic is things that happen that are unexplained

I would be more inclined to call the unexplained superstition, not magic.

as far as Im concerned,magic isnt really unexplained.It is explained in math,in science and most of all,vibration or sound.Thats just my own feeling on it tho.

Here,I found this.It is a perfect example of what I am talking about.
http://www.kacha-stones.com/science_or_magic.htm

I feel that magic is spiritual and science is factual. It is hard to put the two in the same category. Science is about proving things to be true. Magic just is. How can you prove magic to be real maybe there is no way. Magic does exist however it is not as most people view it to be. Its not all about flying or having things appear. It is about finding a spiritual wellness with in oneself.

So really,the spirit thing is pretty much the only aspect that separates it form science..at least as far as I can tell.

I personally believe Science over magic any day simply because I'm a fact-oriented person. I tend to believe things if there's facts to back it up over blind faith... That's why I'm not religious really.

Much of what we can explain now as science was explained by the supernatural in history. Magic and the paranormal are often just blanket terms for things which have YET to be embraced by the scientific community

Science is about proving one aspect of the unnatural. it takes previous beliefs and turns them so that people can have different pieces. Magic is made up there is no proof it exists bcuz all we see are tricks that are played with our minds not true "magic"

Magic always has science behind it. For example, Illusionists do "magic" you see the final "magickal" product, but you don't see the tact and science it takes to produce said "magic"

I don't think science really has limits. There is much to learn in the Universe and science a method of learning.

i think science and magick have alway been in compition with each other in some form of way when magic is learned and studied yyou can do anything once you master it science is always trying to prove the magic is science and yet they still have no real cure for aids or cancer or hepititis etc: but with indian folklore you can cure anything with magical herbs....

I dont know if I would put science and magic in the same category

Magick is the alleged art and science of causing change in accordance with the will by non-physical means.

I think science and magick go together.

I would have to agree with what Bathorybabe said earlier re magic becoming science when proven as fact.

So is this magic or science?

To look at it without knowing how it was produced,one would say magic..no sound ,so strings..but no,its simply the magic of an energy that is here and always has been.

Call me confused, but I don't see a question here. Is it about the difference or similarity between magic and science? Both have their place in the cosmos I suppose, but are they truly alike? I dunno...

Rev. Ravyn

very well put , its a science, that still today s trying to be mapped out

I believe everything can be explained through science. Those who cannot explain something with science explain it by claiming it's magic.

but who says magic is real?

Science and magic to me are two completely different things. Yes both takes lots of practice to accomplish but science is proven to everyone, there is theory to back it up. Magic unfortunately doesn't have that.

I believe that science and magic are different. Science is acquired knowledge based on the study and development of theories or hypotheses, of which, not all are correct and are corrected with further study. Magic is the control or influence over events and physical objects with scientific means. It only seems magical because you do not understand the process to achieve the correct results.

MisfitChild - who says magic isn't?

Science is based off empirical teachings, measurements and observations as some has hinted at. It can be used to measure and test magic and the metaphysical.

Magic especially in ancient Arabic, Egyptian and Chinese all used formulas, standards of measure and recorded observations to refine and teach their craft. Just as modern scientists do today to create new technology.

I feel ‘Technology’ is modern day magic and science can be and has been used to measure, observe and test both even before science had a name.

Very well put AD..

TheDarkWolf, your wrong. I very realy will say out right that some one is wrong but you are in this case. magic takes many forms even some that you may not see as magic but its still there and it still exist.

As a witch and a scientist I find that both magick and science are highly codified with their own theories and laws under which they operate. The problem is main stream science has not developed the technology to measure and understand magick's effects by some version of the scientific method and currently it is thought of as a fringe area only dealt with by faithful lunatics. More importantly no fund granting agency would touch it so there is no "monetary" incentive to examine it and incorporate it into main stream science.

Was wondering if you where going to see this thread PW. :)

Also pop culture continues to spin magic in an entertaining direction and does not use it in a more serious refined manner. In order for magic to get the needed funding all the hocus-pocus would need to be removed from it and people would need to start viewing it seriously.

ok, i thought that in these forums, you were s'post to present a question, not a statement.

^^

science is a idear on how something works and you try to prove it...

craft or magic you dont know how it works and have no need to prove it

lol

"Also pop culture continues to spin magic in an entertaining direction and does not use it in a more serious refined manner. In order for magic to get the needed funding all the hocus-pocus would need to be removed from it and people would need to start viewing it seriously."

Very well put!

For your reading pleasure...

http://www.starstuffs.com/physcon2/shamanism.html

And if your interested ,Dr Nina Snaith has some very interesting things to say about his.

Science is perfect.....magic is....a belief

magic is far from belief, although you have to have strong beliefs to channel energies to enpower your magics but there is lots of science that goes with it.

you may want to read through the chemisty and physics threads to see how magic and science work hand in hand

Also,if you go to the archives read the thread The nature of magick

The Science of today was the magic of yesterday.Example Alchamy.Just my opinion.
KA

I agree with fyrechild. I wouldn't put them anywhere close to eachother.

science is just the study of natural things I thought

BDR -

I believe it is.

I think they are similar.

1024-

How so?

Science and magick are both the study of nature from different perspectives.

Exactly PW.

As usual there are a lot of assumptions - at least some of them wrong - in this thread.

So, some believe science and magic can be considered comparable.

Implicitly this would, not only suggest, but require magic to be intersubjectivly usable. Is it? Can anyone of you describe just one magic experiment, which will reproduce exactly the same results wherever it is undertaken, by anyone and anytime?
Because that's what science does. Any thing else isn't science ... even if some believe so.
Since I sincerely doubt that anyone can name such an experiment, I would suggest not puttiong science and magic on the same coin...

SarraS you also have to look at that what is unexplained is often put in the realm of "magic". When I would argue that it is merely unexplained.

As for science being perfect, don't kid yourself. Theories are constantly proven and disproven. Even with perfect controls you cannot always duplicate the experiments.

Mr.Sock I'm surprised you left out Galileo, who was killed for saying the earth was round, when any sensible person at the time would have told you it was known FACT that it was flat.

I agree magic is natural but science may have limits just not on everything

Fascinating subject matter

I think we are going to play this same topic like a skipping record

First,I would really like to make something clear here ..number one,not every aspect is going to be the same.Riding a ponie might be doen in many different styles,but its still riding a ponie.Two,what I have proposed is not the experiments that are duplicated over and over again,but more simply, that some scientific explainations describe energies that a magick practitioner accesses..And so yes,in that,they are two different set of eyes looking att he same thing.

In other words when a practitioner does a ritual or whatever..in some cases thinks a thought and it happens,they are not getting that from some crazy supernatural spook force or some new thing that is coming to manifest just for the sake of them.What they have ended up doing ,is getting into an energy that is already in place,one that is as real as you and I,as a part of our universe and they are manipulating it somehow.Science gives us the oppertunity to put that energy into a language that is coherent to all..and to see it at work in its natural state at times.whether it be math,quantums or whatever.I dont care how you talk about it..its still the same stuff.

I have worded this 100 ways,I dont know how else to put it..so,I guess Im done for now.

Word it in a different language? =P

Я думаю, что есть очень много подобий. Больше чем один мог бы вообразить.

яркая идея nm.:)

There is a great book out there that some of you would like to read.
It's called What the bleep do we know?
By William Arntz , Betsy Chasse ,Mark Vicente
An easy read

I will second that..but I've seen the film,not read the book.

i'm all for science. but i still do magic. i guess you can say i'm a multi-belief person. just... screw christianity.

I think alot of us here are a little of both..

the bace of magic is the belief in it. if you done believe in it. it will not work at all.

same goes for everything we do

Believing in magic doesnt mean one cannot believe in science..and visa/versa.

Its all from a point of view really..

Some religions such as Jehovah's witness done believe in Doctors as its magic and only god can heal them. Many other religious secs think this way as well.

Magic and Science are some times one int he same while other times ether are too far out side of the box to even be thought of.

What some today see as Magic tomorrow may be Scinece and vis versa. As technologies advance many thing shift back and forth.

Look at medical science, Look back ten to twenty years the things we are capable of today were just thoughts and dreams back then, yet we have gone back to some of the med evil ways of doing things. We have gon back to using leaches and maggots to clean blood and wounds.. If you had asked a doctor about that five or ten years ago they would have looked at you like you have three heads and said that they don't use arcaic witch craft they use medical scinece..

Oceanne - I agree and expand that one needs to have a bit of understanding of science to understand magick since they go hand in hand with each other.

Chaos Theory is scientific, chaos magick speaks for itself. Is there any real difference between the two.....well chaos theory states that anything is possible and that everything is relative yet nothing is certain. Chaos magick is born from those simple principles.

So, in some ways science and magick are the same.

Another example is alchemy.

Not too long ago in our worlds history, alchemists were seen to be users of magick, yet in our present time, chemists make drugs that are specifically designed to do a pecific job.

Is the subject of physics simply another way to investigate the laws of nature that were set out by some of the most brilliant alchemists of all time.

Dr John Dee would have said yes. Notice that Mr Dee is now classed as a Doctor, yet when he was executed he was classed as a witch.

I have posted on this before.. but with more thought I just want to say not all science is artificial. Think of the process that rust occurs.. natural oxidation.. so yes some science is as natural as magic

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